IRC log of #zope3-dev for Saturday, 2006-10-28

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projekt01benji, ayt?15:09
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benjihere, projekt0115:22
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projekt01benji, is there a license problem with the z3c.javascript package?15:30
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benjinot that I know of specifically; there have been some discussions of what code can be put in the repo, but I don't recall anything about z3c.javascript15:32
projekt01benji, thanks, I just was reading this mails.15:33
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projekt01Note: there is some incredible work from Adam Groszer. He started to build a ZODB Browser as a wxPython application.17:05
projekt01You can find the code at:17:05
ignaserr, how tu run that thing ? :)17:12
ignasoh :) tried running wrong file17:12
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projekt01ignas, does it work?17:24
projekt01how did yo start it?17:25
projekt01Do you use a software/instance Zope3 setup?17:25
ignasmkdir z3c17:25
ignastouch z3c/__init__.py17:25
projekt01Ok, I guess this will work out of the box, right?17:25
ignasby this you mean ?17:26
projekt01Can you add a comment about to start the ZODB Browser like you did?17:26
projekt01This should mean with a make zope instance setup17:27
projekt01My sample describes a special setup if you use a trunk based setup with a additional src folder like used e.g. in eclipse17:27
ignaswell, i don't really use a mkzopeinstance setup ...17:28
projekt01but you use a software home and a instance home, right?17:29
ignasit's either schooltool (uses Zope3 as a set of libraries, not even touches
projekt01Ah, I see17:29
ignasor ivija, but ivija symlynks directly into zope3 directories i think17:29
ignasso i just used PYTHONPATH=.:schooltool/Zope3/src:schooltool/src/ python z3c/zodbbrowser/main.py17:30
projekt01On windows this doesn't work so easy ;-)17:31
ignason windows i'd write a bat file that sets environment variables the windows way i guess ...17:32
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projekt01What do you think about the ZODB Browser? It's cool isn't it?17:34
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ignaswell, Zope3 inspector is more powerful at the moment ...17:42
projekt01Doesn't help if your Zope isn't running ;-)17:43
ignasif your Zope is not running you can start it :)17:43
ignassame for the zodbbrowser ;)17:43
ignasit can't help you if it's not running17:44
projekt01And what about lost objects? The ZODB Browser shows you the database content and not the traversable content objects.17:44
ignaswhat do you mean by "the traversable content objects"17:45
projekt01introspector shows you only objects which are traversable by the API you implemented in your product.17:45
ignasare we both talking about Zope3 views that show you all interfaces implemented by some object, and all of it's attributes with links to apidoc ?17:45
ignasbtw - i have some objects that have attributes not defined by their interfaces, and zodbbrowser is not showing them (i accidentaly added name instead of first_name to objects)17:46
projekt01The ZODB Browser shows you tree view of the ZODB which is not always the same17:46
ignasand introspector is showing them ...17:46
projekt01Think about objects which you delete and they reference somthing you missed to cleanup17:47
ignasprojekt01: what examples could you tell that would differ ?17:47
projekt01lost objects which reference each other but nothing traversable17:48
ignasoh, and how do you access them in zodbbrowser ?17:48
projekt01Right now this isn't implemented in ZODB Browser, but could be done17:48
ignasand why?17:48
ignasas long as ZODB is concerned if you can't traverse into something - it does not exist17:48
projekt01no that's not true17:49
ignasyou don't delete anything from ZODB anyway17:49
ignascould you illustrate this with some close to real use case scenario ?17:49
ignasif it's not too difficult of course ...17:50
projekt01if two object reference each other and one of them is a container item and you delete this item the get never removed from the ZODB if you pack them because the carbage collector can't remove them17:50
ignasa sec17:50
projekt01It's really bad if your ZODB is more then 2 GB and you delete everthing. And after pack the ZODB the Data.fs is still 2 GB ;-)17:51
ignasyou have object A that references object B and B references A17:51
ignasyou delete A17:51
ignasfrom some container17:51
ignasbut you still can access object A through B17:52
ignasas B references A17:52
projekt01and if you delete B?17:52
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projekt01I mean and if you delete B from a container?17:52
projekt01So we have still a reference form A to B17:53
ignaswell, then both objects will have no way to access them from root17:53
ignasand will be packed i suppose17:53
projekt01the are lost and the pack method can't remove them because of it's reference!17:54
ignasthen it's a bug in ZODB, and zodbbrowser won'd help that much ...17:54
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ignasi mean ZODB should handle circular dependencies between objects in some way ...17:55
projekt01yes it does and the result is, not to delete them.17:56
ignasbtw, don't all containers have circular relationship with their content ?17:56
ignasso if i have a container A with items B,C,D17:56
ignasand i delete A17:56
ignasit stays17:56
ignaswhich is either a bug, or a feature ;)17:56
ignasand how will zodbbrowser help in such case? as one might have thousands of such objects17:56
ignassomeone should just fix the packing script to handle these things17:57
projekt01ISublocation does the cleanup via the obect remove event! I'm pretty shure not everybody knwos that and custom BTree implementation get not correct removed from the carbage collector17:57
projekt01e.g. = BTreeContainer()17:58
projekt01Such construct get never removed by itself17:58
ignas are you absolutely sure that Zope3 does not handle circular references?18:00
ignasas some emails written by jim as far as 2002 state quote: "In fact, circular references among persistent objects don't cause memory leaks."18:01
projekt01Yup, I have a project which I ad asite an remove them, after pack the ZODB, the DATa.fs is still the same size ;-(18:01
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ignaswell, the problem might be different18:01
ignasor you asked people that work on ZODB and they told you that ZODB can't handle circular references ?18:02
projekt01We discusse this also a the last Sprint which Adam shows his ZODB Browser. This was also the reason he startet to develop that tool.18:02
ignas - the docs even state: "You can just use normal Python references. In fact, you can even use circular references."18:03
projekt01I'm, absolutly shure, I'm running the second time into this problem.18:04
ignasif removing objects with circular references poses problems it might be a bug18:04
ignasthat should be fixed in zodb18:04
projekt01Yes, you can, btu you have to cleanup this references by yourself!18:04
projekt01No, why? That's the developers job.18:04
ignasnope, not really, if they state that they support circular references - they should support them18:05
ignaswhich means support them without 3rd party tools18:05
projekt01I hope we can implement a visualization for such "lost" objects into the ZODB Browser.18:05
ignasif it is the way you say - objects are leaked, then why visualise something that would be removed with an evolution script after the bug is fixed ?18:07
projekt01I'm not shure if such a circular reference cleanup is good, I think such a cleanup can only be done if you check all refences from each object recursive, and this can end in a neverending loop which has to stop at some time. If so, we never can guarantee to cleanup all references.18:08
ignassorry, but this problem has been solved a lot of times18:09
ignasall garbage collectors for languages like python, common-lisp, scheme, java, c#3333 etc.18:09
ignasdeal with such problems18:09
ignasand they do that pretty well i'd say18:09
ignasthe mark and sweep is an example of an algorithm that would solve it nicely ...18:10
projekt01I agree on that, I'm not the right person for asking why this happens, i just know that it happens.18:10
projekt01perhaps we have to ask this question to a ZODB guru18:11
ignasi just think that it's either a bug that should get reported and solved in ZODB18:11
ignasor you have refferences to objects that you are not aware of18:11
ignasso next time you encounter an unpackable ZODB, just put it in Zope collector or wherever they work on ZODB bugs18:12
projekt01you mean with a unpackable ZODB which get not smaller after running the pack method?18:13
ignaswith parameters you are passing to the pack method etc.18:14
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projekt01nothing special, just using the ZMI18:14
ignasi think there was an option, like keep this much of the history18:16
projekt01ignas, Ok, will do that, thanks for the hint.18:16
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regebroWhy can't I use testbrowser and layers at the same time without everything exploding is a fireworks display of weird errors?20:51
regebroWell, I guess it could have something to do with layers not making much sense to me in the first place... :)20:52
regebroYeah, that was layers that made it explode. I don't get the finer details of using layers. Too much magic.21:00
regebroNope, the error came back. It' s official, layers suck.21:02
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