IRC log of #zope3-dev for Thursday, 2005-07-21

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bob2srichter: where can I see a list of remaining bugs?03:46
bob2and do they all require a zope god to fix?03:46
srichterno, there are some simple ones03:48
srichteralso, we can skip those that already exist in 3.003:49
srichterso if you can determine that the bug is also in Z3.0, then tell me and I lower its urgency03:49
srichterbob2: there are a couple more new bugs in the collector that need attention03:50
srichterbut some are as simple as applying a patch03:50
bob2is everything in TODO.txt important?03:53
bob2e.g. messageboard doesn't work03:53
srichteryes, because Zope 3.1 must be compatible with 3.003:58
bob2ahh, of course03:58
srichterso if the messageboard is broken, then some compatibility is not there03:58
bob2hm, it'd be handy if people included test cases04:04
bob2srichter: re: 307, should zope just fail to run at all?04:19
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bob2srichter: 336 is already fixed04:24
bob2none have patches, unfortunately04:37
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jcnormanIs anyone working on TTW facilities?05:39
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bob2how mature is the twisted integration branch?14:48
srichterbob2: it works well14:49
srichterbob2: however, this is definitely not the form it will enter the trunk14:49
bob2is it's ftp server more...reliable than zope's own?14:49
srichterJim gave me some other requirements later that will make me change th edesign a bit14:50
srichterwell, the FTP code in twisted is also pretty new14:50
bob2does it look like a 3.2 timeframe?14:50
srichterbut I trust itamar that he did a good job :-)14:50
srichtertwisted will be in 3.2, yes14:50
bob2ah, btw, issue 336 claims to be fixed in trunk, but's still listed in TODO.txt14:51
srichterok, so it can be removed from TODO.txt14:51
bob2cool, but only one of us has commit access ;p14:51
srichterthen shoot me an E-mail, so I won't forget14:52
bob2will do14:52
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srichtermkerrin: so you are coming to Tuebingen?15:54
srichterGreat! :-)15:55
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mkerrinsrichter: yipe - looked too intereseting not to go15:56
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srichtermkerrin: :-) So I definitely won't do the Twisted stuff before then15:57
srichtermkerrin: Jim communicated some ideas to me; especially he wants to be able to run bosth zserver and twisted; so we have to change our design a bit15:58
srichterbut it should not be as hard as it sounds at first15:58
mkerrinthat shouldn't be too bad16:01
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srichterJ1m: are you guys using JaWE to create new process definitions?18:33
srichterfor small workflows it seems almost easier to develop them in Python or do you write XPDL by hand?18:33
J1mYes, we use Jawe18:41
J1mFor complex workflows, I often find it easier to edit them my hand,18:42
J1mjawe has a fairly primitive UI that tends to require lots of clicking18:42
srichteryeah, I noticed that today and it requires some formal overhead that you do not have in the python version18:42
srichterlike package management18:42
J1mThis is made worse by the fact that it all of it's windows/dialogs are model within Jawe.18:43
srichterso I guess I'll write XPDL by hand18:43
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J1mDon't get me wrong18:47
J1mI certainly author with Jawe.18:47
J1mI wouldn't want to have to write that many pointy brackets by hand.18:47
srichterwhat version do you use?18:49
srichterI just installed 1.4.2 and it does not look like the version I had installed before, which seemed more intuitive18:50
srichtermmh, I have to study it some more then18:50
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srichterJ1m: do I have to do something special to be able to define new workflow processes?20:14
srichterok, never mind20:15
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SteveAJ1m: i would like to ask you a question about requests and get/setTraversalStack and getURL21:05
SteveAif I have a traverser that removes an item from the traversal stack (because it wants to take account of more than one traversal step)21:05
SteveAit can do so using getTraversalStack to get the list of remaining traversal steps, and then pop a name, and then use setTraversalStack to set the new remaining traversal steps21:06
SteveAhowever, _traversed_names in BaseRequest is not updated21:07
SteveAso _traversed_names does not contain the name that was removed from the traversal stack.21:07
SteveAgetURL uses _traversed_names to say what the URL is21:08
SteveAso calling getURL() gets a url that misses out the step that was removed from the traversal stack.21:08
SteveAI think the right thing to do, concerning the state held by the request, is to append the missing step to the _traversed_names as i remove it from the traversal stack21:13
SteveApractically, it seems to me that we could have three operations on IPublicationRequest: getTraversalStack, setTraversalStack and nameWasTraversed21:14
SteveAor, there could be a slightly more abstract API on IPublicationRequest that keeps the internal state of the request consistent.21:15
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J1m1: why do you have to call setTraversalStack?21:34
J1mIf you pop an item, doesn't that just mutate it?21:34
J1m2. Perhaps the travseral stack should update traversed names as they are popped.21:34
SteveAcurrently in the code, getTraversalStack gives you a copy of the list that is the internal stack21:35
SteveAyou can do all sorts of bizarre things with the traversal stack21:36
SteveAfor example, changing it for something entirely different than it was21:36
SteveArather than just popping off a few items21:36
SteveAthere's a separate facility for adding extra traversal steps to the end of the path21:36
SteveAthat doesn't involve the traversal stack21:37
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SteveAperhaps this facility is too flexible21:37
srichterJ1m: it seems that WfMC does not allow circular flows; why? For example, in the review process, if the editor rejects a publication, it could easily return to the review or author activity.21:38
SteveAso, if the traversal stack was exposed with the interface of a stack21:39
SteveAthat would account for both use-cases21:39
SteveAyou could pop from the stack, which implies adding a name to _traversed_names21:39
SteveAand you can push onto the stack21:39
SteveAwhich accounts for that other API21:40
SteveAWhat are the requirements for backwards compatibility for chaning the traversal stack code?21:40
J1mwhat other API?21:42
J1msrichter, WFMC certainly allows circular flows.21:43
srichtermmh, it did not let me model that in JaWE21:43
J1msrichter, there is an example in the tests.21:43
J1mIt let me model it. :)21:44
srichtermh, did you use simple transitions?21:44
SteveAJ1m: the other API is setPathSuffix21:45
srichtermmh, the first activity cannot be referred back to for some reason21:45
SteveA"Extra traversal steps after normal traversal"21:45
SteveAthese won't be reflected in getURL either21:46
SteveAi don't know what setPathSuffix is practically used for21:46
J1mMe neither21:46
J1mis it called?21:46
SteveAby the xmlrpc request21:48
J1mHm, interesting21:48
J1mI imagine that getURL is irrelevent for xmlrpc.21:49
SteveAand by the method: or action: magic prefixes in the form handling code of requests21:49
SteveAbut, i personally dislike method: and action:21:49
SteveAor is it :action and :method21:50
SteveAi forget21:50
J1mI would say they are obsolete.21:50
J1mI'd be happy to see them deprecated.21:50
SteveAso, setPathSuffix can be deprecated21:50
J1mas far as backward compatibility.21:51
J1mas far as backward compatibility:21:51
SteveAand the XMLRPCRequest can directly use its members21:51
SteveArather than using setPathSuffix21:51
J1mwe have to be backward compatible for a period of time, as indicated by the deprecation warnings.21:51
SteveAwhat i would like to do is to deprecate getTraversalStack and setTraversalStack21:52
SteveAand replace that with a public attribute/property traversal_stack21:52
SteveAthat provides ITraversalStack21:52
SteveAhaving push and pop methods21:53
SteveAum, operations21:53
SteveAand deprecate setPathSuffix21:53
J1mok w me. I doubt many people are using these.21:53
J1mA proposal would be in order.21:53
J1mAnd this shouldn't happen until the 3.1 branch is made.21:53
SteveAwhen is that?21:54
J1mask srichter21:54
J1mI hope soon :)21:54
J1mWe need to get a bunch of bugs fixed.21:54
J1mHe won't let us check in new features until we get the bugs fixed.21:55
J1mWhich is, of course, understandable.21:55
SteveAoh, releasing from the trunk21:55
SteveAnot releasing from a branch tagged from the trunk21:55
J1mThat's not ho I would do it, but I'm not in charge and I understand his reasons.21:56
SteveAokay.  well, i'll get a proposal done, and implement this for launchpad now.21:56
J1mThat's not how I would do it, but I'm not in charge and I understand his reasons.21:56
SteveAwhen i get the goahead from srichter i'll look at porting the launchpad changes to zope.21:56
srichterSteveA: let me know when you are ready to do your stuff, and I'll cut the branch and write the necessary messages21:58
SteveAsrichter: i will be able to write the proposal over the next couple of weeks.  the launchpad team are in brazil writing specs, so i'm sure i can fit this one in.21:59
srichterok, I don't want to hijack the trunk any longer either; though the block has not animated people to fix bugs or at least evaluate them :-(22:00
SteveAbug days are good22:00
srichteryeah, maybe we should have one22:01
srichtercould I have the support from some of the cannonical/ST guys?22:01
SteveAyou can ask the ST guys.  that's tom hoffman's call.22:02
srichterwhat from you guys (canonical)?22:02
SteveAi can ask about canonical, but we're all booked up for the next 3 weeks22:02
SteveAwriting specs in brazil22:03
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srichterJ1m: how does your (as in ZC Zope 3 team) schedule look like? Up for a bug day?22:05
J1mdon't know.22:05
srichterI think some of those bugs need more discussion than actual fixing; I think we can slash off half of the bugs by saying: They were already around in Zope 3.022:07
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SteveAsrichter: i urge you to consider time-based releases22:24
J1mSteveA, we've decided on time-based releases22:25
J1mStarting with 3.2 in december.22:25
J1m3.2 will be feature frozen Nov 1.22:25
SteveAi really need to catch up with the zope3 list22:25
mgedminhopefully 3.1 will be released before that22:33
* mgedmin ducks22:33
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srichtermgedmin: me too22:52
srichtermgedmin: I am hoping that Tom and Mark will agree for you (the ST guys) to help out with a bug day22:52
SteveAsrichter: schooltool's funding is focused specifically on doing work that directly benefits schools22:59
SteveAso i doubt that the shuttleworth foundation will fund work on a zope3 bug day22:59
srichterI can only try23:00
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srichterI'll set up a bug day and hope that people will show up ;-)23:01
mgedminsrichter, do you have a date in mind?23:02
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srichtermgedmin: no, but what about next Tuesday?23:03
srichteror is a Friday better?23:03
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mgedminsrichter, Friday might be better23:08
srichterok, so I'll make announcement for next Friday23:08
mgedminI think we're releasing a release candidate of SchoolTool on Tuesday23:08
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srichterJ1m: do you mind, if I give zope.wfmc.process.[ActivityDefinition|TransitionDefinition] a __repr__?23:15
srichterok, good23:20
srichterI'll do that then, since it benefits my testing23:20
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srichterI like zope.wfmc more and more by the minute; I hope it will be easy to hook up the applications to the model as well ;-)23:53
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