| benji_york | bye all | 00:22 |
|---|---|---|
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| theuni | SteveA: actually i'm pretty glad that ++skin++ seems to be only possible one time per traversal | 00:27 |
| theuni | therefore a sensible apache with mod_proxy in front of it, takes that off. | 00:27 |
| SteveA | kill ++skin++ | 00:27 |
| * theuni gets weapons. Lots of weapons. | 00:27 | |
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| philiKON | srichter, do you wanna do that zodb merge, since you're going to do the release nayway... | 00:30 |
| srichter | it's just replaceing the svn:externals, yes? | 00:31 |
| philiKON | yes | 00:31 |
| philiKON | as tim said, a simple merge | 00:31 |
| srichter | I am only doing this for the 3.1 branch. | 00:34 |
| theuni | does that mean that blobs are finally be somewhere to be used? | 00:34 |
| theuni | .oO(ignore the bad syntax of that sentence) | 00:34 |
| philiKON | srichter, yes please | 00:35 |
| philiKON | theuni, is the blob branch already merged to the zodb trunk?!? | 00:35 |
| srichter | Done | 00:35 |
| philiKON | cool, thanks | 00:36 |
| theuni | hmm | 00:36 |
| theuni | i just notice it isn't | 00:36 |
| * theuni shuts up | 00:36 | |
| theuni | i think that will happen at the small sprint at the dzug meeting in september then | 00:36 |
| philiKON | would be cool | 00:37 |
| philiKON | theuni, srichter and i were talking about moving zope 3.1 to a new zodb tag | 00:37 |
| philiKON | not merging anything inside zodb | 00:37 |
| theuni | sure. i just noticed that the blob stuff needs to land some day. :) | 00:43 |
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| theuni | and likely i have to do some work for that | 00:43 |
| philiKON | you betcha | 00:43 |
| philiKON | :) | 00:43 |
| srichter | Jim put blobs on his list for 3.2 | 00:43 |
| MrTopf | *fighting with Five* ;-) | 00:43 |
| philiKON | ALL: are bugdays usually preferred to be held on fridays or would a wednesday be ok as well? | 00:43 |
| MrTopf | it's all still a bit unfamiliar .. | 00:44 |
| srichter | he really wants to improve the WSGI support and use blobs for large data | 00:44 |
| philiKON | srichter, .oO Fulton's List | 00:44 |
| MrTopf | *winning* :-) | 00:44 |
| srichter | philiKON: friday seems to be preferred by commercial people, though for me any weekday is fine | 00:44 |
| philiKON | note that i'm asking for a X3 3.0 bugday to make a (maybe final) X3 3.0.2 release | 00:45 |
| * MrTopf just wrote an RSS view for SimpleBlog as little exercise | 00:45 | |
| philiKON | possible date: august 17 | 00:45 |
| bobessutio | is zope3 slower or faster than zope2? | 00:46 |
| srichter | philiKON: do we need one that early? | 00:46 |
| MrTopf | bobessutio: I don't think you can answer that in general. Probably depends very much on the application. | 00:47 |
| MrTopf | bobessutio: and I think not that many benchmarks have been made yet. but I don't know | 00:47 |
| MrTopf | <-- z3 newbie :-) | 00:47 |
| philiKON | srichter, well, the farther we push this away, the more work we'll ahve to do | 00:47 |
| bobessutio | MrTopf: ok, that is what i thought. | 00:47 |
| srichter | August 17 is fine with me; feel free to send a message | 00:48 |
| MrTopf | e.g. you cannot really compare a Plone site to a Z3 site as there is nothing yet like Plone for Z3 | 00:48 |
| MrTopf | (I would be interested in benchmarks, though) | 00:48 |
| srichter | I think part of my ST work will be to build a profiler | 00:49 |
| srichter | as a utility | 00:50 |
| srichter | so you can optimize in devmode | 00:50 |
| MrTopf | cool | 00:50 |
| MrTopf | with events it might also be easier to cache stuff as it's more likely that you get to know when things change | 00:51 |
| MrTopf | so it might be easier to make sites faster | 00:51 |
| philiKON | i bet a lot of time will be spent in zope.interface.adapter.AdapterLookup.lookup1 :) | 00:51 |
| MrTopf | probably | 00:51 |
| MrTopf | hope this is fast ;-) | 00:51 |
| philiKON | alienoid is rewriting it in C to make it even faster :) | 00:52 |
| srichter | yes, it is by far the most used call | 00:52 |
| MrTopf | just detected "Syndizierung" as german translation for Syndication in Plone... | 00:52 |
| philiKON | of course, soon we'll be rewriting C code in Python just to have it optimized by PyPy | 00:53 |
| MrTopf | of course | 00:54 |
| philiKON | by the way, i once complained in front of holger krekel how sucky Javascript was | 00:54 |
| philiKON | he just said: yeah, just write a JS backend for PyPy and you can run Python in your browser :) | 00:55 |
| * philiKON wonders how many pystones you would bet in JSPython *grin* | 00:55 | |
| philiKON | s/bet/get/ | 00:55 |
| srichter | I wonder whether it would be possible at all | 00:56 |
| srichter | I almost doubt it | 00:56 |
| philiKON | i think it'd be possible, but also a bit crazy :) | 00:58 |
| MrTopf | so after your test you know what you have to do ;-) | 01:03 |
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| gintas | philiKON, it might be easier to write an LLVM interpreter in JS and then use that | 01:07 |
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| gintas | the result would probably have to be measured by pypebbles | 01:08 |
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| theuni | btw: i just noticed that in large-scale setups i like the behaviour of zope3 better, which opens network ports after configuring and starting everything else | 01:10 |
| theuni | whereas on developer machines i like it more when it opens the ports first | 01:10 |
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| philiKON | gintas, :) | 01:48 |
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| zagy | moin | 09:01 |
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| alienoid | hello | 10:56 |
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| bob2 | it seems like zope3 should have it's own section on the website | 11:50 |
| bob2 | rather than hiding away as a development thing | 11:51 |
| mexiKON | yes | 11:51 |
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| MrTopf | hi mexiKON, faassen | 12:15 |
| MrTopf | hi bob2 | 12:15 |
| mexiKON | moin | 12:15 |
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| MrTopf | from when on will you be actually in China? | 12:16 |
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| bob2 | aloha | 12:21 |
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| faassen | MrTopf: hello | 12:41 |
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| _drzoltron | anyone working with SOAP and Z3 ? | 13:56 |
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| bob2 | is SOAP the same as XML-RPC? | 13:59 |
| _drzoltron | bob2: something like but a little bit more complex | 14:00 |
| _drzoltron | http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/python/2001/06/14/pysoap.html?page=2 | 14:00 |
| bob2 | complex enough that zope3's XML-RPC code won't work? | 14:00 |
| _drzoltron | no idea | 14:02 |
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| philiKON | _drzoltron, i think ZC is | 14:31 |
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| philiKON | _drzoltron, at least there's some soap support in 3.1 | 14:31 |
| _drzoltron | philiKON: thanx | 14:31 |
| philiKON | _drzoltron, read the docstring for the zope.app.publication.soap module | 14:34 |
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| _drzoltron | philiKON: thanx !! will ! | 15:23 |
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| philiKON | grrr. zope3-dev collector is broken somehow | 16:38 |
| philiKON | i can't make a followup on a specific issue | 16:39 |
| philiKON | weird. i can edit it | 16:39 |
| * SteveA points out malone | 16:49 | |
| SteveA | actively supported and maintained in a centralized location | 16:50 |
| SteveA | with an email in and out interface | 16:50 |
| SteveA | i think it would be very cool to have zope3 development use malone. but, i'm biased, being on the malone development team. | 16:51 |
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| efge | philiKON: that's because zope.org does some stupid caching | 16:51 |
| philiKON | SteveA, i love email in and out | 16:51 |
| efge | philiKON: you have to tack collector_issue_followup_form by hand at the end of the URL sometimes | 16:51 |
| philiKON | SteveA, roundup has that too | 16:51 |
| philiKON | efge, actually, i tried that. i still get redirected | 16:52 |
| SteveA | roundup is very nice | 16:53 |
| SteveA | at one point, we were thinking of building malone on top of roundup | 16:53 |
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| d2m | philiKON: want to give me the issue number ? | 16:55 |
| philiKON | 434 | 16:56 |
| d2m | i'll check that as far as i can | 16:56 |
| benji_york | SteveA, I agree about roundup (although I wish they hadn't re-invented 1/3 of Zope to build on top of) | 16:57 |
| philiKON | d2m, thanks | 16:59 |
| philiKON | SteveA, well, i wouldn't mind using malone; after all, it's z3 based :) | 16:59 |
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| d2m | philiKON: URL should be http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev/434/collector_issue_followup_form | 17:00 |
| philiKON | mmh, that works for me now | 17:01 |
| d2m | philiKON: i've got an 'Insufficient Rights' on first attempt | 17:01 |
| d2m | ok then | 17:02 |
| srichter | GaryPoster: I never vetoed the proposal, I just warned of possible risks :-) | 17:05 |
| GaryPoster | srichter: :-) ok | 17:05 |
| srichter | GaryPoster: no need to write aproposal for the fix either | 17:06 |
| srichter | GaryPoster: just participate in the twisted discussion later on; I plan to fix much more than just the server backend | 17:06 |
| srichter | I want to take the oppurtunity to componentize our entire server startup | 17:07 |
| GaryPoster | srichter: If I get it wrong, then I think it will be fairly obvious in the functional tests. OK, cool, I'll probably get it in today then. Re: Twisted--will do. I'm excited about the possibilities, but don't want to jump the gun. Componentize our entire server startup: sounds *great* to me. | 17:07 |
| srichter | one thing in particular: I want to be able to hook up new HTTP protocols based on adapter lookups | 17:07 |
| GaryPoster | hm--sounds like you mean you wnat it to be really easy to do--so name based adapters then? | 17:08 |
| SteveA | philiKON: if the zope3 community do want to move to use malone at some point, i can arrange to import the existing data. | 17:08 |
| srichter | yeah | 17:08 |
| philiKON | SteveA, malone is part of launchpad? | 17:09 |
| SteveA | yes | 17:09 |
| srichter | probably I want something like: This server should support browser, xmlrpc, json | 17:09 |
| srichter | and it knows what to do | 17:09 |
| GaryPoster | srichter: I like the idea of easy adapters, yeah. I'm assuming you are not planning on supporting long-open sockets like IM at least initially (or?) | 17:10 |
| GaryPoster | I'm not sure if it needs to be as easy as name-based, but I'm open to the idea at least :-) | 17:10 |
| philiKON | GaryPoster, are those relevant to HTTP anyway? | 17:11 |
| philiKON | (meaning the long open sockets) | 17:11 |
| srichter | yeah, this is for HTTP only | 17:11 |
| GaryPoster | No, but I understood stephan to be talking about servers generally. Ah, ok | 17:11 |
| srichter | Jim said he wants radically different approaches to other protocols | 17:11 |
| srichter | and regrets that FTP is using the publisher | 17:12 |
| srichter | I really, really want to work with him on this proposal during the F12g sprint | 17:12 |
| philiKON | itneresting. how would he do FTP w/o the publisher? | 17:13 |
| srichter | don't ask me | 17:13 |
| philiKON | *grin* | 17:13 |
| srichter | I think it will stay by using the publisher, but Jim mentioned he does not like it | 17:13 |
| GaryPoster | :-) Seems like FTP at least has obvious choices for transaction boundaries | 17:13 |
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| GaryPoster | "Radically different approaches" seem apt for long running sockets and other things we don't really contemplate (often at least) now. | 17:14 |
| SteveA | sftp is a saner thing to look at than ftp | 17:14 |
| SteveA | although, even with sftp, there are choices for where you have transaction boundaries | 17:14 |
| SteveA | for example, when using sftp for uploading bazaar archives, we want to have a single transaction for the whole upload | 17:15 |
| SteveA | but i can imagine cases where you want to have one transaction per changed / added file | 17:15 |
| benji_york | SteveA, I wonder if adding some Zope-specific FTP SITE commands to begin/end transactions would be interesting. | 17:16 |
| GaryPoster | SteveA, are you saying that you can have multiple uploads when you are uploading a Bazaar archive, and then the user has to make some gesture to say "OK, that's it, I'm finished"? | 17:18 |
| GaryPoster | (upon which point the transaction commits?) | 17:19 |
| SteveA | not as such | 17:20 |
| SteveA | i should first point out that the sftp stuff isn't based on zope3 | 17:20 |
| SteveA | but, when the client disconnects, we look at what has been uploaded. | 17:20 |
| SteveA | if it is valid, it gets "committed" | 17:20 |
| GaryPoster | Ah, I see. Interesting. | 17:21 |
| SteveA | i'm using this to explain on model of operation that has been useful on my project | 17:21 |
| SteveA | it is similar for the ftp server for people doing package uploads to ubuntu | 17:21 |
| SteveA | that uses the zope3 ftp code | 17:21 |
| SteveA | because the twisted ftp code was extremely sucky at the time we needed it | 17:21 |
| SteveA | but, it doesn't use other parts of zope3 than the ftp server from zserver | 17:22 |
| GaryPoster | Hm. That's an interesting pattern. In the Zope 3 implementation, do you begin a transaction upon the first upload, or take care to save up the uploads and then begin and end the ZODB transaction once the client disconnects? | 17:24 |
| srichter | yeah, Itamar implemented a new FTP server now, which was expedited because of Zope 3 | 17:27 |
| SteveA | GaryPoster: this doesn't use the zodb. | 17:29 |
| GaryPoster | SteveA: OK then. :-) | 17:29 |
| SteveA | with all of these facilities, i want it to be as easy to use them without the zodb as with it | 17:29 |
| SteveA | i love the zodb. however, bad things happen when you allow it to change how the overall systems are put together. | 17:30 |
| philiKON | srichter, any time estimate on when you'll tag the release? | 17:32 |
| srichter | I am not doing it today | 17:32 |
| srichter | probably during the weekend somewhen | 17:32 |
| philiKON | ah, ok | 17:32 |
| philiKON | coz i just added another bug (+patch): http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev/436 | 17:33 |
| philiKON | i haven't committed it right away because i want fred to look at it | 17:33 |
| philiKON | i remember he had some strong opinions on zope 3 installations | 17:33 |
| GaryPoster | SteveA: I'm guessing you used some sort of RDBMS backend for this then? And so, assuming you used a transactional DB, effectively you did do the "transaction begins when the client disconnects", because you don't talk to the database at all until you have all of the uploads? Re ZODB: I can see this. Seems like clear divisions of responsibility like WSGI would/could alleviate this. | 17:35 |
| SteveA | GaryPoster: the ftp and sftp stuff just use simple filesystem things. | 17:36 |
| efge | Has anyone tried Ape with Zope 3, and are there incompatibilities with ZODB 3.4? | 17:36 |
| efge | hi btw ;) | 17:36 |
| SteveA | GaryPoster: using moving directories etc. for transformations. | 17:36 |
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| philiKON | zope 3 is actually using zodb 3.5 now... | 17:37 |
| philiKON | efge, to answer your question, i don't know... | 17:37 |
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| efge | aw right. so with 3.4 or 3.5 ? | 17:37 |
| GaryPoster | SteveA: OK, cool. Thanks; I'll file this away. It also seems like it would be worth writing down somewhere as a use case for the Twisted/WSGi/publisher refactoring discussions. | 17:37 |
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| GaryPoster | efge: I'm 80% sure that Shane is working with Zope 3 right now for his job. I wouldn't be surprised if he worked APE in there somewhere. :-) | 17:38 |
| SteveA | GaryPoster: yeah -- basically, if the upload doesn't validate, we just throw it away | 17:39 |
| efge | GaryPoster: thanks. Anyway I'll be testing that soon. | 17:40 |
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| srichter | mkerrin: at some point we need to get together and work on the twisted proposal | 19:13 |
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| mkerrin | srichter: I am just thinking that too. I am a bit tied up at work at the moment and probable for the next few hours. | 19:34 |
| srichter | that's cool | 19:35 |
| srichter | it does not have to be today | 19:35 |
| srichter | but soon, so we can start the discussion | 19:35 |
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| timte | Do you have any numbers? Is z3 faster or slower than z2? | 20:51 |
| srichter | no we don't | 20:53 |
| srichter | and it would be very hard to measure | 20:53 |
| timte | ab2 is a simple test | 20:54 |
| srichter | feel free to do it, if you think it is so simple | 20:54 |
| philiKON | timte, it really depends what sort of benchmark you're making | 21:10 |
| philiKON | simple page delivery could be faster or not | 21:10 |
| philiKON | catalog queries for example is stuff frequently used in CM sites and can vary even within the range of zope 2 sites | 21:11 |
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| mp | I can't download zope | 22:09 |
| mp | download page is broken | 22:09 |
| srichter | what is broken? | 22:10 |
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| mp | The requested URL could not be retrieved | 22:17 |
| mp | While trying to retrieve the URL: | 22:18 |
| mp | http://10.0.27.200:8080/VirtualHostBase/http/www.zope.org:80/zopeorg/VirtualHostRoot/Products/Zope3/3.1.0c1/Zope3-3.1.0c1.tgz | 22:18 |
| mp | * Unable to forward this request at this time. | 22:18 |
| mp | Generated Fri, 05 Aug 2005 19:17:45 GMT by cache7.zmh.zope.com (squid/2.5.STABLE8) | 22:18 |
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| srichter | mmh, strange | 22:23 |
| srichter | d2m: we cannot download the release anymore | 22:23 |
| srichter | this url is broken: http://www.zope.org/Products/Zope3/3.1.0c1/Zope3-3.1.0c1.tgz | 22:23 |
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| mp | hm, is it allowed by licence and copyrights etc to mirror zope releases? | 22:26 |
| srichter | of course | 22:27 |
| srichter | Zope has a BSD-like license | 22:27 |
| srichter | as long as credit is given, you can even sell it | 22:27 |
| mp | good, so I'll put it on my little site | 22:28 |
| mp | for personal use mostly ;) | 22:28 |
| srichter | yep, great! | 22:28 |
| mp | none of zope.org downloads works for me | 22:30 |
| srichter | probably down/broken...dunno ;-| | 22:32 |
| mp | http://wiki.zope3.pl/download ;) | 22:33 |
| mp | I've found one | 22:33 |
| mp | but it's b | 22:33 |
| srichter | :-) | 22:34 |
| philiKON | srichter, yes, sawdog is already working on it | 22:34 |
| srichter | ok, thanks | 22:35 |
| GaryPoster | Heh, I just went over sneaker-network to get the same info. :-) | 22:36 |
| mp | who has c1 and would like to email it to me? ;) | 22:37 |
| srichter | is that your E-mail: horpah@hell.org.pl | 22:38 |
| GaryPoster | I don't have it. If you know SVN you could do an anonymous checkout of the branch, or a tag. That won't help you on Windows probably | 22:38 |
| mp | mpietrzak@gmail.com | 22:38 |
| srichter | sent | 22:39 |
| mp | thanks! | 22:39 |
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| mp | mirrored ;) | 22:46 |
| srichter | cool, thanks! | 22:46 |
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| mp | is z3/ecm in useable state? should I install it on testing site and use it? | 23:06 |
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| srichter | mp: you have to ask the guys, but I doubt it | 23:12 |
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| philiKON | mp, there isn't much code there actually | 23:24 |
| philiKON | mp, some workflow code, i think some versioning, but that's all | 23:24 |
| srichter | cosskin? | 23:25 |
| srichter | cpsskin? | 23:25 |
| philiKON | that's not part of ecm | 23:25 |
| philiKON | i guess | 23:25 |
| philiKON | no idea | 23:25 |
| philiKON | see, that's where we are | 23:25 |
| srichter | I see | 23:25 |
| philiKON | we have no idea yet :) | 23:25 |
| mp | maybe they should build something minimal (unstable/experimental) - just to show people what could be achieved | 23:27 |
| GaryPoster | FWIW, I think nuxeo thinks (it sounds reliable already, doesn't it) that cpsskin is part of ecm. | 23:27 |
| philiKON | GaryPoster, yeah, that's why i slowly backpedalled there :) | 23:27 |
| GaryPoster | gotcha ;-) | 23:28 |
| philiKON | though i don't consider cpsskins to be a crucial part of content management frameworks | 23:28 |
| philiKON | it's really just a finishing touch IMO | 23:28 |
| philiKON | but like i said, i have no idea :) | 23:29 |
| mp | well, "enterprise" usually means there are lot's of bells and whistles on the top | 23:29 |
| philiKON | not really | 23:29 |
| mp | looking very cool^Hprofessional | 23:29 |
| philiKON | enterprise usually means large-scale to me | 23:30 |
| philiKON | so the bells and whistles are down below | 23:30 |
| philiKON | that whole "enterprise" stuff is just a buzzword | 23:30 |
| philiKON | i wish we could drop it | 23:30 |
| philiKON | i don't think zope needs buzzwords to be successful | 23:31 |
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| mp | yes, by saying "cool bells and whistles on top" I meant that "enterprise" is (unfortunatelly) sometimes just a buzzword | 23:32 |
| GaryPoster | Arguably, the Zope 2 CMF matches your definition of "enterprise", and Plone and CPS add "bells and whistles". There's merit in this view, but it's not what I think Nuxeo is after, fwiw. They want to be able to sell, and selling needs sizzle. I'd argue that a big factor in Ruby on Rails success is the AJAX sizzle...Not agreeing or disagreeing: your observation just made me think. | 23:34 |
| alienoid | philiKON: unfortunately i think it requires buzzwords | 23:34 |
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| Tv | Hello. Is zope.interfaces 3.1.0 in the works, or has it been forgotten totally? | 23:35 |
| alienoid | look at that ruby on rails, and python's alternative django | 23:35 |
| wiggy | Tv! | 23:35 |
| wiggy | Tv: got any recommentdations for twisted books? | 23:35 |
| Tv | wiggy: sure | 23:35 |
| Tv | wiggy: some content in Python Network Programming by John Goerzen | 23:36 |
| Tv | wiggy: O'Reilly book coming out this fall | 23:36 |
| wiggy | heh, wasn't ware he wrote a python book | 23:36 |
| Tv | wiggy: http://tv.debian.net/articles/review-pynet/ | 23:37 |
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| mp | well, bells and whistles usually are needed to be economically successfull | 23:41 |
| mp | but not always, esp these days, when linux and open source starts to gain market | 23:41 |
| mp | i've even found one rh as today in my "enterprise" | 23:42 |
| mp | I wonder who allowed this ;) | 23:42 |
| mp | but there is no real database on it.. | 23:44 |
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| wiggy | Tv: thanks | 23:44 |
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| Tv | Will zope 3.1 work with zope.interfaces 3.0.1? | 23:48 |
| srichter | yeah, I am pretty sure it will | 23:49 |
| srichter | not much changed | 23:49 |
| srichter | maybe a few bug fixes | 23:49 |
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