IRC log of #zope3-dev for Friday, 2006-04-21

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romanofskimoin :)10:23
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jachinhi tehre11:32
jachinI'm working though the example program in the zope3 book... and I'm running into trouble trying to make unittests11:33
jachinI'm pretty sure the problem is that I'm using a "release" instead of the SVN checkout11:34
jachinbut I think it would be a valuble exercise to try to figure out how to write tests with my current setup11:35
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jachinI guess.... what I would really like is a good example of a simple "content object"11:36
jachinthat does some different tests11:36
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jachinah... ok... I just figured some something out.  Now I just moved what I was working on to the /lib/python directory and now it appears to be working... at least it is starting to11:42
jachinnow is that where I should be putting everything that I'm working on?11:43
jachinin the book it talks about how I should put thing in /src11:43
jachinis that something that only pertains to the SVN version of zope or is that something that is just outdated?11:44
jachinalso are there any good forums for zope3?11:44
jachinor is the mailing list the best place to get help/advise?11:44
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stainsbyi've only just started using the SVN version .. and yes, there is a src directory there where all the code goes .. use lib/python for non-SVN12:13
stainsbyin fact i just wrote some code i want to contribute12:14
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stainsbythe missing widgets that go with SourceSelectWidget, SourceDropdownWidget12:15
stainsbyin particular, the one I wanted which does the source equivalent of OrderedMultiSelectWidget12:16
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regebroQuick Q: I Zope3, you don't have to have docstrings anymore, right?15:00
regebroDoes it allow you to traverse to things beginning with _?15:00
Theunii think so15:02
Theunithere's no reason anymore to treat _ specially IIRC15:02
regebroYeah, _ works, I just checked.15:02
regebroAnd I think they don't need docstrings, but that's harder to test.15:07
regebro(Michael and me is working on making Zope2 traversal using IPublishTraversal adapters).15:07
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TheuniI can't believe it.15:35
TheuniWe just finished the security target document for the Zope 3 certification.15:35
TheuniAnd we do not have any cold sparkling wine available.15:36
TheuniJust beer.15:36
TheuniI'm preparing a mail sending out the PDF for everyone.15:36
efgewow that's great15:44
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efgewe must have some champagne in the fridge here :)15:44
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efgeTheuni: now we have to wait for the actual certification, how long is it expected to take?15:45
Theuninot exactly. there are still multiple steps there. we have to implement some of the fiction from the document and have to also check for maybe one or two round trips when the TUV has questions. additionally some smaller documents have to be prepared as well (administrator and developer guidance for example)15:48
J1mregebro, congratulations on the z3 publisher in z2 work?15:48
Theunihowever, this was the huge and bad step we've been eagerly waiting for15:48
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regebroThanks. mkerrin did most. :)15:50
J1mis it going to land on the trunk before May 1?15:50
J1mregebro, mkerrin will the z3 publisher work be merged to the trunk and ready for beta by May 1?15:55
TheuniJ1m:  i'm not sure but i'm afraid we won't be ready with the code for the certification on may 1... :/15:56
J1mTheuni, I fear you are right.15:56
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J1mI suppose the certified version could have a slightly different release schedule, if necessary.15:57
regebro(And of course sidnei did most of the twisted stuff.)15:57
mkerrinmaybe :-) - it will definitely need some external eyes to look over it, to make sure that nothing has being left out15:57
J1mFor HTTP, there shouldn't have been much twisted work.15:57
TheuniJ1m:  :). It looks like zagy will start coding on a branch next week. The tasks aren't too big, but they won't be finished on may 1...15:57
regebroThe zope.publisher and twisted integration is optional and configurable in any case.15:58
J1mTheuni, this is going to be a separate release anyway.15:58
J1mI'm anxious to be able to use testbrowser in Z2.15:58
TheuniEffectively we need to: a) provide a way to switch to "certified mode" (via configuration file or something) b) audit log c) the sharing policy d) authentication failure handling e) credential time limit f) smaller stuff15:59
J1mI want something close to for Z2.15:59
TheuniJ1m:  i'm totally fine with that.15:59
J1mI'm guessing that the z3 publisher in z2 would make a z2 version of easier15:59
regebroWere currently trying to make traversal via adapters, so that Zope3 objects get their PublishTraverse and Zope2 gets their PublishTraverse.16:01
regebroThat will probably not be configurable, so I'm more worried about that.16:01
J1mMinor note, which you may not have time to care about:16:02
regebroMajor problem is that getRoles are done differently if the subobject was gotten with __getitem__ than with __getattr__ or __bobo_traverse__16:02
J1mZope 3 should use PublishTraverse for URL namespace traversal, but it doesn't.16:02
J1mThis is really a bug.16:02
* J1m should file a collector issue.16:02
regebroIt doesn't? It looks like it does.16:03
J1mMaybe someone fixed it.  It didn't last time I looked.16:03
regebroOr you mean it you do explicit traverse('/hkhkh/hkh')16:03
* J1m looks16:03
J1mNo, I'm talking about things like ++view++16:04
regebroAh, OK.16:04
regebroNow I understand, right it uses ITraversable for namespaces. I though that was weird too.16:04
regebroI'm gonn write a mail on some issues I have with Zope3 traversal, and propose a refactoring.16:05
regebroBut that can wait for 3.4, I think?16:06
J1mIt's waited this long.16:06
J1mWe only have so much time.16:06
J1mand 3.4 will be in November16:06
regebroExactly. And don't chock the monkey too much at one time. ;)16:06
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J1mBut personally, I really want to be able to use Zope3-style functional tests using testbrowser with Zope 2. :)16:11
J1mNote wrt traversal:16:11
J1min Zope 3, we almost never do non-URL path traversal anymore.16:11
J1mIn fact, I'm sorely tempted to deprecate it, except in ZPT.16:12
J1mThere's really no reason to use it in Zope 3 anymore.16:12
J1mregebro, you might want to factor this into your thinking about traversal refactoring.16:13
regebroJ1m: I'm note 100% sure what non-URL path traversal means...16:14
regebroin this context. You mean traversing tuples, or?16:14
J1mThat's a good sign. :)16:14
J1mzapi.traverse in Zope 3.16:14
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J1m(un)restrictedTraverse in Zope 2.16:14
regebroOh, that's what Phillip calls object-graph traversal.16:15
HammerToeany ZODB gurus around? Under what circumstances is _p_jar == None?16:15
HammerToeis it when an object is ghosted?16:15
HammerToehi Jim :)16:15
J1mregebro, ok, that's a fine term.16:15
J1mHammerToe, just a minute16:15
regebroI don't mind deprecating it, bt philiKON seemed to think the distinction was important.16:15
J1mThe distinction *is very* important.16:16
J1mThat is, if you do object-graph traversal.16:16
regebroOne of the refactorings I was considering is the fact that allthough they are conceptually important the code is almost exactly the same, and mostly duplicated.16:16
J1mBut for Zope 3, we should stop doing it.16:16
J1mIt is far more than just conceptual.16:17
regebroOK, and only use ob[key] consistently?16:17
J1mor ob.attr or whatever16:17
J1min Python code16:17
J1mA major win in Zope 3 is that we don't publish anything unless there is a traverser that traverses to it.16:18
regebroOk, but don't we need a consistent interface? Which in Zope3 would be ob[key]?16:18
J1mwe don't have to worry about accidentally publishing some arbitrary method.16:18
J1mas we do in Z2.16:18
J1mBack when we needed object-graph traversal, it was very important to have different behavior in Python (or ZPT) than we had in URLs.16:19
J1mSo while the code is similar, the fact that we look up traversal adapters using different interfaces is very important.16:19
J1mwert to consistent interfaces, no, we dn't need to be any more consistent than Python is.16:20
J1mwrt to consistent interfaces, no, we don't need to be any more consistent than Python is.16:20
efgeHammerToe: _p_jar is None when the object has been created but the transaction is not yet committed (and add() wasn't called on the container's connection)16:21
J1mPython code should use Python-style object access, which is varied.16:21
J1mHammerToe, efge exatly.  IOW, when the object isn't in a database yet.16:22
regebroWell, what I don't understand is why we don't need object-graph traversal.16:22
HammerToethis is an existing object AFAIK16:22
HammerToeoh wait16:22
HammerToeno it isn't lol16:22
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efgeHammerToe: _p_changed is None when the object is a ghost16:22
J1mregebro, why do we need it?16:23
HammerToeit has just been migrated from another content type.... so was deleted and re-added... I am not trying to copy it in the same transaction and because _p_jar is None cb_moveable() returns false16:23
J1mwe used to need it in z3 to get context wrappers set up correctly.16:23
J1mBut we don't anymore.16:23
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regebroOK, I'll just trust you on that J1m. :)16:24
efgeHammerToe: you can trigger a subtransaction to commit things and get a _p_jar, check what CopySupport or ObjectManager do16:24
J1mNow object-graph traversl just introduces unnecessary magic.16:24
J1mefge, you mean a savepoint :)16:24
HammerToelol jim :)16:25
efgeargh yes :) savepoint16:25
efgeand I meant check those in z216:25
HammerToeerrr.  this is actually Z2.8.6... can't remember which ZODB that comes with... and whether it is savepoint or subtransation in that version16:25
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drzoltron_anyone using kupu on zope3 ?16:33
HammerToeefge /jim: thanks for the help... triggering a savepoint sorts me out :)16:33
regebroJ1m: Well, I half promise to fix the bug and deprecate ITraversal/ITraversable for 3.3.16:34
regebroThat removes 90% of my refactoring ideas, and the rest can wait. :)16:34
drzoltron_hi lennart16:35
regebrohi drzoltron_, all well?16:35
drzoltron_regebro: yeah, finally gained some control over my project, and on your side ?16:36
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regebroAll is well. Some small prohects that are stressed, but nothing major. :)16:37
drzoltron_regebro: how's mr sarkozy these days ;) ?16:38
regebroNot as liberal as he should be.16:38
drzoltron_does kupu work with zope3, anyone ?16:38
J1mregebro, I fear it isn't that simple. :(16:39
J1mWhile I want to deprecate the Python traversal apis, we still need object-graph traversal for ZPT path expressions.16:40
J1mAt least I think we do.16:40
regebroOk, then I don't follow you at all.16:41
J1mI'm on the phone atm...16:41
regebroIf the distinction betwenn object-graph traversal and publishing traversal is important, we can't hve the same API for it.16:41
regebroAnd we must have *some* sort of API for object-graph traversal.16:42
regebroIf we want to do it,16:42
regebrothat is.16:42
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* J1m reviews ITraversable/ITraversal16:48
J1mok, so, I think we should deprecate ITraverser16:49
J1mThe API for object-graph traversal is ITraversable.16:49
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J1mAny code that wants to do that has to get and use the adapter.16:50
J1mThe only code that should do that is ZPT path expresssions.16:50
* J1m quickly reviews tales...16:50
J1mright, ZPT uses ITraversable.16:54
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regebroOK, that makes sense to me.16:55
J1mWe would deprecate the Python traversal APIs like zapi.traverse etc.16:55
regebroI'll propose that, and it may or may not end up in 3.3. :)16:55
J1myup, time is short.16:55
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crocodilHi :)16:56
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crocodilI have a question...16:56
crocodilIs there a VirtualHostMonster on zope3?16:56
crocodilor something similiar...16:56
crocodilis anybody here?16:59
J1myes there is16:59
J1mThere is a URL namespace for doing virtual-host rewriting17:00
regebrocrocodil: Although I  don't know where the docs are. :)17:01
crocodil:D a shame...17:01
crocodilok, I'll look into it :)17:01
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J1mI assume that this is covered in one or both of the books.17:02
J1mThat was implemented ebfore we adopted doctests.17:02
regebroAh, of course it must be in Zope3book at least.17:04
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philiKONJ1m, regebro, it's documented in my book17:52
philiKONJ1m, is there a general way now to make a docfilesuite available as a module in sys.modules ?18:00
philiKONin other words, i'm writing zope.foobar/README.txt and i'd like to import from zope.foobar.README...18:01
J1msee zope.testing.module18:01
philiKONah, great18:01
regebroShould a talinterpreters engine be a TALES Context?18:11
regebroBecause talinterpreter.TALInterpreter.do_useMacro tries to call self.engine.getValue()18:12
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regebroAnd in Zope2 trunk, the engine is a TALES Context, and it doesn't have a getValue() ...18:12
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regebroYeah, that can't possibly work. Trunk seems seriously broken.18:16
regebroBut I suspect the fix is easy if you know what you are doing. :P18:17
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TheuniJ1m:  sorry that we didn't respond to your comments directly. we evaluated all of them and acted on each of it, cleaning stuff up, though18:36
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* mgedmin is going to fix ASAP:
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