IRC log of #zope3-dev for Tuesday, 2007-06-26

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pcarduneto anyone out there (like srichter) is it bad practice to make objects provide marker interfaces dynamically (say, on traversal)?02:08
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tjsso I have a zope3 instance with 27k users, and I want to remove a user catalog and recreate it through the zmi08:03
tjsbut when I try to add it again, the browser times out08:03
tjswhich it seems then reverts the transaction08:04
tjsis there some sort of work around for this sort of thing08:05
huajietjs: I have no idea, but why remove the old catalog ?08:09
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tjshuajie: I've added a new index08:12
tjsin the __init__08:12
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Crippssrichter: why is there no configure.zcml for z3c.rml? Is it because it's auto-generated using, or some other reason?13:44
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GuestBaha24jai télécharger warcraft mais sa marche pas14:01
mgedminoh really?14:03
GuestBaha24y a un francai?14:04
Crippsmgedmin: I think he's lying ;)14:05
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CrippsFXhas anyone seen Stephan around lately?16:13
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CrippsFXI have python installed on my box as an RPM, but I also have a python instance installed specifically for zope (in /opt/Python) ... the directions for installing setuptools will automagically detect the "running" version of python ... which means it'll probably find my distro's python ... how do I make it find my "Zope" python instead?16:23
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benjiCrippsFX: I /think/ it uses whatever python it was run with, so run setuptools with your /opt/ Python and setuptools will install eggs into it16:41
benji(and then start using zc.buildout and you won't have to worry about this stuff any more :)16:41
CrippsFXbenji: yep ... I see... I had to install ez_install and setuptools (using the eggs and my 'Zope' python install), and then used to install z3c.rml ... seems to have worked okay ...16:44
CrippsFXnow I'm wondering why it took me so long to figure this out ;)16:44
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CrippsFXyish. I'm thinkin that z3c.rml needs a meta-configure.zcml so that I can get the browser:rml2pdf directive to work :/16:48
CrippsFXack ... that's an odd place for it to be ... the meta.zcml for rml is in the pdftemplate package :/16:50
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CrippsFXhey paul.16:51
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srichterCrippsFX: z3c.rml is a package that can be used without the Zope application server16:54
srichterCrippsFX: z3c.pdftemplate is the integration into Zope 316:54
CrippsFXsrichter: yeah, I'm sorta starting to figure out how you did them.16:54
CrippsFXsrichter: I've managed to get z3c.rml properly installed ... now I'm trying to figure out exactly how to do the same with pdftemplate so that it will export all the metaconfiguration and such.16:55
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srichterCrippsFX: if you do not use completely egg-based development yet, just checkout the trunk into Zope3Instance/lib/python16:56
CrippsFXsrichter: and then manually do the package-include configures ...16:57
srichteractually, the package should contain a SETUP.cfg file which should isntall the slug when typing make16:59
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srichterbut I am using custom setups and I am not sure this still works with a regular release17:00
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CrippsFXyeah, I'm getting a traceback when I try to do bin/runzope17:01
CrippsFXzope.configuration.xmlconfig.ZopeXMLConfigurationError: File "/home/acripps/zope/etc/site.zcml", line 3.2-3.5017:01
CrippsFX    ZopeXMLConfigurationError: File "/home/acripps/zope/etc/package-includes/z3c.pdftemplate-meta.zcml", line 1.0-1.5417:01
CrippsFX    ConfigurationError: ('Invalid value for', 'package', 'ImportError: Module z3c has no global pdftemplate')17:01
CrippsFXsorry abiout pasting, that's more than I thought it was.17:01
srichterbasically, pdftemplate is not in the z3c package17:02
srichtermaybe the wrong z3c package is picked up?17:02
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CrippsFXhm ... I only have z3c.pdftemplate in my Zope instance.17:03
CrippsFXwell, that's the only z3c package I have.17:03
CrippsFX... but there is z3c.rml in my python instance's site-packages directory17:04
suse_joeHi! I'm trying to set up session (cookie) based authentication in a Zope 3.3.1 instance. I've done that before in Zope 3.2.17:05
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suse_joeBut in the 3.3.1 installation I have (directly from I don't have PersistentSessionDataContainer  and CookieClientIdManager.17:06
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CrippsFXsrichter: okay ... Imma stop playing around with the pdf stuff for now since someone's finished something that allows me to work on another component ... but if I need help again later, I'm coming back to you ;)17:07
suse_joeHas anything changed in the way one sets up session-based auth?17:08
srichtersuse_joe: not since was written; some component setup is different now, but the old code should still work17:12
suse_joesrichter: What could be the reason that I don't see PersistentSessionDataContainer and CookieClientIdManager in the UI?17:13
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srichtermmh, no idea; I am not using the UI to setup my components; we are always using the Python API.17:15
srichterbut you should still see all contents within your PAU17:15
srichterit's jhust a container view17:15
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suse_joeSeems something got broken. The code is still there, so I'm not missing anything.17:16
srichterthe thing is that pretty much nobody uses the ZMI to do component setup and the ZMI is heavily undertested with ftests17:17
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suse_joeI'd actually prefer doing this from Python. But I haven't found a step-by-step description. I did the first application about a year ago and now have started with grok again. But AFAICS there is no grok way of setting up PAU yet.17:18
suse_joeI guess just removing the non-tested parts of the ZMI would improve things. :-)17:19
srichterI just tried the UI and least when doing things from scratch it works17:20
suse_joeYou mean you can add a PersistentSessionDataContainer?17:21
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lisppaste6srichter pasted "Add authentication utility to site configurator plugin" at
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srichterwell, I guess it is called "Session Credentials Plugin" now17:23
srichtermmh, that might have been a change17:24
srichterJim once combined a couple of plugins into one17:24
srichterbut see the paste for an example to setup the authentication programmatically17:24
suse_joeThanks. I'll try that one. "Session Credentials Plugin": No, I have that one in the 3.2 instance, too. But to work it needs a session data container.17:25
suse_joeAnd that's the one I can not add in 3.3.1 ;-)17:25
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srichtersuse_joe: oh, right17:27
srichterthis is outside the PAU17:27
suse_joesrichter: I'm still hate-loving Z3. So much that is just way too complicated. But grok shows that the basic bits and pieces can be used to build something easy to use on top. :-).17:27
suse_joesrichter: Yes, outside.17:27
srichteryes, in my trunk version the session data container is added automatically17:27
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srichterI can add "Persistent Session Data Container"s in the turnk17:28
srichterit works there17:28
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srichterI personally do not like grok that much; wrapping stuff is not good design for me17:29
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srichterbtw, you should checkout z3c.formdemo to see some examples on how to get started on a Zope 3 app17:30
suse_joesrichter: I have the formdemo demo installed, too.17:31
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suse_joesrichter: But it's a separate Zope 3 instance. I still have to understand all that egg magic. When I looked at Zope last time there were no eggs yet.17:32
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srichterthis is the first egg setup that I made as well17:33
srichterYou can checkout the packages into your working Zope 3 instance/installation17:33
srichterthat's hwo all my current projects still work17:34
suse_joesrichter: To be successful in recruiting less experienced users Z3 needs something like grok. Quite a few people are using Ruby on Rails at SUSE now. If I show those guys how to do a simple app in Zope 3 without grok I will lose them in the first couple of minutes, just because of all the different bits and pieces they have to do to just hook up a simple view to a class.17:35
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srichterI have gone away from comparing Zope to PHP or RoR; it's not a good fit17:37
srichterthe far more interesting comparison is J2EE and Zope 317:37
suse_joeAbout z3c.form: I've just looked at the demos and some code so far. Looked solid, but I'm still looking for something more high-level, like I was looking for five years ago.17:38
srichterbecause they work on the same level of complexity and fulfilling real world needs17:38
srichteryou should talk to Dominik Huber; his ideas remind me a lot of yours17:38
suse_joeWhenever I need to do forms I have to do a lot of work (custom widgets that do dates and German numbers right, lots of CSS and template work to make things pretty etc.) to get things really useable. That hasn't changed since Formulator.17:39
srichterhe has built a huge suite of stuff that attempts to do plug'n'play type of things via ZCML17:39
srichter(content types are initially empoty and are just marked up, etc)17:39
suse_joesrichter: Any links?17:39
srichternothing is public as far as I know17:39
srichteryou would have to contact him directly17:39
suse_joeReal world needs: I have real world needs, too. ;-) I know that Rails, TurboGears, Django etc. do not cover half as many areas Zope does cover.17:41
suse_joeThat's why I have always come back.17:41
suse_joeBut I feel that like when I did Kontentor with you years back we need more high-level components that work out of the box and are easy to re-use.17:42
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suse_joeRed Hat has used Plone (!) for their new cluster management tool. I guess that was for the very reason that plain Zope2 (and even more Zope3) is not high-level enough for them.17:44
srichterand I think we have those components; they are in; anything that I ever did that was reusable for another project is in svn.zope.org17:44
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srichterthe problem with high level components is that I can never reuse them in another project17:44
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srichterprojects are just too different17:44
srichterat least in my world17:44
suse_joeI'm not proposing that Zope 3 becomes another CMS-like toolkit all by itself. But it finally needs such a beast on top.17:45
srichterI imagine that Zope Corp.  being in the CMS buisiness has developed high-level components that represent their know-how, for example17:45
srichterright, so if you are in the CMS business, you can definitely do a lot more17:45
srichter(I have never worked on a CMS-like system.)17:46
srichter....with Zope 3 that is17:46
srichterall that said, I think you brought up some important areas that need improvement; I totally agree that number formatting in forms and internationalized datetime widgets should exist17:47
suse_joeSure, projects differ a lot. But whenever I come back to web programming I feel that it's still so primitive compared to what you get from Desktop toolkits like Qt/KDE.17:47
srichterthe internationalized number thing I will put on my list for z3c.form17:48
timtesuse_joe: plone is on its way to become that beast  :)17:48
srichterQt/KDE - yes, it there would be more pyQt/pyKDE jobs, I would leave the Web in a second17:49
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suse_joeI still hate Plone. Maybe it will be different on Z3. But back in the old days the CMF/Plone stack was terrible code. Even though the results that you can produce were pretty impressive.17:49
srichterI have come to realize an important difference between Desktop toolkits and the Web;17:49
srichter1. Web technologies suck (CSS is just aweful)17:49
srichter2. The web is ruled by prettiness and designers17:50
srichterthus, conforming frameworks, such as Qt/KDE, are not accepted by the Web community17:50
srichterif it would, we would not have as many JS frameworks out there trying to define common UI sets17:51
srichterpyjamas and GWT looks promising though17:51
timteI would love to do some pyQt/pyKDE too17:52
suse_joeIt's basically always the same problem domain I would like to solve with the framework I'm looking for: Web _applications_ rather than web_sites_. E.g., right now I'm investigating how we could do a "Web YaST" right.17:52
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srichteruuh, that would be cool :-)17:53
srichterin that case pyjamas might look very attractive17:53
suse_joeOne idea actually is using Witty (Wt), which is a C++ web framework based on Qt ideas. But we may run into exactly the problems you mentioned above. E.g. Wt will enforce widgets with a certain look. They can be styled, but it's still not as flexible as doing forms by hand in HTML/CSS.17:54
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suse_joeAnd of course using C++ for the web is early nineties. ;-)17:55
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suse_joeLooks like pyjamas is similar in concept.17:56
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suse_joeI'll have a look.17:56
srichteron the other hand you will find that with Zope 3 you will be quickly developing severla UI patterns that you can easily reuse17:56
srichterRoger and I (as well as the Lovely Systems guys) have done extremely flexible UIs with the component architecture17:57
suse_joeThe point with YaST is that it has it's own layout engine that then is rendered using Qt, GTK, or ncurses. So in theory all the web parts could be written in a generic way, so that all existing modules would just run in the web management console.17:58
srichterbut there we developed patterns that would be hard for a high-level tool to integrate unless they totally emerge in it17:58
srichterin that case I think Zope 3 is well suited ;-)17:58
suse_joeThe Z3 project I did (not for SUSE) was basically like the Monster job site, but for a closed community at a university. I had to do a lot of tweaking, but it was pretty impressive how I was able to do all the data modelling with schemas.18:00
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suse_joeSo I've seen some of the strengths of Z3 already.18:01
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srichterright, schemas work very well18:02
srichterand with the new form frameworks it hangs together pretty nicely18:02
srichteranother strength is definitely UI flexibility18:02
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srichterin the address book demo I just barely scraped the surface of what we do in customer projects18:03
srichtersuch as table item selection opens edit windows on the right; adding addresses within a form, etc.18:03
suse_joeThe calculator, is that running the calculations server-side or in the browser?18:05
srichterserver side18:05
srichterno, fast page reloads :-)18:06
suse_joeThat's another option indeed. :-)18:06
srichterall the demos are purposefully not written using any AJAXy like things18:06
* pcardune listens in18:06
srichterI hope that pcardune will have some of those demos in AJAX by the end of the summer18:07
srichterpcardune: I think the calculator we could almost do in the current state, no?18:07
srichterI guess we need JSON hooks still to talk to the server18:07
srichterbut we are close18:07
srichtersuse_joe: if you are going to EP, Paul can show you what he has18:08
suse_joeIn the app I mentioned before I'm using some very ancient stuff that does the asynchronous communication via cookies. :-) Works on more browsers than anything else. :-)18:09
srichterhuh, interesting18:10
suse_joeBut it has limits. There is no generic data structure like in XML or JSON.18:10
suse_joesricher: I'm not sure if I will be able to go to any of the Zope or Python conferences. My job is mainly business now.18:18
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suse_joesrichter: If you don't see my replies I have to register my nick first.18:24
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xbeanxThis page needs some formatting consideration:
srichtersuse_joe: you have to register first; I cannot see your replies18:26
xbeanxoh, nvm18:27
xbeanxit's the diff page .. *blush*18:27
srichterjoin #joe-discuss18:27
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dennis__was there an easy way to make z3c.form use checkboxes for my boolean fields ?20:14
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dennis__.customwidget = CustomWidgetFactory( checkbox.CheckBoxFieldWidget)  doesn't ..20:23
pcardunedennis__: it's not customWidget?20:25
dennis__oops i had .custom_widget, which I think is right, but customWidget doesn't do anything either20:26
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dennis__but .custom_widget is a zope.formlib feature20:31
pcardune.customWidget follows zope naming convention20:32
pcarduneoh wait, i think it is .customWidgetFactory20:32
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dennis__1119   ...     fields['name'].widgetFactory = MyFieldWidget       from form.txt20:35
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hazmatfaassen, is it possible to have multiple hurry workflows active on a given object?20:42
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faassenhazmat: I don't think so, not without some more work to support it.20:46
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hazmatfaassen, would you accept patches for hurry.workflow and z3.2 compatiblity?23:10
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