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| baijum | Theuni, the table format is not correct here: http://wiki.zope.org/zope3/SpringCleaning07 | 10:15 |
|---|---|---|
| baijum | Theuni, just corrected | 10:17 |
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| timte | philiKON_: on page 122 it says that the add menu is displayed to the right, but it's to the left | 10:30 |
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| Theuni | baijum: i know. i'm still editing it ... | 10:59 |
| Theuni | give me some time to finish | 10:59 |
| romanofski | finish it off Theuni :) | 10:59 |
| * Theuni finishes romanofski off | 10:59 | |
| romanofski | heheh | 10:59 |
| * Theuni kicks the stupid wiki in the nuts | 11:00 | |
| projekt01 | Who is responsible for the wiki layout/UI? | 11:03 |
| baijum | projekt01, ask #zope-web | 11:03 |
| projekt01 | baijum, I mean the new one | 11:04 |
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| Theuni | still, zope-web should know | 11:10 |
| projekt01 | Ah, I see, that's not only a zope3 wiki UI | 11:12 |
| d2m | it's only uses with the zope3 wiki atm | 11:12 |
| d2m | s/uses/used | 11:13 |
| projekt01 | Ok, thanks | 11:13 |
| d2m | people, if you are about removing packages from core, could you consider removing basikskin and rotterdam from core too ? i think ZMI should be an installable application | 11:14 |
| d2m | it will take a bit to untangle ZMI from zope.app, but i think its worth doing it | 11:15 |
| d2m | and apidoc should live on its own too | 11:15 |
| projekt01 | +1, we should only ship a server management UI with the core | 11:16 |
| d2m | thats what i think, and it should not be used as the default skin | 11:17 |
| baijum | But this cleanup is not to reduce the size of zope core? only to remove unmaintained, unused and/or not even distributed packages | 11:18 |
| projekt01 | it's about security | 11:19 |
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| projekt01 | since we can call ++skin++MySkin/++skin++Rotterdam, we really need to remove the skin packages | 11:20 |
| d2m | another point: could we make the packages (loaded by package-includes) self-contained, that is could we make the packages load their own dependency files instead of relating on zope.* already loaded -- that would make it easier to create an app that installs/uninstalles packages TTW | 11:29 |
| d2m | or maybe there is a way to inspect packages to create a list of dependencies on the fly ? | 11:30 |
| projekt01 | utilities/finddeps.py does this job for you | 11:31 |
| d2m | ok, any idea, why the packages are not self-contained ? | 11:32 |
| projekt01 | that's a part of the concept | 11:32 |
| d2m | i'll test my idea with finddeps, thanks | 11:33 |
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| baijum | Theuni, What about adding one more column to the table to indicate whether a package belongs to Scenario 1 or Scenario 2. The column title can be 'Scenario' and values 1 or 2. | 11:37 |
| Theuni | thought about that too | 11:37 |
| Theuni | probably a good idea | 11:38 |
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| projekt01 | I guess it's a bad desing if a package registers to much, perhaps that's a reason to split a package into a base implementation and a implementation for what it does to much. | 11:39 |
| projekt01 | I don't think put more logic into the package management is a good idea. | 11:40 |
| d2m | maybe, but atm this approach leads to just include zope.app.* | 11:50 |
| d2m | the way you configure an instance to e.g. just include the apidoc package is, to remove everything from etc/package-includes, then start the instance and add step-by-step any package that is reported missing by the error traceback | 11:56 |
| d2m | what i think of is a zcml file that configures e.g. apidoc with all its dependencies and can be loaded on its own | 11:57 |
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| HammerToe | hi all :) | 13:59 |
| HammerToe | what do people do about log rotation in z3? AFAIK there isn't a pid file being generated? | 13:59 |
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| HammerToe | will it re-open logfiles on a USR2 signal? | 14:00 |
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| J1m | HammerToe, I'm 96% sire that zdaemon supports log rotation. | 14:03 |
| J1m | Even though there is no pid file, zdaemon knows the pid and can send the process the appropriate command on request. | 14:04 |
| J1m | Also, I'm pretty sure that zdaemon can be configured to produce a pid file. | 14:04 |
| J1m | zdaemon would be a very cool tool if it was adequately documented and packaged. | 14:05 |
| J1m | sigh -- so much to do, so little time -- whimper | 14:05 |
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| HammerTo_ | fell off | 14:21 |
| HammerTo_ | jim: ok sounds good..... is zdaemon still used in Zope3? I dunno how all the parts fit together anymore with twisted | 14:22 |
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| rocky | faassen: ping | 20:52 |
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| faassen | rocky: pong | 21:04 |
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| rocky | faassen: i'm about to get into building my first buildout (zope2) and was wondering if you might not have some url pointers for getting started :) | 21:06 |
| rocky | or at the very minimum know of someone else on this irc channel who i could harass instead :) | 21:07 |
| faassen | rocky: I haven't done any zope 2 buildouts.. | 21:13 |
| faassen | rocky: I mean, the getting started bit would be 'be sure to get a good buildout.cfg', put it in a directory, run bootstrap.py, do bin/buildout | 21:14 |
| faassen | rocky: if your buildout.cfg refers to recipes and so on that know about Zope 2, then you're set. | 21:14 |
| rocky | well i'm looking at reusing what the topp folks (openplans.net) did ... they have topp.buildout with a series of zope2 recipes ... | 21:16 |
| rocky | i'm also trying to worm out of them why the abandoned that particular project | 21:16 |
| rocky | but to no avail | 21:16 |
| faassen | yeah, that would be interesting to find out. | 21:17 |
| faassen | it'd be great to have a zope 2 buildout. | 21:17 |
| faassen | much more easy to start maintaining python-libraries as zope 2 dependencies then. | 21:17 |
| rocky | faassen: if i start working on a set of recipes like this, can you think of a good svn repo to host them at? i seem to have commit privileges in most of the good ones :) | 21:19 |
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| faassen | rocky: I think svn.zope.org would be a good place | 21:20 |
| faassen | rocky: you also should talk to Theuni about this. | 21:20 |
| rocky | oh? | 21:20 |
| faassen | rocky: gocept did some work on an improved zope 3 recipe. | 21:20 |
| rocky | oh | 21:20 |
| faassen | rocky: some of the basic design might carry over. | 21:20 |
| faassen | rocky: for generation of an instance | 21:20 |
| rocky | right | 21:20 |
| rocky | hm... what sort of toplevel namespace package should i be looking at? | 21:20 |
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| rocky | (look at using i mean) | 21:21 |
| faassen | rocky: z3c.recipe, I guess, though I think z3c is a sucky namespace. :) | 21:21 |
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| rocky | lol | 21:21 |
| faassen | rocky: you could call it 'zorg', and then I'm not the one who starts with that. :) | 21:21 |
| rocky | right, so i guess it doesn't matter about zope2 and zope3 recipes living under the same umbrella | 21:21 |
| rocky | haha | 21:21 |
| faassen | rocky: no, I don't think so. the Zope 3 one is called zc.somethingorotehr..I think the gocept work lives on a branch, not sure, haven't checked it out yet. | 21:21 |
| faassen | zc.recipe.somethingorother. | 21:21 |
| rocky | gotcha | 21:22 |
| faassen | so zorg.recipe.zope2instance or something like that. | 21:22 |
| faassen | unless we as a community decide 'zc' stands for 'zope community' and start using tha tnamespace. ;) | 21:22 |
| J1m | no, please don't. | 21:23 |
| J1m | It wouldn't be much of a namespace then. | 21:23 |
| rocky | what i'm looking at right now are two recipes ... one for checking out zope2 and another for creating a zope2 instance based on that | 21:24 |
| Theuni | rofl | 21:26 |
| rocky | hm? | 21:27 |
| Theuni | I guess that was the most evil but entertaining idea i heard in a long time (the one about the zc namespace) | 21:27 |
| rocky | oh, haha | 21:27 |
| faassen | Theuni: I can't claim credit for it, I forget who on the list said that. :) | 21:28 |
| rocky | faassen: thinking about it... z3c represents zope3community doesn't it? kind of goes against the fact i'm doing zope2 recipes ;) | 21:28 |
| faassen | rocky: true. | 21:28 |
| faassen | rocky: so call it 'zorg'. good reason! | 21:28 |
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| faassen | rocky: you can break in zorg. 'zope organisation' :) | 21:28 |
| * rocky waits for Theuni or J1m to chime in with non-controversial suggestions :) | 21:29 | |
| Theuni | way too boring | 21:29 |
| faassen | zorg is non-controversial. :) | 21:29 |
| faassen | see, Theuni already calls it boring, so that's really non controversial. anything boring isn't controversial. :) | 21:30 |
| rocky | haha | 21:30 |
| Theuni | rocky: if you want to look at our work on the zope3 recipe, check here: http://svn.zope.org/zc.recipe.zope3instance/branches/gocept-zconf-slug-dev/ | 21:30 |
| rocky | Theuni: cool, thanks | 21:32 |
| rocky | i should just create the sz.* namespace on svn.zope.org and be done with it :) | 21:32 |
| Theuni | what is sz? | 21:32 |
| rocky | ServerZen (my company) :) | 21:32 |
| Theuni | ah | 21:32 |
| Theuni | i'm kind of annoyed with the name gocept because it's pretty long for a namespace name, but doesn't abbreviate very well. | 21:33 |
| rocky | haha | 21:34 |
| Theuni | hmm. looks like deleting the server.pem and ssh key files doesn't break any tests. | 21:34 |
| rocky | i could always use ca.nl as the namespace package ... standing for "Canada / Newfoundland" ;) | 21:34 |
| J1m | BTW, I'm thinking of moving from zc.recipe.foo to zc.foorecipe to reduce nesting. | 21:35 |
| J1m | fwiw | 21:35 |
| rocky | J1m: yeah multi-level namespace packages are kinda sucky ... i was just poking fun | 21:36 |
| rocky | J1m: so any suggestion for a toplevle namespace for me to use for adding zope2 recipes? | 21:38 |
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| rocky | on svn.zope.org | 21:38 |
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| J1m | rocky? | 21:39 |
| J1m | plone? | 21:39 |
| faassen | heh. | 21:39 |
| faassen | J1m: you don't know the history of THAT one, do you? :) | 21:39 |
| faassen | J1m: or do you? | 21:39 |
| J1m | no | 21:39 |
| rocky | haha | 21:39 |
| faassen | J1m: at last year's snow sprint Stephan Richter had the temerity to start a plone package | 21:39 |
| faassen | J1m: and then all hell broke loose at the snow sprint. | 21:39 |
| faassen | J1m: that's at least what I've heard. :) | 21:39 |
| J1m | lol | 21:40 |
| faassen | zorg.z2instancerecipe sounds sucky, I prefer zorg.recipe.z2instance :) | 21:41 |
| rocky | i was there, i was srichter's co-conspirator ;) | 21:41 |
| faassen | rocky: yeah, I had associations with you there. | 21:41 |
| J1m | I don't see zorg as an improvement over zope. | 21:42 |
| rocky | faassen: wouldn't just zorg.recipe.zope2 be better? since it's not just about creating an instance but also downloading zope, etc | 21:42 |
| J1m | I don't know who the guardian of the zope namespace is these days. | 21:42 |
| faassen | well, zope 3 has an instance and a software recipe. | 21:42 |
| faassen | one would think you would want that for zope 2. | 21:42 |
| rocky | faassen: right, i would | 21:42 |
| faassen | one that sets up the software stuff, and then a recipe to make insatnces out of that. similarly the ZODB has a separate (very simple recipe) | 21:42 |
| rocky | yep | 21:42 |
| J1m | btw, I'm working on a new-improved zope3 instance recipe. :) | 21:43 |
| J1m | I'm talking a slightly different approach. | 21:43 |
| J1m | I'm creating an app sercipe that sets up software that is common to all instances. | 21:44 |
| faassen | J1m: new-improved beyond Theuni's new improved? Soon we'll have any many different zope 3 recipes as we have version control systems. :) | 21:45 |
| rocky | haha | 21:46 |
| J1m | This creates zopectl, runzope, and debugzope that require a config file to be passed. | 21:46 |
| J1m | Then an instance recipe that builds what this produces. | 21:46 |
| Theuni | I'd hope that J1m's new-improved version allows us to handle our uses cases too. Our branch is still marked as experimental. | 21:46 |
| J1m | so that there is less duplication between instances. | 21:46 |
| J1m | My new one is experimental and very geared towars *our* needs for now. | 21:47 |
| J1m | I'm not sure what the best way to do this is. | 21:47 |
| J1m | I do think there is a lot of crust in the way we did this in the past though. | 21:47 |
| Theuni | Then we might want to play some darwinism ;) | 21:47 |
| J1m | There may not end up being one solution that fits all situations. | 21:48 |
| Theuni | Right. Which puts even more interest on the question how an eggified Zope is distributed and how buildout relates to this. | 21:49 |
| faassen | Theuni: you mean the top-level eggified zope, right? I mean, the library bits will be eggs. :) | 21:52 |
| Theuni | right | 21:52 |
| faassen | Theuni: I would imagine a common distribution would be a 'primed' buildout. a buildout with all the eggs already there in a tarball. of course the question would be what to place in buildout.cfg :) | 21:52 |
| Theuni | Hmm. | 21:53 |
| Theuni | So that for packaging someone does a kind of pre-install stage to get all eggs downloaded etc. so someone else can just run install without network connection, right? | 21:53 |
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| Theuni | That feels kinda wrong. | 21:55 |
| faassen | Theuni: I think it's so someone can install the stuff without having to download a lot of stuff. we may skip that step; turbogears seems to do without that step just fine, though the amount of eggs we'll have is a bit beyond what they have. | 21:56 |
| faassen | Theuni: by the way, I have turbogears working in a buildout. :) | 21:56 |
| rocky | faassen: getting back to the earlier discussion, it looks like i might go with zorg.recipe.zope2instance and zorg.recipe.zope2checkout | 21:56 |
| faassen | 23 eggs for turbogears in this installation. | 21:57 |
| rocky | if there are no arguments from folks here | 21:57 |
| faassen | rocky: okay, looks good. :) | 21:57 |
| Theuni | incl. third party dependencies or something? | 21:57 |
| faassen | Theuni: turbogears is mostly third party dependencies. :) | 21:57 |
| Theuni | heh | 21:57 |
| faassen | that's nose and paste and pyprotocols and kid and formencode and sqlobject etc | 21:57 |
| faassen | and CherryPy | 21:57 |
| rocky | faassen: replace "turbogears is" with "zope should be" in your previous comment :) | 21:58 |
| faassen | rocky: we have a loong way to go. | 21:58 |
| rocky | faassen: politically and technically :) | 21:58 |
| faassen | rocky: I have been looking at how to make grok do with as few a set of dependencies as possible. | 21:58 |
| faassen | rocky: too much still right now. | 21:58 |
| rocky | indeed | 21:58 |
| rocky | faassen: i will probably look at apply Grok to zope2 in the near future btw | 21:59 |
| rocky | i am following the mailing list discussions | 21:59 |
| faassen | rocky: thanks to my auto-grokker work that should be easier. :) | 21:59 |
| faassen | rocky: it would entail replacing (or even refactoring and then subclassing!) the existing grokkers. | 21:59 |
| rocky | hmm | 21:59 |
| faassen | rocky: but that would be major cool. | 21:59 |
| faassen | rocky: the grokkers for the various grokked entities are now classes themselves subclassing from Grokker | 22:00 |
| rocky | faassen: but i warn you, any effort i do to make Grok run on zope2 would be to make it as zope3-like as possible... i won't be as conservative as the Five project :) | 22:00 |
| faassen | rocky: so it should be relatively easy to refactor the various grokkers so you can subclass them for Zope 2 purposes. | 22:00 |
| rocky | are you looking at adopting something like genshi as the standard templating language for grok ? | 22:00 |
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| faassen | rocky: okay, that warning made no sense. the whole point of the Five project is to be as Zope 3 as possible, it just was within the constraints of the time. | 22:01 |
| rocky | hahaha | 22:01 |
| faassen | rocky: I'm looking at refactoring the template registry stuff for grok at some point so it can deal with other template languages, and trying it out with genshi. | 22:01 |
| rocky | faassen: the fact that i can't use a whole bunch of zope3 widgets inside view components on zope2+five is due to the fact that the request object is just to un-zope3'ish ... i would have fixed that for long ago if someone would have left me :) | 22:02 |
| rocky | *left | 22:02 |
| rocky | *let | 22:02 |
| rocky | lol | 22:02 |
| faassen | rocky: anyway, *if* you'll run into the need to make custom Zope 2 behavior, it'ls a lot easier with grokkers. *and* it's easier to reuse as much as the core grok as possible if you refactor the core grok classes a little, which you're welcome to. | 22:02 |
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| faassen | rocky: then you would only need to subclass and add in a little bit of Five magic. | 22:03 |
| rocky | k, will keep that in mind | 22:03 |
| faassen | rocky: did someone stop you from making it a zope 3 request? :) | 22:03 |
| faassen | rocky: anyway, the philosophy of Five was to be as unambitious as possible for an ambitious project like that. | 22:03 |
| faassen | rocky: so I punted on lots of stuff early on. :) | 22:04 |
| rocky | hehe | 22:04 |
| faassen | rocky: if I'd been more ambitious it wouldn't exist. :) | 22:04 |
| rocky | indeed :) | 22:04 |
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| Theuni | J1m: Do you remember your motivation why there are so many aliases in formlib (Field=FormField,EditForm=PageEditForm,...) and the distinction between the (XY)FormBase classes and many subclasses that seem unused and only add an interface? | 22:14 |
| mgedmin | and many different setUp*Widgets functions? | 22:15 |
| Theuni | i'm not that far yet ;) | 22:16 |
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| mgedmin | philiKON: love your ezmerge.py | 22:31 |
| mgedmin | I have a few enhancements, interested in a patch? | 22:32 |
| sureshvv | faassen... have some of the early Five docs/tutorials gone? | 22:32 |
| faassen | sureshvv: I don't know, it's possible some got lost somehow. | 22:39 |
| sureshvv | faassen... thats bad... could it still be in the code-speak svn? | 22:40 |
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| faassen | sureshvv: quite possibly, though when we carried Five itself over to svn.zope.org we didn't leave anything current out | 22:46 |
| sureshvv | faassen... there was a section on views, particularly using resources with ++resources_folder++... this is gone now | 22:47 |
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