IRC log of #zope3-dev for Thursday, 2005-08-04

srichterof course, besides showing the directly provided interfaces, it actually inspects the object and displays the actual attribute values and allows you even to explore those values, if they are locatable00:02
smI like it00:09
sman object explorer00:09
srichteryes, we had this before and it was not maintained00:12
srichterthe one I wrote depends on the apidoc API, which minimized the code needed00:12
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lifeless./win 2400:17
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benji_yorkbuy all01:09
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philiKONsrichter, rc2 on friday, right?01:16
srichterthat's what I am thinking right now01:16
srichteror will be monday better ?01:16
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philiKONi don't care, as long as i have time to teest and check in my zeo script fix01:17
philiKONwhich i'm planning to do tomorrow01:17
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philiKONg'night then01:17
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AJCwhat's the difference between skin_macros ( and  in the message board example, they are identical.09:13
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bob2hm, what repaced NotFoundError in the trunk?11:01
bob2the deprecation warning doesn't say11:01
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wiggysrc/BTrees/BucketTemplate.c:905: warning: pointer targets in passing argument 1 of ‘PyString_FromStringAndSize’ differ in signedness11:13
wiggyis anyone working on those?11:13
MrTopfbob2: actually I don't know where NotFoundError was removed but IIRC someone wrote/said KeyError11:16
bob2ah, thanks11:17
bob2erk, I suspect my tests aren't complete enough to see if that's right11:17
mexiKONbob2, well, KeyError and other more specific errors11:17
mexiKONKeyError for a particular case of traversal11:17
mexiKONand FoobarNotFoundError for more specific cases11:18
wiggyhm, unittest failure in svn trunk11:18
bob2hm, this is for an authentication service11:18
mexiKONwiggy, ouch11:18
bob2(need to convert it to a utility, too)11:18
mexiKONbob2, PrincipalNotFoundError11:18
bob2ah, thanks11:19
bob2are the new ones in zope.exceptions still?11:19
mexiKONbob2, don't think so11:19
bob2and would it be feasible to fix pydoc to work with zope source?11:19
mexiKONsure, you could give it a try11:19
mexiKONor just use the code browser of apidoc11:19
mexiKONwiggy, yeah, the zdaemon stuff11:20
bob2yeah, apidoc is more mousing, tho :)11:20
mexiKONwiggy, i never dare to touch that11:20
wiggyseems to be the only failure11:20
bob2wiggy: is that with gcc 4.0 -Wall?11:21
wiggygcc 4.0.211:21
wiggynot sure if it passes -Wall in11:21
mexiKONi don't think zdaemon has C code11:24
bob2hrm, PrincipalNotFoundError isn't mentioned in the zope3 source at all11:24
mexiKONbob2, sorry, I meant PrincipalLookupError11:26
wiggymexiKON: no, but the BTree stuff gave compile errors11:26
bob2ah, thank you11:27
bob2I was just reading the source and notice zope.exceptions is nearly empty11:28
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srichterbob2: Adjusting pydoc to work with zope source would be a lot of workalso, it would never be as useful as apidoc13:37
srichterwhy do you say apidoc requires a lot of mousing?13:38
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srichterphiliKON: Don't forget CHANGES.txt16:06
philiKONi'm not done yet :)16:06
philiKONsrichter, tim is not on IRC, is he?16:06
srichterusually not16:07
philiKONgonna write him an email then16:07
srichterbut he is very responsive to emails16:07
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bob2srichter: using pydoc is a matter of one keystroke to switch to a terminal, then pasting the name of the module16:49
bob2srichter: apidoc means switch to firefox, finding the right tab, pasting the module, converting . to /16:49
bob2and means having a zope instance running16:50
bob2not a huge deal, but overall less convenient16:50
srichterno, just search for it16:50
srichteralso, a module does nto have much documentation in Zope16:50
srichterbut in Zope trying to look at the module documentation is often totally useless16:51
srichterjust have the menu with the codebrowser search menu always open16:51
srichteror write a small script that will start firefox and insert the right query16:51
srichterbtw, the browsability of the documentation with its many inter-documentation links makes it so useful, otherwise you could just read the interfaces Py files and know the same16:52
hdimabob2: try 'python -m pydoc -p 8082' and then go to http://localhost:808216:54
bob2hdima: I'm trying to avoid using a web brwoser :)16:54
hdimaah :)16:56
srichterbob2: you can always write a CLI for apidoc16:57
srichterother people like you might find this helpful16:57
bob2yeah, that just occured to me16:57
bob2I do agree the links are useful, and I do use apidoc16:57
bob2but sometimes I just want to very quickly find the spelling for that class or whatever16:57 provides a solid API for Zope 3 code inspection16:58
srichteryou could effectively have the same info as on the Web page16:58
srichter(especially when mixed with colors)16:58
bob2ah, awesome16:58
bob2I'll have a look at doing a cli viewer in the morning, thanks again :)16:59
srichterbob2: let me know if you need help16:59
bob2will do, thanks17:00
bob2ah, you're the maintainer for that module17:00
srichteryes, I wrote it17:00
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srichterI have come to the conclusion that general-purpose API documentation tools must suck17:00
bob2as in general input or general output?17:01
srichterthe value of a documentation tool comes from handling very specific cases and provide info that is usually hard to reach17:02
srichterfor example, apidoc will tell you the permission required to get/set any attribute in a class17:02
srichterthat info would be impossible for pydoc to ever generate17:02
srichterunless they provide very generic plugins for this sort of thing17:03
bob2ahh, right17:03
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benji_yorksrichter, the author of mechanize respectfully declined the offer of testbrowser, he (understanably) said that he doesn't have enough time to maintain the code there now, so doesn't want to add more17:27
srichterat least he is aware of it now17:28
benji_yorkthere was some interest from other people, so I may put together a zope-free distribution17:28
philiKONmaybe we should offer to maintain it as part of zope.testing...?17:28
philiKONall zope.* packages (except for should more or less be usable outside of Zope-the-application-server (which is
* wiggy zooms in on the zdaemon error17:28
wiggyit looks like it always breaks on python 2.317:29
wiggyand always works on python 2.417:29
benji_yorkphiliKon, now that you mention it, if you import the right thing, it already works outside of zope, I'll have to look at it a bit more17:30
srichterwiggy: I test with 2.4 only17:30
wiggythat explains nicely why you don't see it17:30
benji_yorkalso, philiKON, the meaning of being a top-level zope.whatever package is changing, Jim wants to start using that namespace for new packages and slowly move things out of zope.app17:30
philiKONbenji_york, basically, zope.* packages could depend on zope.interface or so, so any distribution would also have to include zope.interface. but other than that they shoudl really work outside of zope-the-app-server.17:30
philiKONmakes sense for self-contained things17:31
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philiKONbut the advantage of is that you can basically rely on a lot of functionality without worrying about dependencies17:31
philiKONsome zope.* packages are already being distributed separately (e.g. in debian)17:32
bob2ahh, I was wondering what the significance of things being in was17:32
benji_yorktrue, that's where I see more reliance on ZPackage's dependency code, etc.17:32
philiKONbob2, basically zope.* packages are standard python packages you could use in any kind of project; is Zope-the-application-server17:33
bob2that makessense17:33
philiKONat least that's the old-school interpretation17:34
philiKONjim might have crazy new ideas :)17:34
benji_yorkhe does  :)17:34
philiKONalways has and always will :)17:34
bob2good to know I can just drop z.interfaces in other projects17:34
bob2until python just includes it in the standard lib, anyway ;)17:34
philiKONbob2, yup. twisted is doing that17:34
benji_yorkbob2, there is even a stand-alone distribution, somewhere on zope.org17:35
bob2yeah, I heard they went with zope's instead of writing their own17:35
bob2and it's awesome zope is moving to using twisted's core17:35
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MrTopfso will zi be in the standard lib sometime? or will it more likely be some PyProtocols stuff?17:35
philiKONwiggy, you're managing the zope 3 debian package, right?17:35
MrTopfhi, btw :-)17:35
philiKONhi MrTopf17:36
philiKONMrTopf, who knows17:36
wiggyphiliKON: it's a team effort17:36
benji_yorkMrTopf, Guido made overtures about 6 months ago, but nothing since17:36
wiggyand I haven't done anything yet17:36
MrTopflooked only once at PyProtocols some very long time ago17:36
wiggybut otherwise, yes17:36
philiKONwiggy, who has done the package(s) that is(are) in so far?17:36
MrTopfbenji_york: well, heard him talking about interfaces last year on EP17:36
philiKONthe 3.0.91etc. stuff17:36
* wiggy checks17:37
MrTopfback then he wanted to see what's going to work out what way..17:37
philiKONwiggy, ah found it17:37
philiKONwiggy, matthias klose17:37
philiKONit seems17:37
wiggyah, yes17:37
philiKONis he on irc?17:37
bob2wiggy: are they based on the one's doko did for ubuntu?17:37
wiggyyes, doko17:37
wiggythe idea is to have a single source of zope3 packages for both ubuntu and debian17:37
philiKONi think there's a bug in z3 that prevents it from running properly the way debian sets up zope17:38
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bob2so, zope 3.1 is the first release I've been around for...has the trunk historically been stable enough to develop code against, or do people only develop apps against stable releases unless they have a very good reason?17:40
philiKONwiggy, does /usr/lib/zope3/bin/mkzopeinstance work for you?17:41
philiKONbob2, the trunk should never be broken17:42
benji_yorkbob2, I've also only been around for 3.1, but we (ZC) have been developing against the head17:42
philiKONbob2, that's why we have a proposal- and test-driven development philosophy17:42
bob2right, I've picked that up...I guess I'm wondering how well it works in practice :)17:43
philiKONof course, refactorings etc. are still allowed17:43
philiKONwhen you're developing against the trunk you can never be sure17:43
philiKONBefore the X3.0 release we lots of geddons17:43
philiKONand even since then we had srichter's blowservices geddon17:43
philiKONonly this time we have backward compat :)17:43
srichterwell, sorta :-)17:44
wiggyphiliKON: let me find a machine where I have that installed17:44
philiKONwiggy, essentially, the problem is that zope actually expects to live inside its own "world" (usually something like /usr/local/Zope-3.1.0/)17:44
philiKONwher eyou have /usr/local/Zope-3.1.0/lib/python17:44
philiKONand .../bin containing the scripts17:44
philiKONsuch as mkzopeinstance17:44
wiggyhow lame, I forgot where the debs are17:44
philiKONnow, these scripts actually rely on being in such a "world"17:45
philiKONthey can't manage when being detached from their zope installation17:45
philiKONdebian does this17:45
philiKONdebian installs zope in site-packages17:45
philiKONand the scripts in /usr/lib/zope3/bin17:45
philiKONwhich I personally think is ok (Fred seems to disagree)17:45
wiggyit does fit the zope-can-be-used-without-zope-the-app-theme17:46
philiKONpoint is if debian wants to keep doing it this way, we need to adjust the scripts in bin17:46
wiggyso I suspect we'll want to keep it that way unless there is a good reason not to17:47
philiKONthat's what i think17:47
philiKON(on windows, btw, zope3 already gets installed into site-packages)17:52
philiKONsrichter, in SETUP.cfg there's a line saying   script        bin/*\17:52
philiKONerr, without the \17:52
philiKONsrichter, so that would mean that everthing in Zope3/bin is also in an installations' bin, right?17:53
philiKONthat doesn't really happen, though17:53
srichtermmh, no17:54
srichteractually, yes17:54
srichterI don't know much about cfg files17:54
philiKONe.g. Zope3/bin/debugzope is not in my Zope-3.1.0/bin/ directory17:55
philiKONeven though i would expect it to be judging from that SETUP.cfg entry17:55
srichtermmh, no clue why17:56
philiKONbecause PACKAGE.cfg seems to define that in this case17:57
philiKONreleases/Zope/PACKAGE.cfg that is17:57
philiKONin either case I'll know how to hook up mkzeoinstance17:57
srichterI think PACKAGE.cfg is the right one to add it17:58
srichterthat's where I add version.txt all the time17:58
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roymGentlemen, I'm writing a doctest (unit test); How would I make a18:33
roymvocabulary available to my test harness. I have a vocabulary18:33
roymimplementation, and I use in ZCML.18:33
philiKONexecute the zcml18:35
benji_yorksrichter, the HTML spec doesn't allow for a form's action to be empty, I wish it did :(18:41
srichterarg, what if I do not specify the action?18:41
srichterisn't that the same as action=""?18:42
benji_yorkaction is required18:42
srichterthis is really dumb18:42
philiKONmake it . or context/@@absolute_url18:42
benji_yorkyep, I wanted to do the same thing about a month ago18:42
srichterno, I don't want .18:42
benji_yorknope, "." isn't allowed either :(18:42
srichterthis brings me to the default view of the context18:42
srichterI really want request.url or something18:43
srichterok, I'll change that, sigh18:43
* srichter starts to hate the HTML standard18:43
* benji_york already hates the HTML standards :)18:44
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roymphiliKON: excuse my ignorance: how do I execute the ZCML in a unit test framework?18:45
philiKONuse zope.configuration.xmlconfig.file()18:46
philiKONright, or .string()18:46
philiKONroym, execute first18:46
philiKONso that you have the <vocabulary /> directive18:46
philiKONroym, look at other tests that do it18:47
roymok - will browse.18:47
philiKONroym, e.g.
philiKONthe spelling is a bit different18:47
philiKONbut the concept is the same18:47
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srichterbenji_york: does mechanize/testbrowser handle frames well?18:49
benji_yorkI have no idea  :)18:50
benji_yorkat worst, you'd have to "open" the target url of a frame, instead of opening the url of the frame set18:51
philiKONsrichter, now i know the difference between PACKAGE.cfg and SETUP.cfg :)18:57
philiKONPACKAGE.cfg defines what the .tgz will look like18:58
philiKONSETUP.cfg defines what to do when you're inside the .tgz and calling build etc.18:58
srichteroh, I see18:58
philiKONso, basically, when you have stuff that isn't part of a package but you want it to be installed somehow, you need to add it to the PACKAGE.cfg *and* the global SETUP.cfg18:59
philiKONif stuff is part of a package, you just add it to that package's SETUP.cfg (it will be part of the .tgz through its package already)18:59
srichterok, I see19:01
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th1aDoes anyone know the status of running Zope 3 as a Windows Service?19:37
srichterbenji_york: projekt01: do you know an answer to Tom's question?19:38
philiKONth1a, there's, but it's supposedly not in the same good shape that its Zope 2.8 equivalent is19:39
th1aphiliKON:  Thanks, taking a look.19:41
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benji_yorkthla, we have a product that runs z3 as a service.  It works fine as long as you don't try to log to STDOUT or STDERR  :)19:54
th1abenji_york:  Cool.  We might have some questions for you about getting SchoolTool to run as a service.19:56
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srichterdoes anyone here know how to include a picture in a Wiki page?21:31
benji_yorknot on zwiki21:33
srichtersm: how can I add a picture in ZWiki?21:35
smhi.. on z2 ?21:36
srichteryeah, zope.org21:36
* sm shudders21:36
smif you have add documents, images, files permission in that folder it should show an upload field in the edit form21:37
srichterok, I can do that21:37
d2msrichter: upload the image (you dont need a cmf image) and add the img tag21:37
smthough may not as its edit form is f*d21:37
srichterI can handle the upload via the ZMI21:38
srichteris using the IMG tag the recommended wya?21:38
srichterd2m: thanks, btw21:38
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bobessutiois zope3 slower or faster than zope2?23:08
srichterI am pretty sure Z3 is faster, though it is hard to say23:09
srichterZope 2 is larger in size and thus provides more features23:10
smgood question23:13
benji_yorkbobessutio, also note that "slower" and "faster" don't mean much without a way to measure what you're talking about23:13
smcomparable sites in z2 & z3 on the same machine23:13
benji_yorksm, so requests/second?23:14
projekt01srichter, You where asking about a answer for Toms question, what was the question?23:14
philiKONbobessutio, i think that question is too general to be answered in a simple yes or no23:14
smI know feels fast, for a zope site doing cmf-like things23:14
srichterprojekt01: whether Zope 3 can run as a service23:15
projekt01I use firedeamon on some custom projects for z3 to run as a service23:15
philiKONgrrr. is annoying the crap out of me23:16
smwhat's new :)23:16
srichteryep, me too23:16
srichterprojekt01: ok, I'll tell tom23:17
projekt01srichter, It's cheap and works very well,
benji_yorkprojekt01, are you talking about running z3 as a windows service?23:17
projekt01Yup, I run the a start.bat file with the firedeamon, since more then a year, but perhaps is there a win service in zope3 now? or not?23:19
benji_yorkI think so.23:19
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projekt01benji_york, I think I have to take a look at I don't know if this works or it's just a take over from z2.23:22
benji_yorksomething works because we're using it  :)23:22
benji_yorklet me look at the installer for the product I'm thinking of and see how it sets up the service23:22
projekt01Yeah, whould be cool23:23
benji_yorkit uses the script, but I'm not sure where that comes from, looking more...23:24
benji_yorkit's in zopeskel/bin/
philiKONprojekt01, it's more or less a takeover from zope 2; but i think recent fixes to the zope 2 equivalent weren't carried over to
philiKONsomeone should compare the zope3-checkins and zope-checkins list and see if fixes still need to be merge23:27
benji_yorkit would be nice if someone woul23:27
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srichterdoes anyone here know a nice little program to record a movie of the screen?23:30
srichteri.e. for doing demos23:30
* sm would like to know too (on linux)23:31
projekt01benji_york, I see, I never used a built z3 version. I always build it in my workspace. The script seems to use some variables from the installer.23:32
projekt01srichter, wink23:32
sm seems relevant23:32
sm"Camtasia Studio" is the one paul uses23:33
SteveAsrichter: in launchpad, we have several .conf files, for different deployments.23:33
SteveAsrichter: not sure how this would work with zcml.23:33
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srichterI am trying Wink :-)23:33
projekt01srichter, wink is pretty cool for that's open source.23:33
srichterSteveA: so you agree with me to put it in zope.conf?23:33
SteveAi have only caught the end of the discussion23:34
SteveAso i don't know what is being proposed23:34
srichterI propose to put the devmode on/off switch into zope.conf23:34
SteveAyes, that is where it should go23:34
SteveAzcml is about representing the glue we use to stick the app together23:35
srichterAll that will do is insert a feature into the ZCML context, so that certain packages only loaded selectively23:35
benji_yorkprojekt01, I don't think wink is OS, but it is free23:35
srichterthat's what I did for SchoolBell and works well and is logical23:35
SteveAsounds good to me23:35
SteveAwe do this in launchpad23:35
SteveAby having several "zcml root files"23:35
SteveAlike, site.zcml for the webapp23:35
SteveAscripts.zcml for scripts that load zcml before they run23:36
SteveAscripts.zcml omits zcml from the browser: namespace23:36
SteveAas well as a bunch of other stuff that scripts don't need23:36
srichterI see23:36
SteveAso, the way i'd do it is23:36
SteveAhave "developer.zcml" that includes "site.zcml" plus some other things23:37
SteveAthe switch already exists to say in the .conf file which root zcml to use23:37
SteveAso, i don't think it needs an extra switch or to do special things23:37
SteveAif anything, it should be just syntactic sugar for doing what i described23:37
srichtermmh, that's an intersting solution too23:37
SteveAthink of the price of the different solutions, in terms of their complexity and extra code to maintain23:38
projekt01benji_york, right23:38
srichterok, I put this down as an option23:39
benji_yorkwe use runzope's -X switch to change the top-level zcml to use23:39
benji_yorkfor such things23:39
SteveAsrichter: thanks23:39
srichterI really like it; even if developer.zcml just installs the "devmode" feature and then loads site.zcml23:39
SteveAit is discoverable23:40
benji_yorksrichter, one thing to consider: lets say you have a running site in production mode (non-dev), start having problems and want to diagnose the site without shutting it down or turning on dev-mode for anyone else23:42
SteveAbenji_york: here's what we do for that with launchpad23:42
SteveAwe have a layer called IDebugLayer23:42
srichterbenji_york: the dev-mode should never run on a production site23:42
SteveAthere's an http server running on a port that is accessible only to developers23:42
SteveAthis http server decorates the request by marking it IDebugLayer23:43
SteveAdevelopment-only features are registered to appear only on the IDebugLayer23:43
SteveAwe don't allow users to switch to the debug layer23:43
srichterit pokes a lot of security holes into the system23:43
benji_yorkSteveA, I like that23:43
SteveAalso, in production, we actually turn these things off, generally23:43
SteveAbut still, we would turn them on if needed, i guess23:44
SteveAbenji_york: i don't like how the debug skin is typically used in zope3 right now23:44
SteveAit's kinda random :-/23:44
srichterI guess we would need some sort of developer permission23:44
benji_yorkor block the ports from external access23:44
SteveAi think ++skin++ should be removed in general23:44
benji_yorksrichter, I'd  go with a network security solution (differenc ports, etc.)23:45
SteveAor be only available on the developer port23:45
SteveAmost of the ++ stuff is kinda crackful23:45
benji_yorkSteveA, right23:45
SteveAlike, users should never be able to see ++etc++23:45
srichterbenji_york: but part of the big proposal is that the dev mode stuff is not even loaded when in non-dev mode23:45
srichterthis is very important for security23:45
SteveAhaving the development view modular is important23:46
SteveAyou could use a zcml namespace to register them23:46
SteveA  dev-only:page etc.23:46
SteveAsame as browser:page, but on the IDevelopmentOnly layer23:46
benji_yorkright, I'm saying that there are two sets of things, a production/dev mode that affects how the server is configured, and a seperate set of developer tools that can be enabled/disabled23:46
SteveAso, you can easily cut out all development only stuff at the zcml level23:46
srichterthat's the way I went in SB23:46
SteveAand you can also choose to run the stuff out of a different port23:47
srichterok, that would need a separate proposal; I am only going to worry about a specific use case now23:47
srichtereverything else would need a very careful security review23:47
benji_yorkfor example, one of our projects uses Windows users/passwords for credentials in "production mode" and uses a set of fake users in "dev mode"23:48
srichterbenji_york: thanks for wink, seems to work well23:54
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