IRC log of #zope3-dev for Thursday, 2006-07-13

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* mgedmin discovers that allows multiple -s parameters and is happy01:22
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grahamI have an object with an attribute which is a list of subobjects02:05
grahamI can render those subobjects in a page template02:05
grahamBut now I need to write a python view which modifies them before they go to the page template02:06
grahamI'm getting a ForbiddenAttribute when I try to access them02:06
grahamDo I need to do something different, or have I just made a mistake?02:07
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grahamI think I've just made a mistake....02:12
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romanofskimoin :)09:06
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grahamHow do I render an attribute in a pt replacing all the newlines with <br> tags?11:25
grahamI'm pretty sure I need to do the processing in the view class11:25
philiKONin an attribute?!?11:25
philiKONyah, 'tis best done in python11:26
grahamIs there a function for it?11:26
philiKONtext.replace('\n', '<br>') :)11:26
grahamOkay, is there then a function to escape everything else?11:27
philiKONhmm. cgi.escape?11:27
grahamOkay.  I wasn't sure whether that did enough.  Thanks11:28
SteveAin Launchpad, we wrote a something/fmt:nl_to_br for this11:42
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grahamAh, that's quite nice.  Thinking back, I remember you talking about extending TALES at EP2005!12:02
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harobedhi, where is source code in SVN ?15:48
harobedisn't exists ?15:48
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volvoxharobed: I think the examples are in svn://
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edarDoes anyone here know who wrote the untrusted python library?16:24
edaror is anyone here very familiar with it?16:24
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baldtrolwhen an @action is executed in a form.Form, does the view get re __init__'d once the post action is handled?16:31
SteveAit is a new web request16:35
SteveAentirely independent16:35
baldtrolok, i thought so16:35
baldtrolit seemed like it should, but i'm troubleshooting a bit of behavior i don't understand, and wanted to rule that out16:35
baldtrolthanks :)16:36
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edarHi Jim :)16:57
edarJ1m: are you there?16:58
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edarI need to know who wrote the untrusted python interpreter for zope316:59
J1mYes, I did.17:02
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edarI have some questions :)17:08
edarI'm trying to write a doctest quiz product, where I create a doctestquiz object and people can submit their solutions17:09
edarThe doctestquiz then, should test the solutions, however, I don't trust the solutions so I'm trying to use doctests and untrustedpython together17:10
SteveAedar: there's no good solution for someone putting an infinite loop in the doctest17:11
pcarduneyou could put time constraints on how long the code should take to run17:12
pcardunealthough i suppose that still isn't a *good* solution17:12
J1mYou never want to accept code from people you don't trust, at least to some degree.17:12
edarWell, let's say those people are students, and I do trust them to some extent17:13
SteveAif you run the code in a separate server instance... I mean like using xen or vmware17:13
J1mand assume you are willing to have your server seize up from time to time...17:13
SteveAthen you cna constrain the amount of time it can run for, and be somewhat assured it won't do bad things to the rest of your environment17:13
SteveAon some OSes you could use process limits / quotas / ulimit etc. to restrict the resources... but you open yourself to local exploits there a lot.  I wouldn't do it.17:14
edarhmmm however the tests are browser based, as in you click something to make the test happen17:14
edarif someone makes and infinite loop and clicks test ... the page will never refresh, or it shouldn't17:14
edarso the user will close the browser eventually, which will terminate the process17:14
SteveAI'd look more at having a way to run the code on the client side17:15
SteveAnot on the server side17:15
J1mclosing the browser will notterminate the process.17:15
edarI thought it would ... uh oh17:15
J1mThey could also enter expressions that use vast amounts of memory. puttng your server into swap death.17:15
J1mThat's a good idea -- running in the client17:16
SteveAyou can use ulimits to get limit the memory usage on your server process17:16
SteveAstill, there are all sorts of issues running this on the server17:16
edarHowever running it on the client means the user can do whatever he wants with the doctest17:17
edarthus he can make him/her self pass all the time17:17
SteveAyou said you trusted them!17:17
SteveAif you don't trust the students to mark themselves properly, why would you trust them not to crack your server?17:18
edarto some extent ^^17:18
edarHold on ....17:19
edarI need to get the instigator here, Jeff Elkner17:19
SteveAon an unrelated issue, someone (who was it...?) was talking about using distributed revision control systems to combat plagarism17:20
SteveAif you get your students to do their work using fine-grained checkins to a VCS, then you can inspect the flow of their work later17:20
pcardunethat's an interesting concept17:21
SteveAand see that there is a process of creation going on, rather than things just appearing from nowhere17:21
pcarduneas a student I would hate it, it's like a teacher breathing down your neck 24/7 and they will always know when you did everything at the last minute17:22
floxhello. i try to learn some good features of Zope3 for "presentation" components.17:23
floxwhat about 'zope.formlib'?17:23
floxis it a good start for 'input templates'?17:24
floxand 'zope.viewlet' for display templates?17:24
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edarthere is the real culprit >_<17:25
baldtrolflox: formlib is the place to go for designing any kind of form.17:26
jelknerj1m: hi jim17:26
baldtrolviewlet has a bit of a different use case.  it's for reusable views, not core to the representation of the current context, but desirable to be displayed there.17:26
jelknerseems like i've started a controversy17:27
jelkneri want doctest quiz17:27
jelknerthey tell me you are trying to talk them out of it17:27
floxbaldtrol: for 'input templates' we should use 'zope.formlib' (except for content components where we use ZCML <browser:editform>)17:31
baldtrolflox: that's my opinion, yessir.  form.Form, form.EditForm and page.Page (not formlib proper, but related) are, in my opinion, the best way to build presentation logic17:32
Theuniis there any elegant way to register a browser:page for multiple interfaces (but not *) without repeating the whole zcml-statement for every interface?17:33
baldtroltheuni: i don't know, but i hope someone says *yes* ;)17:33
Theunihmm. i can of course make a marker interface that i use as an interface that all the interfaces i want to associate extend17:33
Theunii can also make english sentences that are more complicated than they need to be17:33
baldtrolyou should rephrase everything to have yoda-syntax17:34
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Theunirephrasing everything you must17:35
Theuniyoda: very dark the other side is17:36
Theuniobi wan: shut up. eat your toast.17:36
floxbaldtrol: and 'zope.viewlet' is to display some re-usable views inside defined regions of the browser.17:38
baldtrolflox: that's what i've used it for in the past.  you can even embed formlib forms in viewlets, so long as you cleverly swap out the context for actions first.17:38
baldtrolcredit to srichter for giving me tips on how to do that too ;)17:39
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Theunihmm. J1m, btw: do you remember why "ISomething + Something" was choosen over "Something + SomethingImpl" as the standard for naming interfaces and classes?17:40
floxok, i'll concentrate on these: zope.formlib and zope.publisher (BrowserPage)17:41
floxthen i will look at zope.viewlet17:41
floxthks, baldtrol17:41
ignasTheuni: err i'd guess because SomethingImpl is more verbose and kind of ugly? and there is a usecase of "I have this lot of classes and want to make them Web enabled using Zope3"17:42
Theunii see the second reasoning17:42
J1mjelkner, I'm not trying very hard.  I just said they shouldn't do it. Actually, StevaA said they shouldn't do it and I agree.17:42
Theunia friend of mine who happens to know java was a bit surprised by our naming scheme17:42
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mexiKONTheuni, the question is whether you're interface centric or not17:43
Theunibecause the interface is supposed to specify a "something", not a "isomething" whereas the implementation is just a "detail" (as far as i understood that reasoning)17:43
mexiKONTheuni, also, lots of other systems tend to use the ISomething form for interfaces17:43
mexiKONTheuni, right.17:43
J1mTheuni, I never considered the second option, but if I did, I would reject it because I thin kit's ugly.17:43
J1mIFoo is pretty standard in some circles, and it stand out pretty well.17:43
mexiKONyeah, Impl is ugly17:43
mexiKONafaik, .NET uses IFoo17:44
TheunimexiKON:  for which flavor does the "whether you're interface centric" argument stand?17:44
mexiKONand (i could be wrong) some java projects do too17:44
* rocky adds his two cents17:44
rockyIFoo sucks imho, but its a necessary evil17:44
* Theuni takes 0.04 cents. someone has to cover up.17:44
Theunibzz. s/0.04/4/17:45
mexiKONTheuni, interface centric == Foo + SomeFoo;  impl centric:  Foo + IFoo17:45
rockyin java, there are language constructs for interfaces, so its never confusing whether you're dealing with an interface versus a class17:45
J1mI certainly don't like imbedding types in names as a rule. But I made an exception for interfaces.17:45
rockypython doesn't have that luxury17:45
J1mThere's nothing saying you have to follow this pattern.17:45
rockywell... here's the problem17:45
Theuniright. i was just wondering how we came up with it. i'm perfectly fine using it. :)17:46
J1mrocky, right, in Java, classes and interfaces aren't first-class objects.17:46
rockyif some people stop using the IFoo convention, it will get *very* confusing for other people looking at the code right now17:46
J1mThat's one way Java sucks. :)17:46
rockyits my recommendation that zope identify that IFoo is the "preferred" convention in order to keep things a little sane17:46
J1mIn Python Interfaces are first-class objects and classes are almost first-class objects.17:46
rockyi hate it.. but it will certainly reduce confusion17:46
Theuniapropos. I think I didn't say "I love Zope 3" today, yet.17:48
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* rocky is spending a little time lately trying to convince plone developers that formlib is ready :/17:50
mgedmin"classes are almost first-class objects"? why "almost"?17:51
grahamI think J1m meant interfaces are almost...17:54
mexiKONno, interfaces are first class objects17:55
grahamOkay, I'll shut up17:55
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mgedminwhat's second class about classes then?17:57
mexiKONi don't really know. i thought they were first class now17:58
mgedminso did I17:58
J1mclasses don't have their own attributes.17:59
J1mTheir attribute namespace is all mixed up with their instances'17:59
J1mSo, for example could couldn't write a picklable class.18:00
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J1mI don't have time atm for a deeper explanation. Ask SteveA. :)18:00
mexiKONJ1m, ah, right18:00
mexiKONno that already makes sense to me18:00
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mgedminSteveA is away for a stroll and a lunch18:02
harobedhi, what is the roadmap about Zope 3 web site ( ?18:03
mexiKONlooks nice. never heard about it before, though18:04
harobedthread is here :
mexiKONharobed, you should ask the relevant ZF committee, namely Martijn Faassen & co.18:06
d2mi think the design is used for the website18:09
rockyanyone here know if it'd be somehow possible to have the named template lookup be dependent on the current zodb context? right now it seems to only adapt the view18:35
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mexiKONrocky, that's how named templates work. they adapt the thing they're attached to18:45
rockyright, which are views18:46
rockyand of course we can't reliably expect looking up local utilities to work in zope2 without passing a real zodb context18:48
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mgedmincould someone explain the point of named templates to me?18:52
mgedminif I have to override a view class, then it is pretty simple for me to override the template attribute with a different ViewPageTemplateFile, should I desire so18:52
rockymgedmin: yep18:52
rockythats it18:52
mexiKONmgedmin, nobody says you *have* to use it :)18:53
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rockyits gonna be a life saver for plone18:53
mgedminbut some people use them, and I want to know what I'm missing18:54
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mgedmincan skins override named templates for views?18:54
rockynot afaik18:54
rockythere's nothing extraordinary about them18:54
rockythey're useful sometimes, sometimes they're not18:54
mgedmincan I get an example?18:56
mgedminwhen are they useful?18:56
rockymgedmin: well, for us with plone we can now override (the default template used for formlib) with our own that "fits" plone simply by providing our own named template18:57
mgedminwith zcml overrides?18:58
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rockymgedmin: for us no overrides are necessary since we can adapt zope2/five's BrowserView base class since thats used for all <browser:page> views18:59
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SteveAwhat's a named template?20:38
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roymI got the latest trunk, did a mkzopeinstance, and then bin/runzope.21:23
roymI get:21:23
roymfrom import main21:23
roymImportError: No module named app.twisted.main21:23
roymAm I missing something?21:23
mgedminI can reproduce that21:26
roymIt looks like disappeared from twisted/21:26
benjiroym: did you do a bare "make"?21:27
benjihmm, something bad is going on then21:27
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mgedminroym: bin/runzope in the instance has a strange SOFTWARE_HOME21:32
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*** dunny has joined #zope3-dev21:33 does 'import zope' and then looks into zope.__file__21:33
mgedminon my system this finds the 'zope' package that comes from the python-zope-interface Ubuntu package21:34
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roymmgedmin: regardless, the import points to a non-existent package ( Does that mean that the twisted guys have changed their dir structure? Or is supposed to be generated by the make?21:43
mgedminno, it means that mkzopeinstance found the wrong zope package21:44
pcarduneroym: I came across this problem a lot.  A quick fix is to just hack whichever script you want to use. (runzope, zopectl) and specify the software home there21:47
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roympcardune: thanks  - will do that until the dust settles on this.21:47
mgedminis there a collector issue for this?21:48
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roymCan someone point me to a safe version # that doesn't have this issue?21:51
roymI am getting another error:21:52
roymZopeXMLConfigurationError: File ".../etc/securitypolicy.zcml", line 11.221:52
roymConfigurationError: ('Unknown directive', u'', u'role')21:52
* mgedmin doesn't use mkzopeinstance21:52
roymmgedmin: what do you do instead?21:53
mgedminjust run directly in the checkout21:53
mgedminbut wait, didn't I see this conversation already21:53
mgedminhere on this channel?21:53
mgedminI think someone knowledgeable said mkzopeinstance wasn't supposed to work in a checkout21:54
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roymIt has worked until very recently for me.21:54
mgedminyou are supposed to run 'make install' (or python install) and then run mkzopeinstance from the installation dir21:54
mgedmindon't trust my memory21:55
roymthe "bare" make does exactly that..21:55
roymie: make install21:55
mgedminum, I don't think so21:56
mgedminit runs build_ext21:56
mgedmin... and install_data into .21:56
mgedminok, I should stop talking about things I do not understand ;)21:56
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roymIs there a way to undo the installation done by "/usr/bin/python install".22:25
roymIt put everything in my site-packages dir and I wanted it elsewhere.22:25
roymie: Zope-3.3.0b122:25
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benjiroym: there's a command for that, it's called "rm"  :)22:26
roymI appreciate the humor... :)22:26
roymhowever, its mixed up with a lot of debian stuff.22:26
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roymIn case someone else needs to do this.. here is a way to get a list22:36
roymof the files installed, and then maybe do a cleanout...22:36
roym/usr/bin/python install --root /usr/local/Zope3.tmp22:36
roymcd /usr/local/Zope3.tmp; find usr -type f22:36
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pcarduneJ1m: I see you moved zwiki at revision 69045 "Moving zwiki to separate project"  where is this separate project?23:37
J1mIt is now a top-level project23:38
J1mare you aware of why?23:38
pcardunenope, i'm not23:39
J1mIt has the same security hole as the one we just fixed in z223:39
pcarduneoh, alright then23:39
J1mI mentioned this on the zope3-dev list23:39
pcardune(I just subscribed) (again)23:40
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