IRC log of #zope3-dev for Friday, 2007-08-31

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Lacrymologydamn vim16:20
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dissonansI find that zope.interface.implements affects the baseclass of the class in question16:22
dissonans__provides__ shows up in dir(BaseClass)16:22
dissonanseven though hasattr(BaseClass, "__provides__") is still False16:22
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rocky|awayis there anyway to tell zc.buildout to give me tracekbacks when errors occur?16:33
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J1mrocky|away, yes, use -D16:37
rocky|awayJ1m: i'm really only just getting started using eggs... how would i tell an a recipe for my part to not go to pypi but use an svn version of my recipe instead?16:38
yvldissonans, hasattr(BaseClass, "__provides__")  is True if class implements(ISomething) - at least on Zope3.2 :)16:40
dissonansyvl:  I've pasted a test script which illustrates my problem with zope.interface:
J1mCheck out the package from subversion.  Then tell buildout to create a develop egg from it.  All parts will prefer the develop egg.16:41
dissonansi.e., baseclass doesn't implement any interface, subclass A implements an interface, subclass B does not, subclass B breaks16:41
dissonansthat is inspect.getmembers on subclass B will break at least16:42
mgedmindissonans: in general you cannot always expect that 'foo' in dir(obj) implies hasattr(obj, 'foo')16:42
mgedminconsider a property that conditionally raises AttributeError16:42
mgedminwhich is more or less exactly what you stumbled upon16:43
dissonansmgedmin: anyhow it breaks code in the standard lib16:43
dissonansand confused the hell out of me16:43
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dissonans"explicit is better than implicit"16:45
ignasyour patches to improve the internals of zope.interfaces are welcome16:45
* mgedmin is not sure how that applies here16:45
dissonansmgedmin: my problem with this is that it mutates my baseclass via a derived class16:46
dissonansa no-no in my book16:46
dissonansignas: can this behaviour be avoided then, or is it there for good reason?16:46
dissonansI have better ways to spend my time than hacking zope code16:46
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J1mA class' implements spec depends on the implements specs of the bases classes, so it has to create them if they don't exist.16:47
ignasdissonans: i have better ways to spend time than explaining you internals of code you don't have time to hack16:47
J1mPerhaps a better approach would have been to store this information outside the classes.16:47
dissonansignas: I could understand and try hack it if there's any point in doing so ...16:47
J1mdissonans, I'm talking to you. And I am the author of the code in question.16:48
dissonansJ1m: I understood you were talking to me16:48
ignasJ1m: would returning an new empty data structure every time work in such case?16:48
J1mI don't know the source of this discussion.16:48
J1mBecause if a declaration is later added to a base class, the subclasses would need to reflect it.16:49
dissonansJ1m: the problem is that an interface-aware subclass affects other non-interface-aware subclasses16:49
ignasoh, so you need all sub classes referring the container of the baseclass?16:50
J1ma suitable change would be to store the information outside the classes, but I doubt it would really change the fact that assuming that dir is a guarantee of attributes is broken.16:50
ignasnot sure if the word container is the right one16:50
dissonansI'm contemplating migration to zope.interface, but not in a forced manner :)16:50
J1ma subclass spec has to return to the specs of it's base classes.16:50
dissonansJ1m: inspect.getmembers is the symptom of the problem, my issue is that the non-interface-aware baseclass is affected16:51
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J1mdissonans, from a theoretical point of view, I appreciate and agree with your distaste for having specs injected into base classes.16:51
dissonansfor me it is out of practical considerations :_)16:52
mgedmindissonans: have you considered that your code that relies on dir() also fails to work with proxies that delegate all attributes via __getattr__ ?16:52
J1mdissonans, inspect.getmembers is probably a symptom of a naive inspect implementation.16:52
mgedminI wouldn't rely on dir() for anything other than debugging purposes16:52
dissonansregardless of dirs and what not I don't like my baseclass being affected16:52
dissonansit's theoretically unclean and super confusing in practice16:53
J1mdissonans, in practice, the injection of specs in base classes doesn't really matter all that much.16:53
J1mdissonans, fair enough. If it is *that* important to you, then don't use zope.interface.16:53
dissonansJ1m: sure I'd like to use zope.interface, but I think that if at all possible it should be solved otherwise16:53
J1mLots of things are possible but not important enough to do.16:54
J1mWhile I agree with your sentiment, it isn't that important, at least not to me.16:54
dissonansJ1m: if you deem it possible I might even put it on my TODO list ...16:55
J1mIf I were doing it over -- which I'm not -- I'd store the specs in an external data structure.16:55
dissonansmy main problem with it is the confusion it caused, I'm sure other zope.interface newbies will be equally surprised16:55
* J1m shrugs16:55
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ignasdissonans: not really, most people don't care about attributes they don't use16:56
ignasthey way I see it, it's a performance optimization16:56
dissonansignas: it bit me indirectly16:56
ignasthat makes interfaces a bit faster, with a very low cost16:57
dissonansI used inspect.getmembers via the mock module (which I use in tests)16:57
mgedmindissonans: you seem to be the first one to be surprised in... how many years now?16:57
J1mignas, I doubt it makes interfaces any faster.16:57
mgedminothers usually don't notice16:57
mgedminJ1m: it could be solved if the subclass spec stored a reference to the base class and did a getattr(cls, '__provides__', None) every time, at additional expense16:57
ignasJ1m: hmm, i thought you were creating the structure preemptivelly so you could reference it directly instead of looking up the spec every time16:57
J1mThere is a cleaner implementation, I just doubt it is a priority of anyone to fix it.16:58
J1mignas, the structure doen't have to be stored in the class.16:58
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J1mIt could, for example, be stored in a weak key dictionary.16:59
J1mwhich is how I would do it if I had some other reason to refactor that implementation.16:59
ignasso it's more to make it extensible, rather than for speed?16:59
J1mYou could argue that storing __bases__ is for speed, although I didn't think of it that way.17:00
J1mIt is to make it *work*.17:00
dissonansthen make it right ;)17:01
dissonansI might try my hand at it17:01
* dissonans goes back to work17:01
J1mA subclass spec needs to depend on base class specs and if someone adds a spec to the base class, then it needs to be reflected in the subclass.17:01
J1mdissonans, if you want to attack this, that would be fine.  It is fairly straightforward I believe.17:02
dissonansI would hope so17:02
dissonansthe easier the better17:02
dissonansbtw, in the zope.testing world is there any use of mock objects?17:03
dissonansand if so, any integration between mocks and interfaces?17:03
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J1mIt depends on whether you use the correct definition -- or the loose definition used on the Python testing mailing list.17:04
J1mwe commonly use stub objects.17:04
dissonanswell, I know of the strict definition17:04
dissonans"fake objects" should be the general term17:04
J1mI really don't have time to get into that discussion.17:05
dissonansdo you check stubs against interfaces?17:05
dissonansto keep them in sync?17:05
J1mand we don't use mocks in the precise sense.17:05
J1mI share Martin Fowler's skepticism of the mock approach except in very narrow applications.17:06
* mgedmin too17:06
dissonansthat's not important, I just figured it might be useful to verify a mock's interface against the real class17:06
dissonansI use mocks (or fakes or whatever you want to call it) quite a bit, but that's me17:06
mgedminI sometimes dream of a variant of verifyObject that makes sure my stubs implement a subset of the real interface17:07
dissonansmgedmin: I think I will extend my Mock class with support for interfaces17:07
mgedminif you really want all your mocks to implement the full interface, you can use the real verifyObject17:07
dissonansit's been many a time I figured I could need that sort of thing17:07
* mgedmin instead decided to use fewer stubs and more real objects in the test fixtures17:08
dissonansthe problem is mainly attributes, I already check methods17:08
dissonansthat is instance variables17:09
dissonansare problematic17:09
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J1mdissonans, I'm not entirely sure what you are talking about.17:11
J1mI'll note that zope.interface has a verification utility that is commonly uses in tests to partially verify that objects under test are consistent with their interfaces.17:12
dissonansJ1m: I mean that I can easily verify that a mock's methods are consistent with the mocked class17:14
dissonansbut not attributes17:14
dissonanss/attributes/instance variables/17:14
dissonanswhich is where interfaces come into play, or so I'm thinking17:14
J1mI don't really know why you'd care.  Not that I really care why you care. :)17:14
dissonansbecause mocks go out of sync??17:15
dissonanswith the original interface17:15
J1mmocks are just test fixtures.17:15
* J1m stops17:15
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dissonansok nevermind, there is an itch that I am scratching although it doesn't affect others (except through bugs)17:17
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TheuniHumm. J1m. I see that you (19 months ago) started working on a profiler package for zope 3. do you think it's still functional?18:43
TheuniI stumbled over "profilestats"18:44
TheuniI'm looking for some profiling support for Zope 3.18:44
TheuniSVN blames you for it. :)18:44
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Theuniit looks like it still might work18:45
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J1mI don't remember what you are talking about.18:45
TheuniK. I'll just try then.18:46
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* mgedmin pimps and on the subject of profiling z3 views18:47
mgedminif you find something more convenient, I'd love to know18:50
Theuniok, so that package of jim's looks like its made for uploading profiler statistic files, not switching the profiler on/off in your instance18:52
mgedminI'd love a good visualisation tool for profiler stats18:53
mgedminsomething sysprof-like, perhaps?18:53
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J1mmgedmin, check out:18:54
J1mIt would be even cooler if I was good at js.18:54
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mgedminany sample output?18:54
J1mno, I haven't used it for some time.18:55
J1mYou should be able to point it at any pstats file though.18:55
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