IRC log of #zope3-dev for Wednesday, 2006-03-01

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SteveAphiliKON: hello01:16
SteveAi'm looking for an example of the new functional testing stuff01:16
SteveAso that michael and i can copy it for an example of what we're working on01:17
SteveAbut i was unable to find any examples in .txt files in ftest directories in the zope3 source01:17
SteveAany idea where i should look?01:17
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SteveAphiliKON: ???01:20
* philiKON reads01:20
philiKON"new" functional testing stuff?01:20
philiKONyou mean testbrowser?01:20
philiKONor the layer stuff?01:20
SteveAthe testbrowser kind of stuff01:21
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roymwhat is the recommemdation on viewlets/pagelets. Jeff Shell's blog entry seems to suggest they are a new technology - philiKONs post (if I recall correctly) suggests getting rid of them. Should I develop w/viewlets going forward?15:21
mgedminviewlets are very useful in certain conditions15:25
mgedminI read Jeff Shell's post -- IIRC he indicated viewlets were a new technology for him, so he did not have a full understanding of all the implications, or an opinion on viewlets15:26
mgedminI do not recall reading philiKON's post on viewlets, where is it?15:26
roymmgedmin: I will dig and look for it, and maybe I am not remembering right, but he had a blog entry about a list of peeves/improvements for Z3.15:31
* mgedmin googles and finds
mgedminI think philiKON did not suggest getting rid of viewlets15:40
mgedminhe suggested getting rid of <browser:viewlet /> ZCML directive15:40
mgedminand replacing it with a standard adapter (or maybe subscriber?) directive15:40
roymmgedmin: thanks for the clarification.15:43
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roymBy the way, besides schooltool, are there any reasonably sized implementations of zope3 that I could look at.15:44
mgedminI cannot think of any15:44
mgedminthere are a number of usefuly libraries for zope 3, though15:45
mgedminstephan's recent proposal gave links15:45
roymcan you point me to that15:45
* mgedmin googles15:45
roymmany thanks.15:49
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srichtermkerrin: so you ran the lithmus tests already?16:53
mkerrinyipe - it just took 1 minute to run from downloading it16:53
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srichtermkerrin: cool16:58
srichtermkerrin: how many are failing?16:58
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mkerrin16 failed in the handling of PROPFIND, with 10 warnings then the make script to run the tests fails17:00
mkerrinit don't think it got has fair has running the lock tests - but I am guessing a bunch of tests would fail in here too17:00
srichterhow many PROPFIND tests are there?17:01
mkerrin26 tests - this was against my WebDAV branch but I managed to pass the all the basic tests (15 tests) and copymove tests (12 tests)17:05
srichterthis is good news I think17:05
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mkerrinI think so - it is also nice to have something to aim at - to pass all the litmus tests:-)17:06
srichteryep! :-)17:07
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MacYET_Theuni: no sprinting?18:44
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TheuniMacYET_, I got a kind of cold on monday. I'm better today, but I'll stay a couple more hours in bed. I think I'll join you later today.18:45
MacYET_same here18:45
TheuniYou too?18:45
MacYET_also catched a cold yesterday18:45
MacYET_fucked up AC18:45
TheuniAlthough I had the feeling it was better tuned yesterday.18:45
* MacYET_ goes into the sun later and do some shopping18:45
TheuniYou all should be sitting at the pool. The weather is so nice!18:46
MacYET_i was already in the pool18:46
TheuniGo to the sauna!18:46
* Theuni 's hotel doesn't have a sauna.18:46
MacYET_well, that's the 10 USD difference :)18:47
Theunifor me it was 140 USD difference18:47
TheuniI tried to book the room a few hours too late18:47
* Theuni goes for more ibuprofene18:48
MacYET_dcc send theuni bestwishes18:48
Theuniwhich reminds me that i should buy one of those large packs over here18:48
Theuniback to bed18:49
slinkPTheuni: sorry to hear it, hope we see you tomorrow18:49
WebMavenyeah, get some rest.18:50
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smgood day all21:15
benjihi, sm21:16
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sminteresting list threads...21:16
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benjism, you use the word "interesting" in a novel way :)21:37
smI've enjoyed the z3 thread :)21:39
smI agree most with jim, for the record21:39
smthe zopes are not positioned well right now for outsiders21:41
benjiperhaps, but his suggestion /seems/ to be to switch dev focus from Z3 to Z2 and turn Z3 into a set of building blocks that are used in Z221:45
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smI didn't read it that way21:50
philiKONbenji, except that it's not about switching dev focus away from z321:50
philiKONbenji, it's just that we focus on 1 app server and on 1 set of libraries21:50
smI read "remove the cloud of doom hanging over zope2" and "keep the zope 3 framework clean and unencumbered" ...21:51
philiKONit's really going to stay as it is (with people improving z3 and other people evolving z2), only that we're not putting effort in making catch up with zope 221:51
benjiphiliKON, "not putting effort in making catch up with zope 2" sounds like we'll instead be using the equivelant code from Z2; doesn't sound appealing21:53
philiKONa) there can and will still be z3-only apps (if you don't need all of the application server features), b) z2 is evolving. the goal is that "zope 5" would be z3ish for the people who don't want z2 features21:54
benjiand people who want just 1 Z2 feature?21:55
benji(that requires aquaisition, and some crazy subclassing, etc., etc.)21:55
philiKONi don't think the feature itself would require acquisition and such21:56
philiKONwe know from z3 that catalogs, for example, are possible without z2 weirdness21:56
benjithat's because the new ones were implemented in z3 first, and then moved, if it takes extra effort to make something "z3-clean" most won't bother21:57
philiKONright, but it's eating a lot of resources trying to reimplement the features in z3 first21:58
philiKONthe catalog isn't where the zcatalog is yet21:58
benjiyep, doing things write the second time takes work21:59
benji(my spelling is especially bad today)21:59
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philiKONyep. that's why we should perhaps only do it once, not twice22:00
philiKONanyways, i guess it boils down to the different preferences that people have for the future of their apps22:00
benjiso the z2 versions of everything are perfect, darn, I've been wasting my time22:00
* sm thinks z2/z3 style behaviour can be offered by one "zope".. heck even if Zope 4/5 installs both z2 & z3 appservers and tells you to put your code where you like, it would be easier for people22:01
benjire "different preferences", I'd say most z3 user/developer's preference is to use z3, if they wanted z2, they'd be using it, if they needed to transition an app, they'd be using Five in the hopes of eventually dumping z222:02
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benjiright, sm, also my Windows box is Linux compatible too, I just have to reconfigure the bits on the harddrive a little bit22:03
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benjishhh!  The teacher's back.22:03
smyou're disagreeing with me there I think ? :)22:03
benjiyep :)22:04
philiKONsm, your suggestion seems appealing :)22:04
philiKONsm, all in all the confusion over two zopes as well as the neglect for the "middle class programmer" who could enter with zope 2 easily is worse than having to work out some of the technicalities regarding a combine zope, i think22:05
philiKONand, then there's always the set of libraries for the z3 fans22:05
benjiexcept, philiKON, that that's exactly how the situation is today, except that they decide before downloading instead of after22:05
philiKONi think you can create lots of apps only with the components22:05
smwell, imagine.. it would be what we have now, but with packaging, releasing, naming etc. simplified :)22:05
smcould they run out of the same zodb ?22:06
srichterI, as a Zope 3 consumer, do not just want Zope 3 libraries; I want the app server, so I can build working Zope 3 applications22:06
philiKONsm, well, yes and no. when zope 2 starts using zope.publisher and, it'll actually be a lot of the same stuff (probably even the same startup machiner etc.), except that you configure them differently22:06
srichterI think Steve and Canonical are the exception right now by using the Zope 3 libs more as a collection of packages than an app server22:07
philiKONzope 2 is an example too :)22:07
philiKONtwisted uses zope.interface, turbogears wants to start using the transaction package22:07
mgedminsrichter, you could say that schooltool does the same thing22:07
mgedmin(Steve's influence)22:07
benjisrichter, I think that is what Jim and other's don't seem to understand, I believe that the vast majority of z3 users like it as is (or more so, like the direction it's going)22:08
srichtermgedmin: but only barely, and we are striving to not do our own setup anymore22:08
philiKONbenji, seems like the discussion after my proposal all over again22:08
rockyburtvast majority of z3 users? you mean all 6 of them?  :)22:08
srichtermgedmin: and we are really using the entire app server setup code, not just the libs22:08
philiKONrockyburt, :)))22:08
mgedminit's a matter of perspective22:08
mgedminto me the big difference is "one app that dictates policy" vs "many apps in a CMS-like framework"22:09
srichterrockyburt: more people than you might expect are building pure Zope 3 apps; they just tend to not come out of the closet22:09
smcurrent z3 users should not outweigh the users we want to attract22:09
philiKONwe've been brainstorming briefly about simplifying the zope.publisher code and making publication objects superfluous. they're very complicated and actually the "heart" of the apps erver right now22:09
mgedminI'd like traversal to be simpler, but I am not entirely sure I know what I'd like it to be22:09
philiKONif the publication becomes more eventy instead of subclassy, then a lot of the z3 app server is chunked down into pieces22:09
benjism, a bird in hand...22:10
mgedminsounds good22:10
srichtersm: so you prefer to alienate all of the current users of Zope 3 and the apps they have developed in favor of attracting new ones?22:10
rockyburtsrichter: i work with zope2 developers everyday but rarely work with zope3 developers so i'm allowed to use my narrow-minded tunnel vision to make jokes :)22:10
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smno, you oversimplify22:10
smbut to focus only on current users is a losing strategy I think22:10
philiKONsrichter, noone wants to do that22:10
philiKONsrichter, "zope 5" (for the lack of a better name) could be configured not to include any of the z2 shit. that's an explicit goal.22:11
srichterI have repeatedly asked for technical details on the vision, but have not gotten any yet via the lists22:11
philiKONand when zope 2 and 3 acutally share essential components like zope.publisher and, that seems very very probable22:11
philiKONwell, that's the vision right there. zope 2 will use more z3 stuff so that the differences are really in OFS+Products vs. zope.*22:12
srichterso why is then the new vision not just to make Zope 2 an add-on package (a large one) of Zope 3?22:12
philiKONsrichter, sure, why not22:12
srichterand call that add-on pakcage the compatibility layer?22:12
philiKONfine by me22:12
srichterthis avoids a new name and seems clearer22:12
srichterok, great then22:12
philiKONi don't care about naming, excep tthat i just want to avoid confusion22:12
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srichterI think any name change would provide more confusion22:13
philiKONi still think that the little pieces that zope 3 is composed of could use a different name22:13
srichterZope 3 is starting to have some tracktion itself22:13
* philiKON wouldn't mind zopelib22:13
srichteractually, this solution is nicer in a different respect too22:14
benjiI don't think there's enough traction for the-bits-that-make-up-zope-3 to warrent naming them22:14
rockyburtits funny, the majority of the zope2 community (that are actively learning new techniques) wants to get to zope3 style development but would like some way to take their old baggage with them but i feel like the zope3 community doesn't want us :(22:15
rockyburtwe're outcasts!22:16
rockyburtthe z2 community doesn't want us22:16
srichterrockyburt: really?22:16
rockyburtthe z3 community doesn't want us22:16
srichterrockyburt: I thought the that with an effort like Cubed we wanted to clearly send a message22:16
benjiwho are "us" rockyburt?  Plone?22:16
rockyburtsrichter: unfortunately the message with Cubed was we cannot take our plone baggage with us but we can recreate it if we want22:17
rockyburtbenji: lol, no... me and my circle of friends :)22:17
* rockyburt doesn't dare speak on behalf of plone22:17
benjiahh, *I* want you rockyburt, feel loved22:17
rockyburtahhhh  :)22:18
philiKONbenji, i think there *is* a lot of traction there. the turbogears people here drool when they look at what we implemented... and our stuff is of production-level quality and not just some hack...22:18
benjimaybe, philiKON, if so I'd welcome paricipation from them (on some "official" level)22:19
philiKONwell, perhaps they just want to use the stuff22:20
benjiI think we could help/learn much22:20
philiKONez_install zope.session22:20
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benjiI find that when smart, motivated people use your stuff they tend to get involved (more or less)22:21
GaryPostersomebody told me that rockyburt didn't feel loved...I'm here to share the love :-)22:21
philiKONhey GaryPoster22:21
GaryPosterhey philiKON :-)22:21
* sm wouldn't mind a libs name either.. zope.* sounds like zope only22:23
whitzope.component meets rulesdispatch22:24
whitI can dig it22:24
rockyburthaha GaryPoster22:24
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benjism, I have some simpathy for shying away from the "zope." prefix; I've had several people think that zope.testbrowser is only usable inside Zope22:25
benjiOTOH, if we publish lots of packages named like that the "zope" brand might take on a new meaning, I don't know if it's worth the effort thow22:26
smzlib is taken, eh22:26
benjiI propose a ban on any name with "z" in it22:26
smwoah! heresy! :)22:26
* rockyburt thinks zopelib would be a nice name as well, would certainly make it less confusing when teaching people new zope3 techniques in zope2 -- "teacher to student: oh, in order to do this you need to build a zope 3 component student to teacher: but teacher i'm using zope 2"22:26
benji"zopelib" is too long and still gives the zope-only impression22:27
* sm tries zedlib22:27
whitwhy don't we just name popelib after jim?22:27
benjiand it has a "z" in it!22:27
rockyburthooooow much time have i wasted just having to explain how its possible to use zope3 *in* zope222:27
rockyburtwell i don't care if its called zopelib22:27
rockyburti just mean calling it something other than zope3 ;)22:27
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rockyburtone of these days i'm going to get out of software development and enter the hollywood biz and make a soap opera entitled, "The Days of our Zopes"22:30
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* rockyburt wonders why mcdonc had to make everyone be quiet like that22:32
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mcdoncrockyburt: set off my pycon wmd... we now must rebuild. ;-)22:35
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* WebMaven_ and slinkP are baffled23:23
WebMaven_stupid tests23:23
benjiare you sure it's the tests that are stupid :)23:24
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MacYET_tests are usually as stupid as the programmer that wrote them23:26
WebMaven_mine must be pretty stupid, then.23:27
benjiI guess stupid really *is* as stupid does23:27
WebMaven_Can't get a simple form submission to succeed as a functional Doctest23:28
slinkPbaffled is not merely a state for me, it's a genetic trait23:28
WebMaven_I'm going to post the doctest:23:28
benjiWebMaven_, in a pastebin, I hope23:29
slinkPno benji, we are going to msg it to you personally :)23:30
*** mexiKON is now known as ameriKON23:30
slinkPwhat's KON from anyway?23:30
benjiwel, there's your problem, using old-style functional tests is too hard23:30
slinkPbenji: what's the alternative?23:31
MacYET_i think my Five tests have bird flu23:31
WebMaven_an example for POST, please?23:31
benjilook at the "Forms" section23:32
benjior actually, WebMaven_, starting at the top and reading down might be faster23:33
slinkPthanke benji23:34
benjiif you have any questions on testbrowser, you know where to find me23:34
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slinkPbenji:  i've noticed the urls in that README all start with http://localhost/...    is that necessary?  and is it meaningful?23:46
srichterslinkP: you can have what you want, since the tests are sent directly to the publisher23:47
srichterbut I think the URL as to be valid for the request to parse things correctly23:48
benjibut "localhost" is a good "doesn't-really-matter" value23:48
srichter"localhost" is pretty much the current convention23:48
srichteryep, I agree23:48
slinkPok ... so, necessary but meaningless... thanks23:48
slinkPhmm yes looks like _mech_open() will barf if it's not an absolute url23:49
srichterwhich makes sense23:50
srichterremember that mechanize is meant to deal with a real HTTP server23:51
slinkPah ok23:52

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