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| ksmith99 | zenwryly: schema.Choice(title=u'Bands', vocabulary="List Bands") | 00:20 |
|---|---|---|
| ksmith99 | zenwryly: see this link http://wiki.zope.org/zope3/VocabularyFields | 00:25 |
| zenwryly | ksmith99: thanks | 00:27 |
| ksmith99 | np | 00:30 |
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| WebMaven | jukart: Hi | 00:36 |
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| zenwryly | is direct access to the __parent__ attribute the proper way to work with a contained object's parent? | 01:42 |
| philiKON | yeah | 01:47 |
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| zenwryly | philiKON: thanks | 01:48 |
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| zenwryly | Is there a way to get a list of interfaces provided by an object that subclass a given interface? | 03:39 |
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| Bhaskar | what is the mechanism of character rendering by zope? | 08:48 |
| srichter | what do you mean? | 08:48 |
| srichter | Zope is a server application and does not need to render character | 08:48 |
| srichter | characters | 08:48 |
| Bhaskar | srichter, i know ,the issue is supporting UTF | 08:51 |
| srichter | well, Zope 3 internally uses unicode | 08:51 |
| srichter | by default all content is converted to UTF-8 | 08:51 |
| Bhaskar | srichter, well | 08:53 |
| srichter | (there is no "well" ;-), it was the first feature publically implemented in Zope 3; I was there, trust me) | 08:54 |
| srichter | Zope 3 has been translated into Russian, so I am pretty darn sure it works | 08:55 |
| Bhaskar | srichter, i have involving in localization of schooltool which is based on zope server, so i m interested on the issue of UTF, Nepali support | 08:56 |
| srichter | right | 08:56 |
| Bhaskar | srichter, can we translate zope 3 into nepali?? | 08:56 |
| srichter | absolutely | 08:56 |
| baijum | Bhaskar, Nepali langauge uses Devanagari script ? | 08:58 |
| Bhaskar | srichter, how pls tell me? | 08:58 |
| Bhaskar | baijum, ya | 08:58 |
| srichter | there is a lot of documentation out there, especially in the books | 08:59 |
| srichter | currently I think it is a matter of providing a translation in Launchpad | 08:59 |
| srichter | and then send a message to the mailing list asking for inclusion | 08:59 |
| srichter | to test your translation, just look into: Zope3/src/zope/app/locales how other languages did it | 09:00 |
| Bhaskar | srichter, how can i get POT to make po | 09:01 |
| srichter | the POT is right there | 09:01 |
| srichter | check out the dir | 09:01 |
| Bhaskar | srichter, ok | 09:02 |
| Bhaskar | srichter, then after making po and mo, ?? | 09:02 |
| srichter | restart Zope, set the language in your browser and it just works | 09:03 |
| Bhaskar | srichter, ok | 09:04 |
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| Bhaskar | srichter, tell me more about zope | 09:08 |
| srichter | aehm, I don't have time for that; if you are interested in Zope 3, you should pick up one of the books or look at other introductory documentation; I am sure googling for Zope 3 will provide answers quickly | 09:10 |
| Bhaskar | srichter, ok | 09:12 |
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| romanofski | morjens :) | 09:44 |
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| coolestuk | hi folks | 12:19 |
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| coolestuk | i'm still trying to get my head round what Zope 3 is (and waiting for The Book) to be delivered | 12:25 |
| coolestuk | i'll just talk aloud and say what i think, and hopefully be corrected along the way | 12:26 |
| coolestuk | i'm familiar with Notes/Domino and WebObjects | 12:26 |
| coolestuk | and it seems to me that Zope 2 fits somewhere in between those two products | 12:26 |
| coolestuk | Notes applications combine code & a free-form database (structured on documents and views) | 12:27 |
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| coolestuk | WebObjects (at its zenith) uses a model of a datastore & templated components & rules to produce an application | 12:29 |
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| coolestuk | Zope 2 seems far closer to Notes than WebObjects | 12:29 |
| coolestuk | Zope 3 looks more like WebObjects | 12:30 |
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| coolestuk | it looks to me like it uses test-driven development & configuration (rules?) & components to provide a generalized application framework that is suitable for more than just HTML applications | 12:31 |
| coolestuk | does that seem anywhere like a view from 10,000 feet from someone with little experience of either zope 2 or zope 3 | 12:32 |
| softdevr | I'm just starting at looking to transition from PHP to zope (Zope 3) | 12:33 |
| softdevr | Your statement seems correct to me | 12:34 |
| softdevr | There is a book that you can dl | 12:34 |
| coolestuk | thanks softdevr | 12:35 |
| softdevr | Can't find the link, hang on | 12:36 |
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| softdevr | wiki.zope.org/zope3/FrontPage | 12:38 |
| coolestuk | thanks | 12:38 |
| coolestuk | how are you finding the transition from PHP? | 12:38 |
| softdevr | there is the'Zope 3 Developer's book' link but other resources on that page too | 12:39 |
| softdevr | Well PHP you can install and pretty much start coding, which you can't with Zope 3. | 12:40 |
| coolestuk | yes... so you consciously decided to avoid zope 2? | 12:40 |
| softdevr | But it seems that I'll be able to develop larger and more complex systems with zope 3 | 12:41 |
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| softdevr | Yeah I read about the problems of extending apps in Zope 2 and thought that if I started on Zope 2 now by the time I was proficient Zope 3 will have become more wide-spread | 12:44 |
| coolestuk | Zope 2 is quite amazing too in its own right | 12:44 |
| coolestuk | i wanted to do stuff in Notes or WebObjects like e.g. WebDav | 12:45 |
| coolestuk | and it is really hard | 12:45 |
| coolestuk | and then I remembered Zope and started to look into that again | 12:45 |
| coolestuk | I looked at Zope four years ago, but decided it wasn't for me - it just seemed too complex, too many ways to do things and too hard to debug | 12:46 |
| coolestuk | and a lot has happened in the Zope world since then - although it looks like a lot of traditional Zopers are having a crisis when it comes to Zope 3 | 12:47 |
| coolestuk | so now I'm just trying to grasp what Zope 3 is, and see if it will fit in with what I need | 12:47 |
| softdevr | I like the idea of component-oriented development in Zope 3. I've met a little COM before but haven't developed a full system using a component architecture | 12:48 |
| coolestuk | WebObjects is component oriented through and through | 12:49 |
| coolestuk | and to date it has been the most amazing environment for me for web development | 12:49 |
| coolestuk | for example: since at least the late 1990s one could take a model of a database schema and generate the app from that | 12:50 |
| coolestuk | and then use a system of rules to customize that app | 12:51 |
| coolestuk | and add customize components, and slot the customized versions in place based on rules | 12:51 |
| softdevr | Where is it falling short? | 12:51 |
| coolestuk | they even have the mantra: "if your're writing code, you're doing something wrong" | 12:52 |
| coolestuk | it's java, and it's basically been abandoned by Apple | 12:52 |
| coolestuk | but they refuse to open-source it | 12:53 |
| coolestuk | and they even refuse to state clearly that it is licensed for free use | 12:53 |
| coolestuk | so it is really in a limbo area | 12:53 |
| coolestuk | but I'm hopeing that Zope 3 offers even better features than WO | 12:53 |
| coolestuk | maybe not right now, but within the next year | 12:53 |
| coolestuk | WO has very good GUI tools, but they are now deprecated by Apple | 12:54 |
| softdevr | I don't see their mantra being very applicable here | 12:54 |
| coolestuk | right... so you see that Zope 3 apps require a lot of coding? | 12:55 |
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| softdevr | Well maybe not a lot, but your own model-specific components, and then plug-ins for packages | 12:58 |
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| softdevr | Then the app creation in ZCML | 12:59 |
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| softdevr | You can use the ZMI for app configuration, but apparently that isn't very popular | 13:01 |
| coolestuk | right, i noticed that the ZMI seems to be NOT the way that Zope 3 is meant to be used | 13:02 |
| coolestuk | in a way, Zope 2 is very like Notes - in a Notes application code/data go together | 13:02 |
| coolestuk | and code can go in so many different places inside the application | 13:02 |
| coolestuk | and it is hard to do version control, and hard to find where stuff is being executed | 13:03 |
| coolestuk | and the 'stuff' being executed can be in many different languages (formulas, vb,java,etc) | 13:03 |
| coolestuk | that all seems quite like Zope 2 | 13:03 |
| coolestuk | and the ZMI seems like the tool to administer and develop zope 2 apps | 13:04 |
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| coolestuk | how long have you been learning zope 3? | 13:06 |
| softdevr | on and off during the last week and a half | 13:06 |
| coolestuk | what are the biggest problems in learning it, in your opinion? | 13:07 |
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| softdevr | Its not been too bad so far. I picked a few select chapters from that book and asked the odd question here | 13:09 |
| coolestuk | cool | 13:10 |
| softdevr | Once you have the Zope server up and running check out the help section there | 13:10 |
| softdevr | It has the API documentated there | 13:10 |
| coolestuk | ok | 13:10 |
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| softdevr | Also check out www.worldcookery.com/Appetizers/ | 13:11 |
| coolestuk | I've been spending the last week or so re-learning Zope 2, and I might just have to forget all that and go to Zope 3 instead | 13:11 |
| softdevr | The hello world screen-cast is a useful starting point | 13:11 |
| coolestuk | thanks, i will... I ordered his book from amazon | 13:11 |
| coolestuk | cool, i have to go in a minute... but thanks for your input | 13:12 |
| softdevr | sure, and for yours too | 13:12 |
| coolestuk | see you around :-) | 13:12 |
| softdevr | yeah, probably :) | 13:13 |
| coolestuk | i'm not even sure how to leave IRC, so when I close the window in a minute, it might look like I'm still here... so don't think I'm rude if I don't reply ! | 13:13 |
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| * baijum thinks z.a.t.functional.defineLayer makes it difficult to understanding the code, it sets a value in test module's namespace | 14:32 | |
| * baijum of course it saves two lines of code | 14:32 | |
| * baijum see this : http://zope3.pastebin.com/872057 | 14:32 | |
| * baijum consider the case of importing 'ALayer' from another test setup module | 14:32 | |
| * baijum it will be more confusing for a person reading the code | 14:32 | |
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| * mgedmin thinks that zope3.pastebin.com is slow | 14:36 | |
| * mgedmin likes pastey.net | 14:36 | |
| * baijum pasted to: http://pastey.net/5739-48en | 14:37 | |
| mgedmin | what are those two lines of code that defineLayer replaces? | 14:37 |
| mgedmin | LayerName = ZCMLLayer(...) ? | 14:37 |
| mgedmin | and something else? | 14:37 |
| baijum | yes, LayerName = ZCMLLayer(...) | 14:38 |
| mgedmin | ah, only that | 14:38 |
| mgedmin | plus some magic to find the .zcml in a directory where the test module lives | 14:39 |
| * baijum thinks LayerName = ZCMLLayer(...) is more straight forward | 14:40 | |
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| mgedmin | how's the zope 3 bug tracker migration to launchpad going? | 15:15 |
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| *** baijum changes topic to "logs available at http://zope3.pov.lt/irclogs/ || paste code examples into http://zope3.pastey.net/ or http://zope3.pastebin.com/ or http://paste.plone.org/ || Zope 3.3.0 is out || bugs live at http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev || Wiki at http://wiki.zope.org/zope3 || FAQ at http://wiki.zope.org/zope3/FAQ" | 15:24 | |
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| * baijum added http://zope3.pastey.net/ to IRC topic | 15:25 | |
| baijum | thanks mgedmin for pointing this new pastebin | 15:26 |
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| * mgedmin checks whether zope 3.3.1 hasn't been released yet... nope | 15:27 | |
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| philiKON_ | mgedmin: nope, there's a problem on windows | 16:14 |
| philiKON_ | a test failure | 16:14 |
| philiKON_ | i was hoping mkerrin could look at it | 16:14 |
| philiKON_ | it's twisted related | 16:14 |
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| ignas | has anyone ever made an object either implement or not implement an interface based on a value of it's attribute (or any other constraint that can be easily checked when computing the list of implemented interfaces of an object) ? | 16:39 |
| benji | ignas: I recall people wanting to do that; I could imagine a using a property instead of an attribute and providing/unproviding when the value is set | 16:41 |
| ignas | benji: hmm, that will not work for me :/ | 16:45 |
| * ignas is looking at ContainedProxy | 16:48 | |
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| srichter | ignas: yeah, I do that all the time | 17:08 |
| srichter | two approaches: | 17:09 |
| srichter | (1) Use a property as Benji suggests | 17:09 |
| srichter | (2) Write an event listener for object modified event | 17:09 |
| ignas | but if the modification is not for the object ? | 17:10 |
| ignas | various indirect modifications i mean | 17:10 |
| srichter | well, then you have to create the events, so that subscribers can do their work | 17:11 |
| ignas | hmm | 17:11 |
| srichter | I create a lot of events these days for any real customer apps | 17:11 |
| srichter | I often even create special events within the content component property code just to have them | 17:11 |
| srichter | you have to provide hooks somewhere; properties and events are good implementations to provide those hooks | 17:12 |
| ignas | hmm | 17:12 |
| ignas | i would like the "compute stuff when __provides__ is being accessed" way a bit more | 17:12 |
| srichter | in fact, I would claim that one should as carefully design the events as everything else; getting events right makes your life much, much easier | 17:13 |
| srichter | well, that can be done too of course; but I would worry about speed | 17:13 |
| srichter | __provides__ must be very efficient, since we adapt all the time | 17:13 |
| ignas | that is also true | 17:14 |
| srichter | ignas: is this for ST? | 17:14 |
| ignas | yes | 17:14 |
| srichter | I would implement appropriate events then | 17:14 |
| srichter | ST is meant to be pluggable, so you have to provide the hooks | 17:15 |
| ignas | the whole point of such scheme would be pluggability | 17:15 |
| ignas | but in a different manner ... | 17:15 |
| srichter | right | 17:15 |
| srichter | as I said, I do this all the time too | 17:15 |
| ignas | what i really want is - different interfaces for different person roles | 17:16 |
| srichter | yep, this is one case where I used them :-) | 17:16 |
| ignas | like - if a person is added to a teacher group it suddently starts implementing ITeacher | 17:16 |
| srichter | yep :-) | 17:16 |
| ignas | but i don't want to constraint the role switching to some specific attributes at the same time | 17:16 |
| srichter | so listen to the group added or so event and add an interface when appropriate | 17:17 |
| srichter | the nice thing about a group is that it is site global | 17:17 |
| srichter | so you cannot override this locally | 17:17 |
| ignas | groups are easy, but it's a constraint, i am guessing the way schooltool will be extended by other developers | 17:17 |
| srichter | if you want to do the same with roles, it becomes tricky | 17:17 |
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| srichter | ignas: don't over-engineer now in anticipation of future needs; solve your use case | 17:18 |
| ignas | making the role computed every time dynamically is a lot more flexible, but might be way too slow or complex | 17:18 |
| srichter | yeah, I think ST will be fine with a well-defined set of groups + local role assignment to signify ownership | 17:19 |
| ignas | srichter: i have spent like 30 minutes "overengineering" it, so i still have some time :) | 17:19 |
| srichter | this is what I do in an application and it has worked really well | 17:19 |
| ignas | but yes, i guess constraining roles to groups would be enough for most real usecases | 17:20 |
| ignas | srichter: btw - any ideas on how to override/remove subscriubers ? | 17:20 |
| ignas | i have a real pain with disabling of functionality for a client | 17:20 |
| ignas | i mean - adding with zope3 is easy | 17:20 |
| ignas | add a view, add an adapter etc. | 17:20 |
| srichter | unfortunately not; Jim and I really have to work this out :-( | 17:21 |
| ignas | but what to do with a client who doesn't want to see some links to views in the action_menu | 17:21 |
| srichter | we talked about this last week when I was at ZC | 17:21 |
| ignas | i see | 17:21 |
| ignas | at least it's not only me having problems :) | 17:21 |
| srichter | first of all, the menus suck unless you use viewlets | 17:22 |
| srichter | I remember having converted a few menus but not all | 17:22 |
| ignas | well - viewlets can't be disablet as well ... | 17:22 |
| srichter | yeah, they can :-) | 17:22 |
| ignas | how ? | 17:22 |
| srichter | with overridesInclude you can register "disabling viewlets" | 17:22 |
| ignas | hmm | 17:22 |
| ignas | any examples ? docs? | 17:22 |
| srichter | basically, viewlets that declare their availability to be false | 17:22 |
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| ignas | includeOverrides :) | 17:22 |
| srichter | another, probably better, option would be to make menus configurable | 17:23 |
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| srichter | i.e. store site annotations about the menu availability; viewlets can then use this annotation to declare their availability | 17:24 |
| srichter | ST has really not thought enough about customization | 17:24 |
| ignas | well componentization of schooltool has been pushed a lot by having 2 clients with different requirements and a core that has to stay clean of client specific stuff :) | 17:24 |
| srichter | for my recent client we developed a lot of patterns; I think z3c.baseregistry would be another package to look at | 17:24 |
| ignas | "site annotations" ? | 17:24 |
| srichter | site annotations: store the menu item availability as data on the SchoolTool instance | 17:25 |
| ignas | i don't really think that storing stuff in ZODB is a very nice way in my case ... the database get's zapped clean at least once a week ... | 17:25 |
| srichter | that's okay | 17:25 |
| srichter | you have a really nice tool in ST called the configurator, which you should use for that (btw, I reimplemented it in z3c.configurator, and several people have since contributed to it making it much more flexible) | 17:26 |
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| ignas | hmm | 17:28 |
| ignas | if only i had the time to try it out ... | 17:28 |
| ignas | is it available as an egg ? | 17:28 |
| srichter | I am not sure, if someone eggified it | 17:28 |
| srichter | you should really take the time to check it out; it saves you time in the long run | 17:28 |
| srichter | why would you not want to profit from the community work? | 17:29 |
| ignas | because i have a lot of time and at the same time i am very short on it ... | 17:29 |
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| ignas | new configuration engine might save some time, but i am not sure i will be spending much time on the configuration bits at alll | 17:30 |
| ignas | i mean if it was one long "assignment" to make a huge system then - yes, but now it's more like fix a lot of small things and make them work, with all of them adding up to a huge amount of time ... | 17:33 |
| srichter | we do not publish those packages, because we have too much time, but help people with the same needs out | 17:33 |
| srichter | well, then just use the ST configurator | 17:33 |
| srichter | it will work | 17:33 |
| srichter | you basically just need a new configurator plugin that sets up your menu choices | 17:34 |
| ignas | hmm, i will do that if i'll have to disable a lot of views, but now it's more like 3-4 viewlet based menu items | 17:35 |
| ignas | and Lyceum module has it's own overrides | 17:35 |
| ignas | so i think overlaying the viewlets will be good enough | 17:35 |
| ignas | just that i was unaware one can disable viewlets | 17:36 |
| srichter | yep, probably; as long as it does not become too complex | 17:36 |
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| srichter | well, the viewlet framework leaves this up to you to implement | 17:36 |
| srichter | basically write a viewlet manager that only shows a viewlet if the viewlet's "available" attribute is True | 17:37 |
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| srichter | ignas: let me check; I think we even have a z3c package for this sort of thing :-) | 17:39 |
| ignas | egg it :) | 17:39 |
| ignas | please | 17:40 |
| srichter | that will be your contribution :-) | 17:40 |
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| srichter | I solve your problems, and you egg it for me :-) | 17:40 |
| ignas | eggs require the "this package does this thing" description | 17:40 |
| srichter | actually it is already egged | 17:40 |
| ignas | and i have trouble comming up with it for someone other people create | 17:40 |
| ignas | how is it called ? | 17:40 |
| srichter | z3c.menu | 17:41 |
| ignas | nice :) | 17:41 |
| ignas | thank you :) | 17:41 |
| srichter | but I think it doe not have the available flag thing, but it is useful for you guys nevertheless | 17:41 |
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| srichter | btw, Roger and I will develop a lot of generic UI components in the next month that will demonstrate a lot of those type of features | 17:43 |
| ignas | nice | 17:45 |
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| ignas | srichter: going to pycon? | 17:54 |
| srichter | no, going skiing instead :-) | 17:54 |
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| ignas | :) | 17:55 |
| ignas | i haven't attended pycon in my life yet, though when i think about it - i haven't been skiing as well ... | 17:58 |
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| CSWookie | What do we always say? "Next year in the holy land! Next year at PyCon!" | 18:00 |
| ignas | CSWookie: you mean "unholy"? | 18:03 |
| CSWookie | ignas: Nah, What's the point of Aliah to a profane place? | 18:03 |
| CSWookie | ignas: Although my freind Terry makes a pilgrammage to Vegas at least twice a year... | 18:04 |
| CSWookie | should probably go to vegas. | 18:05 |
| CSWookie | It'd be the cheapest trip ever, because I can't drink, and don't gamble. | 18:06 |
| ignas | :) | 18:06 |
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| ignas | srichter: how does one depend on a z3c.menu egg? as they are not kept in http://www.python.org/pypi/ they must have some url to put into the dependency links section, though i could not find what the url is ... | 19:19 |
| srichter | no idea | 19:19 |
| srichter | I know absolutely nothing about eggs | 19:19 |
| srichter | I just saw the setup.py file there | 19:19 |
| srichter | isn't there a Zope package repository? | 19:20 |
| ignas | yes there is one, but z3c.menu is not in it, it's in download.lovelysystems.com | 19:20 |
| srichter | ok | 19:20 |
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| philiKON_ | srichter: i can recommend reading about eggs. they're great to work with. | 19:21 |
| mgedmin | but very mysterious | 19:22 |
| srichter | yep, I will eventually; but I just never wear the deployment hat; Jim will eventually force me to look at it with 3.4 :-) | 19:22 |
| ignas | philiKON_: maybe you have any ideas ? http://download.lovelysystems.com/cgi-bin/pypi.cgi/ seems to look just like python.org/pypi but putting that url into dependency_links does not help ... | 19:22 |
| philiKON_ | ignas: i think at least easy_install has an option to make it look at a different pypi | 19:23 |
| philiKON_ | i don't get why zthe z3c packages can't be registered with the "official" pypi | 19:23 |
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| ignas | easy_install - yes, but i want my egg to depend on packages in a different location | 19:23 |
| philiKON_ | srichter: i'm not a deployment guy either. eggs have other advantages, too | 19:24 |
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| philiKON_ | ignas: good question... | 19:25 |
| philiKON_ | ignas: perhap stalk with the z3c.* maintainers and get these things registered on the official cheeseshop? | 19:26 |
| srichter | actually you can just do it | 19:26 |
| srichter | it is the community namespace :-) | 19:26 |
| ignas | philiKON_: when it comes to fixing others vs fixing my code - i am fixing my code, because well - that always works ;) | 19:26 |
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| philiKON_ | srichter: right. that's what i was trying to point ignas to ;) | 19:27 |
| philiKON_ | ignas: just do python setup.py register with the packages you need :) | 19:27 |
| ignas | and i am considering unofficial packaging something to be avoided ... | 19:27 |
| ignas | unofficial meaning - not done by the author of the thing | 19:28 |
| philiKON_ | then talk to the author... | 19:28 |
| ignas | looks like lovelysystems is doing the unofficial packaging thing | 19:32 |
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| ignas | with full write permissions for anyone | 19:34 |
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| ignas | srichter: btw, i have a patch (wiating for some cleanup) that makes zope i18n extraction code verify the translation domain in python files when generating the pot file | 19:42 |
| srichter | really? | 19:43 |
| srichter | cool | 19:43 |
| srichter | are you inspecting the AST further? | 19:43 |
| ignas | AST ? | 19:44 |
| srichter | Python byte code tree | 19:44 |
| ignas | no | 19:44 |
| srichter | how do you determine the domain? | 19:44 |
| ignas | probably not - i am just using the python path and importing the module | 19:44 |
| ignas | and then inspecting the '_' in the module | 19:44 |
| srichter | ah, importing is what we try to avoid, since it is not always possible | 19:45 |
| ignas | works for schooltool (with some warnings in broken files) | 19:45 |
| srichter | we can add it optionally | 19:45 |
| ignas | it is an option | 19:45 |
| srichter | ok | 19:45 |
| ignas | a keyword argument for py_strings | 19:45 |
| srichter | ok, I am looking forward to the checkin | 19:45 |
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| ignas | i'll just clean it up and mail it to zope3-dev (i have no commit rights) | 19:46 |
| srichter | you should get them :-) | 19:46 |
| srichter | it is really hard for one of us to add source of another person | 19:46 |
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| srichter | in other words, we have to wait for the ZC bottleneck :-) | 19:46 |
| ignas | ouch, well still - it gives others a reason to review my code ;) | 19:47 |
| srichter | ok | 19:47 |
| ignas | and i get less responsibility for weird stuff :) | 19:47 |
| CSWookie | I'm scared of your code. I FEAR. | 19:47 |
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| ignas | CSWookie: you can look at it if you want :) (sent the patch to Zope3-dev) | 20:26 |
| CSWookie | ignas: I'm not on zope3-dev. My email is full enough. | 20:30 |
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| ignas | CSWookie: excuses, excuses ... http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.zope.zope3/ | 20:37 |
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| ignas | srichter: emm, btw - z3c.menu is quite buggy when it comes to i18n ... | 20:50 |
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| srichter | huh, we use it in a fully I18n'ed package | 20:51 |
| srichter | huh, we use it in a fully I18n'ed application | 20:51 |
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| srichter | what is buggy? | 20:51 |
| ignas | at least not all pt files have their translation domains set i think | 20:52 |
| ignas | and the title for ISimpleMenuItem is TextLine not i18n msgid | 20:52 |
| srichter | they don't have to, if they do not contain translatable tex | 20:52 |
| srichter | they don't have to, if they do not contain translatable text | 20:52 |
| ignas | tab_item.pt - (Title is translated, but there is no domain) | 20:53 |
| srichter | no, it is not that title is translated | 20:53 |
| srichter | it will always be replaced | 20:53 |
| ignas | oh, hmm, indeed | 20:54 |
| srichter | in fact, the i18n:translate could go away | 20:54 |
| ignas | what about the viewlet directive? | 20:54 |
| srichter | I guess this is a left over from the time where I18n message ids were not translated automaticallky | 20:54 |
| srichter | what about it? | 20:54 |
| srichter | the viewlet directive does not contain any translatable strings | 20:55 |
| srichter | you subclass all of the classes to get your actual menu items and menus | 20:55 |
| ignas | shouldn't the title of a menu item be translatable ? | 20:55 |
| ignas | oh, i see | 20:55 |
| srichter | so all translatable strings are defined as meesage ids | 20:55 |
| ignas | i have confused it with a zcml directive | 20:55 |
| ignas | which it is not | 20:55 |
| srichter | right | 20:55 |
| ignas | sorry | 20:55 |
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| ignas | i used the custom viewlet directive for menus in schooltool as there were just too many standard menu items | 20:56 |
| srichter | we use every bit of this package in our application which is 100% translatable, so I would be really surprised about those type of bugs | 20:56 |
| ignas | i see | 20:56 |
| srichter | right, a custom directive might work well in several cases | 20:57 |
| srichter | we have not done that; our menu items are sufficiently complex that it would not have been useful to us | 20:57 |
| ignas | i guess i should review all the i18n:translate="" in my templates | 20:58 |
| ignas | in schooltool menu directives are a replacement for the menu stuff in <page zcml directive | 20:58 |
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| srichter | yeah, we never fully explored the viewlet menu opportunities in ST | 20:59 |
| srichter | I have definitely done this in the other project and the flexibility allows for very different and exciting menu structures | 21:00 |
| srichter | well, it was the other way around: the project demanded unexpected, complex menu layouts | 21:00 |
| ignas | i see | 21:03 |
| ignas | any ideas on how to i18n all the numbers displayed in an app ? | 21:03 |
| ignas | nepal has it's own digits | 21:03 |
| srichter | (the usability bebenfits are great though) | 21:03 |
| * mgedmin wonders if maybe request.locale has a number formatter or something | 21:03 | |
| srichter | like 1 -> \x0xxx ? | 21:04 |
| srichter | mgedmin: it does, but I am pretty sure it does not do arabic number conversion | 21:04 |
| ignas | srichter: yes | 21:04 |
| srichter | it only sets the thousands separator and decimal separator correctly | 21:04 |
| srichter | ignas: do you know the region code for nepal? | 21:05 |
| ignas | hmm, "ne" ? | 21:05 |
| srichter | ne is not in the list | 21:05 |
| srichter | NP | 21:06 |
| srichter | mmh, np is also not in out locales list | 21:06 |
| ignas | hmm, rosetta thinks that it's "ne" | 21:06 |
| srichter | ok, the language code is | 21:07 |
| srichter | correct | 21:07 |
| srichter | sorry | 21:07 |
| srichter | ne_NP | 21:07 |
| WebMaven | srichter: got a moment? | 21:07 |
| srichter | WebMaven: sure | 21:08 |
| WebMaven | srichter: do you know of any exisiting xml validation functions for a Zope3 schema field? | 21:08 |
| ignas | srichter: bye, i have to run now, sorry | 21:09 |
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| srichter | WebMaven: no | 21:09 |
| WebMaven | Hmm. | 21:09 |
| srichter | I would just try to parse it with etree or lxml and if an error occurs have the validation fail | 21:10 |
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| WebMaven | will either of those optionally validate against a DTD? | 21:11 |
| srichter | I think lxml does | 21:12 |
| WebMaven | OK, thanks for the pointer. | 21:12 |
| WebMaven | I have one last question (this might require a long answer you don't have time to giv): | 21:13 |
| WebMaven | how can I express an *optional* validation of a form? | 21:14 |
| WebMaven | ie, I want user feedback that the form content is not (yet) valid, but still save it. | 21:15 |
| WebMaven | mark the saved object as currently invalid. | 21:15 |
| srichter | you are on your own there | 21:17 |
| srichter | the entire formlib form implementation is based on the concept that the validation must be fulfilled | 21:17 |
| WebMaven | Yeah, I kind of thought that might be the case. | 21:18 |
| srichter | if you want to make things optional, you can either loosen your constraints, provide special validators that ignore certain errors or implement an additional framework for this | 21:18 |
| srichter | I certainly have not done that yet | 21:18 |
| srichter | I think extremely careful about the constraints and validation of data when I do the model code | 21:19 |
| srichter | usually such an optional behavior is a sign that your expectations are wrong | 21:19 |
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| WebMaven | I have an idea that might work. Do you have time to listen to me thinking out loud? | 21:19 |
| srichter | in other words, I would never ever store invalid data; it makes the system inconsistent | 21:20 |
| WebMaven | I can also explain the use-case if you are interested. | 21:20 |
| srichter | shoot | 21:20 |
| srichter | the use case would be best | 21:20 |
| WebMaven | use-case first, then. | 21:20 |
| WebMaven | this is user-authored XML. | 21:20 |
| mgedmin | I have a good counter-argument for "never storing invalid data" | 21:20 |
| srichter | mgedmin: shoot too :-) | 21:20 |
| WebMaven | While the system should never try to parse the invalid xml | 21:21 |
| mgedmin | big chunk of data, I'm halfway through filling it in, but I need to go somewhere, and I'll continue filling it/looking for the bug later (say tomorrow) | 21:21 |
| WebMaven | A user should not lose their work-in-progress just because they can't find the missing /> | 21:21 |
| mgedmin | I should be able to save the data I've already entered | 21:21 |
| mgedmin | and then continue from where I left it | 21:21 |
| WebMaven | mgedmin: exactly. | 21:22 |
| srichter | mgedmin: right, this is a common use case that I have to do too; in fact wizards work this way | 21:22 |
| srichter | mgedmin: in those cases I store the object or the data in a session | 21:22 |
| mgedmin | I once read an insightful blog post about validation | 21:22 |
| mgedmin | it argued that there's no generic validation | 21:22 |
| mgedmin | there's many kinds of validation for different purposes | 21:22 |
| srichter | mgedmin: I usually develop less strict sub-interfaces for this type of work and verify the entire object before adding it to the system | 21:22 |
| WebMaven | srichter: A session is no good. It might (would) expire. | 21:22 |
| WebMaven | So, that is the use-case. | 21:23 |
| srichter | then implement a session that does not expire; some user annotation with todo items or so; plenty of options | 21:23 |
| WebMaven | Huh. | 21:23 |
| WebMaven | OK... that's an interesting idea... | 21:24 |
| srichter | storing invalid data in system is just a recipe for disaster; because it breaks your expectations of the core system | 21:24 |
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| WebMaven | srichter: OK. I understand that point. | 21:25 |
| srichter | in one of my applications, for example, we had stati on an object; when the status was "incomplete", the system knew not to trust that object or apply its expectations | 21:26 |
| WebMaven | Yes... I was going to suggest something similar. | 21:26 |
| srichter | (I would consider this a cheap shot, but it works, because our entire core policy was based on those stati) | 21:26 |
| WebMaven | In my case, I was going to store a valid/invalid flag | 21:27 |
| srichter | but I do not feel good about it; we should have implemented a to-do like container | 21:27 |
| WebMaven | make it read-only (or hidden in the form) | 21:27 |
| WebMaven | and set it from the handle_success method. | 21:28 |
| srichter | mmh, that puts a lot of the logic into the form (view code) | 21:29 |
| srichter | I would solve this further down | 21:29 |
| WebMaven | in the object's class? | 21:29 |
| srichter | or at least the valid/invalid flag needs to create events when changed, so that your system can react | 21:30 |
| srichter | (like indexing or so) | 21:30 |
| srichter | yep | 21:30 |
| srichter | the system must be able to passively get notified about an object becoming valid | 21:30 |
| srichter | for example, the system ignores an object completely as long as it is invlaid (btw, I would probably use an interface here, since registrations will most likely vary) | 21:31 |
| srichter | but it must immediately do something, if it gets validated | 21:31 |
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| WebMaven | I'm not sure that that works in my case, the 'does something' is an expensive operation that only happens when the user asks for it *and* all the siblings are valid too. | 21:33 |
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| srichter | so implement a policy that a parent can never become valid unless all children are valid | 21:34 |
| WebMaven | OK. | 21:34 |
| srichter | event subscribers are truly wonderful for this sort of thing | 21:35 |
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| turian | I'm trying to decide between Zope2, Zope3, Plone, Five, &tc., and it's making my head spin | 21:35 |
| WebMaven | I understand the approach. It will take some time for me to work that into the implementation. | 21:35 |
| turian | Can anyway talk me through this a bit? | 21:35 |
| WebMaven | srichter: meanwhile, I am a little unsure how to move the optional validation (to set the flag) into the class. | 21:36 |
| WebMaven | turian: sure | 21:36 |
| turian | WebMaven: Basically, I have an ambitious project in mind | 21:36 |
| WebMaven | srichter: this is a ZAlchemy object, BTW | 21:36 |
| turian | I imagine it will take me a while to build it | 21:37 |
| turian | Which is fine | 21:37 |
| turian | Basically, a sort of all-in-one wiki to organize my life | 21:37 |
| turian | And integrate stuff like todo lists, contact management, blogging, &tc. | 21:37 |
| srichter | WebMaven: yeah, so there you go again; another disadvantage of SQL-based objects; you cannot directly provide interfaces; what a shame; you have no choice but to implement a flag attribute | 21:38 |
| turian | Reviews of music, books, movies, restaurants | 21:38 |
| turian | Integration with maps (e.g. google maps) | 21:38 |
| WebMaven | srichter: I can't? | 21:38 |
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| srichter | WebMaven: objects get always destroyed after a while, right? | 21:39 |
| turian | And then some smarter stuff, using some NLP and AI to do things automagically | 21:39 |
| turian | WebMaven: With me so far? | 21:39 |
| srichter | WebMaven: It will only work, if you store an object stub in the ZODB | 21:39 |
| turian | I don't mind if it takes me a while to build. | 21:39 |
| WebMaven | turian: you're right, that is an ambitious project. | 21:39 |
| turian | But nonetheless, I don't want to reinvent the wheel | 21:39 |
| srichter | WebMaven: but it would also mean that the relational database does not represent the complete state of the object | 21:39 |
| turian | I think if I take it in small steps, then it should be fine | 21:39 |
| WebMaven | srichter: Ah. | 21:39 |
| WebMaven | Yes, I see. | 21:40 |
| turian | I want to be able to do really simple stuff first | 21:40 |
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| turian | Like just enter content in an unorganized fashion | 21:40 |
| turian | But at least have it keep TRACK of everything I don't want to forget | 21:40 |
| turian | Then, later on, I want to be able to make it more sophisticated | 21:40 |
| turian | And when I define certain types (like a 'contact' type) | 21:41 |
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| turian | I can go back to the stuff I already have entered and make it that type | 21:41 |
| turian | So what I'm looking for is: | 21:41 |
| turian | 1) A platform that will let me get up and running relatively quickly, allowing me to store information (unorganized) | 21:41 |
| WebMaven | turian: have you ever done anything this complex before? | 21:42 |
| turian | with complete revision history and whatnot. | 21:42 |
| turian | WebMaven: Web developmentwise, no, but for other software, yeah | 21:42 |
| turian | I'm capable of learning whatever it is I want to learn, I just don't want to waste the time learning ten different things | 21:42 |
| turian | and going in ten different directions, rather than making progress. | 21:43 |
| WebMaven | Turian, your best bet is probably to pick a system that does *most* of what you need, and add to it. | 21:43 |
| turian | Okay | 21:43 |
| turian | Which is what? | 21:43 |
| WebMaven | Most likely Plone. | 21:43 |
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| WebMaven | But, because it is a large, complex system, it will take time to learn. | 21:44 |
| ktwilight | but it's a wiki no? go for a wiki platform? | 21:44 |
| turian | ktwilight: ? | 21:45 |
| turian | It is or it isn't a wiki? | 21:45 |
| WebMaven | ktwilight: Plone is not a wiki platform per-se, but it does have wiki functionality as an add-on. | 21:45 |
| ktwilight | true. but i would look also into wiki platforms, then weight it all out. in terms of cost, time, stability and future-proof | 21:45 |
| ktwilight | but meh, i dunno. just my views. but plone can be considered. | 21:46 |
| WebMaven | One of plone's wiki add-ons *is* a wiki platform in it's own right: Zwiki. | 21:46 |
| turian | ktwilight: I looked into wiki platforms a while back, and remember deciding on something zope-based | 21:46 |
| ktwilight | gotta look into flexibility too. cross-check your requirements against all | 21:47 |
| turian | ktwilight: Although I'd appreciate any other suggestions you have. | 21:47 |
| turian | Here are my requirements: | 21:47 |
| WebMaven | Sure. I only gave my opinion, which is worth exactly what you paid for it. | 21:47 |
| srichter | I think for what you want to do, you are best off with a Zope solution (be it Plone or whatever) | 21:48 |
| ktwilight | :) | 21:48 |
| turian | 1) I'd like to be able to get it up and running relatively quickly, so I can just start dropping stuff in and not forgetting about it. | 21:48 |
| srichter | because you want to morph objects, which pure wiki platforms would be hard to bend to | 21:48 |
| ktwilight | but which zope...? ;) | 21:48 |
| turian | 2) I'd like it to remember a lot of stuff (e.g. complete revision history with timestamps) | 21:48 |
| srichter | I am too biased to give an opinion; my answer will always be: pure Zope 3 | 21:49 |
| turian | 3) I'd like it to be powerful enough to define types (e.g. 'contact', etc.) | 21:49 |
| * ktwilight likes pure Z3 | 21:49 | |
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| turian | 4) I'd like to be able to twiddle the content directly | 21:50 |
| turian | More on 4). Let's say I sit down and have a lot of unstructured entries. | 21:50 |
| turian | Then, I go back an implement named-entity detection. So I want to go back and convert some entries into a different type, and extract data and fill in structured fields | 21:51 |
| turian | Yeah? | 21:51 |
| turian | Will plone/zwiki allow me to do that? | 21:51 |
| WebMaven | turian: well, the underlying platform won't fight you to do that, but you will have to create that functionality yourself. | 21:52 |
| turian | Okay | 21:52 |
| WebMaven | that was what srichter meant. | 21:52 |
| turian | Are there other wiki solutions in the zope framework? | 21:52 |
| WebMaven | google it. | 21:52 |
| WebMaven | (that means yes) | 21:53 |
| srichter | Zope 3 also has a very simple, minimal wiki implementation (that probably needs to be updated) | 21:54 |
| srichter | but that could be as a quick start | 21:54 |
| srichter | if you are a seasoned programmer, you will have more fun with Zope 3 than Zope 2/Plone | 21:54 |
| turian | srichter: Interesting. | 21:55 |
| turian | srichter: Except I'm leery when you say "quick start" with "minimal" | 21:55 |
| srichter | well, you will have something | 21:55 |
| srichter | you are not starting blank (though this is a really attractive option to me all the time) | 21:56 |
| turian | Okay | 21:56 |
| srichter | :-) | 21:56 |
| turian | Starting blank is nice, but I'm trying to avoid that temptation :) | 21:56 |
| srichter | well, you have a strong framwork to support the development | 21:56 |
| turian | Masochism stopped being my goal when I realized I'd really like to get something off the ground, instead of just planning | 21:56 |
| turian | How mature is zwiki for zope 3? | 21:58 |
| turian | I am looking at the webpage | 21:58 |
| turian | But it is not very specific | 21:58 |
| srichter | not at all | 21:58 |
| srichter | it supports basic link replacement and page creation | 21:59 |
| srichter | the Web site uses the Zope 2 version, which is pretty advanced | 21:59 |
| srichter | but I have a feeling you want less features anyways or be able to control them well | 21:59 |
| turian | The only feature I really want to start is complete revision history | 22:00 |
| srichter | I wonder whether even Zope 2's version has that; it probably does | 22:00 |
| srichter | Zope 3 has a really nice library for revision history | 22:01 |
| srichter | (a la SVN) | 22:01 |
| turian | srichter: Really? | 22:01 |
| srichter | yep, including branching et al | 22:01 |
| turian | Also, what about integrating other sorts of RCS? | 22:01 |
| turian | I had this crazy notion | 22:02 |
| srichter | you would have to do this yourself, but Python has a nice high-level API to SVN | 22:02 |
| turian | That it might be interesting to have DARCS-like *decentralized* patch support | 22:02 |
| srichter | but then you would store your objects in SVN and not ZODB and I think this might be less desirable | 22:02 |
| turian | And then allow different users of the software to pass patches back and forth | 22:02 |
| turian | But this is a big can of worms | 22:03 |
| srichter | yep | 22:03 |
| turian | to implement I imagine | 22:03 |
| srichter | I would not go there | 22:03 |
| WebMaven | turian: patches for content? | 22:03 |
| turian | WebMaven: Yes. | 22:03 |
| srichter | http://svn.zope.org/zc.vault/trunk/ | 22:04 |
| WebMaven | turian: end-users can't even mange to use MS-Word's track changes functionality. Don't waste your time. | 22:04 |
| turian | srichter: I guess the important thing is that my design *allows* this sort of thing, and doesn't hinder it, even if I don't implement it. | 22:04 |
| srichter | yep | 22:04 |
| turian | WebMaven: Not for end-users. | 22:05 |
| turian | But it's like, let's say ten people are using the software. | 22:05 |
| WebMaven | I get it. OK. | 22:06 |
| turian | one sec | 22:06 |
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| turian | srichter: So zc.vault is the zodb revision control system? | 22:07 |
| turian | See here's the thing | 22:07 |
| srichter | yep | 22:07 |
| WebMaven | srichter: getting back to my problem, given that these are ZAlchemy objects, and I need to store a 'valid' boolean flag, where should I put the function to mark the object as valid/invalid? | 22:08 |
| srichter | tough, I guess somewhere in the success method would be fine | 22:08 |
| WebMaven | ok | 22:09 |
| srichter | I do not know the workflow of formlib out of the top of my head well enough to make a specific question | 22:09 |
| srichter | of course you can also allow invalid data to be passed in and implement a property in the model | 22:09 |
| turian | srichter: How do I learn to use zc.vault? Just a high-level pointer is fine. | 22:09 |
| srichter | actually that is much better | 22:09 |
| WebMaven | that;s OK, I've got a good-enough handle on that, I think. | 22:09 |
| turian | srichter: Also, does it have complete revision support? | 22:09 |
| srichter | turian: all packages come with *.txt files these days | 22:10 |
| srichter | turian: they are full with code that can be executed | 22:10 |
| turian | okay | 22:10 |
| srichter | turian: we call this documentation tests (short doctests) | 22:10 |
| turian | So let's so I want to really drill down to what I need right now | 22:11 |
| turian | And skip the whole wiki business | 22:11 |
| turian | Can I publish my content to text-files in the filesystem | 22:11 |
| turian | edit them using 'vi' | 22:11 |
| turian | and then commit them | 22:11 |
| srichter | yeah, there are plenty of solutions for this | 22:11 |
| srichter | there is an external editor feature | 22:12 |
| srichter | you can also develop an FTP frontend, etc | 22:12 |
| turian | Well, I'm trying to develop as little as possible while I get the bare-bones laid out | 22:12 |
| srichter | turian: I suggest buying the Zope 3 books and get started with that | 22:12 |
| turian | What about the online book? | 22:12 |
| srichter | the book is very outdated | 22:13 |
| turian | Which book(s) do you recommend? | 22:13 |
| srichter | I think that Phillip's 2nd edition will be best | 22:14 |
| srichter | you can also my book for reference and other insights, but it is also outdated | 22:14 |
| turian | oh wow | 22:15 |
| turian | that edition just came out this month huh | 22:16 |
| srichter | yep | 22:16 |
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| turian | In fact, it's not even out yet | 22:18 |
| srichter | yeah, it is out | 22:18 |
| srichter | people have bought it already as far as I know | 22:19 |
| turian | hmmm | 22:20 |
| turian | Walmart online says it won't ship until 4/28 :( | 22:20 |
| turian | Amazon and others don't seem to have it either | 22:20 |
| srichter | strange | 22:21 |
| srichter | philiKON_: is that right? | 22:21 |
| srichter | turian: best check out www.worldcookery.com | 22:21 |
| turian | I guess I can buy it from the publisher | 22:28 |
| turian | They will ship it in 3-4 weeks, they say | 22:29 |
| turian | What do you recommend I read in the meantime? | 22:29 |
| turian | My library has edition 1 | 22:29 |
| turian | And then there's your online book | 22:29 |
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| * philiKON_ is here now | 22:30 | |
| philiKON_ | turian: according to springer NYC, it'll ship feb 3rd in the states | 22:31 |
| philiKON_ | it's already shipping in europe | 22:31 |
| turian | springer.com says 3-4 weeks | 22:31 |
| philiKON_ | yeah, i know | 22:31 |
| turian | I'm in New York, maybe springer has a store here | 22:31 |
| philiKON_ | could be | 22:32 |
| philiKON_ | i'd call 'em if i were you | 22:32 |
| philiKON_ | lemme know what they say :) | 22:32 |
| philiKON_ | others are asking 'bout it too | 22:32 |
| turian | Calling them now | 22:33 |
| philiKON_ | cool | 22:33 |
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| turian | So | 22:38 |
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| turian | They say 3-4 weeks is the date if they order from germany | 22:38 |
| turian | which is where it's in stock | 22:38 |
| turian | But that the book is being released in NY on the 2nd. | 22:38 |
| turian | So if I order it online, hypothetically it should be in my mailbox on the 3rd | 22:38 |
| philiKON_ | that's good news | 22:38 |
| philiKON_ | that's friday | 22:38 |
| turian | since the warehouse is in Brooklyn | 22:38 |
| turian | "the logic was written that way" | 22:39 |
| turian | However, I don't entirely trust that my order won't be held for the german distributor | 22:39 |
| turian | So I'm just going to wait a few days until springer.com has accurate information | 22:39 |
| turian | Also, they told me that you usta be able to browse the books in their store | 22:39 |
| turian | But that, since 9/11, they don't allow that anymore, bcz the spring street office is close to the WTC site | 22:40 |
| turian | Which isn't really true, IMHO, it's SoHo, not TriBeCa or lower manhattan | 22:40 |
| philiKON_ | sounds like a poor excuse | 22:40 |
| turian | yeah whatever :P | 22:40 |
| turian | Anyway, hopefully I'll have the book by next week | 22:41 |
| turian | Looking forward to it. | 22:41 |
| philiKON_ | turian: cool | 22:41 |
| philiKON_ | turian: perhaps you can let me know when you've got it | 22:42 |
| turian | Sure | 22:42 |
| philiKON_ | so i can tell other americans that it's shipping now... | 22:42 |
| philiKON_ | cool, thanks | 22:42 |
| turian | I put it in my calendar | 22:42 |
| turian | So hopefully it won't slip my mind ;) | 22:42 |
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