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| eins | hi all | 08:16 |
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| romanofski | moin | 09:53 |
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| eins | hi romanofski | 10:22 |
| eins | :) | 10:22 |
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| andres | J1m, srichter If you remember my problem about the speed impact of securityproxies, i just want to let you know, that the caching is working very nice. First time i iterate over all objects 14s second time. 2s. Perhaps problem is the combination of zope and sqlos/sqlobject. Is the cache for security lookups per request? If not, that would explain the thing. Sqlos objects are thrown away after each transaction in order to achieve transactional safety. | 12:12 |
| andres | So caching cant work. | 12:12 |
| andres | (Both time i iterate over all objects, they are alread cached within sqlos (via an iteration without security proxies), so its not a matter of that) | 12:13 |
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| Theuni | Can somebody confirm this statement: The security machiner differentiates between setattr and getattr, but does not handle 'calling a method' different than getattr? | 12:25 |
| Theuni | +y | 12:25 |
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| srichter | Theuni: I can confirm that | 14:54 |
| Theuni | thanks! | 15:04 |
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| srichter | Theuni: the security mechanism only deals with attribute access and modification | 15:15 |
| srichter | the way methods work is by getting (accessing) the method and then calling it | 15:15 |
| srichter | once the method is accessed, you can do what you want; I think this is implemented by making methods rocks | 15:15 |
| Theuni | right. I just noticed an inconsistency in the way steve, jim and I wrote some stuff for the certification mentioning method calls as a third way | 15:16 |
| srichter | ah, I see | 15:16 |
| Theuni | i just wanted to clear up what the intended state was | 15:16 |
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| RockyBurt | hm, does anyone know if any work has been done (or needs to be done) to zope3 for it to support eggs at this point? | 16:02 |
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| srichter | RockyBurt: there is a huge discussion on zope3-dev right now | 16:08 |
| RockyBurt | srichter: i know, thats why i was asking ;) | 16:08 |
| srichter | RockyBurt: some initial work has been done, but I do not know how far it came | 16:08 |
| RockyBurt | seems to me a lot of people are discsussing on a topic they know quite little about ;) | 16:09 |
| srichter | it is not a simple subject | 16:09 |
| RockyBurt | indeed | 16:09 |
| srichter | don't underestimate their understanding | 16:09 |
| RockyBurt | lol, but everyone who's discussing on the list all says they don't really know anything about eggs including the one arguing for them -- jim ;) | 16:10 |
| srichter | they probably have a good high-level idea of what's going on; they just do not know the details and thus do not know the pitfalls | 16:10 |
| benji | right, Jim and I have both put just a few hours into eggs and see the prommise, but we don't know if the details will fulfil the prommise or not | 16:17 |
| RockyBurt | i have to admit i'm a little confused about the proposed direction, does J1m mean that eggs would be checked into svn? | 16:20 |
| benji | I hope not :) | 16:24 |
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| Theuni | we could add bacon, sausages and spam too :) | 16:45 |
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| RockyBurt | lol Theuni | 16:48 |
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| j-w | I'm reading through the zope.schema code and notice this line in _bootstrapfields.py: | 17:15 |
| j-w | clone = self.__class__.__new__(self.__class__) | 17:15 |
| j-w | isn't that equivalent to clone = self.__class__() ? | 17:16 |
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| srichter | I don't think __new__ and __init__ are necessarily equivalent | 17:21 |
| srichter | in fact it is not | 17:21 |
| srichter | new does nto require any constructor arguments | 17:21 |
| srichter | but init does | 17:21 |
| j-w | oh, ok | 17:21 |
| j-w | right, then I understand | 17:22 |
| j-w | thx! | 17:22 |
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| mleist | Hello, a few days before i asked: | 18:19 |
| mleist | is there any small kind of sourcecode which can do a "simple" trigger of an | 18:20 |
| mleist | ecm.workflow direct in an object-method? | 18:20 |
| mleist | I have some xmlrpc-methods in which i have to modify the state of | 18:20 |
| mleist | "self"...workflow. | 18:20 |
| mleist | in my old "zope.app.workflow"-source it looks like: | 18:20 |
| mleist | def changeWorkflowFrom... | 18:20 |
| mleist | adapter = IProcessInstanceContainer( self) | 18:20 |
| mleist | wf_host1 = removeAllProxies(adapter.get( "wf_host1")) | 18:20 |
| mleist | wf_host1.fireTransition(u"configured_offline") | 18:20 |
| mleist | any idea or link? | 18:20 |
| philiKON | _anguenot, ping | 18:20 |
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| _anguenot | philiKON, pong | 18:22 |
| philiKON | mleist, you want to talk to _anguenot :) | 18:23 |
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| agroszer | mleist, I can't tell you a better one, that looking at the ecm.workflow.demo, app.py | 18:23 |
| agroszer | sorry, ecm.demo.workflow, app.py | 18:24 |
| agroszer | self.participant.activity.workItemFinished(self) is the keyword | 18:24 |
| agroszer | that triggers the transition if every activity (I think) is finished | 18:25 |
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| Theuni | hmm. | 18:29 |
| mleist | Hm, the self.participant.activity.workItemFinished is part of the Application which modifies the workflow. | 18:29 |
| Theuni | can somebody tell my why ObjectCreatedEvents seem to be triggered from view code all the time? | 18:29 |
| agroszer | Theuni: that is fired in the add form as I know | 18:30 |
| Theuni | i saw that | 18:30 |
| Theuni | i wondered why a file object wasn't annotated with creator and creation time when creating it manually. that was a bit surprising ... | 18:31 |
| Theuni | anyway ... gotta catch a train. thanks. | 18:32 |
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| agroszer | mleist, that seems to be the new world order, zope.wfmc works the same way | 18:34 |
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| mleist | Ok, I have to read the docs again (and again) but i don't see it. There is a trigger from outside (via XMLRPC) and is accepted by my Object. This Object will "call" an Application to modify the Workflow. I don't understand this last step - give me a chance ;-) | 18:38 |
| agroszer | mleist, I also did not made to that point in my app, yet | 18:39 |
| agroszer | but obviously that's the way | 18:39 |
| agroszer | you have to figure out somehow how to get to the application object | 18:40 |
| mgedmin | mleist, as far as I understand wfmc | 18:41 |
| mgedmin | you define an application class | 18:41 |
| mgedmin | that has a start method | 18:41 |
| mgedmin | and in the start method you stash the instance somewhere to make it accessible | 18:41 |
| mgedmin | then from any other place you can access the instance of the application (which is usually called a "work item") | 18:42 |
| mgedmin | annotations are one choice for stashing work items | 18:42 |
| mgedmin | perhaps via an adapter | 18:42 |
| agroszer | good point | 18:42 |
| agroszer | one more idea: have a look at ecm.workflow.browser, edit.py | 18:44 |
| agroszer | how it gets the workitem from the context | 18:44 |
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| mleist | ok, i will try it this way - thanks. | 18:47 |
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| dobee | srichter: ayt? | 19:14 |
| mleist | fine, this seems to be a good way. now i have to take paper/pencil and draw my "big picture". Thanks for the moment. | 19:24 |
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| srichter | dobee: now I am | 20:13 |
| dobee | hi, i read your mail and looked into zodb svn, but there is no blob support in the trunk ther is just a devel branch | 20:14 |
| dobee | du you have any clue when the merge should happen of the Blobs package? | 20:15 |
| srichter | dobee: oh, I thought this code made it in the previous release | 20:15 |
| srichter | so we have to lobby (Theuni I think) to get it into the trunk | 20:15 |
| srichter | I think we need to send a mail to the list | 20:16 |
| srichter | J1m: dobee is interested on working on large file support during the snow sprint | 20:16 |
| dobee | i also think then we have to pay attention on types of storage a zodb uses | 20:16 |
| srichter | application code should not need to deal with that | 20:16 |
| J1m | As in large files stored in ZODB? | 20:17 |
| srichter | it is ZODB's responsibility to implement blobs efficiently for various storages | 20:17 |
| srichter | J1m: yeah and efficiently getting htme in there and out of it | 20:17 |
| dobee | srichter: well but you can not use FileStorage and Blobs in one db | 20:17 |
| dobee | or am i wrong | 20:17 |
| J1m | Once blobs are in place it should be trivial. | 20:18 |
| J1m | dobee, the ZODB blob storage is a storage adapter. | 20:18 |
| J1m | It can be used with file storages. | 20:18 |
| J1m | anyway, the hard part is getting ZODB blobs. | 20:20 |
| srichter | ok, so not much we can do there | 20:20 |
| J1m | There is a lot of work left to do on that. | 20:20 |
| J1m | no | 20:20 |
| srichter | anything that someone without much ZODB knowledge can pick up? | 20:20 |
| srichter | J1m: btw, I need to talk to you somewhen soonish about other possible sprint tasks | 20:20 |
| J1m | Not on that. | 20:21 |
| J1m | k | 20:21 |
| srichter | right, that's what I thought | 20:21 |
| srichter | dobee: do you know if someone coming to the sprint is a ZODB hacker? | 20:22 |
| dobee | afaik no, i asked jodok today | 20:22 |
| srichter | we should not attack problems/tasks that we do not understand well | 20:23 |
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| srichter | one thing that we could work on is the further simplification of the local component management | 20:23 |
| srichter | I feel comfortable with that once I synced with Jim | 20:24 |
| J1m | Yup, but I really need to get the new component registry stuff done first. :/ | 20:24 |
| srichter | ok | 20:24 |
| J1m | That is a project I plan to work on some this weekend. | 20:24 |
| dobee | well, we thought it would be a good occasion because we implement a media repository based on zope3 and then we would have enouogh resources for such tasks | 20:25 |
| J1m | Maybe y'all could help me with that on some development branch. | 20:25 |
| dobee | after the sprint i mein | 20:25 |
| dobee | mean | 20:25 |
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| srichter | yeah, but we cannot attack an issue that we (a) do not understand well and (b) do not have the expertise for | 20:26 |
| srichter | we really need to lobby the author of ZODB blobs to get the work done | 20:26 |
| srichter | J1m: good idea | 20:26 |
| dobee | ok | 20:27 |
| J1m | I wonder if there is anything to do along those lines based on tramline. | 20:27 |
| J1m | I should say faassen's tramline. :) | 20:27 |
| srichter | dobee: hearing your thoughts just convinced me to give a development process presentation at the sprint | 20:27 |
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| dobee | J1m: i think this is the alternative we'll take then | 20:28 |
| dobee | srichter: zope3 process? | 20:28 |
| srichter | yes | 20:28 |
| dobee | +1 | 20:29 |
| srichter | J1m: you said that streaming does not work with the current Zoep 3 publisher, right? | 20:29 |
| J1m | right. | 20:29 |
| J1m | That would need a well though out proposal. | 20:29 |
| srichter | that could be something to think about; but then someone would have to do some serious homework before the sprint | 20:29 |
| dobee | we, had a lot of discussions today about tasks, that could also make the plone people come a little bit closer to zope3 | 20:29 |
| J1m | BTW, given the venue, I'd love to see some Five work. | 20:30 |
| J1m | exactly | 20:30 |
| srichter | dobee: are there Five developers there? | 20:30 |
| J1m | A few weeks ago, I mentioned some tasks that I'd like people to work on for merging z3 tech into z2. | 20:30 |
| srichter | yeah, that's more down my alley :-) | 20:31 |
| dobee | i think so, dunno if core developers, but new stuff will be pretty much based on five on the sprint | 20:31 |
| J1m | I don't know if Andreas needs help with his ZPT or unicode work, for example. | 20:31 |
| srichter | we could attack the security system stuff | 20:31 |
| J1m | Yes, although I would need to write up some proposals to give guidance. | 20:31 |
| srichter | that would be great! :-) | 20:31 |
| J1m | Unfortunately, that's some pretty heavy stuff. | 20:31 |
| J1m | Another area is integration of the Z3 publisher. | 20:32 |
| dobee | to heavy for me | 20:32 |
| srichter | I think I understand the Zope 3 implementation pretty ok, or at least could read through it again to understand it | 20:32 |
| J1m | Sindnei made some noise about working on that, but I don't know if he did or is doing anything. | 20:33 |
| srichter | J1m: I have not seen a brnach being created yet | 20:33 |
| J1m | srichter, to do the security work requires deep understanding of both z2 and z3 security. | 20:33 |
| J1m | That includes acquisition. | 20:33 |
| J1m | I'll note that sane local component management is needed for both z2 and z3. | 20:34 |
| RockyBurt | there's gonna be a high emphasis on Five/z3 work at the snow sprint | 20:34 |
| * RockyBurt will be attending | 20:34 | |
| J1m | So I think that could still be a good topic. | 20:34 |
| J1m | cool | 20:34 |
| srichter | yeah, I think so too | 20:34 |
| RockyBurt | and out of the people i know that are going, non are real zodb hackers | 20:34 |
| srichter | J1m: what about exploring eggs? | 20:34 |
| RockyBurt | eggs has been brought up as a potential topic at the sprint | 20:35 |
| RockyBurt | in fact whit and i have been discussing it | 20:35 |
| * RockyBurt has worked with Basket quite a bit lately, adding support for CMF products, etc | 20:35 | |
| J1m | Z2 is ahead of Z3 here. | 20:35 |
| RockyBurt | that was what i figured | 20:35 |
| J1m | RockyBurt, have y'all tried integrating easy_install or such yet? | 20:36 |
| RockyBurt | J1m: not yet... not sure what mcdonc has planned for that | 20:36 |
| RockyBurt | well, easy_install is required for building the eggs if i remember | 20:36 |
| RockyBurt | but i assume you mean for pulling down dependencies at runtime, etc | 20:36 |
| J1m | No, just setuptools. | 20:36 |
| RockyBurt | oh yeah | 20:37 |
| RockyBurt | it is just setuptools | 20:37 |
| J1m | and even just installing eggs. | 20:37 |
| RockyBurt | you're right | 20:37 |
| J1m | benji, keeps telling me to look at Paste Deploy, so I need to look at that soon. | 20:37 |
| RockyBurt | right | 20:37 |
| RockyBurt | would be nice if easy_install could be used to create package slugs for eggs upon install too ;) | 20:37 |
| J1m | I expect eggs will have a greater impact than that. | 20:38 |
| J1m | I expect we want something more like baskets. | 20:38 |
| RockyBurt | yeah i've been hearing good things about Paste lately | 20:38 |
| J1m | I'm also hoping that eggs can help manage checkouts (buildouts) and releases, thus the interest in easy_install, Paste Deplot, etc. | 20:39 |
| RockyBurt | ah yes -- i would imagine easy_install would be required for something like that | 20:39 |
| J1m | easy_install or something like it. | 20:40 |
| * srichter notes he has to get back to work ... see ya | 20:40 | |
| * RockyBurt wavews | 20:40 | |
| RockyBurt | *waves | 20:40 |
| * RockyBurt reads through the pythonpaste.org website and decides he's going to have to deploy/develop using something using paste in order to understand it | 20:41 | |
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| RockyBurt | heh, paste requires easy_install | 20:44 |
| RockyBurt | at least installatino of paste deploy does | 20:44 |
| J1m | One issue I'm wrestling with is how to get easy_install to work with a directory under my control. | 20:44 |
| J1m | Like one internal to a Zope install or a Zope instance. | 20:45 |
| RockyBurt | you mean so that it downloads and installs eggs into your zope instance ? | 20:45 |
| J1m | None of the alternatives at http://peak.telecommunity.com/DevCenter/EasyInstall#custom-installation-locations | 20:46 |
| J1m | seem workable | 20:46 |
| J1m | yes | 20:46 |
| J1m | I think we need to propose something else. | 20:47 |
| J1m | IMO, '"Traditional" PYTHONPATH-based Installation' is closest to what I want. | 20:47 |
| J1m | But I need to play with it some more. | 20:47 |
| RockyBurt | yeah i was just about to say | 20:48 |
| RockyBurt | why wouldn't that traditional approach just work? | 20:48 |
| J1m | I played with it last weekend. | 20:49 |
| J1m | It wants to read info from a configuration file and it's hard to manage that. | 20:49 |
| J1m | It's not an option for us to require a special config file in a users home, nor to modify the one in the Python distutils directory. | 20:50 |
| RockyBurt | of course | 20:50 |
| J1m | It will use a config file in the current working directory, but that's messy. | 20:50 |
| RockyBurt | but perhaps a fresh zope instance would include a $INSTANCE_HOME/bin/zope_easy_install that reads its configuration from somewhere inside the $INSTANCE_HOME which by default makes everything go into $INSTANCE_HOME/lib/python and $INSTANCE_HOME/bin | 20:50 |
| J1m | What I want is for the easy install bootstrapping process to create a custom easy_install that remembers the configuration information I have at bootstrapping time. | 20:51 |
| J1m | Right, the bootstrapping process creates a custom easy install. | 20:51 |
| J1m | (well, I'm not sure how custom) | 20:51 |
| RockyBurt | right | 20:52 |
| J1m | I was able to get it to make an easy install script in my buildouts bin directory. | 20:52 |
| J1m | But that easy install didn't remember any of the configuration options used to create it. | 20:52 |
| RockyBurt | bootstrapping time would be during instance creation? or? | 20:52 |
| J1m | If it did and used that information, then I think it could work pretty well. | 20:52 |
| J1m | sure | 20:52 |
| J1m | Also, I want the scripts that that easy install installs to reflect the system paths used to create the easy install. | 20:53 |
| RockyBurt | couldn't you simply generate a zope_easy_install file that does "cd $INSTANCE_HOME/easy_install" first and reads a setup.cfg from there to get config from that was generated upon instance creation time ? | 20:53 |
| J1m | Note that cabeat in '"Traditional" PYTHONPATH-based Installation' about having to munch the path. | 20:53 |
| J1m | I could, but I'd rather come up with something a bit more elegent. :) | 20:54 |
| RockyBurt | lol | 20:54 |
| J1m | I consider cd to be kinda evil. | 20:54 |
| J1m | I'm willing to do it if forced. | 20:54 |
| * RockyBurt wonders if easy_install couldn't simply be invoked from a python script using the easy_install python api and somehow feed it a good config that way | 20:55 | |
| J1m | I'm hoping that I can come up with another (5th) option for handling custom install locations. | 20:55 |
| J1m | I know that Phillip wants to handle "applications". | 20:56 |
| J1m | I don't think easy_install does yet. | 20:56 |
| J1m | Anyway, hopefully, we can come up with a proposal good enough to be incorporated in easy_install. | 20:56 |
| J1m | Then we don't have to maintain it (only) ourselves. | 20:57 |
| RockyBurt | right | 20:57 |
| RockyBurt | i should mention that developers of a lot of the major linux distributions haven't expressed resentment regarding eggs | 20:57 |
| RockyBurt | no package-based distribution wants another system installed that does its own package management | 20:57 |
| RockyBurt | particularly the debian mailing lists have went wild on these discussions | 20:58 |
| RockyBurt | err | 20:58 |
| RockyBurt | that original "haven't" was supposed to be "have" | 20:58 |
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| J1m | Yeah, I understand that. | 20:59 |
| J1m | I think they have different needs and don't always appreciate that. | 21:00 |
| RockyBurt | right | 21:00 |
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