IRC log of #zope3-dev for Tuesday, 2007-01-30

WebMavenDoes anyone else know?00:01
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WebMavenphiliKON_: Hi.00:06
philiKON_hi00:06
WebMavenphiliKON_: do you know if  this TALES expression form was deprecated?: "python:test(expr, val1, val2)"00:06
philiKON_this is a zope2ism00:07
philiKON_that i personally never really liked00:07
philiKON_because it's actually python:test(val1, val2, val3)00:07
WebMavenOK, what's the Zope3 form?00:07
philiKON_standard python tertiary expression00:08
philiKON_expr and <true value> or <false value>00:09
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WebMaventhere you are.00:15
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WebMavennetwork problems?00:15
WebMavenphiliKON_: anyway, thanks for the solution. Another Zope2ism to unlearn!00:18
WebMaven;-)00:18
philiKON_J1m: ayt?00:30
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J1mphiliKON_, yes00:49
J1mWebMaven, yes00:50
J1mbut I need to leave soon.00:50
philiKON_J1m: never mind, see my email to zodb-dev00:50
WebMavenJ1m: thx, philiKON_ set me straight00:51
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WebMavenphiliKON_: I've got a decent handle on forms now (I think). I'm able to add an action to an edit form that redirects to a parent object, for example. But I can't seem to figure out how to remove the default add button. Any suggestions?01:09
WebMavenI mean, the default 'Appy' button.01:09
WebMavenDarn. 'Apply'01:09
philiKON_WebMaven: make a different action01:11
philiKON_@action('Save')01:11
philiKON_def save(self, *kw)01:11
philiKON_...01:11
WebMavenHmm.01:12
WebMaventhat's very similar to my current code.01:13
WebMavenwhich creates a new action.01:14
WebMavenbut doesn't remove the old one.01:14
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WebMaven@form.action(_("Apply and Return"))01:14
WebMavendef handle_edit_view_action(self, action, data):01:15
WebMaven...01:15
philiKON_hmm, weird, it should remove it01:15
philiKON_anyway, you can alos poke at self.actions01:15
WebMavenis the difference the use of _()01:15
WebMaven?01:17
WebMavenOK, I guess I'll continue poking around.01:18
philiKON__() is the message id01:19
philiKON_factory01:20
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WebMavenphiliKON_: Ah! I figured it out...01:24
philiKON_WebMaven: and...?01:25
WebMavenphiliKON_: I was copying the default actions for my form (and delegating the actual save)01:25
WebMavenby copying to default_actions instead of actions, the default button is not rendered01:25
philiKON_cool01:26
* philiKON_ goes to bed01:26
WebMavenphiliKON_: guten nacht01:27
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WebMavenOk, I've got a 'breadcrumbs' viewlet that I want to appear only on certain objects, so I registered it for a marker interface.04:10
WebMavenBut now I want it to appear for certain add forms as well.04:10
WebMavenI tried marking the form as implementing the marker interface, but that seems to have no effect.04:11
WebMavenAnyone have suggestions?04:11
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WebMavennatea: Hey.04:15
WebMavennatea: how did the calendar sprint go?04:16
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WebMavenniemeyer: Hi.05:33
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Jell-O-Fishihi all14:00
Jell-O-Fishiis there a grid package similar to zc.table ? (row -> cell, cell-> field)14:00
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waglikhello!14:42
waglikI have less technical and more philosophical :) question today14:43
waglikhow would you build a non-content application for zope?14:43
waglikfor example: a Financial reporting app or user manager for Oracle14:44
waglikright now I'm doing it mostly by constructing main app object (which I add to ZODB) containing all the app logic (database access, etc.)14:45
waglikand lots of views14:45
waglikis there a better / more proper way to do it?14:46
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naroCan someone explain difference between zc.xxx and z3c.xxx packages in SVN, please ?14:58
baijumnaro, 'zc' stands for 'Zope Corporation' and z3c for 'Zope 3 Communitty'15:02
narobaijum: thank you15:03
baijumwelcome!15:03
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naro Is there another z3 libraries repository than cheeseshop, please ? I mean something like http://www.zope.org/Products15:23
wagliknaro: I think svn.zope.org is one of the largest repositories15:26
narowaglik: yes, but I mean something more filtered :) thanks anyway15:27
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philiKON__naro: what do you mean filtered?15:32
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narophiliKON__: plone.org/products contains a lot of producs, which someone tried to release or at least publish they exists. Collective SVN contains a lot of products, some of them are unusable, contains only one , two commits etc. I want to filter such products at least at the begining.15:36
naroI'd like to browse through products available for zope3 to get familiar with them, but I'm not sure if browsing through all products in SVN is the best way how to start with zope 3 product library.15:36
philiKON__true15:36
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naroI can say I know Collective, because I live with it a long time15:36
philiKONare you a zope committer?15:36
narono15:36
philiKONbecome one15:36
philiKONthen you can add setup.py files to all packages in svn.zope.org15:37
philiKONand register them with the cheeseshop15:37
narook, but I must know them15:37
philiKONand voila, the cheeseshop is our product repository15:37
philiKONhuh?15:37
naroyes, agree15:37
naroI can't distinguish if product is good/bad maintained/unmaintained yet15:38
philiKONthat's something else15:39
philiKONthat's evaluation work15:39
naroyep15:39
mgedminwould be nice to have, though15:39
srichterright, I still have to finish my code to provide that site; darn, it becomes more necessary than ever now15:40
mgedminmaybe something community-driven (register, get login, rate from 0 to 5, write comments/review)15:40
mgedminmaybe a checklist of what a good product is supposed to have15:40
philiKONthere are trove identifiers for this, i believe15:40
srichternaro: There was a lengthy proposal about that about a year ago; search for Zoep Software Certification PRocess (ZSCP)15:40
philiKONmgedmin: do you know cheesecake?15:40
mgedmin(documentation, setup.py, unit tests, functional tests, website)15:40
mgedminphiliKON: heard about it, haven't used it15:40
philiKONsrichter: i'm not convinced another site will help15:40
mgedminonly people can help15:41
philiKONexactly15:41
naroon plone.org/products I can see products, which are at least partly maintained. That's all. cheeseshop contains 21 products marked with zope3 label.15:42
philiKONthe cheeseshop also records Trove identifiers15:43
philiKONhttp://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi?%3Aaction=list_classifiers15:43
philiKONthe Development Status identifiers might be what you're lokoing for15:44
philiKONof course, people would have to fill those out15:44
philiKONhence, we need people15:44
naroin the other words. I want to know products which are available, because I want to start development of Zope3 application and I don't want to reinvent every piece of code.15:45
philiKONyes yes15:46
naro:)15:46
narook15:46
philiKONyou've said that 3 times now :)15:46
narosvn.zope.org is my friend15:46
narosorry15:46
philiKONi'm just trying to encourage you to contribute15:46
philiKONit doesnt' have to be svn.zope.org15:46
philiKONthe cheeseshop can do a lot, we just have to provide the metadata15:47
naroas soon as I find some product useful and not in cheeseshop, I will come back with this topic :)15:48
* baijum agree with philiKON, see this page has more packages http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi?:action=browse&c=515 but only few are marked as "Production Stable" http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi?:action=browse&c=5&c=51515:49
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WebMavenphiliKON: did you see this module?: http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/livecoding/17:12
philiKONWebMaven: the issue isn't with reloading itself17:13
philiKONthat works17:13
philiKONthe issue is with the zodb and its pickle cache17:13
WebMavenAh.17:14
philiKONi tried to explain this in the email17:15
philiKONi don't understand it completely myself thoug17:15
WebMavenwhat email?17:15
philiKONso perhaps i wasn't very good at the explanation part17:15
philiKONto grok-dev and zodb-dev17:15
philiKONWebMaven: or based on what were you showing me livecoding?17:15
WebMavenNot subscribed, I just saw your checkin.17:15
philiKONah, i see17:16
philiKONwell, the checking msg also points to that email17:16
philiKONeload actually works17:17
philiKONpersistent objects are just foobared17:17
WebMavenHah. I should have read the second checking message.17:17
WebMavenHmm.17:19
WebMavenThe right person to answer that question would be Tim. Is he still at ZC?17:19
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philiKONWebMaven: i don't think so17:19
philiKONi don't think he's involved into zodb at all anymore17:19
WebMavenDarn.17:20
philiKONi was hoping J1m would know more...17:20
WebMavenwho is the maintainer, then?17:20
philiKONor dieter17:20
philiKONJ1m is17:20
WebMavenDo you know if ZODB has cache invalidation tests?17:21
philiKONnope. haven't looked  yet17:21
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timteWhy is placeful authentication done both during traversal and after traversal?17:23
timteah, the objects are different17:26
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WebMavenphiliKON: there are cache tests, but (and I could be wrong) it doesn't look like any of them test explicit cache invalidation: http://svn.zope.org/ZODB/trunk/src/ZODB/tests/testCache.py17:31
J1mphiliKON, ?17:35
philiKONJ1m: seen my email to zodb-dev?17:35
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J1mOK, I responded.17:55
J1mYou won't like it. :)17:56
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philiKONJ1m: ok17:58
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philiKONJ1m: thanks for the response. i just replied18:12
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faassenphiliKON: making restarts faster is what I've been trying to do, but so far not much progress. it neeeds some profiling & analysis first I suspect.19:03
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philiKONfaassen: well, making restarts faster is nice, but it's not exactly what i was after19:06
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faassenphiliKON: what I mean is if we make those faster, we may accomplish some of the same goals of auto-refresh. something like turbogears has fast restarts and also auto-restarts.19:08
faassenphiliKON: you change some code, it just goes and restarts it for you.19:08
philiKONyes, i've been thinking about tha ttoo19:08
philiKONafter J1m last response, i think i'll look into that19:08
philiKONfaassen: it's a bit tricky since you'd like to keep the connection to the browser open19:09
faassenphiliKON: dunno.19:09
faassenphiliKON: why would you need to?19:09
faassenphiliKON: I mean,  stateless web and all.19:09
philiKONlet's say i'm developing an app and just changed something19:10
philiKONnow i go to back to the browser and hit refresh19:10
philiKONi then expect zope restarts itself and after having done so, it serves my browser with the new content19:11
faassenah, well, TG just tells me 'sorry, can't'19:11
faassenthat's nto a disaster.19:11
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faassenjust don't get a connection .it's clear enough what to do then. :)19:11
faassenyou just wait until the restart is really finished.19:11
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faassenessential is that the restart time is so short there is just no wait.19:12
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philiKONfaassen: ok19:12
philiKONfaassen: so when does it restart?19:12
philiKONthe first request after a modification?19:13
faassenphiliKON: no, right when you modify a file.19:13
philiKONaaah19:13
philiKONinteresting19:13
philiKONwow19:13
faassenphiliKON: I mean, it's stupid and silly and it just might work. if you have a syntax error, it won't manage to restart.19:13
faassenphiliKON: it uses some file monitoring, I think they reuse something.19:13
philiKONi see19:13
philiKONwell19:13
faassenphiliKON: the idea is just that restarts are FAST19:13
philiKONright19:13
philiKONbut still19:14
faassenphiliKON: Zope 3 restarts are decidedly non-fast.19:14
philiKONit sort of boils down to forcing me into a certain development model19:14
faassenphiliKON: you?19:14
philiKONe.g. saving when i think i got all the syntax errors taken care of19:14
philiKONbut sometimes i just save in the middle of something19:14
faassenphiliKON: well, no, I just save the same way as ever.19:14
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faassenphiliKON: and sometimes a syntax error hits the thing and I have to press the up key and enter again.19:14
philiKONi gotta try out TG19:14
faassenphiliKON: it hasn't really bothered me a lot.19:14
philiKONi don't want to go the terminal19:14
philiKONthat's my goal19:15
faassenhm, okay, well, it's not my goal. :)19:15
faassenI need to go to the terminal for my debugging sessions, for instance.19:15
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philiKONsure, but newbies don't usually use the pdb a lot19:15
faassensure, but they have to go the terminal to start up zope.19:15
faassenI mean, these are developers.19:16
philiKONsure, once19:16
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faassenTG absolutely *sucks* in the amount of nasty debugging messages it spews out.19:16
faassen'print' debugging is almost useless.19:16
faassenI want my app server to be quiet on the terminal unless I ask it to speak :)19:16
philiKONsure sure19:17
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faassenanyway, that's an aside.19:17
faassenconcerning the syntax error stuff, all I can say that I haven't had a lot of frustration with it yet.19:17
faassenI mean, with some stuff you're just WTF??!! all the time.19:17
faassenbut not with this behavior. it feels fairly decent.19:17
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philiKONok19:18
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philiKONfaassen: back to the discussion on #grok :)19:18
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d2mfaassen: on the Zope3 restart time - its about a second on my server20:12
philiKONd2m: well, yeah...20:12
philiKONhow often do you restart zope on your server?!?20:12
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d2msure, if you start a full bloated system (apidocs et al) it goes up to 4 secs20:13
philiKONno i mean, typically you want fast restarts on a dev machine20:13
philiKONfor all i care, restarts on a server could take half a minute20:13
philiKONbut for development i want something agile20:13
philiKONon my new laptop, it's 2 secs. if we could cut that in half, that'd be great20:14
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d2mphiliKON: e.g. time the second and consecutive startup times on a minimal dev sytem - i'm under a second with a small dev system20:23
d2meg, i've apidocs running on a different wsgi server and port20:24
philiKONi can't get below 2 secs20:25
philiKONwith a fairly minimal instance20:25
philiKONcore2 duo, osx20:25
philiKONi think osx accoutns for some of the slowdown20:25
d2mapidoc takes about 50% of the time20:25
philiKONmy python on osx has fewer pystones than python on windows *in parallels* (e.g. virtualized)20:25
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philiKONd2m: btw, a quick test here reveals that loading apidoc seems to make a difference of 15% in startup time, not anywhere near 100%21:14
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softdevrhi, anyone know of a doc explaining what the ZMI 'Make a site' link does?21:59
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srichterwhy don't you just look up the code?22:01
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srichterzope.app.component.browser (__init__.py), starting at line 11522:02
softdevrsrichter: where is the zmi app located in the installation?  I can trace code starting from there in the future22:08
srichtereverywhere in zope.app.[modulename].browser22:08
srichtersomeof it is also directly in zope.app.rotterdam22:09
srichterif I would not have guessed the the location of the code, I would have searched all ZCML files for the string "Make a site"22:09
srichterwhich gets you the menu entry, which points to the page directive, which points to the class22:10
srichterdarn, if I would have a full-text index in APIDOC, then you could do this there too22:10
softdevryeah, would be nice!22:11
softdevrthanks for the tip22:11
srichternp22:11
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zenwrylyis there a way to use a generator function (IE, using "yeild") as a zope.schema source?22:26
zenwrylyI'm a little unclear on when the generator function is called to return the generator object22:27
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