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| febb | Hi all | 08:09 |
|---|---|---|
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| eins | hi | 08:33 |
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| febb | hi eins , dobee | 08:36 |
| eins | hi febb | 08:37 |
| febb | whats up ? | 08:37 |
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| febb | hi all | 09:09 |
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| romanofski | moin | 09:38 |
| febb | hi romanofski | 09:43 |
| romanofski | hey febb | 09:43 |
| febb | how are you ? | 09:43 |
| romanofski | thanks fine - how are you? | 09:43 |
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| febb | fine thanks.....trying to get into this Zop3 thing....but documentatio is bad. as usual. and this is knd quiet tonight. | 09:45 |
| romanofski | urks | 09:47 |
| romanofski | do you bought one of the zope3 books? | 09:47 |
| febb | well, yes but haven't got it yet. | 09:49 |
| febb | i dloaded the zope 3 book in the meantime...it is very outdated. | 09:49 |
| febb | we want to jump into Zope 3 but it seems as hard as a learning curve as Zope2 was... | 09:49 |
| romanofski | yeah unfortunately, but there are new to come | 09:49 |
| febb | specially for the "new ones". | 09:50 |
| romanofski | hm... I think it's much easier for the new ones to jump into zope3 | 09:50 |
| romanofski | febb: whats the biggest problem so far febb ? | 09:50 |
| febb | mmm..maybe. we are building apps (transactional applications) and are considering Zope 3 seriously ...as well as Django and turbogears.... | 09:51 |
| febb | Zope 2 was great in some sense but on the other hand it got quite messy... so we want a Python development framework, clean, no extra stuff.... but that helps with the tedious chores such as | 09:52 |
| febb | session andling, user management, passwords, login/logout , etc. | 09:52 |
| febb | Clear and updated documentation would be a great plus. ! of course...thats the most annoying part with Zope 2 and 3 so far. | 09:52 |
| eins | febb Philipp's book is a good one | 09:53 |
| eins | written in a good style:) | 09:54 |
| eins | and not messy at all | 09:54 |
| febb | of course we are willing to give back....docs, translations, docs updates, etc.. but, we have to "get it" first and decide which platform is the "good one" to work with Python, (and Apache, postgresql, ssl). | 09:54 |
| febb | Philips's book.... let me look at amazon now.... | 09:54 |
| eins | "Web component development with Zope 3" | 09:55 |
| febb | Philipp von Weitershausen got it... | 09:55 |
| febb | let me take a look at the index ...maybe I will order it now. | 09:56 |
| eins | it is worth it | 09:57 |
| febb | he's got a web site also...cookery something... seems good. | 09:58 |
| febb | would you say this book is current with the Zope3 latest version ? | 09:59 |
| eins | no | 10:00 |
| eins | but the book itself is good | 10:00 |
| febb | mm....thats bad. I have gotten several online Zope 3 tutorials and documentations and suddenly the reader (a Zope trainee here) discovers that the "features" on the docs are deprecated...... | 10:01 |
| febb | Do you know if there is an electronic version and where to purchase it ? | 10:01 |
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| philiKON | febb, http://worldcookery.com | 10:03 |
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| philiKON | eins, i'm glad you like the book :_ | 10:03 |
| philiKON | :) | 10:03 |
| febb | philiKON, thanks...looks like a good book ... ;) (the first chapter I am looking at, so far)..... | 10:05 |
| febb | are there plans to a new edition? updated? | 10:05 |
| philiKON | yes there are plans | 10:05 |
| philiKON | but no dates yet | 10:05 |
| febb | I see. | 10:06 |
| philiKON | gotta go | 10:06 |
| philiKON | see y'all | 10:06 |
| febb | Are there electronic versions of the book to buy it and d'load it asap ? can't find any... | 10:06 |
| philiKON | no, no electronic versions | 10:06 |
| philiKON | i need to eat too :) | 10:06 |
| febb | Thanks philiKON. take care. | 10:06 |
| febb | too bad no e-book version | 10:06 |
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| febb | well..chapter 1 reads well...but talks about Zope X3 !!!...... not really what we are looking to get into... | 10:08 |
| febb | quite different. | 10:08 |
| eins | febb it won't be too difficult to read the book and try everything on z3.2 | 10:18 |
| eins | most of the things works well on 3.2 | 10:18 |
| eins | just don't panic;) | 10:18 |
| febb | so, a bit of patience is a good advice here, isnt it? Did you guys developed in Zope2 before ? | 10:20 |
| febb | or still ? | 10:20 |
| febb | mostly what I need is something where a working python app (at the python interpreter level) just gets "moved" to a web environment....with all the required bells and whistles like | 10:21 |
| febb | sessions, userlogin/logout, passwords, etc. | 10:21 |
| febb | kinda like a web wrapper for the application. if you know what I mean.. or am looking for. | 10:21 |
| eins | it will be reimplementation of your web app :) | 10:22 |
| eins | not just moving | 10:22 |
| eins | and not a simple one:) | 10:22 |
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| flox | regarding permissions and ++apidoc++ | 17:08 |
| flox | on my dev platform, i want to give permission to zope.Anonymous | 17:09 |
| flox | i hav to assign 2 permissions: zope.app.apidoc.UseAPIDoc and zope.ManageApplication | 17:10 |
| flox | i guess we only need the APIDoc permission... is it a bug, or is it normal? | 17:10 |
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| flox | if i give only the zope.app.apidoc.UseAPIDoc permission, I cannot reach /++apidoc++/ | 17:14 |
| ignas | hdima: ping | 17:14 |
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| hdima | ignas: hi | 17:28 |
| hdima | ignas: something related to the bug #525? | 17:30 |
| ignas | yes | 17:31 |
| ignas | we a.k.a. SchoolTool developers are preparing for a release | 17:32 |
| ignas | and as one of the parts of the application is a Calendar | 17:32 |
| hdima | I think I'll rollback the change and add DateI18NWidget | 17:33 |
| ignas | change in the default date format kind of breaks every integration/functional test ... | 17:33 |
| hdima | ...before the weekend | 17:33 |
| ignas | oh, i hoped that there was a simple way to change the default date parser | 17:34 |
| hdima | DateWidget now use zope.i18n so date/time formats now depends on the locale | 17:35 |
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| hdima | but the zope.i18n date/time parser is so strict for most users | 17:35 |
| ignas | i see :/ | 17:36 |
| hdima | for functional tests the format changed because the default locale (see zope/i18n/locales/data/root.xml) | 17:37 |
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| hdima | There is also a some discussion on the mail list: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope3-dev/2006-June/019630.html | 17:38 |
| ignas | oh | 17:38 |
| ignas | what i found strange was that there is a trailing whitespace in the date format in there | 17:39 |
| ignas | hdima: thanks for the explanation | 17:39 |
| ignas | i have to go now, bye | 17:39 |
| hdima | see root.xml | 17:39 |
| hdima | ok, bye | 17:40 |
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| Theuni | what's the idea of a second beta? any date? | 18:12 |
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| J1m | Theuni, I don't think we should do a second beta until all of the critical bugs are resolves. | 18:48 |
| J1m | (We could decide to downgrade some, if we wish.) | 18:48 |
| Theuni | Right | 18:48 |
| Theuni | I won't be able to do anything on this until mid of next week | 18:48 |
| J1m | Resolving bugs might be a good sprint topic for this weekend. | 18:48 |
| Theuni | I'm not on the sprint, though :/ | 18:49 |
| Theuni | I'd love to help | 18:49 |
| J1m | You already have quite a bit. Of course, more help is welcome. | 18:49 |
| Theuni | I'll see what is left next week :) | 18:49 |
| Theuni | Hopefully, for our release plan, nothing. :) | 18:50 |
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| SteveA | is it still okay to commit to the 3.3 branch? | 19:26 |
| J1m | Yes, for bug fixes. | 19:27 |
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| SteveA | okay | 19:29 |
| SteveA | i made a small fix to the trunk in some BBB code for the LayerField, to allow import hooks to still work. | 19:29 |
| SteveA | I'd like to put that same fix on the 3.3 branch. | 19:30 |
| SteveA | There is code in Zope 3 that wants to distinguish between an "immediate import failure" and an "import failure while importing something else" | 19:31 |
| Theuni | oh yeah ... :) | 19:31 |
| philiKON | zope.deferredimport you mean? | 19:31 |
| SteveA | It uses the number of stack frames in the ImportError to determine this. But, this doesn't work when you have an import hook written in Python. | 19:31 |
| SteveA | One way to solve this is to allow registering of code that says "I will tell you whether this is an immediate-import error or not". | 19:32 |
| SteveA | I don't know about zope.deferredimport. I've seen this kind of code in a couple of places, in slightly different ways. | 19:32 |
| philiKON | zope.deferredimport defers improts to when the objects are acutlaly accessed | 19:32 |
| mgedmin | there was code somewhat like that in generations, only it checked str(exception) rather than the number of stack frames | 19:33 |
| SteveA | does it do that by poking stuff into sys.modules? | 19:33 |
| mgedmin | it broke schooltool at the time, because str(import_error) is not very deterministic | 19:33 |
| philiKON | SteveA, yeah. it wraps the current module in a DeferredWrapper | 19:34 |
| philiKON | iirc | 19:34 |
| SteveA | bzr and mercurial do a similar thing | 19:34 |
| SteveA | to make script start-up faster | 19:34 |
| Theuni | mgedmin: hmm. did that happen recently? | 19:34 |
| mgedmin | a week ago, perhaps | 19:34 |
| Theuni | darn | 19:34 |
| Theuni | that was me | 19:34 |
| mgedmin | ignas fixed it, I think | 19:34 |
| SteveA | there is various badness in the standard library where importing something seemingly innoccuous causes expensive regexes in "inspect" to be compiled | 19:35 |
| Theuni | fixed school tool or generations? | 19:35 |
| SteveA | which adds to startup time for no particular reason a lot of the time | 19:35 |
| SteveA | so any code which (transitively) imports inspect can be problematic. this includes 'copy'. | 19:35 |
| mgedmin | Theuni: generations, I think | 19:35 |
| Theuni | SteveA: how much is that in absolute numbers? | 19:35 |
| * SteveA was talking with lifeless (bzr developer) about this | 19:35 | |
| mgedmin | python -c 'import copy' takes 0.142s wall clock time on my laptop | 19:36 |
| mgedmin | time python -c 'import inspect' takes 0.202s | 19:36 |
| J1m | philiKON, I'm pretty sure he isn't talking about deferredimport | 19:37 |
| philiKON | i realized that too :) | 19:37 |
| Theuni | hmm. ~ 0.056 on two of my machines over here | 19:38 |
| mgedmin | there seems to be a need for a single, well-tested implementation of module = optional_import('pkg.subpkg.mod') | 19:38 |
| mgedmin | that swallows ImportErrors when pkg.subpkg.mod does not exist | 19:39 |
| mgedmin | but does not do so when pkg.subpkg.mod tries to import something else, which fails | 19:39 |
| Theuni | yup | 19:39 |
| SteveA | so, there is apparently a well-tested import thinggie in bzr | 19:39 |
| SteveA | lifeless is getting me a reference for it | 19:39 |
| philiKON | mgedmin, agreed. wehat would 'module' be when pkg.subpkg.mod doesnt' exist? | 19:39 |
| mgedmin | philiKON: None? | 19:39 |
| philiKON | sounds good to me | 19:39 |
| SteveA | this could be open sourced nicely (not GPL) and packaged separately if it will be useful to Zope 3 etc. | 19:40 |
| Theuni | that would be good | 19:40 |
| Theuni | i know of at least two places in zope 3 (somewhere deep core and generations) that make a dance for this right now | 19:40 |
| SteveA | bzr branch is here: http://bzr.arbash-meinel.com/branches/bzr/demandload/ | 19:41 |
| Theuni | one inspecting the stack frame of the exception, the other one aproxiguessing the str(exc) | 19:41 |
| mgedmin | I guess grepping for ImportError will uncover all those places | 19:41 |
| Theuni | likely | 19:41 |
| Theuni | hmm. anybody knows what the intended behaviours for fields operating on new objects is? | 19:44 |
| Theuni | If an object doesn't have the attribute corresponding to the field, will you get an attribute error, or take the default? | 19:45 |
| Theuni | I think i discovered attribute errors somewhere | 19:45 |
| philiKON | not sure what you're doing | 19:45 |
| * mgedmin would expect an attribute error | 19:45 | |
| philiKON | where would you get the attribute error exactly? | 19:46 |
| J1m | attribute error | 19:46 |
| J1m | default doesn't actually make sense imo :) | 19:47 |
| philiKON | hmm, you all seem to know what Theuni's doing already :) | 19:47 |
| J1m | No, I'm just answering his question at face value. | 19:47 |
| J1m | I'm not actually trying to help him. ;) | 19:47 |
| philiKON | perhaps he's talking about widgets :) | 19:47 |
| Theuni | I'm talking about fields :) | 19:48 |
| mgedmin | the way to use a field to get a value is field.get(obj), right? | 19:48 |
| Theuni | jupp | 19:48 |
| philiKON | ah | 19:48 |
| mgedmin | and if obj doesn't have the attribute, I would expect field.get to raise an error | 19:48 |
| philiKON | what does IField say? | 19:48 |
| SteveA | http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.bazaar-ng.general/13491/match=demandload | 19:48 |
| Theuni | """Get the value of the field for the given object."""$ | 19:48 |
| philiKON | hmmm | 19:49 |
| SteveA | about import speeds and demandload | 19:49 |
| Theuni | on the (broken) naming convention of get() in zope 3 i'd expect an attributeerror too, now that i'm thinking more about it | 19:49 |
| philiKON | broken? | 19:49 |
| Theuni | get/set/query | 19:49 |
| J1m | There are different kinds of fields. | 19:49 |
| J1m | Of coursem fields shouldn't have a get method. | 19:50 |
| Theuni | instead of python's notion of get | 19:50 |
| SteveA | python has a flexible notion of get | 19:50 |
| J1m | Python doesn't have one. | 19:50 |
| philiKON | dicts have one | 19:50 |
| J1m | Yeah, flexible. | 19:50 |
| Theuni | right, that's what i'm referring to | 19:50 |
| SteveA | although, I've found Zope's 'query' API confuses people | 19:50 |
| Theuni | people over here where at least annoyed by it | 19:51 |
| J1m | getattr vs d.get | 19:51 |
| Theuni | jupp | 19:51 |
| Theuni | in that way the z3 api is a bit unpythonic | 19:51 |
| SteveA | get and getdefault may be less confusing | 19:51 |
| J1m | hm | 19:51 |
| philiKON | yeah, come to think of it, it might've been better to swap 'get' and 'query' in the z3 apis... | 19:51 |
| philiKON | never thought about it, actually | 19:51 |
| Theuni | darn! we all didn't speak up because we thought you know what you're doing! | 19:52 |
| Theuni | ;) | 19:52 |
| mgedmin | the way recent bugfixes have been breaking people's software we might try to sneak that change into 3.3, and nobody would notice ;) | 19:52 |
| Theuni | lol | 19:52 |
| Theuni | is it *that* bad? | 19:53 |
| philiKON | yeah, let's do that | 19:53 |
| philiKON | i think only dmitry's premature datewidget-ru fix | 19:53 |
| Theuni | yupp | 19:53 |
| mgedmin | well, maybe not that bad, but I know someone complained about one of my bugfixes | 19:53 |
| mgedmin | and I know I complained about one of Theuni's bugfixes | 19:53 |
| philiKON | mgedmin, big deal, i get this all the time :) | 19:53 |
| Theuni | tell me his name and address ... i'll stop him complaining :) | 19:53 |
| Theuni | tip-toeing around those problems is reaaaally hard and in the end it still doesn't work | 19:54 |
| Theuni | but anyway, the get/set/query stuff is understood by most people by now and the need for a change is pretty small | 19:55 |
| Theuni | J1m: why did you say fields shouldn't have a 'set' method? | 19:55 |
| Theuni | s/set/get/ | 19:55 |
| SteveA | Theuni: get/query is understood by people who already understand it. | 19:55 |
| J1m | Because fields were meany to be specifications. | 19:55 |
| J1m | meant | 19:55 |
| philiKON | SteveA, let's make zope.component2 :) | 19:55 |
| J1m | We should do some sort of adaptation to get get and set. | 19:56 |
| Theuni | J1m: so you mean bound Fields would have to have those? | 19:56 |
| J1m | someday | 19:56 |
| SteveA | it is not so easily understood by those who don't yet understand it. And 'query' has caused semantic conflicts with a desire to make a zope3-compliant API and also support a "query" interface for querying over a collection of things. | 19:56 |
| philiKON | +1 to NoMoreSchemaBinding | 19:56 |
| J1m | Theuni, right | 19:56 |
| Theuni | SteveA: hmmmm | 19:56 |
| Theuni | k | 19:56 |
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| Theuni | but the behaviour of the current get method is as you expect: raising attributeerror, right? | 19:57 |
| J1m | philiKON, a few months ago I made peace with schema binding, but I don't remeber why. :) | 19:57 |
| philiKON | J1m, i remember that you did, but i don't remember either why you did :) | 19:57 |
| J1m | Yes, unless it is on an accessor. | 19:57 |
| Theuni | Ok, i think my question is answered, then ... | 19:58 |
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| * SteveA wonders what the schema binding issue is | 20:00 | |
| SteveA | http://www.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/NoMoreSchemaBinding | 20:01 |
| * Theuni discovers a small annoyance in the data flow between widgets and fields | 20:02 | |
| Theuni | To have the presentation issues totally separated between field and widget, i'd need to store the input value (getInputValue) in a slightly different form for future re-display than in the form that gets passed to field.set() later on | 20:04 |
| J1m | There is a need for storage of raw input. | 20:05 |
| J1m | This would be used, for example, to store incomplete and possibly incorrect input in sessions. | 20:05 |
| Theuni | exactly | 20:05 |
| Theuni | the second one is my use case | 20:05 |
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| J1m | Right, we know we need that. | 20:06 |
| Theuni | ok | 20:06 |
| Theuni | :) | 20:06 |
| J1m | It has been proposed for a looong time. | 20:06 |
| * mgedmin has this dream where authentication errors triggered on POST requests store the form data in a session and redirect back to the pre-filled form after a successful login | 20:06 | |
| mgedmin | (out of the box) | 20:06 |
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| Theuni | hmm | 20:07 |
| Theuni | didn't find a proposal immediately | 20:07 |
| Theuni | hmm. maybe cleanup of schema and widgets | 20:07 |
| Theuni | hm. nope. | 20:09 |
| mgedmin | SteveA: bzr get http://bzr.arbash-meinel.com/branches/bzr/demandload/ is incredibly slow here (stuck at 20% in fetch phase 0/4 after 30 minutes) | 20:09 |
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| SteveA | mgedmin: it will take a while. bzr get is still not optimised well, and you're downloading all of bzr :-( | 20:13 |
| SteveA | fortunately, there is interesting work afoot to optimize bzr a whole lot | 20:14 |
| BjornT | mgedmin: it'd probably be quicker to rsync down a copy of bzr and then use bzr pull --overwrite | 20:19 |
| BjornT | mgedmin: i guess this is the file you want, though: http://people.ubuntu.com/~bjorn/demandload.py | 20:20 |
| mgedmin | BjornT: thanks | 20:21 |
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| Theuni | wow | 20:31 |
| Theuni | zope 3 is more than 8 years old | 20:31 |
| Theuni | http://svn.zope.org/Zope3/trunk/?rev=3565&view=rev | 20:31 |
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| Theuni | and it's birthday was about a month ago | 20:32 |
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| benji | /me hums "Happy Birthday to You" | 20:38 |
| * benji wonders why /me wasn't escaped | 20:38 | |
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| philiKON | Theuni, *Zope* is more than 8 years old | 20:39 |
| Theuni | i know | 20:39 |
| philiKON | Theuni, the Zope2 CVS tree was copied over to Zope3 at some point | 20:39 |
| Theuni | i wanted to know about zope 3 specifically | 20:39 |
| philiKON | Zope 3 started in 2001, i believe. | 20:40 |
| philiKON | we both started with it in april 2002 :) | 20:40 |
| Theuni | yupp | 20:40 |
| Theuni | i know | 20:40 |
| Theuni | good bbq back then | 20:40 |
| philiKON | yup | 20:40 |
| philiKON | god save the applicationcontroller | 20:40 |
| * philiKON afk | 20:41 | |
| * mgedmin would like to hear opinions on http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev/658 | 20:41 | |
| Theuni | It's say that's a URL | 20:42 |
| mgedmin | good guess! | 20:42 |
| * Theuni wants a fish | 20:42 | |
| * mgedmin gives Theuni a book about fishing | 20:42 | |
| * Theuni eats the first picture in the book | 20:42 | |
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| * mgedmin would like to fix issue 658, but does not know which of the options to choose | 20:53 | |
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| flox | best practice is to use 'viewlets' for presentation components. right? | 23:04 |
| flox | with the <browser:viewlet> and <browser:viewletManager> directives | 23:05 |
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| benji | flox some people use them, some don't. I haven't yet | 23:07 |
| flox | i guess this is something similar to 'portlets' in Plone | 23:08 |
| flox | where u choose which boxes should appear on the left column, and right column in ur browser | 23:09 |
| rocky | flox: as a matter of fact there's a plip being planned for inclusion for plone 3.0 that would reimplement all the plone portlet stuff based on z3 viewlets | 23:10 |
| benji | I think viewlets are more than that | 23:10 |
| flox | yes, more generic... and more versatile | 23:10 |
| flox | i will try them, i think it can fit our project | 23:11 |
| * flox has found the '++skin++Debug' thing... to track errors | 23:15 | |
| * flox is reading fairy tales... inside ++apidoc++... | 23:18 | |
| srichter | I like viewlets a lot | 23:24 |
| srichter | :-) | 23:24 |
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| romanofski | yeah - thats pretty neat stuff | 23:25 |
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