IRC log of #zope3-dev for Tuesday, 2006-03-14

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srichterj1m_: new version of JaWE is out02:15
srichter(well, 2.0 RC 2)02:15
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newpersis there something in schema that will prevent duplicates?05:02
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newpersor is this done with containment constraints?05:30
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newpersalso what's the deal with IContained.  should i be using that or not?07:05
newpersohh.. 6:08 german time07:09
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joshznewpers: what do you think you should use IContained for?08:20
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philiKONj1m_, did you see my email regarding
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elroHi there, I'm trying to use the zc.table.table.StandaloneSortFormatter for my table, but I don't seem to get any of the sort stuff displayed. any ideas why?18:02
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elroit looks just like the output from plain Formatter18:02
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elroAre there any examples of using zc.table around? (except the extensive readme)18:36
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benjinot that I know of elro, I wish I had time to help :(18:42
elrothanks anyhow18:43
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joshzq: does zope3 implement aquisition?18:57
srichternot directly18:58
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srichterit uses the concept of acquistion for its security and component lookup18:58
joshzcan you explain that a bit more?18:58
joshzbut the content space does not have aquisition?18:58
srichterright, not by default18:58
joshzis it easy to implement?18:58
srichterI *think* in a URL or TALES traversal you can say: path/to/object/++acquire++variable18:59
srichterwell, Zope 3 really discourages acquistion18:59
srichteryou should use utilities or adapters instead18:59
joshzas a zope2 user i understand why18:59
srichteracquisition makes it very hard to argue about the software19:00
joshzits seems like there are a lot of management issues with zope319:00
joshzwhat do you think this is due to?19:00
srichtermanagment issues?19:01
joshzlots of disagreement... no?19:01
srichterwell, there is always disagreement19:01
srichterthat's a result of open discussion19:01
srichterif we want a papal's edict we'll have one19:01
joshzwell I am ready to use zope 3 for a major project... but my main concern is capacity19:02
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joshzhah spoken like a true european19:02
srichterjust a few things have accumulated over time, so there was more traffic than usual19:02
srichterbut those issues have to be discussed and like all controversial issues, opinions vary widely19:03
srichterwhat do you mean by "capacity"?19:03
joshzwill this thing hold up in a really heavy load?19:03
srichterwell, there are some fairly large installations out there, so I think it does19:03
joshzcan you point me to a big install?19:03
srichteryou can still choose between twisted and zserver19:04
srichterI don't think any are public19:04
joshzwhat are the advantages of either?19:04
srichterbut Zope Corp and Infrae both did document management libraries on top of Zope 319:04
joshzused in intranets?19:04
srichterProjekt01 developed Tiks which runs for Amadeus Consulting Switzerland19:04
joshzi like where Zope Corp has been going19:04
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joshzdo they have plans to go public?19:04
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joshzZope has a distinct European aspect ive noticed19:05
srichterit is publically known that they developed the site19:06
srichterI doubt the site will go public19:06
joshzi mean public as in publically traded... like Gmbh19:06
joshzactually I think I am misusing this term Gmbh19:07
joshzplease excuse me...19:07
srichteryou have to ask them, I am not affiliated with them19:07
joshzi see19:07
joshzI am thinking about possibly making an OpenID utility
joshzhas anyone implemented this?19:09
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srichternot that I know of, though the Plone people work a lot on id generation19:12
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joshzok... well thanks srichter19:13
srichteryou are welcome19:14
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joshzsrichter: btw- what is happening to the plone people with z3?19:36
srichterjoshz: ask them, but they are converging19:37
srichterPlone uses already many Zope 3 technologies19:37
joshza lot of my concerns are in marketability19:37
joshzif I have a startup they ask what it is built in19:37
joshzit just doesnt have the sex appeal( if youl permit the term here ) that frameworks like ruby have19:38
joshzbut I know that it is worth using19:38
joshzI find the average person gives up on zope19:38
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joshztoo steep learning curve19:38
srichterwell, but Zope has a much better track record than RoR19:39
srichterand honestly, this is what investors are concerned about19:39
joshzyou don't have to sell it to me, youre preaching to the converted19:39
srichterthey do not care much about hype19:39
elromost customers haven't heard of zope or RoR19:39
srichterI don't, but I think buzz in the Open Source community != buzz in the investor community19:39
joshzmost customers, im talking angel/VC money19:39
joshzruby has a lot of buzz here on west coast america19:40
elroPlone has a good brand and is a 'Product' so easier to sell to customers than homebrewed solutions19:40
joshzPlone has some traction, certainly19:40
joshzelro: do you do small med business consulting19:42
elroyup, and large charity consulting ;-)19:42
joshzit is in the 'dazzle segment' as I call it that zope has no clout19:43
joshzi think it is clearly a superior platform19:43
joshzthe only large site in RoR is by the people who made RoR19:43
elroPlone (and therefore zope) can point to several large oxfam sites among many others19:44
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elrobut that does not mean that Plone would be a better bet than RoR fo small sites19:45
joshzebay uses zope?19:45
whitdisney intranet19:45
whitthe Brazilian Parliament19:45
whitI could go on19:45
joshzi think RoR is more of a multi-level marketing scheme than open source19:45
elroAm finally trying to get off of plone for non content management work, so in zope3 at the moment19:45
joshzits typically associated with Web2.019:45
whitthe the 37 signals angle19:45
whitzope could learn from that19:46
joshzWeb2.0 is a service mark of CMP Media19:46
whitit just has some trouble getting everyone on the same page19:46
joshzthe whole thing is rather stinky if you ask me19:46
whitit's easy if you have a virgin platform and message19:46
whitzope is more of it's own ecosystem19:46
elroI think part of the problem is that no-one really has the time and energy to go out and preach it to other developers (customers yes, but not developers)19:47
joshzi think thats why they chose ruby, in order to have a clear distinction from other platforms like it19:47
joshzwhit + elro19:47
joshz: you are right on point19:47
joshzits not lack of time and energy it is lack of incentive19:48
joshzDC should have a VAR program19:48
joshzsorry Zope corp19:48
joshzhere in AZ we have Refresh19:48
elroI believe they do to a certain extent, but it does not seem to have really taken off19:49
joshzit certainly has a very distinct 37 signals thing about it19:49
joshzelro: as I said 'sex appeal'19:49
whithere's the thing.....zope people don't really have to market to have work19:49
whitnot in the flashy sense19:49
joshzwhit: true, but they really lose because they don't have that market appeal19:50
whitthere is a market so there is less impetus to go out and create one19:50
joshzthere woudl be far more people getting involved19:50
whitdefine lose19:50
whitkeep an eye of the RoR community19:50
joshzuser base = ecosystem growth19:50
joshzI find the RoR people talk more than do19:51
whitor general collapse19:51
elroI know at least three companies in the UK advertising for zope people right now, and as far as I know none have yet been able to hire anyone19:51
whityou have to have something feeding the ecosystem19:51
whitaka money19:51
whitotherwhise, you just get a code explosion and alot of people heading in different directions19:51
joshzala PHP19:51
whitI don't deny that zope could do a better job of cleaning up nice19:52
joshzi certainly hand it to Fulton for his organization efforts19:52
elroI think the zope development community probably has as much in common with lotus notes consultants more than php-like web houses19:52
joshzive been involved in the java web dev world as well19:52
joshzand there are huge problems with the java web frameworkds19:53
joshzEJB is insane19:53
kamalgillhere's an interesting screencast by a fellow at NASA comparing Zope/Plone with RoR, J2EE, TurboGears, and Django
joshzsaw it, great!19:53
joshzthe problem is generally that ruby is easier to pick up19:54
joshzzope has got all this extra stuff that confuse the newcomer19:54
joshzbut it is commendable that ZC did not dumb it down19:55
elroyeah, starting off with zope3 has been a steep learning curve, and I'm coming from a plone / z2 background19:55
whitdo you mean rails or ruby?19:55
whitI have faith that z3 is moving in the right direction for making that easier19:56
joshzi don't know if you have seen one of the RoR presentations these guys are doing19:56
* whit has seen them19:56
joshz"I can make a website with one hand tied behind my back"19:56
* whit shrugs19:56
whitsame as django and TG19:56
whitif you want instant CRUD19:56
whitthat's great19:57
whitI don't think that is really zope's selling point19:57
joshzyeah my experience tells me there are major problems with the ruby way19:57
joshzmost of them are just looking at the nice graphics that 37 signals produces19:57
whitruby guys say up  front "if you follow the path, it's easy. If you diverge, it's just as hard as java"19:57
whitrails rather19:58
joshzsounds more like a religion than a platform19:58
whitzope probably could stand to have some better paved paths and faster entry strategies19:58
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whitbut what you end up with is far more flexible and powerful19:58
joshzthat is what I was thinking, they need to define some clear demographic groups and show them what it can do19:59
whitwhose they?19:59
joshzgood point19:59
joshzback to incentives19:59
joshzRoR has a clear 'they'19:59
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joshzthere si RoR leadership20:00
whityup....soon to become murkier20:00
joshzyeah I see that too20:00
whitlook...if a marketting firm befriended zope....20:00
whitwe wouldn't be having this conversation20:00
joshzwell I am working with a marketing centric group right now20:01
whitin the current situation, marketting happens when people have time to do it20:01
joshzand I see the zope bonuses20:01
joshzbut who will pay for zope's marketing20:01
joshzand how will the firm recover from campaign expenses?20:01
whithow does 37 signals do it?20:01
whitthere are some avenues20:01
joshzthis multi-level marketing thing20:01
whitconferences, boot camps, etc20:02
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joshzever seen 'infogami'?20:02
whitnope...gotta get back to work20:02
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whitjoshz: if you are really interested in helping craft a marketting story for zope, we could use your help20:04
joshzwhit are you at ZC?20:04
joshzwho are you with then?20:05
whitjust a another concerned party20:05
whitI work for a non-profit using plone and Five tech20:05
joshzok what do you need?20:05
joshzim not registered...20:06
joshzsend me your email20:06
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whitthat's what I was trying to do20:07
joshzjust send a private message with your email like you just did20:07
joshzgot it thanks20:07
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whitexcellent! I'll ping you later. ciao!20:07
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joshzthanks whit20:08
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slinkPwell waddya know about that... he's right, uses zope 2 .... netcraft doesn't reveal it but a couple of URL guesses do :-)
slinkPi knew HelpSys served some purpose in the world ;)21:15
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elrois it possible to set a formlib form to be submitted via get rather than post?21:37
j1m_whit, ayt?21:38
whithey j1m_21:38
j1m_I'm going over svn logs21:38
j1m_getting ready to set up Foundation member invitations. :)21:39
j1m_and I have entries for "whit" and "whitmo".21:39
whitit's the most current21:39
j1m_I'm just wondering how "whit" got in there.21:39
whitnot sure....could it be another whit?21:40
j1m_Does z.o let you change your login name?21:40
j1m_No, there is no "whit" in the ldap db21:40
j1m_did some Five stuff get imported somehow?21:40
j1m_hm, curious/21:41
whitmy codespeak login is whit21:41
whiton, lcompx and whitmo21:41
j1m_does "walco" ring a bell for you?21:41
j1m_That's another id in the logs and not in ldap.21:41
whitis a bit strange...but import would preserve history right?21:42
j1m_well, not import21:42
j1m_but a load of a dump file would21:42
whitright...that's what I meant21:43
j1m_But that would require file-system access afaik.21:43
j1m_I'll ask Philipp about how Five got into the repo.21:43
whitthat would be my guess21:43
* j1m_ looks up and sees whit talking about marketing. Yay!21:44
whitsnared one ;)21:45
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slinkPj1m_:  did you know about running zope 2? that might make good marketing fodder21:47
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benjislinkP, it might, but you have to be careful about using someone else's trademark (like the name ebay) to promote somthing22:16
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senraHi, I tried this question at #zope and sm told me to try here instead (though I tink it belongs there).  In, i18n is shown through examples. I wolud like to create PageTemplates in the ZMI that used i18m:translate but I do not know how to bind them to .po files in the file system. Any clues ?23:12
senraJust for reference I'm using Zope 2.9.123:13
smack.. my mistake23:13
smcome on back :)23:13
senrasm: Ok no problem ;o)23:13
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Theunisrichter:  maybe i'm just too dumb to use the localization anyway ... :/23:49
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srichterTheuni: no23:52
srichterTheuni: I did not understand all of their entries either23:52
srichterbut as Jim would put it in todays words: The good outweighed the bad. :-)23:52
srichterWe got a lot of data for free for pretty much all locales out there.23:53
Theunii enjoy this stuff beeing around23:53
Theuniactually it seems we are just missing a tiny bit23:53
Theunithere is this special character in currency patterns that indicates where the currency symbol should go23:53
Theunihowever, it is never replaced and i can not pass in the currency anywhere23:54
srichteryeah, it seems to be superfluous till you have a situation where you need it and then you say: Darn, this is good to have right now :-)23:54
* Theuni points at himself23:54
srichterI think a high-level method doing this correctly would be helpful23:54
srichterif you could implement this, that would be great23:55
Theunii think i'll read some more about how this symbol is intended to be processed23:55
Theunimaybe i can come up with something clean23:55
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