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| srichter | j1m_: new version of JaWE is out | 02:15 |
|---|---|---|
| srichter | (well, 2.0 RC 2) | 02:15 |
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| newpers | is there something in schema that will prevent duplicates? | 05:02 |
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| newpers | or is this done with containment constraints? | 05:30 |
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| newpers | also what's the deal with IContained. should i be using that or not? | 07:05 |
| newpers | ohh.. 6:08 german time | 07:09 |
| newpers | am | 07:09 |
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| joshz | newpers: what do you think you should use IContained for? | 08:20 |
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| eins | hi | 08:49 |
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| romanofski | moin | 09:53 |
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| philiKON | j1m_, did you see my email regarding back35.py? | 14:33 |
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| elro | Hi there, I'm trying to use the zc.table.table.StandaloneSortFormatter for my table, but I don't seem to get any of the sort stuff displayed. any ideas why? | 18:02 |
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| elro | it looks just like the output from plain Formatter | 18:02 |
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| elro | Are there any examples of using zc.table around? (except the extensive readme) | 18:36 |
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| benji | not that I know of elro, I wish I had time to help :( | 18:42 |
| elro | thanks anyhow | 18:43 |
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| joshz | q: does zope3 implement aquisition? | 18:57 |
| srichter | not directly | 18:58 |
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| srichter | it uses the concept of acquistion for its security and component lookup | 18:58 |
| joshz | can you explain that a bit more? | 18:58 |
| joshz | but the content space does not have aquisition? | 18:58 |
| srichter | right, not by default | 18:58 |
| joshz | is it easy to implement? | 18:58 |
| srichter | I *think* in a URL or TALES traversal you can say: path/to/object/++acquire++variable | 18:59 |
| srichter | well, Zope 3 really discourages acquistion | 18:59 |
| srichter | you should use utilities or adapters instead | 18:59 |
| joshz | as a zope2 user i understand why | 18:59 |
| srichter | acquisition makes it very hard to argue about the software | 19:00 |
| joshz | its seems like there are a lot of management issues with zope3 | 19:00 |
| joshz | what do you think this is due to? | 19:00 |
| srichter | managment issues? | 19:01 |
| joshz | lots of disagreement... no? | 19:01 |
| srichter | well, there is always disagreement | 19:01 |
| srichter | that's a result of open discussion | 19:01 |
| joshz | true | 19:01 |
| srichter | if we want a papal's edict we'll have one | 19:01 |
| joshz | well I am ready to use zope 3 for a major project... but my main concern is capacity | 19:02 |
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| joshz | hah spoken like a true european | 19:02 |
| srichter | just a few things have accumulated over time, so there was more traffic than usual | 19:02 |
| srichter | but those issues have to be discussed and like all controversial issues, opinions vary widely | 19:03 |
| srichter | what do you mean by "capacity"? | 19:03 |
| joshz | will this thing hold up in a really heavy load? | 19:03 |
| srichter | well, there are some fairly large installations out there, so I think it does | 19:03 |
| joshz | can you point me to a big install? | 19:03 |
| srichter | you can still choose between twisted and zserver | 19:04 |
| srichter | I don't think any are public | 19:04 |
| joshz | what are the advantages of either? | 19:04 |
| srichter | but Zope Corp and Infrae both did document management libraries on top of Zope 3 | 19:04 |
| joshz | used in intranets? | 19:04 |
| srichter | Projekt01 developed Tiks which runs for Amadeus Consulting Switzerland | 19:04 |
| joshz | i like where Zope Corp has been going | 19:04 |
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| joshz | do they have plans to go public? | 19:04 |
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| joshz | Zope has a distinct European aspect ive noticed | 19:05 |
| srichter | it is publically known that they developed the site | 19:06 |
| srichter | I doubt the site will go public | 19:06 |
| joshz | i mean public as in publically traded... like Gmbh | 19:06 |
| joshz | actually I think I am misusing this term Gmbh | 19:07 |
| joshz | please excuse me... | 19:07 |
| srichter | you have to ask them, I am not affiliated with them | 19:07 |
| joshz | i see | 19:07 |
| joshz | I am thinking about possibly making an OpenID utility http://openid.net/ | 19:09 |
| joshz | has anyone implemented this? | 19:09 |
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| srichter | not that I know of, though the Plone people work a lot on id generation | 19:12 |
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| joshz | ok... well thanks srichter | 19:13 |
| srichter | you are welcome | 19:14 |
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| joshz | srichter: btw- what is happening to the plone people with z3? | 19:36 |
| srichter | joshz: ask them, but they are converging | 19:37 |
| srichter | Plone uses already many Zope 3 technologies | 19:37 |
| joshz | a lot of my concerns are in marketability | 19:37 |
| joshz | if I have a startup they ask what it is built in | 19:37 |
| joshz | it just doesnt have the sex appeal( if youl permit the term here ) that frameworks like ruby have | 19:38 |
| joshz | but I know that it is worth using | 19:38 |
| joshz | I find the average person gives up on zope | 19:38 |
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| joshz | too steep learning curve | 19:38 |
| srichter | well, but Zope has a much better track record than RoR | 19:39 |
| srichter | and honestly, this is what investors are concerned about | 19:39 |
| joshz | you don't have to sell it to me, youre preaching to the converted | 19:39 |
| srichter | they do not care much about hype | 19:39 |
| elro | most customers haven't heard of zope or RoR | 19:39 |
| srichter | I don't, but I think buzz in the Open Source community != buzz in the investor community | 19:39 |
| joshz | most customers, im talking angel/VC money | 19:39 |
| joshz | ruby has a lot of buzz here on west coast america | 19:40 |
| elro | Plone has a good brand and is a 'Product' so easier to sell to customers than homebrewed solutions | 19:40 |
| joshz | Plone has some traction, certainly | 19:40 |
| joshz | elro: do you do small med business consulting | 19:42 |
| elro | yup, and large charity consulting ;-) | 19:42 |
| joshz | it is in the 'dazzle segment' as I call it that zope has no clout | 19:43 |
| joshz | i think it is clearly a superior platform | 19:43 |
| joshz | the only large site in RoR is by the people who made RoR | 19:43 |
| elro | Plone (and therefore zope) can point to several large oxfam sites among many others | 19:44 |
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| whit | developer.ebay | 19:44 |
| joshz | "oxfam"? | 19:44 |
| elro | but that does not mean that Plone would be a better bet than RoR fo small sites | 19:45 |
| joshz | ebay uses zope? | 19:45 |
| whit | disney intranet | 19:45 |
| elro | http://www.oxfam.org | 19:45 |
| whit | the Brazilian Parliament | 19:45 |
| whit | I could go on | 19:45 |
| joshz | i think RoR is more of a multi-level marketing scheme than open source | 19:45 |
| whit | yup | 19:45 |
| elro | Am finally trying to get off of plone for non content management work, so in zope3 at the moment | 19:45 |
| joshz | its typically associated with Web2.0 | 19:45 |
| whit | the the 37 signals angle | 19:45 |
| whit | zope could learn from that | 19:46 |
| joshz | Web2.0 is a service mark of CMP Media | 19:46 |
| whit | it just has some trouble getting everyone on the same page | 19:46 |
| joshz | the whole thing is rather stinky if you ask me | 19:46 |
| whit | it's easy if you have a virgin platform and message | 19:46 |
| whit | zope is more of it's own ecosystem | 19:46 |
| elro | I think part of the problem is that no-one really has the time and energy to go out and preach it to other developers (customers yes, but not developers) | 19:47 |
| joshz | i think thats why they chose ruby, in order to have a clear distinction from other platforms like it | 19:47 |
| joshz | whit + elro | 19:47 |
| joshz | : you are right on point | 19:47 |
| joshz | its not lack of time and energy it is lack of incentive | 19:48 |
| joshz | DC should have a VAR program | 19:48 |
| whit | yup | 19:48 |
| joshz | sorry Zope corp | 19:48 |
| joshz | here in AZ we have Refresh | 19:48 |
| elro | I believe they do to a certain extent, but it does not seem to have really taken off | 19:49 |
| joshz | it certainly has a very distinct 37 signals thing about it | 19:49 |
| joshz | elro: as I said 'sex appeal' | 19:49 |
| whit | here's the thing.....zope people don't really have to market to have work | 19:49 |
| whit | not in the flashy sense | 19:49 |
| joshz | whit: true, but they really lose because they don't have that market appeal | 19:50 |
| whit | there is a market so there is less impetus to go out and create one | 19:50 |
| joshz | there woudl be far more people getting involved | 19:50 |
| whit | define lose | 19:50 |
| whit | keep an eye of the RoR community | 19:50 |
| joshz | user base = ecosystem growth | 19:50 |
| joshz | I find the RoR people talk more than do | 19:51 |
| whit | or general collapse | 19:51 |
| elro | I know at least three companies in the UK advertising for zope people right now, and as far as I know none have yet been able to hire anyone | 19:51 |
| whit | you have to have something feeding the ecosystem | 19:51 |
| whit | aka money | 19:51 |
| joshz | hmmm | 19:51 |
| whit | otherwhise, you just get a code explosion and alot of people heading in different directions | 19:51 |
| joshz | ala PHP | 19:51 |
| whit | I don't deny that zope could do a better job of cleaning up nice | 19:52 |
| joshz | i certainly hand it to Fulton for his organization efforts | 19:52 |
| elro | I think the zope development community probably has as much in common with lotus notes consultants more than php-like web houses | 19:52 |
| joshz | ive been involved in the java web dev world as well | 19:52 |
| joshz | and there are huge problems with the java web frameworkds | 19:53 |
| joshz | EJB is insane | 19:53 |
| kamalgill | here's an interesting screencast by a fellow at NASA comparing Zope/Plone with RoR, J2EE, TurboGears, and Django http://oodt.jpl.nasa.gov/better-web-app.mov | 19:53 |
| joshz | saw it, great! | 19:53 |
| joshz | the problem is generally that ruby is easier to pick up | 19:54 |
| joshz | zope has got all this extra stuff that confuse the newcomer | 19:54 |
| joshz | but it is commendable that ZC did not dumb it down | 19:55 |
| elro | yeah, starting off with zope3 has been a steep learning curve, and I'm coming from a plone / z2 background | 19:55 |
| whit | do you mean rails or ruby? | 19:55 |
| joshz | rails | 19:55 |
| whit | I have faith that z3 is moving in the right direction for making that easier | 19:56 |
| joshz | i don't know if you have seen one of the RoR presentations these guys are doing | 19:56 |
| * whit has seen them | 19:56 | |
| joshz | "I can make a website with one hand tied behind my back" | 19:56 |
| * whit shrugs | 19:56 | |
| whit | same as django and TG | 19:56 |
| whit | if you want instant CRUD | 19:56 |
| whit | that's great | 19:57 |
| whit | I don't think that is really zope's selling point | 19:57 |
| joshz | yeah my experience tells me there are major problems with the ruby way | 19:57 |
| joshz | most of them are just looking at the nice graphics that 37 signals produces | 19:57 |
| whit | ruby guys say up front "if you follow the path, it's easy. If you diverge, it's just as hard as java" | 19:57 |
| whit | rails rather | 19:58 |
| joshz | sounds more like a religion than a platform | 19:58 |
| whit | zope probably could stand to have some better paved paths and faster entry strategies | 19:58 |
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| whit | but what you end up with is far more flexible and powerful | 19:58 |
| joshz | that is what I was thinking, they need to define some clear demographic groups and show them what it can do | 19:59 |
| whit | whose they? | 19:59 |
| joshz | good point | 19:59 |
| joshz | back to incentives | 19:59 |
| joshz | RoR has a clear 'they' | 19:59 |
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| joshz | there si RoR leadership | 20:00 |
| whit | yup....soon to become murkier | 20:00 |
| joshz | yeah I see that too | 20:00 |
| whit | look...if a marketting firm befriended zope.... | 20:00 |
| whit | we wouldn't be having this conversation | 20:00 |
| joshz | well I am working with a marketing centric group right now | 20:01 |
| whit | in the current situation, marketting happens when people have time to do it | 20:01 |
| joshz | and I see the zope bonuses | 20:01 |
| whit | aha! | 20:01 |
| joshz | but who will pay for zope's marketing | 20:01 |
| joshz | and how will the firm recover from campaign expenses? | 20:01 |
| whit | how does 37 signals do it? | 20:01 |
| whit | there are some avenues | 20:01 |
| joshz | this multi-level marketing thing | 20:01 |
| whit | conferences, boot camps, etc | 20:02 |
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| joshz | ever seen 'infogami'? | 20:02 |
| whit | nope...gotta get back to work | 20:02 |
| joshz | ok | 20:03 |
| joshz | thanks | 20:03 |
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| whit | joshz: if you are really interested in helping craft a marketting story for zope, we could use your help | 20:04 |
| joshz | whit are you at ZC? | 20:04 |
| whit | nope | 20:04 |
| joshz | who are you with then? | 20:05 |
| whit | just a another concerned party | 20:05 |
| whit | I work for a non-profit using plone and Five tech | 20:05 |
| joshz | ok what do you need? | 20:05 |
| joshz | im not registered... | 20:06 |
| joshz | send me your email | 20:06 |
| whit | ah... | 20:06 |
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| whit | that's what I was trying to do | 20:07 |
| joshz | just send a private message with your email like you just did | 20:07 |
| whit | ok | 20:07 |
| joshz | got it thanks | 20:07 |
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| whit | excellent! I'll ping you later. ciao! | 20:07 |
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| joshz | thanks whit | 20:08 |
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| slinkP | well waddya know about that... he's right, developer.ebay.com uses zope 2 .... netcraft doesn't reveal it but a couple of URL guesses do :-) http://developer.ebay.com/p_/zopelogo_jpg http://developer.ebay.com/HelpSys/menu | 21:13 |
| slinkP | i knew HelpSys served some purpose in the world ;) | 21:15 |
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| elro | is it possible to set a formlib form to be submitted via get rather than post? | 21:37 |
| j1m_ | whit, ayt? | 21:38 |
| whit | hey j1m_ | 21:38 |
| j1m_ | I'm going over svn logs | 21:38 |
| j1m_ | getting ready to set up Foundation member invitations. :) | 21:39 |
| j1m_ | and I have entries for "whit" and "whitmo". | 21:39 |
| whit | :) | 21:39 |
| whit | whitmo | 21:39 |
| j1m_ | yeah | 21:39 |
| whit | it's the most current | 21:39 |
| j1m_ | I'm just wondering how "whit" got in there. | 21:39 |
| whit | not sure....could it be another whit? | 21:40 |
| j1m_ | Does z.o let you change your login name? | 21:40 |
| j1m_ | No, there is no "whit" in the ldap db | 21:40 |
| j1m_ | did some Five stuff get imported somehow? | 21:40 |
| whit | possibly | 21:40 |
| j1m_ | hm, curious/ | 21:41 |
| whit | my codespeak login is whit | 21:41 |
| whit | on zope.org, lcompx and whitmo | 21:41 |
| j1m_ | does "walco" ring a bell for you? | 21:41 |
| whit | nope | 21:41 |
| j1m_ | That's another id in the logs and not in ldap. | 21:41 |
| j1m_ | weird | 21:41 |
| whit | is a bit strange...but import would preserve history right? | 21:42 |
| j1m_ | Yes | 21:42 |
| j1m_ | well, not import | 21:42 |
| j1m_ | but a load of a dump file would | 21:42 |
| whit | right...that's what I meant | 21:43 |
| j1m_ | But that would require file-system access afaik. | 21:43 |
| j1m_ | I'll ask Philipp about how Five got into the repo. | 21:43 |
| whit | that would be my guess | 21:43 |
| j1m_ | k | 21:43 |
| * j1m_ looks up and sees whit talking about marketing. Yay! | 21:44 | |
| whit | snared one ;) | 21:45 |
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| slinkP | j1m_: did you know about developer.ebay.com running zope 2? that might make good marketing fodder | 21:47 |
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| benji | slinkP, it might, but you have to be careful about using someone else's trademark (like the name ebay) to promote somthing | 22:16 |
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| senra | Hi, I tried this question at #zope and sm told me to try here instead (though I tink it belongs there). In http://www.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/ZPTInternationalizationExamples, i18n is shown through examples. I wolud like to create PageTemplates in the ZMI that used i18m:translate but I do not know how to bind them to .po files in the file system. Any clues ? | 23:12 |
| senra | Just for reference I'm using Zope 2.9.1 | 23:13 |
| sm | ack.. my mistake | 23:13 |
| sm | come on back :) | 23:13 |
| senra | sm: Ok no problem ;o) | 23:13 |
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| Theuni | srichter: maybe i'm just too dumb to use the localization anyway ... :/ | 23:49 |
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| srichter | Theuni: no | 23:52 |
| srichter | Theuni: I did not understand all of their entries either | 23:52 |
| srichter | but as Jim would put it in todays words: The good outweighed the bad. :-) | 23:52 |
| Theuni | definitely | 23:53 |
| srichter | We got a lot of data for free for pretty much all locales out there. | 23:53 |
| Theuni | i enjoy this stuff beeing around | 23:53 |
| Theuni | actually it seems we are just missing a tiny bit | 23:53 |
| Theuni | there is this special character in currency patterns that indicates where the currency symbol should go | 23:53 |
| Theuni | however, it is never replaced and i can not pass in the currency anywhere | 23:54 |
| srichter | yeah, it seems to be superfluous till you have a situation where you need it and then you say: Darn, this is good to have right now :-) | 23:54 |
| * Theuni points at himself | 23:54 | |
| srichter | right | 23:54 |
| srichter | I think a high-level method doing this correctly would be helpful | 23:54 |
| srichter | if you could implement this, that would be great | 23:55 |
| Theuni | i think i'll read some more about how this symbol is intended to be processed | 23:55 |
| Theuni | maybe i can come up with something clean | 23:55 |
| srichter | cool | 23:55 |
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