IRC log of #zope3-dev for Wednesday, 2005-08-24

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fdrakethere's a test failure on the Zope 3 trunk, w/ a clean checkout00:00
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srichterbenji_york: the final speed is even worse: the test before conversion ran steadily at 8 secs, now it needs 21 secs00:06
benji_yorkhmm, I'm adding profile support to the new test runner (we're using) so I can profile testbrowser :)00:07
J1mI'm seeing the same test failure00:13
J1mSomeone fixed a spelling error.00:14
srichtererich did check in a bunch of spelling errors00:15
J1mfdrake, this is easy to fix, but someone needs to spank him.00:16
fdrakeso it was 38046 that broke it?00:16
fdrakesounds like it from Benji's and my tests00:16
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fdrakei see it now; ok00:18
fdrakei'll fix and send Egon a note00:18
srichterprobably the branch is affected too00:19
fdrakelikely; I'll check and fix there if so00:19
fdrakeargh; too many checkouts!00:25
fdrakeok, all better now...  :-)00:41
fdrakesrichter, I've not seen a 3.1.0c2 release yet.00:41
fdrakedid I miss it?00:42
srichternope ;-)00:42
srichterpeople have lept fixing stuff00:42
fdrakeyou're running the risk that I'll change the build process again :-)00:42
srichterand I was really busy over the weekend, since my advisor managed to give me a lot of work :-(00:42
srichterthat's ok00:42
fdrakeit's not a small commit, if you decide you want it on the branch00:43
fdrakei'd rather move it to the branch after 3.1.000:43
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fdrakebut I might not be patient enough :-)00:44
fdrakeit's all I can do to wait for the tests to run on the trunk  :-)00:45
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fdrakeok, i can commit my changes now that Jim's not watching...00:49
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fdrakeJim will have a merry Wednesday morning when he sees what's under the "svn up".  :-)01:04
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fdrakesrichter, that's a huge build-process patch01:08
fdrakeyou should release 3.1.0 before I port it to the branch01:09
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yotawhat is the date release for zope 3.1 ?01:59
hazmatcan be used without security proxies just by removing the publishing wrapper?02:17
srichterhazmat: I think so03:01
srichterhazmat: you need to ensure that removeSecurityProxy() also works opn plain objects03:02
srichteryota: good question; I will do RC2 this week for sure03:02
srichterthere were just a lot of bug fixes recently03:02
yotagreat :)03:12
srichteryota: btw, what's your real name?03:18
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yotaI am not yet developer (maybe in a few times if i'm able to understand all Zope3 machinery :)  for now I work only on translation. My name is Sebastien Douche03:25
srichterah, nice to meet you sebastien03:25
srichterI saw that you were working on the french translations03:25
yotayes, currently for plone & zope303:26
srichteroh great, a prefessional translator! :-)03:26
yotaand surely for z3ecm03:26
yotahum, I hope that I will be able to make another things :)03:27
srichterme too ;-)03:27
yotaI want create french website and maybe write a book, for q3/q4 200603:31
yotayes, it is. Before, I must learn Zope3 !03:33
srichteryota: do you have a publisher already?03:39
yotano, the book is a projet03:41
yotastep by step, learn zope3 in depth, participate, coding stuff, increase my english skill ...03:44
srichteroh, you don't want to write in Fench?03:46
srichteroh, you don't want to write in French?03:46
yotayes in french, there are already 2 books in English ;)03:48
srichterright :-)03:50
yotabut to become an "expert", it is necessary to take part in sprints, ml discussions and thus to speak English. My english is broken/03:50
srichterI think France is a big market, sicne they support OSS so prominently03:51
srichteryota: are you coming to the Neckarsprint?03:51
yotanp, I'm not and I regret it.  I would like take part of zope3 & z3ecm develpment03:53
srichterit's not too late03:56
srichteryota: you can still come03:57
srichtermaybe you can travel with Florent and Julien03:57
yotanot it is too early.  My English level is still too low :)03:59
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yota3:00 AM, time to sleep03:59
yotagn srichter :)03:59
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bob2is it possible to have write changes to the ZODB?06:05
srichterI dunno06:11
bob2or is there another way to interactively poke at it?06:12
srichteraehm, of course you can use the debugger06:13
srichteras long as you commit the transaction06:13
bob2I guess that's my question then06:13
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bob2I want to have a permission system such that some users can add some object to some containers06:42
bob2but not others06:42
bob2is this going to need a new security policy?06:42
srichterjust give those principals that can add stuff to the container the permission to do so (local permission)06:49
bob2I guess I can't see how to configure this outside of zcml06:49
srichterits just a matter of setting up the security mappings correctly06:51
srichteris done via some adapters06:51
bob2can you point me at any examples06:52
srichterjust look what the view code of the grant view is doing06:52
bob2your and phillipp's books don't seem to cover this sort of thing06:52
srichterwell, schooltool has some security setup code in python06:52
srichterbecause it is not needed this often06:52
srichterthough I demonstrate the grant view06:53
bob2do "normal" apps statically configure permissions in zcml?06:53
srichterwell, you declare the permissions in ZCML06:53
srichterhowever, ST very much relies on local permissions06:53
bob2local permissions = permissions applied to a certain object?06:53
bob2(just want to clarify)06:53
bob2thanks again :)06:59
bob2it doesn't sound like that uncommon a use case07:05
bob2surely in CMS's its common for only the marketing manager to be able to update /buyourstuff/ or whatever07:05
bob2hm, I mean, is this uncommon, not implemented yet, or am I looking at it wrong and thus missing the obvious solution?07:06
srichterno, it is all implemented07:06
srichterall there07:06
srichterschooltool uses very fined grained security control07:07
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bob2what's the best way to initialise startup services for a zope3 system?09:55
bob2e.g. setup a logger09:55
bob2just hack runzope?09:55
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bob2are events handled in the same thread that triggered them?10:22
Theunishould be that we10:26
Theunishould be that way10:26
bob2hm, dang10:26
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andrew_mcan someone please tell me if that configuration for adapting a content object to ILockable looks correct?:12:11
andrew_m <adapter12:11
andrew_m      for=".interfaces.ICEContent"12:11
andrew_m      provides=""12:11
andrew_m      factory=""12:11
andrew_m      permission="ceng.EditContent"12:11
andrew_m      />12:11
andrew_mthe LockingAdapterFactory doc says "This should be registered against zope.interface.Interface to provide adaptation to ILockable.".. not sure what that means12:13
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* drzoltron_ says hi12:56
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andrew_mhi philiKON: do you happen to know the locking package of zope?13:56
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andrew_mphuu.. got locking working.. strongly suggest that module documentation should also contain hints about how to configure the module and what other special modules have to be installed to make it work (in this case
benji_yorkandrew_m, I guess the locking package didn't have zpackage metadata14:20
J1mBy "installed", I assume he meant configured,14:21
benji_yorkahh, ok14:21
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andrew_mwell.. had to put into package-includes14:21
benji_yorkthat means zope 3 needs layered tests14:21
srichterI want to try a new approach to evolutions14:22
J1mIn this case, better documentation would probably sufficed.14:22
srichterST does not have to worry about API BBB at this point14:22
J1mgood documentation isn't easy.14:22
srichteronly data compat14:22
srichterI would really like to hook into the broken object support and look up the new class via a mapping14:23
srichterdo you think this is a good approach?14:23
srichterST = SchoolTool14:23
benji_yorkJ1m, yeah, that wouldn't hurt, but I'm a fan of executable documentation :)14:24
srichterI tried an evolution script that converts broken objects to classes14:24
J1mIt would be nice to come up with better data migration strategies for ZODB.14:24
srichterhowever, we have circular references and a simple recurrence model does not help14:24
J1mbenji_york, well, in this case, the setup code would probably have given some insights and probably should have been presented in the documentation.14:26
andrew_mbenji_york: the docu was runnable, but i had to 'map' the test code into configuration which harder than having an example configuration in the doc14:26
andrew_mis harder14:26
andrew_malso some things in the test are done by zope, some things i have to do14:26
J1msrichter, generally, for evolution, I would want to have the old classes around until the evolution was complete.14:27
benji_yorkJ1m and andrew_m, right, I was saying that if it had been zcml to start with, it would have been more helpful14:27
benji_yorkno biggie, just an observation14:27
andrew_mbenji_york: yep14:27
J1mIt sounds like, in your case, you really want to convert object graphs, rather than individual objects.14:27
srichteryeah, this is just really painful in this case, since I got rid of an entire package, and I would have to at least simulate until the evolution is done14:27
J1mCan't you get the package back?14:28
srichterwell, I want to do this as a last resort14:28
srichterI did only rearraning, so I could simply have an empty shell that imports the classes from their new location14:30
srichterI really just want to specify a mapping of old_class_path -> new_class_path and the ZODB should do the right thing14:32
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J1msrichter, the usual way to do this is via aliasing14:32
srichterbut aliasing works only for modules, right?14:33
J1mI thought you were doing more than moving classes around14:33
srichterbut I split packages14:33
srichterso there was a lot of stuff in, not it is in st.person.person,, ...14:33
srichterso there was a lot of stuff in, now it is in st.person.person,, ...14:34
srichtercan module aliasing do this?14:34
J1mGive me an example of a changed class path,14:35
srichterok14:35 --> schooltool.person.person.PersonContainer14:35 --> schooltool.person.person.Person14:35
J1mand is gone?14:35
srichterno, this one is not, but:14:36
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srichter(there are several SomeObject cases, not just one)14:36
J1mso is gone?14:37
J1mok. so anyway,14:37
srichteractually was a module and is now a package14:37
J1myou could import these classes into
J1mOr. you could poke them there.14:38
srichterwhat sbout the schoolbell case?14:38
J1mbtw, your module depreication code is rather expensive.14:39
srichterwe can look at it next week14:39
J1mso is gone?14:39
J1mso is gone?14:39
J1mok, so you create a fake module and poke/import the classes there.14:40
srichterI am thinking about hooking into ZODB.serialize.ObjectReader.getClassName; if I can insert my mapping there, I am fine14:41
srichterright, though I think this is sub-optimal14:41
srichterit makes all this much harder than it should be14:41
J1mI'd rather you not hack ZODB.14:41
J1mFeel free to propose a mechanism.14:41
srichterwill Tim be in F12g next week?14:42
srichtermaybe I can discuss some ideas with him14:42
srichteror you for that matter :-)14:42
J1mBut, I suspect that introducting some ZODB registry is no better than using sys.modules.14:42
J1mIt would be nice to include Tim.14:42
J1mI'll try to arrange some time with him.14:43
J1mThe party might be the best time though, assuming that he's coming.14:43
srichterI am playing around with it this week anyways, so I will have some experience by then14:43
srichterJ1m: oh, we need to come up with some topics for next week14:44
J1mwidget/form cleanup is one.14:44
J1mI think Gary might write up a proposal.14:45
srichterI originally thought about developing proposals for some of the upcoming work, but we can also code (I don't care)14:45
J1mI think Dylan is interested in working in that area.14:45
srichterI definitely want to talk to you and Gary about the twisted integration and the server startup code cleanup that will come with it. I have the use cases which I should write down until next week14:46
J1mBoth Gary and benji_york will participate.  Perhaps Fred.14:47
benji_yorkJim, I just wish Benji and fdrake were going to be there <wink>14:50
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MJJust when something interesting is possible with a GMail account I find that mine has expired.14:59
MJShould've used it once in  while..14:59
MJbenji_york: Yes14:59
MJI want to see what extra services they added.14:59
srichterMJ: I am checking in KMail every so often14:59
MJYeah, should have done so too15:00
MJSo, are invites still thick on the ground these days or am I out of luck?15:00
MJsrichter: I am shocked..15:01
MJYou don't know it? ;)15:01
MJor whatever you fancy before the @15:02
srichterMJ sent15:02
MJWhy don't they delete useful gmail names when expired..15:03
MJWell I'll be darned15:05
MJNow my ole account is active again.15:05
MJMust be the beta part in action.15:05
MJThanks anyway Stephan, it turns out I can still use the old account.15:06
MJ50 invites to go..15:06
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fdrakehas anyone tested the updated zpkg-based build on Windows?16:46
hdimafdrake: seems like functional tests is broken now for svn checkouts..16:47
fdrakejust for Windows?16:47
hdimasince 'zopeskel/etc/package-includes/' is empty16:47
* hdima use Linux16:48
fdrakedo you build using make?16:48
fdrakeor python build_ext -i ?16:48
fdrakeuse make  :-)16:48
J1mprobably need to tell people they need to run make in existing checkouts16:48
hdimaOh, seems like I need to rebuild all... :-)16:48
fdrakethe command should be:16:48
fdrakepython build_ext -i install_data --install-dir .16:49
fdrakeyeah; i'll send a note to zope3-dev16:49
hdimaIt's works now, thanks16:54
J1mfdrake, it would be good to create a short page on how to setup zpkg info for simple Python packages.17:01
fdrakeyes, will do17:02
J1mThis should be aimed at package developers who don't need to actually use the zpkg tools.17:02
fdrakeright; basically just DEPENDENCIES.cfg and SETUP.cfg, right?17:02
J1myes, and perhaps menion the other one.17:03
J1m(that has release meta data)17:03
J1myes, and perhaps mention the other one.17:03
fdrakehmm, yeah, PACKAGE.cfg is somewhat useful, though unusual for simple packages17:03
fdrakeand PUBLICATION.cfg is only useful for something that's directly releasable (for someone using zpkg directly)17:04
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__gotchasrichter: hi17:20
__gotchasrichter: have you heard of effort to pot apidoc to Five ?17:20
__gotchawould that be easy ? does apidoc depends a lot on zope 3 ?17:20
srichterapidoc is 100% Zope 3 specific17:21
srichterand I mean in the way the data is collected17:21
__gotchawould be nice though to be able to use apidoc for the five part of 2.817:21
benji_yorksrichter, I just added an optimization to ClientForm that sped up a test run of zope.testbrowser's README.txt from (a three-run average) of 6.96 seconds to 6.23 seconds17:21
srichterit knows very specifically how to tickle information out of view factories, etc17:21
srichterbenji_york: oh, cool;17:22
__gotchasrichter: iow, very few chance to port it to Five without a lot of work17:22
srichter__gotcha: well, you would have to write all the inspection code yourself17:22
srichter__gotcha: Would you want this port to work on Zope 2 objects as well?17:23
__gotchafirst on five objects17:23
__gotchalets be humble and realistic17:23
srichterIf they are similar enough to the usual Zope 3 way of registering and reuse those directives, it is possible17:24
srichterI would just try it17:24
__gotchaI just tried to inluce apidoc configure.zcml and it chokes on the class directive17:24
__gotchaIll have to look deeper later17:24
__gotchaIll contact you back after reading apidoc code17:24
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benji_yorkJ1m, I got profiling working in the new test runner, including combining each subprocess' data into the final report17:30
mgedmin"the new test runner"?  where is it?17:33
J1mI assume you figured out how to combine pstat files.17:33
benji_yorkJ1m, nope, the pstat.Stat objects have a method that will combine the data from one object to another, so I just generate a file for each subjprocess and then combine them together at the end17:34
J1misn't that what I said?17:34
benji_yorkthere is a problem though, I hit a bug in 2.4.1 with the profiler (already fixed in CVS) that, strangely, means you can only profile the tests when using the -O option to Python17:34
benji_yorkJ1m, sure  :)17:35
J1mmgedmin, perhaps I'll switch the z3 trunk to use it this week.17:35
J1mbenji_york, interesting17:35
J1mGood thing we don't require 2.4 ;)17:35
benji_yorkJ1m, using the profiler I've already made an improvement to (Gary's pending version of) ClientForm that sped up zc.task tests from 34 seconds to 2917:36
benji_yorkJ1m, I *believe* the bug also exists in 2.3, I'll have to double-check though17:36
J1mI suppose this means that you could profile the tests only.17:37
J1m(without having to profile the test runner at the same time)17:37
benji_yorkJ1m, nope, I haven't put any effort into isolating the test code, but I don't think it would be too hard to do that17:38
benji_yorkJ1m, the bug is also in 2.3.417:38
J1mMust be fixed in 2.3.5 :)17:39
benji_yorkor, maybe :)17:40
benji_yorknope, can't be in 2.3.5 because the bug wasn't discovered and fixed until after 2.3.5 shipped17:41
benji_yorkzope 3.1 should require 2.4.2  <evil grin>17:42
fdrakethat works for me  :-)17:45
stubJ1m: Would you object to the new test runner supporting something similar to my resources? A resource as I think of it would be identical to the existing layers, so the change would be a test could specify multiple layers instead of just one.17:49
stuberm... in english that means 'Make the new test runner support tests that specify multiple layers instead of just one'17:50
J1mI think that would be fine, especially if you implemented it including tests. :)17:52
benji_yorkJ1m, because of the requirement to run in optimized mode for the profiler, I can't think of a good way to do tests for the profiler code...17:56
benji_yorkso should I just sit on the changes?17:56
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J1mHm, what is the issue with the profiler and -O?17:57
J1mI use the profiler all the time without -O.17:57
benji_yorkit's complicated, I can explain if you want, but the bottom line is that you can't run bin/test --profile unless you also run Python with -O17:58
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stubJ1m: ok. The other issue that got brought up in discussions with my cow orkers was that the seperation of powers seems wrong. One idea seems to be that the testrunner should assemble the list of tests, stuffing them in a test suite and then calls The test cases inherit from a common base class which contains the intelligence to setup the layers if they are not already setup, and to tear down the layers if they are not needed18:04
stubJ1m: The advantage being that you could use any test runner, such as a GUI, and have the tests still use all the correct layer fixtures18:05
stubBut I think that is a longer term thing, and you might not agree. There are extra tricks needed to keep functionality, such as the TestSuite needing to fork in order to restart the tests in a new process.18:06
stubI also don't know if I personally can be bothered for Launchpad, but I think there are rumblings for a better test environment for the Bazaar project and possibly some other bits and pieces.18:07
mgedminthis might not be exactly relevant, but recently we started experimenting with a distributed test runner (rsync source into N machines, use ssh + python on the other end to run the test runner in slave mode; report results as they come locally)18:08
mgedminthe current prototype mostly works and is based on SchoolTool's test runner, but I'd like to base in on the Z3 one18:08
mgedminfor that I need to asking the test runner to run tests one by one18:09
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stubIf yielded results as they came in, that would work (and again, you could plug in a different front end instead of TextTestRunner or whatever)18:11
stub(if that is what you were referring too)18:12
ignasstub, and if you want to run the test1 from the test suite on slave1 and test2 + test3 on slave2 ...18:12
mgedminstub, currently we create a bunch of TestSuites that contain one test each, then pick the results form a custom TestResult class18:14
stubignas: What my co workers were suggesting is pretty much to just move that intelligence from the test runner into the test suite, which makes the front end pluggable.18:14
* stub isn't fussed either way personally, since I've never wanted to use a GUI testrunner18:14
fdrakeBasic information on the build/packaging support files is documented at
fdrakeI think that's link from a reasonable place (
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J1mstub, another use case is to be able to select tests by layer.18:37
J1mlayers might also be a nice basis for distribution of processing.18:38
J1mRun layer 1 on machine 1, layer 2 on machine 2, and so on.18:38
J1mOf course, if you have a layer per test ... :)18:39
stubJ1m: Ok. That would involve passing more information into the TestSuite, which will annoy the xUnit nazis who were pushing this ;)18:39
stubJ1m: Nah - I'll just have a mix of about 1-7 layers per test ;)18:39
J1mBut the test runner already has logic for combining results from payers when they are run in separate subprocesses.18:40
J1mright, I view each mix as a layer.18:40
J1mIn fact, if I was to implement support for multiple layers, I *might* implement it by actually defining layers on the fly.18:41
stubYes - that was how I was thinking of doing it. It could have been done using a helper that generates the class on the fly, except that we then couldn't run all the tests that 'mix-in' the librarian layer for example.18:43
stubie. class Foo(TestCase): layer = build_layer(Librian, Db, XmlRPC)18:43
stubso  list of layers would be better, and the test runner would know that the test doesn't care in which order the layers are setup and can optimize the order appropriately, but in the above spelling the test runner couldn't tell if it was a mix of layers or a 'traditional' layer.18:57
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fdrakesrichter, what's the schedule for 3.1.0c2?20:35
srichterthis week :-)20:35
fdrakemy weeks end on Wednesdays, how about yours?  :-)20:36
srichterSunday :-)20:37
fdrakesheesh, your week is busted :-)20:37
srichter(remember that in my books the last day of the week is Sunday -- I am from Europe)20:37
fdrakeand in my books, I want 3.1.0 out, so I can merge all the build changes in without touching 3.1.020:38
srichteryep, I know20:39
srichterI don't mind if someone else starts the process20:39
srichterI am just extremely busy, but I am getting done20:40
fdrakeI don't even remember the process.20:40
fdrakeAnd no, I don't read wikis.  :-)20:40
srichterI just follow MakeARelease all the time :-)20:41
fdrakeSomehow, I suspect that's a wiki page.  Since I wrote it, I'm incapable of reading it.20:42
fdrake(wrote it initially, that is)20:42
srichterno, I initally wrote it, but you worked on it  alot20:43
fdrakeI'm supposed to be trying to get the Zope 2 trunk to use a new-style zpkg-based build.20:44
fdrakeIt's been a long time since I've looked at that.  :-(20:44
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fdrakei guess there's still a zope-dev for Zope 2...20:56
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fdrakeguess not...20:56
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srichterzope-dev for Zope 2?20:57
fdrakeright...., looks like there's just #zope20:58
fdrakeI'll get over it.  ;-)20:59
srichteroh, I see20:59
srichterif you feel better I join #zope-dev, though I have no clue :-)21:00
fdrakenah, don't bother, but thanks for the offer ;-)21:00
fdrakei'm more interested in whether anyone already there has a clue21:01
fdrakeor if there are still even people attached to those nicks21:02
srichterhe he21:03
fdrakefeels like a graveyard over there....21:03
srichterhe he21:06
fdrakemaybe all the remaining Zope 2 users are in Europe, and safely tucked into bed....21:07
srichteryou know this is probably true21:17
fdrakemakes me wonder what happened to all the Aussies21:19
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benji_yorksrichter, ayt?23:48
srichterbenji_york: pong23:49
benji_yorkwhen you get a chance try out the latest testbrowser on your tests that went from 8 seconds to 21, I've made the tests (that I've been profiling) run about twice as fast23:49
srichteroh, awesome23:49
srichterlet me make a checkin and then update my testbrowser version23:50
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srichterbenji_york: it is quiet  abit fast; from 22 to 17 secs23:58
srichterso 25% increase23:58
srichterpretty good23:58

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