IRC log of #zope3-dev for Tuesday, 2007-07-03

dennis_uh oh, emacs00:01
dennis_and i only "sheepishly asked on irc" because the ILocatable you mentioned doesn't exist :))  (and yes I grepped first)00:01
dennis_but thanks i will use ctags more :)00:01
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X-screamehm, who uses emacs? :)00:02
pbugniwho doesn't?00:02
dennis_uh oh00:03
benjiX-scream: not who you think! <wink>00:03
pcardunedennis_: by sheepishly, I was referring to myself some months ago :)00:03
pcardunedennis_: there is a way to do it in vi to, but I forgot how when I started using emacs :)00:03
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dennis_what is a recommended way to keep track of object permissions, where i remove a principal, I want the unset all the permissions that may exist on any object anywhere (in the annotations) .. or an efficient way to remove them all at once?01:34
J1msadly, none of the current security policies support that use case.01:35
J1mIf you remove the user from the user folder, they won't have access, but the grants will still be in the database.01:35
dennis_my small worry is re-use of the principal id resulting in accidental access, bigger worry is data which never goes away01:36
tjsdoes zope3 handle stdout specially ?01:39
tjsI'm trying to print inside a thread Ive created and am getting nothing on the console01:39
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tjsbut Its being run01:39
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J1mare you using zopectl start? (or some such)01:40
J1mHm, that's odd.  I'm pretty sure that we don't much w stdout.01:41
J1mI suspect your thread isn't running.01:41
J1mThreads are tricky. :)01:41
tjsI've just been trying to get some normality for worker threads01:42
tjs^^ with these two helper funcs01:42
tjsif anyone could just cast an eye over it to see if there is anything I should be doing that Ive missed?01:42
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tjsthey are very short01:43
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J1mThat looks OK.  I don't see any prints there.01:44
tjsyeh the prints are in the method that calls that, I just thought while I had someones brief attention I'd get some eyes on it, while I'm online this channel is -very- quiet01:45
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tjs(in AU)01:45
tjsthanks btw :)01:45
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tjskinda new to z301:45
J1mI would run your thread logic from a debug prompt so you can see errors and can even use the debugger.01:45
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tjsI'll give that a go, thanks :)01:46
J1mI guess you're up really early.01:47
tjsmy day is just starting01:47
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J1mHm, k01:47
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J1mTime zones are so confusing. They're like threads.01:48
tjsoh, while someone else is alive :) I did have one other question01:48
tjsI'm a twisted person, now working with z3, is there any reason why I can't just import the twisted reactor and callFromThread() stuff? has anyone tried that?01:49
J1mThat should work.01:50
tjsooh excellent :)01:50
J1massuming you're using the twisted server.01:50
tjstwisted is the default ?01:50
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J1mweb2 hasn't been very stable sadly, so many of us have been using zserver in production.01:50
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J1myes, twisted is the default, which is rather cruel.01:51
tjsyou should have a chat with dried on #twisted01:51
tjstell him you want some stability01:51
tjshe is probably tinkering for tinkerings sake01:51
J1myeah, I should. :)01:52
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tjsweb2 is old enough to be mature now days01:52
tjsits dissapointing its still a moving target01:52
J1mHe'll probably ask for specifics and all I can say is that Zope3 tends to fall over in production in various ways when using twisted.01:52
J1mwhich isn't very specific.01:52
tjsJ1m: I'd like to think the twisted community could be helpful, that z3 uses twisted can only benifit the twisted project01:53
J1mI have the impression that web2 doesn't get a lot of respect in the twisted community, although that may have changed.01:53
J1mwell, we do. :)01:53
tjsJ1m: there is a long toolchain built on t.web01:53
J1mI wonder if divmod uses web2.01:54
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tjsnot for their web app stuff01:54
J1mWhen they do (or some other major twisted user does) I'll feel a lot better.01:54
tjsthey probably mix and match to implement their file upload stuff01:54
tjsbut nevow is a web1 thing01:54
J1mso I wonder if anyone but us uses web2.01:55
tjsI use web201:55
J1mor if anyone is using it in real production applications.01:55
tjsapple inc. ship web2 with their next OS01:55
J1mdo you use it other than through zope?01:55
tjsdo you remember a project called nufox?01:56
J1mwell, that is encouraging, I guess.01:56
tjsit was small, and short lived, it was a t.web xul server that used comet01:56
J1mPython XUL toolkit?01:56
tjsI've recently started rewriting it with web201:56
J1mwhat does Apple use web2 for?01:57
tjstheir personal dav server01:57
tjsits all twisted01:57
J1mAs an apple shareholder, I don't know whether to be encouraged or afraid. :)01:57
tjshaha :)01:57
J1mI don't really know whether the problems we've had were in web2 or in the wsgi integration.01:58
J1mI suppose it's possible that we screwed something up in the integration.01:58
tjsI take it you are Jim Fulton?01:59
tjsdo you speak with glyph ?01:59
J1mYeah, mostly at pycon.01:59
J1mPretty much exclusively at pycon.01:59
J1mand occassionally on #twisted.02:00
J1mI'm becoming a twisted programmer. :)02:00
tjsI'd probably suggest chatting with him about the stability of web2, he can push things to completion02:00
J1mk, will do.02:00
tjsreally, twisted has had some bad press with people using it in big apps and doing it badly02:01
tjsXEN hypervisor is a case in point02:01
tjsI'd hate for z3 to be another02:01
J1mI'm pretty happy with twisted at the netwoprking library level.02:01
tjsnot saying your doing it badly, but sounds like you need some cooperation from the other end02:01
J1mI recently rewrote Zope Replication Services using twisted.02:02
J1mAnd I plan to rewrite ZEO on it.02:02
tjsono, you have the bug now ;)02:02
J1mThe main appeal to me is testability.02:02
tjsthats how it starts, a little twisted here, a little there02:03
J1mI can write decent tests that don't use the network and thus often don't need wacky threads and processes.02:03
tjswell if you like testability, trail made a massive milestone last night :)02:03
J1malthough the Twisted testing support could use a lot of improvement.02:03
J1mOh, how so?02:04
tjsjml and iratsu got it running tests in parallel02:04
tjsreduces the twisted tests from 400s to about 30, on one machine02:04
* J1m yawns02:04
J1mI care a lot more about test readability than execution time.02:04
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J1mI haven't had any temptation to use trial.02:05
J1mI like doctests.02:05
tjswell I think trial is heading in the right direction, one thing I've -really- found lacking writing zope3 tests in the past few weeks are some of trials features like the ability to raise TODO from a test02:05
J1mI'm not familiar with that.02:06
J1mWhat is that used for>02:06
tjsit basically marks the test as not being implemented, if you are doing test driven development it lets you say 'this is a test that is expected to fail' and it doesn't kill buildbots etc.02:07
tjswhen it passes it prints unexpected succes02:07
tjsand you go remove the raise todo02:07
tjsits very handy02:08
J1mI know some test frameworks have something like this.02:08
J1mSomebody who cares about it should add it to ours. :)02:08
tjsif you have twisted installed, just type "trial twisted" and watch the output02:08
tjsI'm sure there will be some in there02:08
tjsJ1m: well now I'm working at a zope3 house I should probably start contributing something..02:09
J1mOur test runner has evolved over several years.  It has a lot of nice features.02:10
J1mOTOH, I'm into owning less.02:10
J1mI've heard that nose is very pluggable.02:10
tjswell I think stdlib unittest is getting an overhaul soon02:11
J1mI wish I had enough time to investigate whether what we do could be implemented as nose plugins.02:11
J1myeah, I guess I heard that a while ago.02:11
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romanofskimoin :)09:30
huajiegood morning romanofski !09:32
* romanofski waves09:35
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ccombHi, juste a legal question I don't remember :  is ZPL 2.1 compatible with GPL ?  Is there any issue distributing zope3 software under the GPL ? Or do you advice to keep the ZPL ?11:23
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ccombd2m thanks, this is clearly stated.11:29
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huajieif I run zope from the SVN, where should I checkout so that it can be found ?11:42
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baijumhuajie, anywhere in Python path12:01
baijumbut include ZCML slug, if there is any12:02
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huajiebaijum: slug :?12:08
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baijumcreate a etc/package-includes/z3c-configure.zcml with content: <include package="">12:11
huajiebaijum: I see thx12:13
kleisthuajie: i have also been wondering about the term "slug"... i think it's a pun, referring to "multicellular assembly"
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huajiekleist: interesting12:29
kleisthuajie: english is my second language, so actually i have no idea... that's just a personal theory12:30
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huajiekleist: english is my fourth language so I know even less12:32
kleistbigkevmcd: ah thanks, now i know what it is... a tiny thin something12:40
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* baijum also know what "slug" is, he used "ZCML slug" without fully understanding the meaning ;)12:45
baijums/know/now know/12:46
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dennis_I get a lot of:  ERROR QueueProcessorThread Error while sending mail from .. to .. , File "/usr/local/Zope-3.4.0a1/lib/python/zope/sendmail/", line 202, in run, unlink(filename), OSError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '....../mail-queue/new/<message_id>'      .. and then I receive the mail twice or thrice. Using the queued mail delivery utility13:29
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dennis_hmm I have a single mailer and a mailqueue, yet according to my postfix logs, zope makes 2 simultanious connections, delivers the same message (same message-ID), en then one thread will delete the message and the other will complain that it can not delete the message anymore14:12
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CrippsFXsrichter: why is the class the one that rml2pdf needs to convert to a PDF ... what would I do in a custom class to have my rml file rendered as a PDF?15:22
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srichterit is just a convenience, because the class does what I needed15:23
srichterjust write your own browserview class15:23
srichteror none at all, if you have no dynamic data15:23
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CrippsFXsrichter: kay. Thanks. Now I know what I have to do when we get back from our meeting :)15:29
X-screamanyone got the 2nd ed. of Philipps book?15:31
norroX-scream yes15:33
X-screamhow do you like it?15:33
norrovery much. It has a clear structure and i really ike to work with it15:34
X-screamI was struggling with old getting-started tutorials a few days but gave up and ordered the book15:34
X-screamsounds promising, can't wait :)15:35
benjiX-scream: I'm curious about whether or not you looked at my (admittedly very short) quick start guide.15:35
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X-screamyes I did read it, that was one of the better ones15:37
X-screambut it's very brief :)15:37
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benjiand now slightly out of date :(15:38
X-screamI'd like to know more details and how you "really" work with it to make a webpage. So Philipp's book with a continously evolving example app sounds very interesting15:39
X-screambenji: yeah, i got some warnings with your code..15:39
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X-screamthis is really an issue for the newbies, getting beyond the simple helloworld..15:44
X-screamso, when I finally feel comfortable with Zope3 I'm going to write a nice tutorial.. because I really feel the pain and frustration of the zopenewbies15:45
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dennis_argg if I have a debug prompt open I have another mail thread running, and they (my debug and main zope one) are competing for the same maildir, brrreeegh15:47
dennis_well at least it's solved :)15:47
dennis_X-scream you will love the book, and get very far, and then switch to the z3c line of thought (form, pagelest), and relearn again from scratch, but the book will be great :)15:48
X-screamoh, ok :)15:49
sweetlovecho em vao de15:49
sweetloveanh oi15:49
X-screamwhat's z3c? :O15:49
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X-screamform and widget framework?15:50
sweetloveem muon vao au de hack anh ah`15:50
sweetlovecho em vao voi15:50
sweetloveem xin ma`15:51
dennis_kind of like addons, which do things a little bit differently, much more than just (but also including) forms and widgets15:51
dennis_but don't worry about those yet15:51
dennis_read the book :)15:51
sweetloveI want enter au15:52
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sweetlovefree and  see15:53
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CrippsFXyeah the book is pretty good ... I'm after reading the first 2 sections of the book about 3 times ... it's really helpful ... then you can start perusing the Zope source code and figure out how to do stuff :)16:28
CSWookieWhich Book?16:29
CrippsFXCSWookie: Phil's book16:29
CSWookieIt's a good-un alright.16:29
CrippsFXyou can say that again ;)16:29
CSWookieI wish he had a companion book the got really dirty about what all the zcml directives do.16:30
CrippsFXalthough, I must say I'm looking forward to the third edition16:30
CSWookieAnd went over Sources in greater detail.  And formlib.16:30
CrippsFXthe zcml API in the back of phil's book isn't a bad resource ...16:30
CSWookieCrippsFX: No it's not.16:30
CrippsFXooh ... formlib is definitely something that needs to be exposed more.16:30
CSWookieBut it's just an Appendix, and zcml is full of disgusting magic.16:31
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CrippsFXwell, I found it useful anyways16:31
CSWookieIt's very useful, but I want more depth.16:31
CrippsFXyeah ... there is the magic thing ... generally regarded as bad ;)16:31
CrippsFXwhat was the companion book you used, anyway?16:31
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CSWookieBut I maintain code written by people who liked browser pages.16:32
CrippsFXbrowser pages are good because they're simple ... but formlib is amazing because it's flexible ;)16:32
CSWookieAt some point I'll give myself leisure to swim through the source code for them and figure out what they do.16:32
CSWookiebrowser:pages are horrible because they add magical mixin classes to your code.16:33
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CrippsFXmmm ... this is true ... but it is easier for the newbs ... as long as they don't worry about *how* it works.16:34
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CrippsFXha ha! I win ... I have the pdftemplate package now generating pdfs for me ... apparently doesn't like parsing "<? xml ... ?>", but DOES like parsing "<?xml ... ?>"18:23
CrippsFX...doesn't help that it's an invalid tag ... *sigh* where did I get the idea that it would work?18:25
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CrippsFXsrichter: alright, I have my BrowserView class written, and my configuration appears to be correct, but when I try to view the pdf, I get a blank pdf ... I call the pdfview from root/container/object01/object01.pdf which should get the information from object01 and insert it into the rml (via tals) ...19:15
CrippsFXwhen I neglect to put __call__ = something in my View class, I get the blank pdf, but when I use __call__ = ViewPageTemplateFile('templates/') I get an html view of the post-processed xml.19:16
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CrippsFXhere is the code that I'm using for the BrowserView for z3c.pdftemplate I *must* be missing something becuase the only results I'm getting are either a 0 byte pdf or the template file being displayed in html ... if somebody who has more experience with z3c.pdftemplate than I do could take a look and point out my error, I would be very grateful.19:57
CrippsFXer ... helps to post the link:
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faassenis there any equivalent of Zope 2's PathIndex in zope 3?20:32
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hazmatfaassen, re hurry.workflow.. is there any particular reason iworkflows are utilities instead of adapters?21:52
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faassenhazmat: what would they adapt?21:55
faassenhazmat: I guess it might be possible fo rthem to adapt the workflowables, in which case you could have separate workflows in parallel, at least you'd be closer to it.21:56
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hazmatfaassen, the separate parallel workflows i solved different so the annotation storages didn't collide22:01
hazmatbut i have multiple objects in the site, subject to different workflows, and the utility based workflow, really only allows one workflow in the site22:01
faassenhazmat: anyway, you could try it out on a branch. one issue is if we make it an adapter we'll break backwards compatibility.22:03
hazmatso switching iworkflow to an adapter would allow the multiple workflows concurrently within a site, just curious if there was a reason it wasn't done that way previously.. and if patches for such would be accepted, or if i should just layer on top22:03
faassenhazmat: I'm not too hung up about backwards compat, but at least we need to be aware of it.22:03
faassenhazmat: patches would be accepted, if they include tests. and we need a story for backwards compatibility.22:04
hazmati could build in compatiblity without too many problems22:04
hazmatqueryAdapter -> fallback getUtility22:04
faassenhazmat: right, that might indeed work well enough.22:04
faassenhazmat: anyway, I'd accept a patch if it extended the doctest with a new chapter on multiple workflows. (i.e. parallel workflows on an object and multiple workflows per site)22:05
faassenthat would indeed be quite useful. :)22:05
faassenhazmat: what are you using it for?22:05
hazmatfaassen, getpaid z3 ecommerce system.. finance/fufillment workflows on orders, fulfimment workflows on items, shipments, etc.22:06
faassenusing it in z2?22:06
faassenor is it zope 3?22:06
hazmatyup.. zope 2.9 even.. workflow is actually the heart of the system22:06
faassenI thought getpaid was plone stuff.22:06
hazmatthe core is pure zope322:06
faassenanyway, nice. :)22:06
hazmati had to do some minor compatiblity for annotation package location changes, but outside of that its worked great, thanks for writing it, having a simple workflow engine to use has been great22:07
faassenyou're welcome. it's good it's found some use outside of the document library.22:08
faassenand happy to receive improvements to it, might be useful to future projects for myself. :)22:08
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