IRC log of #zope3-dev for Monday, 2005-09-12

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ksmith99hi all, to institute a site-based blogger-api, should that be an ILocalUtility?02:02
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srichterprojekt01: security should work on objects that are wrapped with locate as well02:27
srichterksmith99: blogs feel more like content to me02:28
projekt01srichter, I have a use case where it doesn't work. I locate the object as a child of a view. Hope to find some time to write simply setup to reproduce it.02:29
srichterprojekt01: that would be good02:30
srichterClaudia is about to answer your E-mail :-)02:30
projekt01srichter, cool ... no even the manager where have all permissions can access the object (ForbidenAttribute)02:30
projekt01perhaps we can take a look at this at the sprint02:31
projekt01I plan to write a simply API for reporting security, perhaps I will also add a view which reports this part.02:32
ksmith99srichter: thanks,  i was thinking more of a site-based xmlrpc method, of which there should be only one02:53
srichterprojekt01: that would be fantasticö ST has certainlz a need for such a tool as well04:00
srichterksmith99: what will this method do_04:00
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ksmith99srichter: add content..such as a blog entry using a client program04:53
ksmith99the other use case I was considering is PayPal IPN, they send a request to the server that tells the status of a payment04:54
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philiKONMrTopf, tach10:39
MrTopfHi philiKON10:42
MrTopfeverything fine?10:42
philiKONMrTopf, have you tried zope 2.8 recently on your mac?10:44
philiKONit's starting up sloooooow10:44
MrTopfHm, I think so.. but long ago..10:45
MrTopfso cannot remember the difference anymore ;-)10:46
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yotaffanguenot: ping16:41
yotaffsrichter: ping16:41
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srichteryotaff: pong16:49
yotaffsrichter: I'am translating zope316:50
yotaffdumb question : Specific Required Interface Adapters (specific = adapters, required = interface)16:51
srichterok, I am not sure what the stuff in the parenthesis is, but I know the term, since I created it :-)16:53
srichterlet's say you have:16:53
srichterclass I1(Interface): pass16:53
srichterclass I2(I1): pass16:54
yotaffwhat is specific and what is required ?16:54
srichterclass O2:16:54
srichter  implements(I2)16:54
srichterand you register16:54
srichtercomponent.provideAdapter(I2, A2)16:54
srichtercomponent.provideAdapter(I1, A1)16:55
srichtercomponent.provideAdapter(Interface, A0)16:55
srichterA2 is a specific adapter and I2 is the required interface16:55
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srichterA0 is a generic adapter where Interface is the required interface16:56
srichterlook at the APIdoc documentation for a class or interface and it will make sense16:57
yotaffso i can translate like this : specific adapters with required interfaces ?17:00
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srichterSpecific Adapter with Required Interface17:01
srichteruse singular for interface17:01
srichterbecause you are looking for adapters where the viewed interface is required17:02
mexiKONyotaff, srichter, out of curiosity, what is the original message?17:02
srichterSpecific Required Interface Adapters17:03
mexiKONwhy doesn't it read "Specific Adapter with Required Interface", if that's what you suggest to translate it as?17:03
mexiKONwe really need better original english messages17:03
mexiKONi've come across quite a lot of these cryptic names17:03
srichterfeel free to find better ones17:04
srichterwe have not formed terminology for many of those things17:04
yotaffmexiKON: yes it's hard :]17:04
mexiKONyou don't always need a formalized terminology17:04
mexiKONcommon sense helps a lot17:04
mexiKONit's not always about translation, but it's good to think about it. if you think that the term you've created is understandable to a translator, chances are good that the term is easy enough to be understood by everyone17:05
mexiKONi for one, have trouble with "Specific Required Interface Adapters" myself17:05
srichterI don't :-)17:06
mexiKONbecause you wrote it :)17:06
srichterit's also much clearer in the context17:06
mexiKONand know exactly what it means17:06
mexiKONor, rather, what you meant17:06
srichterout of context many things don't make sense17:06
srichterfor example: "I am spitting out code really fast." :-)17:06
yotaffthe problem is (for me) that messages are without context. You need to develop for understand17:06
mexiKONi think a lot of that out-of-context problem can be solved by messages that are just a little bit more descriptive17:07
yotaffmexiKON: I agree17:07
mexiKONno need to be overly verbose, but it can't hurt to write 2 more words, like a preposition, that clarifies meaning17:08
mexiKON"Specific Required Interface Adapters" is a great example for such a case, i think17:08
srichteryotaff: we try to provide file line numbers as hint17:08
yotaffsrichter: po file give already the line. but for the example above, it's the title of a method17:10
srichterI am surprised you are asked to translate this17:10
yotaffwhy ?17:11
srichterok, then the () make more sense17:11
srichterwhy do we translate method titles?17:11
yotaffbecause it's in the po file17:11
srichterbut I wonder why it is picked up17:12
yotaffpick up ? You mean why the title method is in po file ?17:14
srichterso we run this extraction tool that uses hints to pick up messages and put it in the POT17:15
srichterso I am wondering why the extraction tool found it17:15
yotaff        title=_("Specific Required Interface Adapters"),17:16
yotaffin src/zope/app/apidoc/ifacemodule/interfaces.py17:16
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srichterok, that makes perfectly sense17:22
srichterI know exactely where this is coming from17:22
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yotaffI do not doubt that makes sense stephan, but when you must translate 1300 msgstr without deeper knowledge of Zope3, it's more difficult ;)17:24
mexiKONyotaff, don't worry, even i don't understand what "Specific Required Interface Adapters" means (and i'm too lazy to read stephan's explanation above ;))17:25
srichteryotaff: I know, translating deep technical stuff is hard17:27
srichterAs I said I am open to better terms17:27
srichtertrust me, it took me a very long time to even come up with those17:27
srichterit is not particularly easy to explain17:27
yotaffbad concept, change concept ;===17:28
srichterI would even be open to use the terminology: Primary|Secondary|Tertiary Adapter17:28
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mexiKONsrichter, the self-extractable .exe installers you get for windows... are those made by distutils (iow, all you need is a
srichterask tim :-)18:02
mexiKONi should google first before asking dumb questions :)18:03
yotaffanother question : what is credential ? synonym of permission ?18:36
yotaffhum, and we need a definition for principal18:39
yotaffoutch "A Pluggable Authentication Persistent Authentication Plugin"18:42
yotaffsrichter: "a pluggable authentification with persistent authentification plugin" is ok for you ?18:43
yotaffhum, no : persistent authentification plugin with  pluggable authentification18:44
mexiKONyotaff, nope18:46
mexiKONyotaff, it's an authentication plugin18:46
mexiKONand it's pluggable18:46
mexiKONerr, no18:46
yotaff yotaff> hum, no : persistent authentification plugin with  pluggable authentification18:46
mexiKONlet's take it back18:46
mexiKONit's a plugin for pluggable authentication18:46
mexiKONa persistent plugin18:46
yotaffwe are ok18:47
mexiKONa persistent authentication plugin actually18:47
mexiKONso, a persistent authentication plugin for pluggable authentification18:47
mexiKONthese english strings really need to be revised18:47
yotaffI need 2 definition : principal & credentiel18:48
yotaffcredential sorry18:48
yotaffprincipal = user ? member ? other ?18:48
SteveAa principal is the representation inside Zope of the thing that is connecting to the Zope server18:49
SteveAa credential something that the Zope server uses to decide which principal is connecting18:50
SteveAit's like being at a company, and being the person who answers the phone18:51
SteveAlet's say you have caller-id18:51
SteveAand someone from another company you do business with phones up18:51
SteveAyou can tell that it is someone from that company by the caller-id18:51
SteveAthat's a credential18:51
SteveA(maybe not a particularly good one, but it still is one)18:51
mexiKONyotaff, credential is something believable that authenticates a person18:51
mexiKONyotaff, in real life, it would be an ID card or a driver's license, for example18:52
SteveAmaybe you don't care who at the company is calling, it is just the fact that it is that company contacting you that is important to you18:52
SteveAso your knowledge of that company is the principal.  however your company indexes the sum of records and information about that other company18:52
SteveAthat's the principal.  the index to that information.  and the fact that it is a phonecall18:53
SteveAand not a personal visit or a letter or a fax18:53
SteveA(as personal visits and letters and faxes and emails, and uses of the web application, each of these would have a different principal.)18:53
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SteveAand different kinds of credentials18:53
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yotaffhum, complicated18:55
drzoltron_srichter: ayt ?18:55
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mexiKONyotaff, it's not that hard. imagine a person has to authenticate18:56
mexiKONthat person could use different methods to make believe that it is really him18:56
yotaffmexiKON: what is the term used in german translation ?18:56
mexiKON- a passport18:56
mexiKON- finger print18:56
mexiKON- password18:56
mexiKON- ...18:56
mexiKONall those are credentials18:56
mexiKONnot sure what we use in the german translation18:57
mexiKONi think we use something that is equivalent to "login information"18:57
yotaffoki so credential = method of authentification ?18:57
drzoltron_mexiKON: Einloggungsinformation ? ;)18:57
* srichter pukes ;-)18:58
mexiKONdrzoltron_, anmelde informationen18:58
mexiKONeinloggen ist kein deutsches wort18:58
drzoltron_schade !18:58
mexiKONyotaff, credentials aren't a method, they're data18:58
yotaffprincipal = all credentials of a user ?18:58
mexiKONthey're authentication data (e.g. a password is data)18:58
SteveAthis is difficult because "principal" and "credential" are abstract ideas18:58
yotaffI think i will use english terms18:59
mexiKONyotaff, a principal is a essentially a user18:59
SteveAi'd say "a user connecting in a particular way"18:59
mexiKONSteveA, btw, i really wish we had named it participant, not principal18:59
SteveAas in my example of phoning, faxing, emailing, calling in person18:59
yotaffSteveA: yes, it is. In french, it's difficult to "invent" a term like english18:59
mexiKONto go in line with participation18:59
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mexiKONsrichter, anmeldeinfomrationen is the word Microsoft uses to translate login credentials19:00
mexiKONi'm not saying they're always right, but....19:00
srichterthat's pretty good19:00
drzoltron_srichter: finished with puking ? Raead19:00
SteveA"participation" is interesting19:01
SteveA"participant" is interesting19:01
mexiKONmuch easier to translate19:01
mexiKONand to grok19:01
drzoltron_Read your postings on zope3-dev-.. about an ODBC adapter19:01
drzoltron_I will try to integrate mxODBC into a zope DA, would that be of interest ?19:01
SteveAmexiKON: suggest the change on the mailing list perhaps19:02
SteveAi'm at least +0 on it19:02
* mexiKON writes an email right away19:02
srichterdrzoltron_: I think it would make several people happy19:03
drzoltron_srichter: mxODBC is not open source but anyhow it's the only alternative right now19:03
drzoltron_I am quite a newbee at Z3 development so I would be more than happy if somebody could test my code a bit etc19:04
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yotaff"Browser Form Challenger"19:37
yotaffchallenger ?19:37
efge"prove me who you are", as in login form19:38
mexiKONyotaff, "I challenge you to a duell" said the challenger :)19:39
drzoltron_sounds like a rocket19:41
mexiKONit's a NASA space shuttle19:42
mexiKONyotaff, SteveA, btw, sent the email about participant19:42
drzoltron_zope challenger19:42
drzoltron_now with heat shield19:42
yotaffmexiKON: I have sent a mail about all difficult words19:43
mgedminsvn info19:43
mgedminnot a password this time ;)19:44
drzoltron_Path: .19:44
drzoltron_URL: svn://
drzoltron_Repository UUID: 29e5e65d-b4a6-764d-84b6-e2368af7f8f619:44
drzoltron_Revision: 291019:44
drzoltron_Node Kind: directory19:44
mgedmindrzoltron_, sudo -s19:45
mexiKONls -lR19:45
* mgedmin waits expectantly19:45
mexiKONls -lR /   I meant19:45
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drzoltron_cd /19:48
drzoltron_rm -rf *19:48
mexiKONoverride r-xr-xr-x  root/wheel for /bin/sh?19:49
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yotaffI hate launchpad20:12
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ksmithhi folks, whats the best way to implement something like http://localhost/myservice?id=123&title=blahblah&data=blahblah in z3?21:12
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wiggyyou want to use illogical unreadable urls in z3?21:20
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ksmithwiggy: huh? those are post parameters... like in a form submission21:39
ksmithi'm pretty sure I need to create a local utility, but it needs to be traversable21:39
mexiKONksmith, let's take this one step back21:41
mexiKONksmith, what exactly do you want to do?21:41
ksmithfor instance, institute a blogger api, handle paypal IPN notices21:42
mexiKONhang on, phone21:43
ksmithnp, in the Z2 CMF I would have created a tool21:44
wiggyI'm still stuck on creating a Z2 tool :)21:44
wiggyI got the tool but it's data isn't persisting21:44
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SteveAwith the standard zope3, the url you have would be a view on the root object, that handles the post21:44
mexiKONksmith, why make a cmf tool?21:44
mexiKONyeah, a view is probably what comes closest21:45
SteveAwith my vision of how zope3 should be configured, it would be a "resource" you hook into the /myservice URL using some zcml.21:45
SteveAunfortunatly, my day job keeps my busy day and night, so i haven't had time to actually write that stuff.21:45
ksmithstevea, mexikon thanks21:46
SteveAzope3 is *way* too tied into the zodb, still.21:46
ksmithwiggy: Ive never persisted data with a tool other than to add content to a site21:46
mexiKONksmith, you really can't answer your question with one answer21:46
mexiKONksmith, a blogger api, e.g., is best expressed through the API of the content objects, for example21:46
mexiKONor their adapters, respectively21:46
ksmithbut a blogger client only expects to hit one url21:47
SteveAjim started on something like i'm describing, with his bobo project.21:47
mexiKONksmith, that'd be a view then21:47
SteveA(the new zope3 bobo, not the original pre-zope2 one)21:47
ksmithstevea, I just saw mention of that21:47
mexiKONksmith, a client interacts with zope through a request. and whenever the request is involved, you got a view21:48
SteveAor a resource21:48
ksmithso basically to create a method only, web accessible functions, the preferred way is to create a view on the site root?21:48
SteveAif you have no content object, techincally, you have a resource21:48
ksmithroger that21:48
SteveAksmith: that is the easiest way, with a standard zope 321:48
mexiKONksmith, create a view for all containers, for example21:48
mexiKONunless you really need to limit yourself to the root21:49
ksmithmexikon, yes, only root21:49
mexiKONbut even then, it probably makes more sense to chose a site21:49
mexiKONbecause you could be virtual hosting21:49
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ksmithso I should create a custom site adapater?21:49
SteveAjust register a view on ISite21:50
mexiKONksmith, what SteveA says :)21:50
SteveAyour view can be a class21:50
SteveAso, you write this class21:50
SteveAand make its __call__ method do the stuff you need21:50
ksmithstevea/mexikon, thanks, very helpful21:50
SteveAand in zcml, say: <page for="......ISite" name="myservice" class="....MyClass" attribute="__call__" />21:51
SteveAwrite def __call__(self):21:51
SteveAand do stuff with self.request21:51
ksmithargh customer.... gtg, but I21:51
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ksmithi'll try that out asap21:51
SteveAget whatever utilities you need using getUtility() or just import Python modules and use them21:51
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jennerGuys, could someone push me into the right direction? I'd like to know if/how z3 serves files from filesystem21:58
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