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| SteveA | philiKON: hello | 01:16 |
|---|---|---|
| philiKON | hi | 01:16 |
| SteveA | i'm looking for an example of the new functional testing stuff | 01:16 |
| SteveA | so that michael and i can copy it for an example of what we're working on | 01:17 |
| SteveA | but i was unable to find any examples in .txt files in ftest directories in the zope3 source | 01:17 |
| SteveA | any idea where i should look? | 01:17 |
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| SteveA | philiKON: ??? | 01:20 |
| * philiKON reads | 01:20 | |
| philiKON | "new" functional testing stuff? | 01:20 |
| philiKON | you mean testbrowser? | 01:20 |
| philiKON | or the layer stuff? | 01:20 |
| SteveA | the testbrowser kind of stuff | 01:21 |
| philiKON | zope.testbrowser | 01:21 |
| SteveA | thanks | 01:22 |
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| eins | hi | 07:59 |
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| roym | what is the recommemdation on viewlets/pagelets. Jeff Shell's blog entry seems to suggest they are a new technology - philiKONs post (if I recall correctly) suggests getting rid of them. Should I develop w/viewlets going forward? | 15:21 |
| mgedmin | viewlets are very useful in certain conditions | 15:25 |
| mgedmin | I read Jeff Shell's post -- IIRC he indicated viewlets were a new technology for him, so he did not have a full understanding of all the implications, or an opinion on viewlets | 15:26 |
| mgedmin | I do not recall reading philiKON's post on viewlets, where is it? | 15:26 |
| roym | mgedmin: I will dig and look for it, and maybe I am not remembering right, but he had a blog entry about a list of peeves/improvements for Z3. | 15:31 |
| * mgedmin googles and finds http://www.z3lab.org/sections/blogs/philipp-weitershausen/ | 15:38 | |
| mgedmin | I think philiKON did not suggest getting rid of viewlets | 15:40 |
| mgedmin | he suggested getting rid of <browser:viewlet /> ZCML directive | 15:40 |
| mgedmin | and replacing it with a standard adapter (or maybe subscriber?) directive | 15:40 |
| mgedmin | http://www.z3lab.org/sections/blogs/philipp-weitershausen/2005_12_14_zcml-needs-to-do-less/ | 15:41 |
| roym | mgedmin: thanks for the clarification. | 15:43 |
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| roym | By the way, besides schooltool, are there any reasonably sized implementations of zope3 that I could look at. | 15:44 |
| mgedmin | I cannot think of any | 15:44 |
| mgedmin | there are a number of usefuly libraries for zope 3, though | 15:45 |
| mgedmin | stephan's recent proposal gave links | 15:45 |
| roym | can you point me to that | 15:45 |
| * mgedmin googles | 15:45 | |
| mgedmin | roym, http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=zope3-dev&m=114047107305792&w=2 | 15:48 |
| roym | many thanks. | 15:49 |
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| srichter | mkerrin: so you ran the lithmus tests already? | 16:53 |
| mkerrin | yipe - it just took 1 minute to run from downloading it | 16:53 |
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| srichter | mkerrin: cool | 16:58 |
| srichter | mkerrin: how many are failing? | 16:58 |
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| mkerrin | 16 failed in the handling of PROPFIND, with 10 warnings then the make script to run the tests fails | 17:00 |
| mkerrin | it don't think it got has fair has running the lock tests - but I am guessing a bunch of tests would fail in here too | 17:00 |
| srichter | how many PROPFIND tests are there? | 17:01 |
| mkerrin | 26 tests - this was against my WebDAV branch but I managed to pass the all the basic tests (15 tests) and copymove tests (12 tests) | 17:05 |
| srichter | great! | 17:05 |
| srichter | this is good news I think | 17:05 |
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| mkerrin | I think so - it is also nice to have something to aim at - to pass all the litmus tests:-) | 17:06 |
| srichter | yep! :-) | 17:07 |
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| MacYET_ | Theuni: no sprinting? | 18:44 |
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| Theuni | MacYET_, I got a kind of cold on monday. I'm better today, but I'll stay a couple more hours in bed. I think I'll join you later today. | 18:45 |
| MacYET_ | same here | 18:45 |
| Theuni | hu? | 18:45 |
| Theuni | You too? | 18:45 |
| MacYET_ | also catched a cold yesterday | 18:45 |
| MacYET_ | fucked up AC | 18:45 |
| Theuni | indeed | 18:45 |
| Theuni | Although I had the feeling it was better tuned yesterday. | 18:45 |
| * MacYET_ goes into the sun later and do some shopping | 18:45 | |
| Theuni | You all should be sitting at the pool. The weather is so nice! | 18:46 |
| MacYET_ | i was already in the pool | 18:46 |
| Theuni | Go to the sauna! | 18:46 |
| * Theuni 's hotel doesn't have a sauna. | 18:46 | |
| Theuni | hmm | 18:47 |
| MacYET_ | well, that's the 10 USD difference :) | 18:47 |
| Theuni | for me it was 140 USD difference | 18:47 |
| Theuni | I tried to book the room a few hours too late | 18:47 |
| MacYET_ | ups | 18:47 |
| MacYET_ | :) | 18:47 |
| * Theuni goes for more ibuprofene | 18:48 | |
| MacYET_ | dcc send theuni bestwishes | 18:48 |
| Theuni | which reminds me that i should buy one of those large packs over here | 18:48 |
| Theuni | thanks | 18:48 |
| Theuni | back to bed | 18:49 |
| slinkP | Theuni: sorry to hear it, hope we see you tomorrow | 18:49 |
| WebMaven | yeah, get some rest. | 18:50 |
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| sm | good day all | 21:15 |
| benji | hi, sm | 21:16 |
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| sm | interesting list threads... | 21:16 |
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| benji | sm, you use the word "interesting" in a novel way :) | 21:37 |
| sm | I've enjoyed the z3 thread :) | 21:39 |
| sm | I agree most with jim, for the record | 21:39 |
| sm | the zopes are not positioned well right now for outsiders | 21:41 |
| benji | perhaps, but his suggestion /seems/ to be to switch dev focus from Z3 to Z2 and turn Z3 into a set of building blocks that are used in Z2 | 21:45 |
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| sm | I didn't read it that way | 21:50 |
| philiKON | benji, except that it's not about switching dev focus away from z3 | 21:50 |
| philiKON | benji, it's just that we focus on 1 app server and on 1 set of libraries | 21:50 |
| sm | I read "remove the cloud of doom hanging over zope2" and "keep the zope 3 framework clean and unencumbered" ... | 21:51 |
| philiKON | it's really going to stay as it is (with people improving z3 and other people evolving z2), only that we're not putting effort in making zope.app catch up with zope 2 | 21:51 |
| benji | philiKON, "not putting effort in making zope.app catch up with zope 2" sounds like we'll instead be using the equivelant code from Z2; doesn't sound appealing | 21:53 |
| philiKON | a) there can and will still be z3-only apps (if you don't need all of the application server features), b) z2 is evolving. the goal is that "zope 5" would be z3ish for the people who don't want z2 features | 21:54 |
| benji | and people who want just 1 Z2 feature? | 21:55 |
| benji | (that requires aquaisition, and some crazy subclassing, etc., etc.) | 21:55 |
| philiKON | i don't think the feature itself would require acquisition and such | 21:56 |
| philiKON | we know from z3 that catalogs, for example, are possible without z2 weirdness | 21:56 |
| benji | that's because the new ones were implemented in z3 first, and then moved, if it takes extra effort to make something "z3-clean" most won't bother | 21:57 |
| philiKON | right, but it's eating a lot of resources trying to reimplement the features in z3 first | 21:58 |
| philiKON | the catalog isn't where the zcatalog is yet | 21:58 |
| philiKON | etc. | 21:58 |
| benji | yep, doing things write the second time takes work | 21:59 |
| benji | s/write/right | 21:59 |
| benji | (my spelling is especially bad today) | 21:59 |
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| philiKON | yep. that's why we should perhaps only do it once, not twice | 22:00 |
| philiKON | anyways, i guess it boils down to the different preferences that people have for the future of their apps | 22:00 |
| benji | so the z2 versions of everything are perfect, darn, I've been wasting my time | 22:00 |
| philiKON | :) | 22:01 |
| * sm thinks z2/z3 style behaviour can be offered by one "zope".. heck even if Zope 4/5 installs both z2 & z3 appservers and tells you to put your code where you like, it would be easier for people | 22:01 | |
| benji | re "different preferences", I'd say most z3 user/developer's preference is to use z3, if they wanted z2, they'd be using it, if they needed to transition an app, they'd be using Five in the hopes of eventually dumping z2 | 22:02 |
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| benji | right, sm, also my Windows box is Linux compatible too, I just have to reconfigure the bits on the harddrive a little bit | 22:03 |
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| benji | shhh! The teacher's back. | 22:03 |
| sm | you're disagreeing with me there I think ? :) | 22:03 |
| benji | yep :) | 22:04 |
| philiKON | sm, your suggestion seems appealing :) | 22:04 |
| philiKON | sm, all in all the confusion over two zopes as well as the neglect for the "middle class programmer" who could enter with zope 2 easily is worse than having to work out some of the technicalities regarding a combine zope, i think | 22:05 |
| philiKON | and, then there's always the set of libraries for the z3 fans | 22:05 |
| benji | except, philiKON, that that's exactly how the situation is today, except that they decide before downloading instead of after | 22:05 |
| philiKON | i think you can create lots of apps only with the components | 22:05 |
| sm | well, imagine.. it would be what we have now, but with packaging, releasing, naming etc. simplified :) | 22:05 |
| sm | could they run out of the same zodb ? | 22:06 |
| srichter | I, as a Zope 3 consumer, do not just want Zope 3 libraries; I want the app server, so I can build working Zope 3 applications | 22:06 |
| philiKON | sm, well, yes and no. when zope 2 starts using zope.publisher and zope.security, it'll actually be a lot of the same stuff (probably even the same startup machiner etc.), except that you configure them differently | 22:06 |
| srichter | I think Steve and Canonical are the exception right now by using the Zope 3 libs more as a collection of packages than an app server | 22:07 |
| philiKON | zope 2 is an example too :) | 22:07 |
| philiKON | twisted uses zope.interface, turbogears wants to start using the transaction package | 22:07 |
| mgedmin | srichter, you could say that schooltool does the same thing | 22:07 |
| mgedmin | (Steve's influence) | 22:07 |
| benji | srichter, I think that is what Jim and other's don't seem to understand, I believe that the vast majority of z3 users like it as is (or more so, like the direction it's going) | 22:08 |
| srichter | mgedmin: but only barely, and we are striving to not do our own setup anymore | 22:08 |
| philiKON | benji, seems like the discussion after my proposal all over again | 22:08 |
| rockyburt | vast majority of z3 users? you mean all 6 of them? :) | 22:08 |
| srichter | mgedmin: and we are really using the entire app server setup code, not just the libs | 22:08 |
| philiKON | rockyburt, :))) | 22:08 |
| mgedmin | it's a matter of perspective | 22:08 |
| mgedmin | to me the big difference is "one app that dictates policy" vs "many apps in a CMS-like framework" | 22:09 |
| srichter | rockyburt: more people than you might expect are building pure Zope 3 apps; they just tend to not come out of the closet | 22:09 |
| sm | current z3 users should not outweigh the users we want to attract | 22:09 |
| philiKON | we've been brainstorming briefly about simplifying the zope.publisher code and making publication objects superfluous. they're very complicated and actually the "heart" of the apps erver right now | 22:09 |
| mgedmin | I'd like traversal to be simpler, but I am not entirely sure I know what I'd like it to be | 22:09 |
| philiKON | if the publication becomes more eventy instead of subclassy, then a lot of the z3 app server is chunked down into pieces | 22:09 |
| benji | sm, a bird in hand... | 22:10 |
| mgedmin | sounds good | 22:10 |
| srichter | sm: so you prefer to alienate all of the current users of Zope 3 and the apps they have developed in favor of attracting new ones? | 22:10 |
| rockyburt | srichter: i work with zope2 developers everyday but rarely work with zope3 developers so i'm allowed to use my narrow-minded tunnel vision to make jokes :) | 22:10 |
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| sm | no, you oversimplify | 22:10 |
| sm | but to focus only on current users is a losing strategy I think | 22:10 |
| philiKON | srichter, noone wants to do that | 22:10 |
| philiKON | srichter, "zope 5" (for the lack of a better name) could be configured not to include any of the z2 shit. that's an explicit goal. | 22:11 |
| srichter | I have repeatedly asked for technical details on the vision, but have not gotten any yet via the lists | 22:11 |
| philiKON | and when zope 2 and 3 acutally share essential components like zope.publisher and zope.security, that seems very very probable | 22:11 |
| philiKON | well, that's the vision right there. zope 2 will use more z3 stuff so that the differences are really in OFS+Products vs. zope.* | 22:12 |
| srichter | so why is then the new vision not just to make Zope 2 an add-on package (a large one) of Zope 3? | 22:12 |
| philiKON | srichter, sure, why not | 22:12 |
| srichter | and call that add-on pakcage the compatibility layer? | 22:12 |
| philiKON | fine by me | 22:12 |
| srichter | this avoids a new name and seems clearer | 22:12 |
| srichter | ok, great then | 22:12 |
| srichter | :-) | 22:12 |
| philiKON | i don't care about naming, excep tthat i just want to avoid confusion | 22:12 |
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| srichter | I think any name change would provide more confusion | 22:13 |
| philiKON | i still think that the little pieces that zope 3 is composed of could use a different name | 22:13 |
| srichter | Zope 3 is starting to have some tracktion itself | 22:13 |
| * philiKON wouldn't mind zopelib | 22:13 | |
| srichter | actually, this solution is nicer in a different respect too | 22:14 |
| benji | I don't think there's enough traction for the-bits-that-make-up-zope-3 to warrent naming them | 22:14 |
| rockyburt | its funny, the majority of the zope2 community (that are actively learning new techniques) wants to get to zope3 style development but would like some way to take their old baggage with them but i feel like the zope3 community doesn't want us :( | 22:15 |
| rockyburt | we're outcasts! | 22:16 |
| rockyburt | the z2 community doesn't want us | 22:16 |
| srichter | rockyburt: really? | 22:16 |
| rockyburt | the z3 community doesn't want us | 22:16 |
| srichter | rockyburt: I thought the that with an effort like Cubed we wanted to clearly send a message | 22:16 |
| benji | who are "us" rockyburt? Plone? | 22:16 |
| rockyburt | srichter: unfortunately the message with Cubed was we cannot take our plone baggage with us but we can recreate it if we want | 22:17 |
| rockyburt | benji: lol, no... me and my circle of friends :) | 22:17 |
| * rockyburt doesn't dare speak on behalf of plone | 22:17 | |
| benji | ahh, *I* want you rockyburt, feel loved | 22:17 |
| rockyburt | ahhhh :) | 22:18 |
| philiKON | benji, i think there *is* a lot of traction there. the turbogears people here drool when they look at what we implemented... and our stuff is of production-level quality and not just some hack... | 22:18 |
| benji | maybe, philiKON, if so I'd welcome paricipation from them (on some "official" level) | 22:19 |
| philiKON | well, perhaps they just want to use the stuff | 22:20 |
| benji | I think we could help/learn much | 22:20 |
| philiKON | ez_install zope.session | 22:20 |
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| benji | I find that when smart, motivated people use your stuff they tend to get involved (more or less) | 22:21 |
| GaryPoster | somebody told me that rockyburt didn't feel loved...I'm here to share the love :-) | 22:21 |
| philiKON | hey GaryPoster | 22:21 |
| GaryPoster | hey philiKON :-) | 22:21 |
| * sm wouldn't mind a libs name either.. zope.* sounds like zope only | 22:23 | |
| whit | zope.component meets rulesdispatch | 22:24 |
| whit | I can dig it | 22:24 |
| rockyburt | haha GaryPoster | 22:24 |
| GaryPoster | :-) | 22:25 |
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| benji | sm, I have some simpathy for shying away from the "zope." prefix; I've had several people think that zope.testbrowser is only usable inside Zope | 22:25 |
| sm | exactly | 22:26 |
| benji | OTOH, if we publish lots of packages named like that the "zope" brand might take on a new meaning, I don't know if it's worth the effort thow | 22:26 |
| sm | zlib is taken, eh | 22:26 |
| benji | :) | 22:26 |
| benji | I propose a ban on any name with "z" in it | 22:26 |
| sm | woah! heresy! :) | 22:26 |
| * rockyburt thinks zopelib would be a nice name as well, would certainly make it less confusing when teaching people new zope3 techniques in zope2 -- "teacher to student: oh, in order to do this you need to build a zope 3 component student to teacher: but teacher i'm using zope 2" | 22:26 | |
| benji | "zopelib" is too long and still gives the zope-only impression | 22:27 |
| * sm tries zedlib | 22:27 | |
| whit | why don't we just name popelib after jim? | 22:27 |
| benji | and it has a "z" in it! | 22:27 |
| rockyburt | hooooow much time have i wasted just having to explain how its possible to use zope3 *in* zope2 | 22:27 |
| whit | it | 22:27 |
| rockyburt | well i don't care if its called zopelib | 22:27 |
| rockyburt | i just mean calling it something other than zope3 ;) | 22:27 |
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| whit | mcdonc! | 22:28 |
| mcdonc | egads | 22:28 |
| mcdonc | whit! | 22:28 |
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| rockyburt | one of these days i'm going to get out of software development and enter the hollywood biz and make a soap opera entitled, "The Days of our Zopes" | 22:30 |
| rockyburt | :) | 22:30 |
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| * rockyburt wonders why mcdonc had to make everyone be quiet like that | 22:32 | |
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| mcdonc | rockyburt: set off my pycon wmd... we now must rebuild. ;-) | 22:35 |
| rockyburt | :) | 22:35 |
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| * WebMaven_ and slinkP are baffled | 23:23 | |
| WebMaven_ | stupid tests | 23:23 |
| benji | are you sure it's the tests that are stupid :) | 23:24 |
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| MacYET_ | tests are usually as stupid as the programmer that wrote them | 23:26 |
| WebMaven_ | mine must be pretty stupid, then. | 23:27 |
| benji | I guess stupid really *is* as stupid does | 23:27 |
| WebMaven_ | yeah. | 23:28 |
| WebMaven_ | Can't get a simple form submission to succeed as a functional Doctest | 23:28 |
| slinkP | baffled is not merely a state for me, it's a genetic trait | 23:28 |
| WebMaven_ | I'm going to post the doctest: | 23:28 |
| benji | WebMaven_, in a pastebin, I hope | 23:29 |
| slinkP | no benji, we are going to msg it to you personally :) | 23:30 |
| *** mexiKON is now known as ameriKON | 23:30 | |
| benji | yay! | 23:30 |
| WebMaven_ | http://paste.plone.org/2699 | 23:30 |
| slinkP | what's KON from anyway? | 23:30 |
| WebMaven_ | Deutchland | 23:30 |
| benji | wel, there's your problem, using old-style functional tests is too hard | 23:30 |
| WebMaven_ | OK. | 23:31 |
| slinkP | benji: what's the alternative? | 23:31 |
| MacYET_ | i think my Five tests have bird flu | 23:31 |
| benji | testbrowser | 23:31 |
| WebMaven_ | an example for POST, please? | 23:31 |
| benji | http://svn.zope.org/Zope3/trunk/src/zope/testbrowser/README.txt?rev=41778&view=markup | 23:32 |
| benji | look at the "Forms" section | 23:32 |
| benji | or actually, WebMaven_, starting at the top and reading down might be faster | 23:33 |
| slinkP | thanke benji | 23:34 |
| WebMaven_ | thanks | 23:34 |
| benji | np | 23:34 |
| benji | if you have any questions on testbrowser, you know where to find me | 23:34 |
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| slinkP | benji: i've noticed the urls in that README all start with http://localhost/... is that necessary? and is it meaningful? | 23:46 |
| srichter | slinkP: you can have what you want, since the tests are sent directly to the publisher | 23:47 |
| srichter | but I think the URL as to be valid for the request to parse things correctly | 23:48 |
| benji | but "localhost" is a good "doesn't-really-matter" value | 23:48 |
| srichter | "localhost" is pretty much the current convention | 23:48 |
| srichter | yep, I agree | 23:48 |
| slinkP | ok ... so, necessary but meaningless... thanks | 23:48 |
| slinkP | hmm yes looks like _mech_open() will barf if it's not an absolute url | 23:49 |
| srichter | which makes sense | 23:50 |
| srichter | remember that mechanize is meant to deal with a real HTTP server | 23:51 |
| slinkP | ah ok | 23:52 |
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