IRC log of #zope3-dev for Wednesday, 2007-05-02

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benjiif indented == demented, then I applaud jodok's turning of J1m's psycopathy against him00:06
J1mYou can't turn it against me.00:07
J1mIt only entertains me.00:07
benjiI forgot, you're imune to sanity.00:07
J1mThat's why benji will never make me stop.00:08
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rocky|awaydoes anyone know ... is there anything zope3 does to ensure that returns a datetime instance with a proper tzinfo set ?01:12
J1mI don't think there is anything it can do.01:12
rocky|awaybecause i'm looking at some code in someone's formlib form that does time_zone.normalize( but i don't possibly see how that would work01:13
* J1m wants to switch to star dates01:13
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rocky|awaysince doesn't have tzinfo01:13
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srichterrocky|away: no this will probably not work; the rule of thumb is to always store dates in UTC01:16
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rocky|awaysrichter: the code in question is in lovely.tag.browser.tag01:16
srichterthen my suspicion is that time_zone.normalize does exactly that01:17
* J1m wonders if time_zone.normalize should fail or at least warn if it gets a datetime wo a time zone01:17
srichterit probably looks at the server timezone and converts the datetime to utc01:17
J1mThat sounds excessively magic.01:17
rocky|awaywell, time_zone is trying to be looked up via idatetime.ITZInfo adapter lookup, and if that fails it simply uses pytz.UTC01:18
rocky|awaypytz.UTC.normalize() barfs on any datetime that doesn't have a tzinfo01:18
rocky|awayand... does not have any timezone01:18
J1mThat's good.01:18
rocky|awayright, but makes me wonder how this code ever worked01:18
srichterit probably doesn't or someone provided an adapter that does some magic liek I said01:19
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rockydoes anyone know if zope provides the ability to guess what the currently-running-server's timezone is?15:00
rockyperhaps via pytz or something15:00
rockyhmm... DateTime seems to be able to figure it out... hmm15:02
rockybah forget it, didn't realize time.tzname gave it to me15:03
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TheuniphiliKON: ping15:30
TheuniI'm wondering about using the pluggable authentication utility as a global utility.15:30
TheuniI stumbled over something that I'm not sure is intentional.15:30
philiKONum, ok15:31
Theunithe beforeTraversal hook needs an IAuthentication utility that *must* return an unauthenticated principal15:31
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TheuniHowever, the interface says it *may* return None.15:31
TheuniPAU always returns None for the unauthenticatedPrincipal.15:31
TheuniIn a normal case this ends up using the unauthenticated principal from an earlier IAuthentication utility.15:32
TheuniHowever, if it's a root utility, the request.principal becomes none and dies.15:32
TheuniSo the question I have is:15:32
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TheuniCan request.principal be None instead of an unauthenticated principal and should other code cope with this or should the first IAuthentication utility always return an unauthenticated principal.15:33
philiKONi'm puzzled by the fact that the interface permits None15:34
TheuniThat's correct though.15:34
philiKONi think the PAU should try to return the unauthenticated principal if possible15:34
TheuniIt allows an IAuthentication utility to not return a principal which results in the traversal to use the previous principal.15:34
philiKONi see15:34
philiKONok, that makes sense15:34
TheuniIf it does return an unauthenticated principal, then this cascade doesn't work.15:34
TheuniIMHO it should be configurable to some extent.15:35
philiKONwell, i guess a RootPAU needs to special-case this for the unauthenticated principal15:35
TheuniIn the case that it is a root utility it definitely doesn't make sense.15:35
TheuniThought so.15:35
* Theuni takes a look at IRequest though15:35
TheuniHmm. IRequest doesn't tell whether the principal can be None.15:36
TheuniMost code assumes that it never is None.15:36
philiKONi think it shouldn't be None15:36
TheuniWell. Then we need two things:15:36
Theunia) a rootPAU and a slightly different interfaces for authentication utilities that work at the root.15:37
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philiKON(i don't see why we need another interface)15:37
TheuniWell. Right. We don't.15:37
TheuniThe publication treats the None case as 'Unauthorized'.15:38
TheuniWhich is *very* interesting15:38
Theunibecause this will always die15:38
Theunibecause Unauthorize expects the principal not to be none.15:38
Theunibut it may be raisen before the principal is ever set15:38
Theunisooooo ... there are legal cases where request.principal is None15:38
Theunior we forbid that a root authentication utility can return None as the unauthenticated principal.15:39
philiKONi think that's a sensible interpretation15:39
philiKONwhich means that i guess we do need another interface15:39
TheuniHmm. Looking at that code also tells me that the transaction must begin much earlier15:39
TheuniphiliKON: another reason why this sounds right, is that we have to places asking for authentication utilities15:40
Theunia) beforeTraversal and b) _maybePlaceful...()15:40
Theuniand they have slightly different semantics.15:40
philiKONwell, not slightly15:40
philiKONbeforeTraversal happens once15:40
philiKONbefore everything15:40
TheuniHere is another comment: raise Unauthorized # If there's no default principal15:40
philiKONmaybePlaceful happens after each traversal step15:40
Theunii meant different semantics for a single call ;)15:41
Theunihow they work with iauthentication15:41
philiKONi see15:41
* Theuni detects: Nobody every created a different root authentication utility or they didn't care.15:41
* philiKON assumes the former15:42
TheuniI wonder whether we can get the zodbless patch into Zope 3.415:42
Theuniwe have two days to go for a merge on the trunk15:42
philiKONit's a bit convoluted15:42
philiKONbut in principle i'm +115:42
philiKONwe should get jinty to merge it15:42
TheuniI looked at the patch and it seems reasonable. However, we should write tests before merging it.15:43
TheuniI think I'll do that now.15:43
TheuniI could really use that.15:43
TheuniHmm. beta for tomorrow. I better get started.15:44
TheuniI wonder whether J1m took a look at the patch already.15:45
* J1m catches up ...15:45
Theunitwo issues at hand: one was the semantics of IAuthentication as a global utility, the other was the zodbless patch that jinty provided.15:46
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J1mI think any major patch for 3.4 would be really silly.15:48
J1mThe goal of 3.4 is to continue the past releases because we haven't quite got out act tohether with eggs.15:48
J1mThe goal of 3.4 is to continue the past releases because we haven't quite got our act together with eggs.15:49
J1mTheuni, request.principal should not be None.15:49
J1mimo, that would be a bug.15:49
J1mzodb-less zope should just be a package/buildout that gets releases like anything else.15:50
J1mI don't see why it should be tied to 3.4 in any way.15:50
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TheuniOk. Let's talk about the request first.15:50
J1mI'm really out of touch with our eggification efforts. :/15:51
TheuniI derive the following todos for me for getting request.principal right:15:51
J1mI hope to get caught up a DZUG if not sooner. :)15:51
TheuniThe global/root authentication utility must not return None as the unauthenticated principal.15:51
TheuniActually that seems like the only todo.15:51
J1mBTW, this is configurable through the publication object.15:52
TheuniAs a side note: I think transaction.begin() should be done immediately at the beginning of beforeTraversal()15:52
J1mor, alternatively, the publication could choose to provide one if it doesn't.15:52
J1mOr even look up an independent factory.15:52
TheuniDunno what's better.15:52
J1mI wish we had made the publisher look more like the bobo publisher.15:53
J1mtoo late now.15:53
J1mI've been working on some monitoring code that would probably have been cleaber if I had some more hook points.15:53
J1mI suggest decoupling this issue from the 3.4 release.15:54
J1mI'm not sure you coupled it though.15:54
J1mSo perhaps ignore the previous remark. :)15:54
TheuniAlright. I can ignore zodbless for now too. Would have been nice.15:55
TheuniI'm undecided for which way to go with the unauthenticated principal though15:55
J1mSure, it still is, just don't tie it to 3.4.15:55
TheuniThe patch is intrusive so decoupling it from the core is hard ...15:55
J1mIt would be great to see some kind of release of zodb-less zope based on the new way.15:55
Theunibut we don't have to merge it now.15:56
J1mThen the patch is very wrong.15:56
J1mBad patch Bad bad patch.15:56
J1mAll you should need to to replace the publication object.15:56
Theuniah. he extended the existing publication instead of replacing.15:56
J1mif anything else is needed, then there is probably a bug somewhere else.15:57
J1mA more bobonic publication would probably support this better. :)15:57
* Theuni points the discussion back to the question of the principal.15:57
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* Theuni gets a coffee. if nobody objects he then will introduce rootauthentication utilities.15:59
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ignasrootauthentication utilities?16:13
Theuninew interface: IRootAuthentication. Requires that unauthenticatedPrincipal never returns None16:14
J1mI don't think that is needed.16:15
TheuniThat's why I was trying to ask which way to implement the principal issue.16:15
Theunis/implement/get rid of/16:16
J1mYou have lots of choices.16:16
TheuniSure. That was one of those I offered. Nobody objected. ;)16:16
J1m- Change the publication to use an unauthenticated user factory16:16
J1m- Change pau to return an unauthenticated principle.16:17
J1m- Don't use a pau as a root auth util :)16:17
TheuniThe first choice seems ok, the second would kill existing behaviour that people rely on.16:17
TheuniThe third would make me abandon my existing work ;)16:17
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TheuniI think using a factory is probably the cleanest solution.16:18
J1msounds like you prefer door #1.16:18
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rockydobee: ping16:23
dobeerocky: pong16:26
TheuniJ1m: If I got those factories right, then an IUnauthenticatedPrincipalFactory would be adapting a request or nothing. Which one makes more sense to you?16:27
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J1mI expect it to be a utility that is called without arguments.16:30
TheuniAh. Ok. That works as well of course.16:30
J1mI suppose it could also be an adapter that adapts nothing. :)16:30
Theuniisn't that what a utility is?16:30
J1mabsolutely not.16:31
rockydobee: looking through lovely.tag which you seemd to have a hand in...  have you noticed that on the edit form for tags that if you say only add 1 new tag than the previous tags are added again to the tag frequency counter?16:31
philiKONa utility is pre-instantiated16:31
J1mA utility is a component that is looked up by interface.16:31
philiKONand an adapter isn't?16:31
* rocky wonders what kind of funky adapters J1m writes16:31
TheuniI was looking at the code and they're using various forms of adaptation so I was trying to extrapolate a pattern ... ;)16:31
J1man adapter is an object that is computed to satisfy an inteface.16:31
J1mAdaptation always involved computation.16:32
J1meven if the computation leads to returning an existing object.16:32
rockybtw anyone here read pje's pep 3124 for py3k dealing with interfaces/adapters/overloading/aspects ?16:32
J1mUtilities are always preexisting objects.16:32
rockyJ1m: that's a very good distinction btw, never really looked at it that way before16:33
benjiIOW, utilities are just arbitrary things that can be looked up by interface and name.16:34
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TheuniHmm. The default unauthenticated principal is an interesting thing.16:35
ignashmm, who if anyone is maintaining ZODB egg?16:36
* rocky thought pje's pep on interfaces was pretty interesting -- a scaled down version of zope3 stuff16:36
J1mignas, I am16:37
ignasJ1m: if you install ZODB as an egg in some specific directory (not your system python path)16:37
ignasrunzeo for example - works16:38
ignasworks as well16:38
ignasbut if you mkzeoinstance16:38
ignasthe zeo scripts (zeoctl) in the new bin directory16:38
ignasonly knows where to find the ZODB egg16:40
ignasand can't find other eggs16:40
ignasmaybe it would be possible to add some parameter like "EGG_PATH" to the script16:40
* ignas has no idea, but i will have similar problems with schooltool16:40
ignasand would like to see how these should be fixed ;)16:41
J1mIsn't schooltool moving to zc.buildout?16:41
TheuniJ1m: Any idea what the default unauthenticated principal could use as an id?16:41
ignasJ1m: no, not at the moment16:42
J1mTheuni, probably something based on it's module __name__.16:42
J1mignas, ah, I though it was.16:42
J1mignas, I have as low an opinion of mkzeoinstance as I do of mkzopeinstance. :)16:43
J1mYou might submit a bug report.16:43
J1mI would deal with the report in whatever way involves the least work for me, which is likely to be something along the lines of "mkzeoinstance only works if ZODB is installed into site-packages.".16:44
dobeerocky: hm, dunno - well that's a bug in this case i guess16:47
J1mIf it is easy to fix this otherwise, I might be willing to.16:47
J1mignas, you might consider using buildout just to install your zeo server.16:48
ignasthe question is - whether i want to have schooltool as an egg or not16:49
ignasthe upside of this being that any user can install schooltool-SVN easily16:50
ignasthe downside - i have yet to see an application deployed as an egg16:50
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J1mignas, we deploy applications using eggs all the time.17:12
ignasJ1m: not using eggs, but packaged as eggs17:12
J1mAnd we've been deploying applications using buildout for years.17:12
ignaslike easy_install schooltool17:12
J1meggs aren't really for deploying applications.17:13
ignasand then - it magically works17:13
ignashmm, why not?17:13
ignaszeo with mkzeoinstance seems to work ...17:13
J1mZODB, and even mkzeoinst should work just fine with easy_install.17:13
J1mas long as you do things the way easy_install wants you to.17:14
J1mbuildout gives you more flexibility than easy_install.17:14
J1mWe (zc) don't like installing into system Python.17:14
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benjiand as long as you don't want to do anything easy_install doesn't handle (e.g., set up cron jobs)17:14
J1mSo we have a buildout recipe for ZEO that:17:15
J1m- sets up configuratiopn files17:15
J1m- sets up system rc scripts17:15
J1m- sets up a pack cron job17:15
J1m- sets up log rotation17:15
J1mIt is slightly red-hat specific.17:15
J1mI'm sure it would be easy, if not trivial, to make it work with debian and other distros.17:16
J1mAnd, unlike mkzeiinst, it actually puts files where system admins want them. :)17:16
ignasadmins will be installing schooltol through apt-get install ...17:17
ignasbut we need an easy way for people to try out schooltool17:17
ignasbuildout does not seem easy ;)17:17
J1mIt seems as easy to me as a regular Zope checkout.17:17
J1mpython2.4 bootstrap.py17:18
J1mIf you provide a complete buildout.cfg for them, that's all they have to do.17:18
J1mAnd, of course, you could provide a wrapper script that automates those 2 commands.17:19
J1mHeck, you could even provide a make file. :)17:20
benjiboo, hiss17:20
* Theuni waves autoconf at benji 17:20
ignaswe have a makefile ;)17:21
benjiI acually don't mind autoconf, but that's mostly because I don't have to use it. ;)17:21
ignasit works17:21
ignaswithout buildout even17:21
ignasbut it still seems too complicated at the moment17:21
ignasfor users17:21
benjiand make doesn't work to well on Windows17:21
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ignasJ1m: schooltool users do not map with Zope3 users that much :/17:21
J1mYou can wrap whatever UI you want around buildout.17:22
ignasthe last couple of users were only competent enough to follow a list of precise steps17:22
* Theuni must open his eyes wider.17:22
J1mThere's no need to expose buildout to your users if you don't want to.17:22
ignasone of them managed to break his svn checkout 3 times17:23
ignasby doing "nothing" ;)17:23
* J1m is tired of arguing with ignas about this.17:23
ignasJ1m: i understand that I can use buildout to solve my problem, but i am not sure it is the best solution17:24
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rockyTheuni: you wouldn't happen to have an example code/zcml for setting up a traversal adapter in zope 2.9 would you?17:29
* Theuni shows his empty pockets17:30
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rockyhehe ... i'm asking you because i see an irc log online (via google) that shows a converation between you and philiKON describing your experiences setting up traverse stuff (he explained difference between ITraversable and IPublishTraverse)17:31
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Theunithat's probably not in zope 2.9 ;)17:32
rockyThe|unii try to hook into traversal with five in Zope 2.9.417:33
rockythat's me quoting you :)17:33
* Theuni runs17:38
timterocky: I tried that too, with no luck. I think you need to do it the old bobo traverse way. It's fixed in five 1.5 I think.17:38
Theunithat's almost a year ago17:38
Theuniwhat the hell was i doing there?!?17:38
rockylol @ Theuni17:38
rockytimte: right now i'm looking to see how FiveTraversable does stuff17:39
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Theunirocky: if your read through that complete log, then you should find what you need17:40
Theunithat's what my belly tells me17:40
Theuniand my belly also tells me to get an apple17:40
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TheuniJ1m: btw. did you agree that i can move the transaction.begin() before the root global authentication?18:23
J1mNo, I was hoping that you would forget so I didn't have to look.18:24
* J1m looks18:25
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J1mTheuni, that looks good to me.18:27
* Theuni scratches his head for testing that ...18:27
J1mYou could create an insane auth that modifies the database during authentication. :)18:28
TheuniSomething along those lines.18:28
TheuniThe reason I want to move it is because I have a utility that actually does talk to the database. ALthough it only reads it, I feel like it should be in the same transaction.18:29
TheuniWhat happens if transaction.begin() is called twice btw?18:29
J1ma begin implies and abort.18:29
J1mtransaction boundaries are otherwise implicit.18:29
J1ma commit or about ends the current transaction and implicitly begins a new one.18:30
Theuniright. what's the rule on keeping references to objects from earlier transactions?18:30
Theunithey will just join the new transaction, right?18:31
rockydobee: does the tagging engine in lovely.tag do any security checks? i mean when returning getItems() does it discern what items you're allowed to have access to?18:31
J1myes, object references and transaction boundaries have nothing to do with each other.18:31
dobeerocky: no18:31
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J1mwhat you really want to avoid is keeping object refs after a connection has been closed.18:32
Theuniso the current situation would really only be annoying if you had a "crazy" authentication utility that does modify the objects during authentication18:32
Theuniotherwise the begin would just implicitly abort() the former transaction but the user object that was loaded will be fine.18:33
J1mOr if you had a left over uncommitted transaction from some previous activity, which should be very very unlikely.18:34
Theuniok. i'll put that in the tracker for now, my time is running out here.18:35
Theunisomeone removed zope.index from the checkout18:36
J1myes, fred sent a note about that.18:37
J1mThere should be an external now.18:37
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Theuniah, maybe subversion fooled me18:39
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Theunijupp. it stumbled over the directory that was still there.18:39
* Theuni hits subversion on the stack18:40
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* Theuni grumbles. test failures from zope.index.18:43
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* J1m is sure tests pass on a clean checkout18:43
J1mNot that I've tried. :)18:43
Theunihrn. gotta look later. gotta run.18:43
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andrew_mhow can i turn a _p_oid into an int? I assume the root object ID ('\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x01') is 1?19:11
J1mIf this is just for visual inspection, use:19:12
J1mimport zodb.utils19:12
J1mimport ZODB.utils19:13
J1mprint ZODB.utils.u64(oid)19:13
J1mYou shouldn't use OIDs in application code.19:13
J1mThey aren't required to be serialized integers.19:14
andrew_mi see, thanks. i might use object paths instead as IDs.19:17
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J1mI hope you're aware of the intid framework,19:23
andrew_mJ1m: hmm, no. i'm trying to use as little of zope as possible due to its complexity19:27
J1mThen why are you here? You'd rather solve a problem yourself that reuse an existing solution?19:28
andrew_mwell, zope has some great, simple features (persistence, http server, object views)19:29
ccomb...and intid :)19:30
rockyandrew_m: i would argue that zope3 the library/framework is much better than zope3 the app server :)19:30
andrew_mrocky: can be. but you need to invest a lot of time and effort to dig into it19:30
ccombI did it, and it's worth doing it19:31
andrew_mafter a year of zope3 development i find myself fading out more and more of zope depended stuff19:32
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ccombthat's good news, zope itself is becoming less and less zope dependant19:36
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