IRC log of #zope3-dev for Wednesday, 2006-12-20

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baijumTheuni, the table format is not correct here:
baijumTheuni, just corrected10:17
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timtephiliKON_: on page 122 it says that the add menu is displayed to the right, but it's to the left10:30
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Theunibaijum: i know. i'm still editing it ...10:59
Theunigive me some time to finish10:59
romanofskifinish it off Theuni :)10:59
* Theuni finishes romanofski off10:59
* Theuni kicks the stupid wiki in the nuts11:00
projekt01Who is responsible for the wiki layout/UI?11:03
baijumprojekt01, ask #zope-web11:03
projekt01baijum, I mean the new one11:04
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Theunistill, zope-web should know11:10
projekt01Ah, I see, that's not only a zope3 wiki UI11:12
d2mit's only uses with the zope3 wiki atm11:12
projekt01Ok, thanks11:13
d2mpeople, if you are about removing packages from core, could you consider removing basikskin and rotterdam from core too ? i think ZMI should be an installable application11:14
d2mit will take a bit to untangle ZMI from, but i think its worth doing it11:15
d2mand apidoc should live on its own too11:15
projekt01+1, we should only ship a server management UI with the core11:16
d2mthats what i think, and it should not be used as the default skin11:17
baijumBut this cleanup is not to reduce the size of zope core? only to remove unmaintained, unused and/or not even distributed packages11:18
projekt01it's about security11:19
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projekt01since we can call ++skin++MySkin/++skin++Rotterdam, we really need to remove the skin packages11:20
d2manother point: could we make the packages (loaded by package-includes) self-contained, that is could we make the packages load their own dependency files instead of relating on zope.* already loaded -- that would make it easier to create an app that installs/uninstalles packages TTW11:29
d2mor maybe there is a way to inspect packages to create a list of dependencies on the fly ?11:30
projekt01utilities/ does this job for you11:31
d2mok, any idea, why the packages are not self-contained ?11:32
projekt01that's a part of the concept11:32
d2mi'll test my idea with finddeps, thanks11:33
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baijumTheuni, What about adding one more column to the table to indicate whether a package belongs to Scenario 1 or Scenario 2.  The column title can be 'Scenario' and values 1 or 2.11:37
Theunithought about that too11:37
Theuniprobably a good idea11:38
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projekt01I guess it's a bad desing if a package registers to much, perhaps that's a reason to split a package into a base implementation and a implementation for what it does to much.11:39
projekt01I don't think put more logic into the package management is a good idea.11:40
d2mmaybe, but atm this approach leads to just include*11:50
d2mthe way you configure an instance to e.g. just include the apidoc package is, to remove everything from etc/package-includes, then start the instance and add step-by-step any package that is reported missing by the error traceback11:56
d2mwhat i think of is a zcml file that configures e.g. apidoc with all its dependencies and can be loaded on its own11:57
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HammerToehi all :)13:59
HammerToewhat do people do about log rotation in z3?  AFAIK there isn't a pid file being generated?13:59
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HammerToewill it re-open logfiles on a USR2 signal?14:00
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J1mHammerToe, I'm 96% sire that zdaemon supports log rotation.14:03
J1mEven though there is no pid file, zdaemon knows the pid and can send the process the appropriate command on request.14:04
J1mAlso, I'm pretty sure that zdaemon can be configured to produce a pid file.14:04
J1mzdaemon would be a very cool tool if it was adequately documented and packaged.14:05
J1msigh -- so much to do, so little time -- whimper14:05
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HammerTo_fell off14:21
HammerTo_jim: ok sounds good..... is zdaemon still used in Zope3? I dunno how all the parts fit together anymore with twisted14:22
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rockyfaassen: ping20:52
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faassenrocky: pong21:04
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rockyfaassen: i'm about to get into building my first buildout (zope2) and was wondering if you might not have some url pointers for getting started :)21:06
rockyor at the very minimum know of someone else on this irc channel who i could harass instead :)21:07
faassenrocky: I haven't done any zope 2 buildouts..21:13
faassenrocky: I mean, the getting started bit would be 'be sure to get a good buildout.cfg', put it in a directory, run, do bin/buildout21:14
faassenrocky: if your buildout.cfg refers to recipes and so on that know about Zope 2, then you're set.21:14
rockywell i'm looking at reusing what the topp folks ( did ... they have topp.buildout with a series of zope2 recipes ...21:16
rockyi'm also trying to worm out of them why the abandoned that particular project21:16
rockybut to no avail21:16
faassenyeah, that would be interesting to find out.21:17
faassenit'd be great to have a zope 2 buildout.21:17
faassenmuch more easy to start maintaining python-libraries as zope 2 dependencies then.21:17
rockyfaassen: if i start working on a set of recipes like this, can you think of a good svn repo to host them at? i seem to have commit privileges in most of the good ones :)21:19
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faassenrocky: I think would be a good place21:20
faassenrocky: you also should talk to Theuni about this.21:20
faassenrocky: gocept did some work on an improved zope 3 recipe.21:20
faassenrocky: some of the basic design might carry over.21:20
faassenrocky: for generation of an instance21:20
rockyhm... what sort of toplevel namespace package should i be looking at?21:20
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rocky(look at using i mean)21:21
faassenrocky: z3c.recipe, I guess, though I think z3c is a sucky namespace. :)21:21
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faassenrocky: you could call it 'zorg', and then I'm not the one who starts with that. :)21:21
rockyright, so i guess it doesn't matter about zope2 and zope3 recipes living under the same umbrella21:21
faassenrocky: no, I don't think so. the Zope 3 one is called zc.somethingorotehr..I think the gocept work lives on a branch, not sure, haven't checked it out yet.21:21
faassenso zorg.recipe.zope2instance or something like that.21:22
faassenunless we as a community decide 'zc' stands for 'zope community' and start using tha tnamespace. ;)21:22
J1mno, please don't.21:23
J1mIt wouldn't be much of a namespace then.21:23
rockywhat i'm looking at right now are two recipes ... one for checking out zope2 and another for creating a zope2 instance based on that21:24
TheuniI guess that was the most evil but entertaining idea i heard in a long time (the one about the zc namespace)21:27
rockyoh, haha21:27
faassenTheuni: I can't claim credit for it, I forget who on the list said that. :)21:28
rockyfaassen: thinking about it... z3c represents zope3community doesn't it? kind of goes against the fact i'm doing zope2 recipes ;)21:28
faassenrocky: true.21:28
faassenrocky: so call it 'zorg'. good reason!21:28
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faassenrocky: you can break in zorg. 'zope organisation' :)21:28
* rocky waits for Theuni or J1m to chime in with non-controversial suggestions :)21:29
Theuniway too boring21:29
faassenzorg is non-controversial. :)21:29
faassensee, Theuni already calls it boring, so that's really non controversial. anything boring isn't controversial. :)21:30
Theunirocky: if you want to look at our work on the zope3 recipe, check here:
rockyTheuni: cool, thanks21:32
rockyi should just create the sz.* namespace on and be done with it :)21:32
Theuniwhat is sz?21:32
rockyServerZen (my company)  :)21:32
Theunii'm kind of annoyed with the name gocept because it's pretty long for a namespace name, but doesn't abbreviate very well.21:33
Theunihmm. looks like deleting the server.pem and ssh key files doesn't break any tests.21:34
rockyi could always use as the namespace package ... standing for "Canada / Newfoundland"  ;)21:34
J1mBTW, I'm thinking of moving from to zc.foorecipe to reduce nesting.21:35
rockyJ1m: yeah multi-level namespace packages are kinda sucky ... i was just poking fun21:36
rockyJ1m: so any suggestion for a toplevle namespace for me to use for adding zope2 recipes?21:38
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rockyon svn.zope.org21:38
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faassenJ1m: you don't know the history of THAT one, do you? :)21:39
faassenJ1m: or do you?21:39
faassenJ1m: at last year's snow sprint Stephan Richter had the temerity to start a plone package21:39
faassenJ1m: and then all hell broke loose at the snow sprint.21:39
faassenJ1m: that's at least what I've heard. :)21:39
faassenzorg.z2instancerecipe sounds sucky, I prefer zorg.recipe.z2instance :)21:41
rockyi was there, i was srichter's co-conspirator ;)21:41
faassenrocky: yeah, I had associations with you there.21:41
J1mI don't see zorg as an improvement over zope.21:42
rockyfaassen: wouldn't just zorg.recipe.zope2 be better? since it's not just about creating an instance but also downloading zope, etc21:42
J1mI don't know who the guardian of the zope namespace is these days.21:42
faassenwell, zope 3 has an instance and a software recipe.21:42
faassenone would think you would want that for zope 2.21:42
rockyfaassen: right, i would21:42
faassenone that sets up the software stuff, and then a recipe to make insatnces out of that. similarly the ZODB has a separate (very simple recipe)21:42
J1mbtw, I'm working on a new-improved zope3 instance recipe. :)21:43
J1mI'm talking a slightly different approach.21:43
J1mI'm creating an app sercipe that sets up software that is common to all instances.21:44
faassenJ1m: new-improved beyond Theuni's new improved? Soon we'll have any many different zope 3 recipes as we have version control systems. :)21:45
J1mThis creates zopectl, runzope, and debugzope that require a config file to be passed.21:46
J1mThen an instance recipe that builds what this produces.21:46
TheuniI'd hope that J1m's new-improved version allows us to handle our uses cases too. Our branch is still marked as experimental.21:46
J1mso that there is less duplication between instances.21:46
J1mMy new one is experimental and very geared towars *our* needs for now.21:47
J1mI'm not sure what the best way to do this is.21:47
J1mI do think there is a lot of crust in the way we did this in the past though.21:47
TheuniThen we might want to play some darwinism ;)21:47
J1mThere may not end up being one solution that fits all situations.21:48
TheuniRight. Which puts even more interest on the question how an eggified Zope is distributed and how buildout relates to this.21:49
faassenTheuni: you mean the top-level eggified zope, right? I mean, the library bits will be eggs. :)21:52
faassenTheuni: I would imagine a common distribution would be a 'primed' buildout. a buildout with all the eggs already there in a tarball. of course the question would be what to place in buildout.cfg :)21:52
TheuniSo that for packaging someone does a kind of pre-install stage to get all eggs downloaded etc. so someone else can just run install without network connection, right?21:53
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TheuniThat feels kinda wrong.21:55
faassenTheuni: I think it's so someone can install the stuff without having to download a lot of stuff. we may skip that step; turbogears seems to do without that step just fine, though the amount of eggs we'll have is a bit beyond what they have.21:56
faassenTheuni: by the way, I have turbogears working in a buildout. :)21:56
rockyfaassen: getting back to the earlier discussion, it looks like i might go with zorg.recipe.zope2instance and zorg.recipe.zope2checkout21:56
faassen23 eggs for turbogears in this installation.21:57
rockyif there are no arguments from folks here21:57
faassenrocky: okay, looks good. :)21:57
Theuniincl. third party dependencies or something?21:57
faassenTheuni: turbogears is mostly third party dependencies. :)21:57
faassenthat's nose and paste and pyprotocols and kid and formencode and sqlobject etc21:57
faassenand CherryPy21:57
rockyfaassen: replace "turbogears is" with "zope should be" in your previous comment :)21:58
faassenrocky: we have a loong way to go.21:58
rockyfaassen: politically and technically :)21:58
faassenrocky: I have been looking at how to make grok do with as few a set of dependencies as possible.21:58
faassenrocky: too much still right now.21:58
rockyfaassen: i will probably look at apply Grok to zope2 in the near future btw21:59
rockyi am following the mailing list discussions21:59
faassenrocky: thanks to my auto-grokker work that should be easier. :)21:59
faassenrocky: it would entail replacing (or even refactoring and then subclassing!) the existing grokkers.21:59
faassenrocky: but that would be major cool.21:59
faassenrocky: the grokkers for the various grokked entities are now classes themselves subclassing from Grokker22:00
rockyfaassen: but i warn you, any effort i do to make Grok run on zope2 would be to make it as zope3-like as possible... i won't be as conservative as the Five project :)22:00
faassenrocky: so it should be relatively easy to refactor the various grokkers so you can subclass them for Zope 2 purposes.22:00
rockyare you looking at adopting something like genshi as the standard templating language for grok ?22:00
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faassenrocky: okay, that warning made no sense. the whole point of the Five project is to be as Zope 3 as possible, it just was within the constraints of the time.22:01
faassenrocky: I'm looking at refactoring the template registry stuff for grok at some point so it can deal with other template languages, and trying it out with genshi.22:01
rockyfaassen: the fact that i can't use a whole bunch of zope3 widgets inside view components on zope2+five is due to the fact that the request object is just to un-zope3'ish ... i would have fixed that for long ago if someone would have left me :)22:02
faassenrocky: anyway, *if* you'll run into the need to make custom Zope 2 behavior, it'ls a lot easier with grokkers. *and* it's easier to reuse as much as the core grok as possible if you refactor the core grok classes a little, which you're welcome to.22:02
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faassenrocky: then you would only need to subclass and add in a little bit of Five magic.22:03
rockyk, will keep that in mind22:03
faassenrocky: did someone stop you from making it a zope 3 request? :)22:03
faassenrocky: anyway, the philosophy of Five was to be as unambitious as possible for an ambitious project like that.22:03
faassenrocky: so I punted on lots of stuff early on. :)22:04
faassenrocky: if I'd been more ambitious it wouldn't exist. :)22:04
rockyindeed :)22:04
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TheuniJ1m: Do you remember your motivation why there are so many aliases in formlib (Field=FormField,EditForm=PageEditForm,...) and the distinction between the (XY)FormBase classes and many subclasses that seem unused and only add an interface?22:14
mgedminand many different setUp*Widgets functions?22:15
Theunii'm not that far yet ;)22:16
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mgedminphiliKON: love your ezmerge.py22:31
mgedminI have a few enhancements, interested in a patch?22:32
sureshvvfaassen... have some of the early Five docs/tutorials gone?22:32
faassensureshvv: I don't know, it's possible some got lost somehow.22:39
sureshvvfaassen... thats bad... could it still be in the code-speak svn?22:40
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faassensureshvv: quite possibly, though when we carried Five itself over to we didn't leave anything current out22:46
sureshvvfaassen... there was a section on views, particularly using resources with ++resources_folder++... this is gone now22:47
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