IRC log of #zope3-dev for Friday, 2005-08-05

benji_yorkbye all00:22
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theuniSteveA:  actually i'm pretty glad that ++skin++ seems to be only possible one time per traversal00:27
theunitherefore a sensible apache with mod_proxy in front of it, takes that off.00:27
SteveAkill ++skin++00:27
* theuni gets weapons. Lots of weapons.00:27
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philiKONsrichter, do you wanna do that zodb merge, since you're going to do the release nayway...00:30
srichterit's just replaceing the svn:externals, yes?00:31
philiKONas tim said, a simple merge00:31
srichterI am only doing this for the 3.1 branch.00:34
theunidoes that mean that blobs are finally be somewhere to be used?00:34
theuni.oO(ignore the bad syntax of that sentence)00:34
philiKONsrichter, yes please00:35
philiKONtheuni, is the blob branch already merged to the zodb trunk?!?00:35
philiKONcool, thanks00:36
theunii just notice it isn't00:36
* theuni shuts up00:36
theunii think that will happen at the small sprint at the dzug meeting in september then00:36
philiKONwould be cool00:37
philiKONtheuni, srichter and i were talking about moving zope 3.1 to a new zodb tag00:37
philiKONnot merging anything inside zodb00:37
theunisure. i just noticed that the blob stuff needs to land some day. :)00:43
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theuniand likely i have to do some work for that00:43
philiKONyou betcha00:43
srichterJim put blobs on his list for 3.200:43
MrTopf*fighting with Five* ;-)00:43
philiKONALL: are bugdays usually preferred to be held on fridays or would a wednesday be ok as well?00:43
MrTopfit's all still a bit unfamiliar ..00:44
srichterhe really wants to improve the WSGI support and use blobs for large data00:44
philiKONsrichter, .oO  Fulton's List00:44
MrTopf*winning* :-)00:44
srichterphiliKON: friday seems to be preferred by commercial people, though for me any weekday is fine00:44
philiKONnote that i'm asking for a X3 3.0 bugday to make a (maybe final) X3 3.0.2 release00:45
* MrTopf just wrote an RSS view for SimpleBlog as little exercise00:45
philiKONpossible date: august 1700:45
bobessutiois zope3 slower or faster than zope2?00:46
srichterphiliKON: do we need one that early?00:46
MrTopfbobessutio: I don't think you can answer that in general. Probably depends very much on the application.00:47
MrTopfbobessutio: and I think not that many benchmarks have been made yet. but I don't know00:47
MrTopf<-- z3 newbie :-)00:47
philiKONsrichter, well, the farther we push this away, the more work we'll ahve to do00:47
bobessutioMrTopf: ok, that is what i thought.00:47
srichterAugust 17 is fine with me; feel free to send a message00:48
MrTopfe.g. you cannot really compare a Plone site to a Z3 site as there is nothing yet like Plone for Z300:48
MrTopf(I would be interested in benchmarks, though)00:48
srichterI think part of my ST work will be to build a profiler00:49
srichteras a utility00:50
srichterso you can optimize in devmode00:50
MrTopfwith events it might also be easier to cache stuff as it's more likely that you get to know when things change00:51
MrTopfso it might be easier to make sites faster00:51
philiKONi bet a lot of time will be spent in zope.interface.adapter.AdapterLookup.lookup1 :)00:51
MrTopfhope this is fast ;-)00:51
philiKONalienoid is rewriting it in C to make it even faster :)00:52
srichteryes, it is by far the most used call00:52
MrTopfjust detected "Syndizierung" as german translation for Syndication in Plone...00:52
philiKONof course, soon we'll be rewriting C code in Python just to have it optimized by PyPy00:53
MrTopfof course00:54
philiKONby the way, i once complained in front of holger krekel how sucky Javascript was00:54
philiKONhe just said: yeah, just write a JS backend for PyPy and you can run Python in your browser :)00:55
* philiKON wonders how many pystones you would bet in JSPython *grin*00:55
srichterI wonder whether it would be possible at all00:56
srichterI almost doubt it00:56
philiKONi think it'd be possible, but also a bit crazy :)00:58
MrTopfso after your test you know what you have to do ;-)01:03
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gintasphiliKON, it might be easier to write an LLVM interpreter in JS and then use that01:07
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gintasthe result would probably have to be measured by pypebbles01:08
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theunibtw: i just noticed that in large-scale setups i like the behaviour of zope3 better, which opens network ports after configuring and starting everything else01:10
theuniwhereas on developer machines i like it more when it opens the ports first01:10
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philiKONgintas, :)01:48
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bob2it seems like zope3 should have it's own section on the website11:50
bob2rather than hiding away as a development thing11:51
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MrTopfhi mexiKON, faassen12:15
MrTopfhi bob212:15
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MrTopffrom when on will you be actually in China?12:16
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faassenMrTopf: hello12:41
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_drzoltronanyone working with SOAP and Z3 ?13:56
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bob2is SOAP the same as XML-RPC?13:59
_drzoltronbob2: something like but a little bit more complex14:00
bob2complex enough that zope3's XML-RPC code won't work?14:00
_drzoltronno idea14:02
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philiKON_drzoltron, i think ZC is14:31
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philiKON_drzoltron, at least there's some soap support in 3.114:31
_drzoltronphiliKON: thanx14:31
philiKON_drzoltron, read the docstring for the module14:34
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_drzoltronphiliKON: thanx !! will !15:23
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philiKONgrrr. zope3-dev collector is broken somehow16:38
philiKONi can't make a followup on a specific issue16:39
philiKONweird. i can edit it16:39
* SteveA points out malone16:49
SteveAactively supported and maintained in a centralized location16:50
SteveAwith an email in and out interface16:50
SteveAi think it would be very cool to have zope3 development use malone.  but, i'm biased, being on the malone development team.16:51
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efgephiliKON: that's because does some stupid caching16:51
philiKONSteveA, i love email in and out16:51
efgephiliKON: you have to tack collector_issue_followup_form by hand at the end of the URL sometimes16:51
philiKONSteveA, roundup has that too16:51
philiKONefge, actually, i tried that. i still get redirected16:52
SteveAroundup is very nice16:53
SteveAat one point, we were thinking of building malone on top of roundup16:53
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d2mphiliKON: want to give me the issue number ?16:55
d2mi'll check that as far as i can16:56
benji_yorkSteveA, I agree about roundup (although I wish they hadn't re-invented 1/3 of Zope to build on top of)16:57
philiKONd2m, thanks16:59
philiKONSteveA, well, i wouldn't mind using malone; after all, it's z3 based :)16:59
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d2mphiliKON: URL should be
philiKONmmh, that works for me now17:01
d2mphiliKON: i've got an 'Insufficient Rights' on first attempt17:01
d2mok then17:02
srichterGaryPoster: I never vetoed the proposal, I just warned of possible risks :-)17:05
GaryPostersrichter: :-) ok17:05
srichterGaryPoster: no need to write  aproposal for the fix either17:06
srichterGaryPoster: just participate in the twisted discussion later on; I plan to fix much more than just the server backend17:06
srichterI want to take the oppurtunity to componentize our entire server startup17:07
GaryPostersrichter: If I get it wrong, then I think it will be fairly obvious in the functional tests.  OK, cool, I'll probably get it in today then.  Re: Twisted--will do.  I'm excited about the possibilities, but don't want to jump the gun.  Componentize our entire server startup: sounds *great* to me.17:07
srichterone thing in particular: I want to be able to hook up new HTTP protocols based on adapter lookups17:07
GaryPosterhm--sounds like you mean you wnat it to be really easy to do--so name based adapters then?17:08
SteveAphiliKON: if the zope3 community do want to move to use malone at some point, i can arrange to import the existing data.17:08
philiKONSteveA, malone is part of launchpad?17:09
srichterprobably I want something like: This server should support browser, xmlrpc, json17:09
srichterand it knows what to do17:09
GaryPostersrichter: I like the idea of easy adapters, yeah.  I'm assuming you are not planning on supporting long-open sockets like IM at least initially (or?)17:10
GaryPosterI'm not sure if it needs to be as easy as name-based, but I'm open to the idea at least :-)17:10
philiKONGaryPoster, are those relevant to HTTP anyway?17:11
philiKON(meaning the long open sockets)17:11
srichteryeah, this is for HTTP only17:11
GaryPosterNo, but I understood stephan to be talking about servers generally.  Ah, ok17:11
srichterJim said he wants radically different approaches to other protocols17:11
srichterand regrets that FTP is using the publisher17:12
srichterI really, really want to work with him on this proposal during the F12g sprint17:12
philiKONitneresting. how would he do FTP w/o the publisher?17:13
srichterdon't ask me17:13
srichterI think it will stay by using the publisher, but Jim mentioned he does not like it17:13
GaryPoster:-) Seems like FTP at least has obvious choices for transaction boundaries17:13
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GaryPoster"Radically different approaches" seem apt for long running sockets and other things we don't really contemplate (often at least) now.17:14
SteveAsftp is a saner thing to look at than ftp17:14
SteveAalthough, even with sftp, there are choices for where you have transaction boundaries17:14
SteveAfor example, when using sftp for uploading bazaar archives, we want to have a single transaction for the whole upload17:15
SteveAbut i can imagine cases where you want to have one transaction per changed / added file17:15
benji_yorkSteveA, I wonder if adding some Zope-specific FTP SITE commands to begin/end transactions would be interesting.17:16
GaryPosterSteveA, are you saying that you can have multiple uploads when you are uploading a Bazaar archive, and then the user has to make some gesture to say "OK, that's it, I'm finished"?17:18
GaryPoster(upon which point the transaction commits?)17:19
SteveAnot as such17:20
SteveAi should first point out that the sftp stuff isn't based on zope317:20
SteveAbut, when the client disconnects, we look at what has been uploaded.17:20
SteveAif it is valid, it gets "committed"17:20
GaryPosterAh, I see.  Interesting.17:21
SteveAi'm using this to explain on model of operation that has been useful on my project17:21
SteveAit is similar for the ftp server for people doing package uploads to ubuntu17:21
SteveAthat uses the zope3 ftp code17:21
SteveAbecause the twisted ftp code was extremely sucky at the time we needed it17:21
SteveAbut, it doesn't use other parts of zope3 than the ftp server from zserver17:22
GaryPosterHm.  That's an interesting pattern.  In the Zope 3 implementation, do you begin a transaction upon the first upload, or take care to save up the uploads and then begin and end the ZODB transaction once the client disconnects?17:24
srichteryeah, Itamar implemented a new FTP server now, which was expedited because of Zope 317:27
SteveAGaryPoster: this doesn't use the zodb.17:29
GaryPosterSteveA: OK then. :-)17:29
SteveAwith all of these facilities, i want it to be as easy to use them without the zodb as with it17:29
SteveAi love the zodb.  however, bad things happen when you allow it to change how the overall systems are put together.17:30
philiKONsrichter, any time estimate on when you'll tag the release?17:32
srichterI am not doing it today17:32
srichterprobably during the weekend somewhen17:32
philiKONah, ok17:32
philiKONcoz i just added another bug (+patch):
philiKONi haven't committed it right away because i want fred to look at it17:33
philiKONi remember he had some strong opinions on zope 3 installations17:33
GaryPosterSteveA: I'm guessing you used some sort of RDBMS backend for this then?  And so, assuming you used a transactional DB, effectively you did do the "transaction begins when the client disconnects", because you don't talk to the database at all until you have all of the uploads?  Re ZODB: I can see this.  Seems like clear divisions of responsibility like WSGI would/could alleviate this.17:35
SteveAGaryPoster: the ftp and sftp stuff just use simple filesystem things.17:36
efgeHas anyone tried Ape with Zope 3, and are there incompatibilities with ZODB 3.4?17:36
efgehi btw ;)17:36
SteveAGaryPoster: using moving directories etc. for transformations.17:36
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philiKONzope 3 is actually using zodb 3.5 now...17:37
philiKONefge, to answer your question, i don't know...17:37
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efgeaw right. so with 3.4 or 3.5 ?17:37
GaryPosterSteveA: OK, cool.  Thanks; I'll file this away.  It also seems like it would be worth writing down somewhere as a use case for the Twisted/WSGi/publisher refactoring  discussions.17:37
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GaryPosterefge: I'm 80% sure that Shane is working with Zope 3 right now for his job.  I wouldn't be surprised if he worked APE in there somewhere. :-)17:38
SteveAGaryPoster: yeah -- basically, if the upload doesn't validate, we just throw it away17:39
efgeGaryPoster: thanks. Anyway I'll be testing that soon.17:40
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srichtermkerrin: at some point we need to get together and work on the twisted proposal19:13
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mkerrinsrichter: I am just thinking that too. I am a bit tied up at work at the moment and probable for the next few hours.19:34
srichterthat's cool19:35
srichterit does not have to be today19:35
srichterbut soon, so we can start the discussion19:35
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timteDo you have any numbers? Is z3 faster or slower than z2?20:51
srichterno we don't20:53
srichterand it would be very hard to measure20:53
timteab2 is a simple test20:54
srichterfeel free to do it, if you think it is so simple20:54
philiKONtimte, it really depends what sort of benchmark you're making21:10
philiKONsimple page delivery could be faster or not21:10
philiKONcatalog queries for example is stuff frequently used in CM sites and can vary even within the range of zope 2 sites21:11
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mpI can't download zope22:09
mpdownload page is broken22:09
srichterwhat is broken?22:10
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mpThe requested URL could not be retrieved22:17
mpWhile trying to retrieve the URL:22:18
mp* Unable to forward this request at this time.22:18
mpGenerated Fri, 05 Aug 2005 19:17:45 GMT by (squid/2.5.STABLE8)22:18
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srichtermmh, strange22:23
srichterd2m: we cannot download the release anymore22:23
srichterthis url is broken:
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mphm, is it allowed by licence and copyrights etc to mirror zope releases?22:26
srichterof course22:27
srichterZope has a BSD-like license22:27
srichteras long as credit is given, you can even sell it22:27
mpgood, so I'll put it on my little site22:28
mpfor personal use mostly ;)22:28
srichteryep, great!22:28
mpnone of downloads works for me22:30
srichterprobably down/broken...dunno ;-|22:32
mp  ;)22:33
mpI've found one22:33
mpbut it's b22:33
philiKONsrichter, yes, sawdog is already working on it22:34
srichterok, thanks22:35
GaryPosterHeh, I just went over sneaker-network to get the same info. :-)22:36
mpwho has c1 and would like to email it to me? ;)22:37
srichteris that your E-mail:
GaryPosterI don't have it.  If you know SVN you could do an anonymous checkout of the branch, or a tag.  That won't help you on Windows probably22:38
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mpmirrored ;)22:46
srichtercool, thanks!22:46
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mpis z3/ecm in useable state? should I install it on testing site and use it?23:06
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srichtermp: you have to ask the guys, but I doubt it23:12
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philiKONmp, there isn't much code there actually23:24
philiKONmp, some workflow code, i think some versioning, but that's all23:24
philiKONthat's not part of ecm23:25
philiKONi guess23:25
philiKONno idea23:25
philiKONsee, that's where we are23:25
srichterI see23:25
philiKONwe have no idea yet :)23:25
mpmaybe they should build something minimal (unstable/experimental) - just to show people what could be achieved23:27
GaryPosterFWIW, I think nuxeo thinks (it sounds reliable already, doesn't it) that cpsskin is part of ecm.23:27
philiKONGaryPoster, yeah, that's why i slowly backpedalled there :)23:27
GaryPostergotcha ;-)23:28
philiKONthough i don't consider cpsskins to be a crucial part of content management frameworks23:28
philiKONit's really just a finishing touch IMO23:28
philiKONbut like i said, i have no idea :)23:29
mpwell, "enterprise" usually means there are lot's of bells and whistles on the top23:29
philiKONnot really23:29
mplooking very cool^Hprofessional23:29
philiKONenterprise usually means large-scale to me23:30
philiKONso the bells and whistles are down below23:30
philiKONthat whole "enterprise" stuff is just a buzzword23:30
philiKONi wish we could drop it23:30
philiKONi don't think zope needs buzzwords to be successful23:31
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mpyes, by saying "cool bells and whistles on top" I meant that "enterprise" is (unfortunatelly) sometimes just a buzzword23:32
GaryPosterArguably, the Zope 2 CMF matches your definition of "enterprise", and Plone and CPS add "bells and whistles".  There's merit in this view, but it's not what I think Nuxeo is after, fwiw.  They want to be able to sell, and selling needs sizzle.  I'd argue that a big factor in Ruby on Rails success is the AJAX sizzle...Not agreeing or disagreeing: your observation just made me think.23:34
alienoidphiliKON: unfortunately i think it requires buzzwords23:34
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TvHello. Is zope.interfaces 3.1.0 in the works, or has it been forgotten totally?23:35
alienoidlook at that ruby on rails, and python's alternative django23:35
wiggyTv: got any recommentdations for twisted books?23:35
Tvwiggy: sure23:35
Tvwiggy: some content in Python Network Programming by John Goerzen23:36
Tvwiggy: O'Reilly book coming out this fall23:36
wiggyheh, wasn't ware he wrote a python book23:36
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mpwell, bells and whistles usually are needed to be economically successfull23:41
mpbut not always, esp these days, when linux and open source starts to gain market23:41
mpi've even found one rh as today in my "enterprise"23:42
mpI wonder who allowed this ;)23:42
mpbut there is no real database on it..23:44
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wiggyTv: thanks23:44
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TvWill zope 3.1 work with zope.interfaces 3.0.1?23:48
srichteryeah, I am pretty sure it will23:49
srichternot much changed23:49
srichtermaybe a few bug fixes23:49
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