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| pcardune | to anyone out there (like srichter) is it bad practice to make objects provide marker interfaces dynamically (say, on traversal)? | 02:08 |
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| johnlr2 | http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/65287 | 04:24 |
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| tjs | so I have a zope3 instance with 27k users, and I want to remove a user catalog and recreate it through the zmi | 08:03 |
| tjs | but when I try to add it again, the browser times out | 08:03 |
| tjs | which it seems then reverts the transaction | 08:04 |
| tjs | is there some sort of work around for this sort of thing | 08:05 |
| huajie | tjs: I have no idea, but why remove the old catalog ? | 08:09 |
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| tjs | huajie: I've added a new index | 08:12 |
| tjs | in the __init__ | 08:12 |
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| Cripps | srichter: why is there no configure.zcml for z3c.rml? Is it because it's auto-generated using setup.py, or some other reason? | 13:44 |
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| GuestBaha24 | salut | 14:01 |
| GuestBaha24 | jai télécharger warcraft mais sa marche pas | 14:01 |
| mgedmin | oh really? | 14:03 |
| GuestBaha24 | salut | 14:04 |
| GuestBaha24 | y a un francai? | 14:04 |
| Cripps | mgedmin: I think he's lying ;) | 14:05 |
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| CrippsFX | has anyone seen Stephan around lately? | 16:13 |
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| CrippsFX | I have python installed on my box as an RPM, but I also have a python instance installed specifically for zope (in /opt/Python) ... the directions for installing setuptools will automagically detect the "running" version of python ... which means it'll probably find my distro's python ... how do I make it find my "Zope" python instead? | 16:23 |
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| benji | CrippsFX: I /think/ it uses whatever python it was run with, so run setuptools with your /opt/ Python and setuptools will install eggs into it | 16:41 |
| benji | (and then start using zc.buildout and you won't have to worry about this stuff any more :) | 16:41 |
| CrippsFX | benji: yep ... I see... I had to install ez_install and setuptools (using the eggs and my 'Zope' python install), and then used setup.py to install z3c.rml ... seems to have worked okay ... | 16:44 |
| CrippsFX | now I'm wondering why it took me so long to figure this out ;) | 16:44 |
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| CrippsFX | yish. I'm thinkin that z3c.rml needs a meta-configure.zcml so that I can get the browser:rml2pdf directive to work :/ | 16:48 |
| CrippsFX | ack ... that's an odd place for it to be ... the meta.zcml for rml is in the pdftemplate package :/ | 16:50 |
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| CrippsFX | hey paul. | 16:51 |
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| srichter | CrippsFX: z3c.rml is a package that can be used without the Zope application server | 16:54 |
| srichter | CrippsFX: z3c.pdftemplate is the integration into Zope 3 | 16:54 |
| CrippsFX | srichter: yeah, I'm sorta starting to figure out how you did them. | 16:54 |
| CrippsFX | srichter: I've managed to get z3c.rml properly installed ... now I'm trying to figure out exactly how to do the same with pdftemplate so that it will export all the metaconfiguration and such. | 16:55 |
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| srichter | CrippsFX: if you do not use completely egg-based development yet, just checkout the trunk into Zope3Instance/lib/python | 16:56 |
| CrippsFX | srichter: and then manually do the package-include configures ... | 16:57 |
| CrippsFX | kk. | 16:57 |
| srichter | actually, the package should contain a SETUP.cfg file which should isntall the slug when typing make | 16:59 |
| CrippsFX | ahh. | 16:59 |
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| srichter | but I am using custom setups and I am not sure this still works with a regular release | 17:00 |
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| CrippsFX | yeah, I'm getting a traceback when I try to do bin/runzope | 17:01 |
| CrippsFX | zope.configuration.xmlconfig.ZopeXMLConfigurationError: File "/home/acripps/zope/etc/site.zcml", line 3.2-3.50 | 17:01 |
| CrippsFX | ZopeXMLConfigurationError: File "/home/acripps/zope/etc/package-includes/z3c.pdftemplate-meta.zcml", line 1.0-1.54 | 17:01 |
| CrippsFX | ConfigurationError: ('Invalid value for', 'package', 'ImportError: Module z3c has no global pdftemplate') | 17:01 |
| CrippsFX | sorry abiout pasting, that's more than I thought it was. | 17:01 |
| srichter | basically, pdftemplate is not in the z3c package | 17:02 |
| srichter | maybe the wrong z3c package is picked up? | 17:02 |
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| CrippsFX | hm ... I only have z3c.pdftemplate in my Zope instance. | 17:03 |
| CrippsFX | well, that's the only z3c package I have. | 17:03 |
| CrippsFX | ... but there is z3c.rml in my python instance's site-packages directory | 17:04 |
| suse_joe | Hi! I'm trying to set up session (cookie) based authentication in a Zope 3.3.1 instance. I've done that before in Zope 3.2. | 17:05 |
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| suse_joe | But in the 3.3.1 installation I have (directly from zope.org) I don't have PersistentSessionDataContainer and CookieClientIdManager. | 17:06 |
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| CrippsFX | srichter: okay ... Imma stop playing around with the pdf stuff for now since someone's finished something that allows me to work on another component ... but if I need help again later, I'm coming back to you ;) | 17:07 |
| suse_joe | Has anything changed in the way one sets up session-based auth? | 17:08 |
| srichter | suse_joe: not since zope.app.authentication was written; some component setup is different now, but the old code should still work | 17:12 |
| suse_joe | srichter: What could be the reason that I don't see PersistentSessionDataContainer and CookieClientIdManager in the UI? | 17:13 |
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| srichter | mmh, no idea; I am not using the UI to setup my components; we are always using the Python API. | 17:15 |
| srichter | but you should still see all contents within your PAU | 17:15 |
| srichter | it's jhust a container view | 17:15 |
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| suse_joe | Seems something got broken. The code is still there, so I'm not missing anything. | 17:16 |
| srichter | the thing is that pretty much nobody uses the ZMI to do component setup and the ZMI is heavily undertested with ftests | 17:17 |
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| suse_joe | I'd actually prefer doing this from Python. But I haven't found a step-by-step description. I did the first application about a year ago and now have started with grok again. But AFAICS there is no grok way of setting up PAU yet. | 17:18 |
| suse_joe | I guess just removing the non-tested parts of the ZMI would improve things. :-) | 17:19 |
| srichter | I just tried the UI and least when doing things from scratch it works | 17:20 |
| suse_joe | You mean you can add a PersistentSessionDataContainer? | 17:21 |
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| lisppaste6 | srichter pasted "Add authentication utility to site configurator plugin" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/43465 | 17:22 |
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| srichter | well, I guess it is called "Session Credentials Plugin" now | 17:23 |
| srichter | mmh, that might have been a change | 17:24 |
| srichter | Jim once combined a couple of plugins into one | 17:24 |
| srichter | but see the paste for an example to setup the authentication programmatically | 17:24 |
| suse_joe | Thanks. I'll try that one. "Session Credentials Plugin": No, I have that one in the 3.2 instance, too. But to work it needs a session data container. | 17:25 |
| suse_joe | And that's the one I can not add in 3.3.1 ;-) | 17:25 |
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| srichter | suse_joe: oh, right | 17:27 |
| srichter | this is outside the PAU | 17:27 |
| suse_joe | srichter: I'm still hate-loving Z3. So much that is just way too complicated. But grok shows that the basic bits and pieces can be used to build something easy to use on top. :-). | 17:27 |
| suse_joe | srichter: Yes, outside. | 17:27 |
| srichter | yes, in my trunk version the session data container is added automatically | 17:27 |
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| srichter | I can add "Persistent Session Data Container"s in the turnk | 17:28 |
| srichter | it works there | 17:28 |
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| srichter | I personally do not like grok that much; wrapping stuff is not good design for me | 17:29 |
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| srichter | btw, you should checkout z3c.formdemo to see some examples on how to get started on a Zope 3 app | 17:30 |
| suse_joe | srichter: I have the formdemo demo installed, too. | 17:31 |
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| suse_joe | srichter: But it's a separate Zope 3 instance. I still have to understand all that egg magic. When I looked at Zope last time there were no eggs yet. | 17:32 |
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| srichter | this is the first egg setup that I made as well | 17:33 |
| srichter | You can checkout the packages into your working Zope 3 instance/installation | 17:33 |
| srichter | that's hwo all my current projects still work | 17:34 |
| suse_joe | srichter: To be successful in recruiting less experienced users Z3 needs something like grok. Quite a few people are using Ruby on Rails at SUSE now. If I show those guys how to do a simple app in Zope 3 without grok I will lose them in the first couple of minutes, just because of all the different bits and pieces they have to do to just hook up a simple view to a class. | 17:35 |
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| srichter | I have gone away from comparing Zope to PHP or RoR; it's not a good fit | 17:37 |
| srichter | the far more interesting comparison is J2EE and Zope 3 | 17:37 |
| suse_joe | About z3c.form: I've just looked at the demos and some code so far. Looked solid, but I'm still looking for something more high-level, like I was looking for five years ago. | 17:38 |
| srichter | because they work on the same level of complexity and fulfilling real world needs | 17:38 |
| srichter | you should talk to Dominik Huber; his ideas remind me a lot of yours | 17:38 |
| suse_joe | Whenever I need to do forms I have to do a lot of work (custom widgets that do dates and German numbers right, lots of CSS and template work to make things pretty etc.) to get things really useable. That hasn't changed since Formulator. | 17:39 |
| srichter | he has built a huge suite of stuff that attempts to do plug'n'play type of things via ZCML | 17:39 |
| srichter | (content types are initially empoty and are just marked up, etc) | 17:39 |
| suse_joe | srichter: Any links? | 17:39 |
| srichter | nothing is public as far as I know | 17:39 |
| srichter | you would have to contact him directly | 17:39 |
| suse_joe | Real world needs: I have real world needs, too. ;-) I know that Rails, TurboGears, Django etc. do not cover half as many areas Zope does cover. | 17:41 |
| suse_joe | That's why I have always come back. | 17:41 |
| suse_joe | But I feel that like when I did Kontentor with you years back we need more high-level components that work out of the box and are easy to re-use. | 17:42 |
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| suse_joe | Red Hat has used Plone (!) for their new cluster management tool. I guess that was for the very reason that plain Zope2 (and even more Zope3) is not high-level enough for them. | 17:44 |
| srichter | and I think we have those components; they are in svn.zope.org; anything that I ever did that was reusable for another project is in svn.zope.org | 17:44 |
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| srichter | the problem with high level components is that I can never reuse them in another project | 17:44 |
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| srichter | projects are just too different | 17:44 |
| srichter | at least in my world | 17:44 |
| suse_joe | I'm not proposing that Zope 3 becomes another CMS-like toolkit all by itself. But it finally needs such a beast on top. | 17:45 |
| srichter | I imagine that Zope Corp. being in the CMS buisiness has developed high-level components that represent their know-how, for example | 17:45 |
| srichter | right, so if you are in the CMS business, you can definitely do a lot more | 17:45 |
| srichter | (I have never worked on a CMS-like system.) | 17:46 |
| srichter | ....with Zope 3 that is | 17:46 |
| srichter | all that said, I think you brought up some important areas that need improvement; I totally agree that number formatting in forms and internationalized datetime widgets should exist | 17:47 |
| suse_joe | Sure, projects differ a lot. But whenever I come back to web programming I feel that it's still so primitive compared to what you get from Desktop toolkits like Qt/KDE. | 17:47 |
| srichter | the internationalized number thing I will put on my list for z3c.form | 17:48 |
| timte | suse_joe: plone is on its way to become that beast :) | 17:48 |
| suse_joe | ;-) | 17:48 |
| srichter | Qt/KDE - yes, it there would be more pyQt/pyKDE jobs, I would leave the Web in a second | 17:49 |
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| suse_joe | I still hate Plone. Maybe it will be different on Z3. But back in the old days the CMF/Plone stack was terrible code. Even though the results that you can produce were pretty impressive. | 17:49 |
| srichter | I have come to realize an important difference between Desktop toolkits and the Web; | 17:49 |
| srichter | 1. Web technologies suck (CSS is just aweful) | 17:49 |
| srichter | 2. The web is ruled by prettiness and designers | 17:50 |
| srichter | thus, conforming frameworks, such as Qt/KDE, are not accepted by the Web community | 17:50 |
| srichter | if it would, we would not have as many JS frameworks out there trying to define common UI sets | 17:51 |
| srichter | pyjamas and GWT looks promising though | 17:51 |
| timte | I would love to do some pyQt/pyKDE too | 17:52 |
| suse_joe | It's basically always the same problem domain I would like to solve with the framework I'm looking for: Web _applications_ rather than web_sites_. E.g., right now I'm investigating how we could do a "Web YaST" right. | 17:52 |
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| srichter | uuh, that would be cool :-) | 17:53 |
| srichter | in that case pyjamas might look very attractive | 17:53 |
| suse_joe | One idea actually is using Witty (Wt), which is a C++ web framework based on Qt ideas. But we may run into exactly the problems you mentioned above. E.g. Wt will enforce widgets with a certain look. They can be styled, but it's still not as flexible as doing forms by hand in HTML/CSS. | 17:54 |
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| suse_joe | And of course using C++ for the web is early nineties. ;-) | 17:55 |
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| srichter | http://pyjamas.pyworks.org/ | 17:56 |
| suse_joe | Looks like pyjamas is similar in concept. | 17:56 |
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| suse_joe | I'll have a look. | 17:56 |
| srichter | on the other hand you will find that with Zope 3 you will be quickly developing severla UI patterns that you can easily reuse | 17:56 |
| srichter | Roger and I (as well as the Lovely Systems guys) have done extremely flexible UIs with the component architecture | 17:57 |
| suse_joe | The point with YaST is that it has it's own layout engine that then is rendered using Qt, GTK, or ncurses. So in theory all the web parts could be written in a generic way, so that all existing modules would just run in the web management console. | 17:58 |
| srichter | but there we developed patterns that would be hard for a high-level tool to integrate unless they totally emerge in it | 17:58 |
| srichter | in that case I think Zope 3 is well suited ;-) | 17:58 |
| suse_joe | The Z3 project I did (not for SUSE) was basically like the Monster job site, but for a closed community at a university. I had to do a lot of tweaking, but it was pretty impressive how I was able to do all the data modelling with schemas. | 18:00 |
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| suse_joe | So I've seen some of the strengths of Z3 already. | 18:01 |
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| srichter | right, schemas work very well | 18:02 |
| srichter | and with the new form frameworks it hangs together pretty nicely | 18:02 |
| srichter | another strength is definitely UI flexibility | 18:02 |
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| srichter | in the address book demo I just barely scraped the surface of what we do in customer projects | 18:03 |
| srichter | such as table item selection opens edit windows on the right; adding addresses within a form, etc. | 18:03 |
| suse_joe | The calculator, is that running the calculations server-side or in the browser? | 18:05 |
| srichter | server side | 18:05 |
| suse_joe | JSON? | 18:06 |
| srichter | no, fast page reloads :-) | 18:06 |
| suse_joe | That's another option indeed. :-) | 18:06 |
| srichter | all the demos are purposefully not written using any AJAXy like things | 18:06 |
| * pcardune listens in | 18:06 | |
| srichter | I hope that pcardune will have some of those demos in AJAX by the end of the summer | 18:07 |
| srichter | pcardune: I think the calculator we could almost do in the current state, no? | 18:07 |
| pcardune | yep | 18:07 |
| srichter | I guess we need JSON hooks still to talk to the server | 18:07 |
| srichter | but we are close | 18:07 |
| srichter | suse_joe: if you are going to EP, Paul can show you what he has | 18:08 |
| suse_joe | In the app I mentioned before I'm using some very ancient stuff that does the asynchronous communication via cookies. :-) Works on more browsers than anything else. :-) | 18:09 |
| srichter | huh, interesting | 18:10 |
| suse_joe | But it has limits. There is no generic data structure like in XML or JSON. | 18:10 |
| suse_joe | sricher: I'm not sure if I will be able to go to any of the Zope or Python conferences. My job is mainly business now. | 18:18 |
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| suse_joe | srichter: If you don't see my replies I have to register my nick first. | 18:24 |
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| xbeanx | This page needs some formatting consideration: http://wiki.zope.org/zope3/HowDoICreateAThreadsafeConnector/diff | 18:26 |
| srichter | suse_joe: you have to register first; I cannot see your replies | 18:26 |
| xbeanx | oh, nvm | 18:27 |
| xbeanx | it's the diff page .. *blush* | 18:27 |
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| MiUlEr_ | relas | 18:34 |
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| dennis__ | was there an easy way to make z3c.form use checkboxes for my boolean fields ? | 20:14 |
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| dennis__ | .customwidget = CustomWidgetFactory( checkbox.CheckBoxFieldWidget) doesn't .. | 20:23 |
| pcardune | dennis__: it's not customWidget? | 20:25 |
| dennis__ | oops i had .custom_widget, which I think is right, but customWidget doesn't do anything either | 20:26 |
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| dennis__ | but .custom_widget is a zope.formlib feature | 20:31 |
| pcardune | .customWidget follows zope naming convention | 20:32 |
| pcardune | oh wait, i think it is .customWidgetFactory | 20:32 |
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| dennis__ | 1119 ... fields['name'].widgetFactory = MyFieldWidget from form.txt | 20:35 |
| pcardune | ah | 20:36 |
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| hazmat | faassen, is it possible to have multiple hurry workflows active on a given object? | 20:42 |
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| faassen | hazmat: I don't think so, not without some more work to support it. | 20:46 |
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| hazmat | faassen, would you accept patches for hurry.workflow and z3.2 compatiblity? | 23:10 |
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