IRC log of #zope3-dev for Tuesday, 2005-09-06

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mpyou have to check whether pricipal provides interface00:13
mproym: for example if user has logged in: not IUnauthenticatedPrincipal.providedBy(self.request.principal)00:13
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roymfrom reading the tests, it looks like principalRoleManager.getRolesForPrincipal(principal)00:49
roym should work; however in my tests, I am getting an empty list.00:49
roymwhere principalRoleManager is zope/app/securitypolicy/principalrole/principalRoleManager00:50
roymand principal is request/principal00:50
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Lewyhi, what product would you recommend as a clear example of a component architecture? I know TextIndexNG, ShoolBell, but maybe there are any simpler ;)14:09
algazope.event is the simplest ;-)14:10
LewyI see :) I would like to redesign my Plone Product's skeleton using Five to make it reusable when I will be more z3 guru ;)14:13
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roymhow would I get the role(s) for a given principal? running principalRoleManager.getRolesForPrincipal(self.request.principal) returns an empty list.14:19
regebroroym: getRolesInContext is usually a good idea.14:42
roymregebro: where is this defined? (searched the entire trunk and couldn't find it).14:58
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projekt01roym, use principal id (there's a little mess in the security API method names, but the interface tells you the right attribute)15:29
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projekt01roym, getRolesForPrincipal(principal_id)15:31
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regebroroym: Pfah. Wrong channel. I was thinking Zope2.15:43
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srichtersome good words about Z3:
benji_yorkyep, I saw that one.  It made me think we couldn't write a better PR blurb :)16:51
srichterright :-)16:53
srichterpeople start coming out of the closet ;-)16:53
projekt01Hm, this make me think about that I should send a showcase to srichter too ;-)16:56
benji_yorksrichter, :)16:56
srichterprojekt01: yep, or even better put in on your site and send a link to zope3-dev16:56
projekt01Ok, I'll write something and we can translate it at the sprint.16:57
projekt01Hm, a xpdl workflow for a i18n implementation isn't that easy if you have to manage each language in a own process.17:00
projekt01srichter, the use17:00
projekt01case will contain xpdl workflow and i18n17:01
projekt01use case/showcase17:01
srichtermmh, localizing a document does not have the same workflow as originally authoring it17:03
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projekt01srichter, what do you mean with; not the same?17:04
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srichterprojekt01: authoring and translating are not necessarily the same process17:06
srichterauthoring includes the approval of the correctness of the content17:06
srichterthis correctness is usually verified by another subject-matter-expert.17:07
srichteror a chief-editor17:07
projekt01Yes, this means we have to add a activity for translation. That's all I think.17:07
srichtertranslating is very different (trust me, my wife executes this workflow every day at work)17:08
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srichtercontent authoring is usually done by the company that provides a product17:08
srichtertranslation is commonly done by a localization provider17:08
srichterthe company often just gets a verified translation from the provider17:08
srichterif you also want to model the provider's workflow, you need to work much harder17:09
srichterthere is actually an ISO that most companies follow that describes this process17:09
projekt01Do you know where I can find that?17:10
srichteralso note that the roles of the involved parties are quite different17:10
srichterprojekt01: I would have to ask my wife.17:10
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benji_yorkmore Z3 PR:
srichterbenji_york: yeah, and he addresses the Python 2.4 issue17:33
srichterMy opinion that Zope 3.2 should require Py 2.4 becomes stronger17:34
benji_yorksrichter, my opinion cannot become any stronger :)17:34
srichterI am almost at the point where I would say: If the Z2 developers don't get their act together and do a security review for Py 2.4 till November, then Zope 2.9 has to ship with Zope 3.1.x17:35
srichterbenji_york: is it strong enough to take it up with Jim :-)17:35
benji_yorkbeen there, I wasn't successfull17:35
srichteryou see, your opinion is not strong enough :-)17:35
benji_yorkI wish I knew more about the Z2 community, I don't know how important it is for them to go to 2.4 or how important Zope 3.1 is to them17:36
benji_yorkno, it's just that my desire for continued employment is stronger than my desire for 2.4  :)17:36
J1mIt is important that the barrier between Z2 and X3 diminish.17:36
J1mIt is important that the barrier between Z2 and Z3 diminish.17:37
J1mFive is a critical project.17:37
J1mWe need to support Z3 in Z2 and we can't afford to support 2 versions of Z3.17:37
srichterhowever, currently we stagnate Z3's development because of it and this is unacceptable I think17:37
srichterunless supporting two Z3 releases is "cheaper" (in some sense of cheap) than stagnating the development17:38
projekt01J1m, it's also important that we can make some steps forward.17:38
* J1m bites his tongue17:38
J1mOh come on17:38
J1mwe can make steps forward wo 2.417:39
srichterhe he :-)17:39
srichterbenji_york: btw, good point and LOL :-)17:39
benji_yorkeven though I *really* want 2.4, I don't know that we're "stagnating" z3 dev, perhaps just a public commitment of supporting both 2.3 and 2.4 would be enough17:39
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srichterbenji_york: but there is none, that's the problem17:40
srichterpeople hear about testbrowser and zc.formlib and want to use it, especially for commercial projects17:40
srichterso they switch to Python 2.417:40
J1mI doubt significant effort is required to make them work w 2,4,17:41
benji_yorkfor testbrowser srichter has already done the significant effort17:41
srichterJ1m: what is "them"? or do you mean 2.3?17:41
J1mIn fact, I would say that progress is being prevented by a stubborn refusal to make these work w 2.3.17:41
J1mformlib and testbrowser17:41
benji_yorkwe should say that testbrowser and formlib *will* be in 3.2, and the requirement of 2.4 will be considered seperately17:42
srichterI made testbrowser work with 2.3, even so we decided later to switch to 2.4 for ST17:42
J1mInclusion of them is not contingent on 2.4.17:42
srichterbenji_york: right17:42
benji_yorkbut I still want 2.4!  :|17:43
J1mWe *need* Zope 2.17:43
J1mWe need to start working on making Z2 and Z3 merge.17:43
srichterI personally just don't like the fact that the lack of Z2 development commitment hijacks Z3's development process17:43
benji_yorklike, I said, I understand the 2/3 synergy, but from a purely z3 world-view, the move to 2.4 is a no-brainer, but we unfortunately don't have that luxury17:44
srichterso we need to ask: who profits from this synergy and apply pressure on them?17:44
J1msrichter, so become more committed to Z2.17:44
regebroAre there problems with Py2.4 and Zope 2?17:45
regebroAnd in that case, what kind of pb?17:45
srichterJ1m: why? I have been off of Zope 2 for 3-4 years and I only work on pure Z3 projects.17:45
srichterregebro: the problem is that noone knows and it needs to be verified that there are no problems17:45
regebrosrichter: OK. How can that be verified (other than running unit tests, which I assume has been done, since  it's trivial),17:46
srichterregebro: don't ask me; I have never done a security review17:47
SteveAi imagine the main concern is TTW code in zope 2.17:47
benji_yorkregebro, it requires a *careful* examination of the changes between 2.3 and 2.4 and how those interact with Z2 security17:47
srichterJ1m: is there some sort of guideline for the review?17:47
projekt01btw, we run our project in production on python 2.4. And our additional 2'200 tests run also well with python 2.417:47
benji_yorkdoes anyone know if the Five folks (who presumably want 2.4 in Z2) could be persuaded to put some effort into this?17:48
regebroNot many people can do that review...17:48
srichterregebro: that's the problem17:48
srichterbenji_york: I can only think of Martijn and Andreas being knowledgable and interested enough17:49
J1mUnfortunately, it requires knowledge if the Z2 security framework which %$#@! needs to be relaced.17:49
J1mUnfortunately, it requires knowledge if the Z2 security framework which %$#@! needs to be replaced.17:49
srichterwho could do that type of work?17:50
J1mI think people familiar with the Z3 protection scheme (or who want to be) could contribute.17:50
srichtereven if this work is done, it would not be the default for 2.917:50
J1mYes, but until we take the first step, we'll be in the same position.17:51
SteveAi think "relaced" is a good description of what needs doing with the z2 security system.17:51
J1mGood point. :)17:51
regebroMy suggestion here are strictly off the record: i did not say this:17:51
regebroStart using Python 2.4 if you need to. The Zope2 people will then HAVE to use Python 2.4 and will then HAVE to make the security review.17:52
regebroI wish I could do ot, but I don't know enough about the finer intricate details...17:53
benji_yorkregebro, as much as *I* would like that, it doesn't seem feasable in the larger picture17:53
srichterregebro: this only works if you do not have synchronized releases, which we do17:53
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regebrook, if you say so, although I'm not sure I understand why. We then are a bit up shit creek...17:54
benji_yorkregebro, it's just not nice to say (in the context of one open source project to another), now that you include our code, we dictate what you will do17:55
J1mThese are not two different projects.17:56
srichterbenji_york: though we are having the inverse case of that right now :-)17:56
SteveA<contentious curmudgeon>i think zope3 is too big.  the "default pseudo CMS" should be an entirely separate thing.  if that were the case, then the smaller "core" could be distributed as depending on python 2.3, and common to zope3 and zope2.  the UI parts can be considered a separate project, depend on python 2.4, and have no zope2 dependency.</contentious curmudgeon>17:57
srichterJ1m: they are not two different projects, but they have a different developer base17:57
benji_yorkI didn't say unrelated, but I definately see  them as distinct17:57
benji_yorkam I misunderstanding the dynamics?17:57
srichterand to make it even more complex17:57
J1mWe have a single Zope Community.17:58
projekt01J1m, do you really belive if we make a stop and get z2 to a state where it is working for z3, that would be the last time we have this problem?17:58
J1mWe need to think about what's best for that community.17:58
J1mprojekt01, I have no idea what you are talking about.17:58
J1mZope, for people working on Five:17:59
srichterZ2 devs do not need to know Z3 to do work and Z3 people do not need Z2 to have projects; only sometimes (relatively small right now, but we hope to have an increase) Z2 devs care to know and use Z317:59
J1mhow would *you* feel if:17:59
J1m- You were limited to Python 2.317:59
J1m- Nobody working on cool Z3 tools bothered to support Python 2.3 (bacase They can support newer versionf of Python and don't give a %$^& about your needs18:00
J1m- *You* had to support Zope 3.1 yourself (as you have 3.0).18:00
projekt01I would do my development with z2 and it's following release or develop on the core migration. But I whould not except that someone else does this job now.18:01
benji_yorkI think I understand the "whole community" take on things...18:01
J1mFive developers, how would you like to live with the 3 points I made above?18:01
SteveAwhat in formlib actually depends on python 2.4?18:02
regebroI do feel that Zope2 stopping a move to a more current Python version is a very bad thing.18:02
benji_yorkI also think I understand that there may not be the will/desire/resources in the z2 community to do the work and I understand the secondary benefits to Z3 of having a healthy Z218:02
faassenregebro: I agree, Zope 2 should work with Python 2.418:02
J1mSteveA, nothing of significance.18:02
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faassenI missed the beginning of this discussion.18:02
regebroWell, essentially, moving to Py2.4 means Zope2 eeds a security review.18:03
faassenanyway, I think the best world would be if Zope 2.9 and Zope 3.2 needed Python 2.418:03
faassenyeah, I know that.18:03
regebroAnd few people know how to do that.18:03
regebroAnd fewer of them want to.18:03
faassenwell, what if Jim just tells you and me to do it at the castle.18:03
regebroAnd none of those have the time.18:03
faassenand then you and I do it?18:03
faassenI mean, Jim tells us *how* to do it.18:03
srichterfaassen: the problem is that there is noone that wants/can do that security review in time18:03
regebroI have nowhere near the insight into the security system to be able to do that.18:04
faassenis this because of my blog entry? :)18:04
srichterfaassen: I also mentioned earlier that you are one of the few that I could think of that were qualified to do the review18:04
faassensrichter: I don't know whether I'd be qualified, but I'd just need to learn what's going on.18:04
faassensrichter: right now I know as much as you do.18:04
J1mWhat I'd really like to see is someone to volunteer to port the Zope 3 protection system to Zope 2.18:04
regebroI can give you moral support at the castle entry. And fetch you coffee? :)18:04
srichterfaassen: your blog entry made my opinion stronger so I brought it up one more time :-)18:05
J1mI'm willing to do the security review but I'm not willing to do it forever.18:05
faassensrichter: good. :)18:05
faassenJ1m: yeah, and I'm willing to help with that port, but I don't want the Zope 2.9 release to depend on it.18:05
J1mZope 2's protection scheme is a big pile of technical debt.18:05
J1mfaassen, agrees18:05
J1mfaassen, agreed18:05
faassenI know the Zope 3 security system better than the Zope 2 system already. :)18:05
J1mThe security reviews are some of the interest on that debt.18:06
SteveAJ1m: there's a change i want to make to the zope3 security system that i discussed with tres at europython that might make it easier to apply it to zope2.  i want to talk with you about it sometime.18:06
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faassenanyway, what if we:18:06 th following:18:06
J1mSteveA, k18:06
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faassen* I commit some resources to help Jim with porting the Z3 security to Z2. I hope other Five people will jump in.18:06
srichterJ1m: faassen: I would be willing to come to another sprint to get the Z3 security system moved over to Z218:06
faassen* Jim does the security review for Zope 2.918:06
* J1m jumps for joy!18:06
faassen* we release 2.9 and Zope 3.2 with Zope 2.9, but for Zope 2.10 we plan the ported security system.18:07
* benji_york is startled to see J1m *actually* jump for joy18:07
* faassen laughs.18:07
faassenI mean, I do have some minor amount of experience in porting stuff to Zope 2 from Zope 3. :)18:07
J1mfaassen, sound slike a great plan to me,18:08
J1mfaassen, sounds like a great plan to me,18:08
faassencool! we can work out the details at the castle.18:08
regebroI'll listen in, and if I'll understand the plan for the porting of the security system, I'll help.18:09
faassenbasically what I want to do at the castle is start porting over Five to 3.1 (well, 3.2, but that isn't there yet), and now we can also discuss the port of the security system.18:09
regebro(Currently I have no picture of how to do that, but if I get a picture...)18:09
faassenregebro: I have a somewhat comprehensive picture of Zope 3's system, though I'm sure I miss a lot of details.18:10
srichterDoes this mean we can approve:
srichterwhen is the Castle sprint?18:10
faassensrichter: also sneak in an approval of the lxml inclusion! *wink nudge*18:11
srichterI am +1 on that already18:11
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projekt01J1m, fassen, if you have a free place at the castle sprint I'm willing to help too.18:11
faassensrichter: 22-24, if I recall correctly, this month.18:11
srichterfaassen: only J1m has to say +1 on that18:11
projekt01fassen, 1+ for the lxml18:11
faassenprojekt01: hm, you should get Jim to tell the castle sprint people to get you over. :)18:12
srichterfaassen: does lxml require Py 2.4?18:12
faassensrichter: nope, it works with 2.3.18:12
faassensrichter: I just thought I'd just sneak it in. :)18:12
srichterfaassen: what was the think with PyRex?18:12
faassensrichter: Pyrex has some bug which makes it not work with gcc 4.0 unless you apply patches, is that what you mean?18:13
faassensrichter: but that's separate from the 2.3 issue.18:13
faassensrichter: and it's possible to distribute a version of lxml that doesn't depend on Pyrex, just has the pregenerated c sources. just nobody has done that yet.18:13
srichterfaassen: no, I mean more the requirement of PyRex18:13
J1mfaassen, what is your current thinking on whether lxml should be included vs being required (a prerequisite)?18:13
faassensrichter: but Julien volunteered for that I think.18:13
faassenJ1m: what does 'included' mean? as a package that is there in the distribution but nobody else can use it?18:14
J1m+1 wrt not requiring pyrex18:14
srichterfaassen: ok, I would really prefer to make the PyRex requirement optional18:14
faassensrichter: yeah, everybody does. I'll just prod Julien. :)18:14
J1mfaassen, by "include" I mean, "Zope distro includes lxml".18:15
faassenJ1m: ah, you mean you can require it as a dependency versus include it and then you don't need to require anyone to install anything..18:15
srichterfaassen: no, I think more the distinction between making it a vendor import versus a Zope 3 repos maintained package18:15
J1mNote that including or requiring lxml in Z3 aldo means the same for Z2,18:15
faassenJ1m: inclusion would be better for the out of the box experience.18:15
J1mfaassen, I agree.18:16
faassenJ1m: but it also means work to ship libxml2 and so on along, which is a big bite. perhaps it's more sensible to do this in Zope 3.3.18:16
srichterI think that lxml should be at least part of the Zope 3 build and we should be able to rely on it in Zope 318:16
J1mBTW, I recently tried to install lxml with Fedora Core 2 and ran into difficulties because my libxml library was old.18:16
faassenJ1m: yeah, there are some dependency issues. it tends to install pretty well on recent fedora's, though the most recent again uses gcc 4.0 which requires a pyrex patch. dependencies are a pain. :)18:17
J1msorry, Fedora Core 118:17
SteveAJ1m: the ubuntu developers use zope3, so it ought to work pretty well on ubuntu ;-)18:17
* J1m needs to try ubuntu18:18
srichterJ1m: OT: are you working on the publisher branch right now?18:20
J1msrichter, no18:22
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efgeJ1m, faassen: I can contribute some time to porting the Z3 security to Z2 too18:44
J1mWay cool18:45
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faassenefge: great. :)18:50
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fdrakesrichter, did you see what I had to do for ZEO.mkzeoinst?19:37
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GaryPosteryo srichter. :-)  I've got an APIdoc bug: you want it in the collector or do you prefer some other mechanism?20:07
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fdrakeGaryPoster, he looks in the collector eventually  :-)20:19
GaryPosterfdrake: ok cool.  So we just need the collector to work now. ;-) :-(20:21
fdrakeyeah, minor details, huh?20:21
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SteveAGaryPoster: if you want to switch to using launchpad to track issues, i can get someone to write an importer of existing issues from the collector20:23
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GaryPosterSteveA: That's a reasonable and gracious idea.  I just highlighted that to Jim: it's up to mgmt.  The foundation plans are another part of the story, though.20:25
benji_yorkSteveA, I've been personally interested in Launchpad, any idea when a public release will happen (or did I miss it?)20:28
SteveAwhat does "public release" mean?20:29
benji_yorkis the code available?20:30
SteveAno, it's a propriatory application.  some elements of it are being opened, but not the whole thing right now.20:30
benji_yorkahh, ok, I must  have mis-understood something20:30
SteveAmanagement have stated publicly an intention to open it up at some point under an open source licence.20:31
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benji_yorkok, that's probably what I was thinking about20:32
benji_yorkI'm personally interested, so +1 to opening it  :)20:32
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SteveAthe webapp platform part can be open sourced, but it's a matter of finding the time to split it out from the rest of the domain-specific stuff and package it as a separate project.20:33
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srichterfdrake: no, I don't get ZODB checkins, so I really want to become more involved in it.22:15
fdrakeah, ok22:16
fdrakethe email on the zope3-dev and zope3-checkins should clarify22:16
fdrakeif not, let me know and I'll be glad to explain what we did22:16
fdrakewhether you wanna cut a new RC is up to you22:16
srichterI think we need it22:17
srichterso I have to send out a message to zope3-dev22:17
srichterI think there were some other bugs discovered in the RC22:17
fdrakeok, then you know how to do that  :-)22:17
fdrakeah, ok22:18
fdrakesome docs for starting Z3 would be really good as well22:18
fdrakeI've got some email to write about the pytz changes, then I can look at the docs issue.22:18
fdrake(likely not for long, though)22:18
srichterthat's ok22:18
benji_yorkfdrake, are you fixing the pytz-induced test failure?22:19
fdrakebenji_york, talked to Gary about it, and we're going to push it back to Stuart22:23
benji_yorkahh, ok22:23
fdrakethere are some open questions about what the right thing to do really is22:23
benji_yorkfdrake, is already being crawled by spiders, and clue on whether buildbot has an easy way to add a robots.txt?22:26
* fdrake chatting w/ Gary on the side channel again...22:26
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fdrakebenji_york, it shouldn't be too hard22:26
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benji_yorksrichter, does ST use a robots.txt for their buildbot?22:28
srichterbenji_york: you have to ask someone from POV22:29
srichterI am not involved in this part22:29
benji_yorkanyone matching that description here?22:29
srichteralga, mgedmin22:29
mgedminno, we don't22:32
mgedminwe use robots.txt to tell bots to ignore our subversion repository22:32
mgedmin'cause that used to cause berkeley db related problems22:32
benji_yorkI just noticed Ask Jeves has already spidered even though it's only been up a few hours22:32
* mgedmin looks22:33
benji_yorkI'll just wait until it becomes a problem before digging into it22:33
mgedminit could use some nicer css22:33
benji_yorkyeah, I haven't worried about that much yet, I do like ST's CSS though22:33
mgedminactually it's fluendo's22:34
benji_yorkyeah, I had noticed from the comment22:34
mgedminsimplest way to add robots.txt if buildbot is serving / directly would be an Apache rewrite rule, I think22:36
mgedminalthough buildbot uses twisted and serves the CSS from the filesystem -- so it should be trivial to serve /robots.txt as well22:36
benji_yorkyep, I was thinking the latter22:36
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fdrakeit should probably serve everything not recognized based on the filesystem22:42
fdrakebut an apache re-write would serve just as well22:42
benji_yorkfdrake, hmm, I'll test that hypothesis22:42
fdrakei said *should*; i don't think it does22:42
benji_yorknope, it doesn22:44
fdrakein buildbot.status.html, StatusResource special cases various names for special handling, and barfs on the rest22:44
fdrakeit shouldn't be too hard to modify, though22:45
fdrakeat least for simple files, which is all we care about22:45
benji_yorkyep, I see where to change it, but am not going to do it right now, if we have a problem we'll fix it and contribute it back22:46
fdrakesounds good22:46
fdrakewe definately want to get a robots.txt in there quickly, though22:47
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benji_yorkfdrake, oh... we do?22:47
fdrakedon't we?  if it gets spidered a lot, that means that contributors loose, since that's the svn machine as well22:50
benji_yorkI didn't think it would be too bad, but if you think so, I can make the changes, it should't be too hard22:52
fdrakedo we have a candidate robots.txt yet?22:52
benji_yorkInterestingly, the only spider to know about it (Ask Jeeves) didn't bother to request robots.txt  :(22:53
mgedminUser-agent: *22:53
mgedminDisallow: /22:53
fdrakeah, very interesting22:53
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fdrakeseems like a reasonable robots.txt to me!22:53
benji_yorkas long as we add an allow for Opera so I can use the auto reload option  :)22:54
fdrakedoes that consult robots.txt?  it's hard to call that a robot in the same way22:54
fdrakethough I guess it kinda is22:55
benji_yorkit does, the Opera people are nice like that22:55
fdrake(a robot; it's still not a spider)22:55
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