IRC log of #zope3-dev for Monday, 2007-10-01

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zenwrylyJ1m: I don't suppose you're here?00:43
J1mphiliKON, zenwryly ping00:55
philiKONJ1m: i'm on my way to bed. will talk to you some other time. it's not important00:55
zenwrylyJ1m: just sent an email to distutils-sig about zc.recipe.egg00:58
zenwrylyJ1m: just thought I'd additionally give a IRC ping too00:58
J1mare you ross?00:59
zenwrylyyeah, sorry :)00:59
J1mIt looks like you sent the note to just me.00:59
zenwrylygmane authorizing right now00:59
J1mI don't understand what the point is,01:00
J1mwhat use case is this for?01:01
J1mI guess use cases.01:01
J1mIf you wish, I'll respond via email.01:02
zenwrylywell I use the setup recipe is for releases01:02
J1mIt doesn't make sense to me to drive this from a buildout.01:02
J1mBuildouts let you do the same thing over and over again.01:02
J1mwhy would you want to do that with a release?01:02
zenwrylythe editable recipe I use to use the same buildout for development and deployment where deployment gets released eggs and development uses svn URLs01:02
zenwrylywell my use is to use a buildout as a development environemnt for a number of related projects...01:03
zenwrylythen I can release them all at once when I'm ready01:03
zenwrylyrelease after release01:03
J1mThis sounds odd.  I don't know if you want to try to explain it, but, if you do, could you give an example of how you would use this?01:05
zenwrylySay I'm working for a client that involves developing a number of projects.  I create a set of *.cfg files for buildout.  One *.cfg file uses the editable recipe to checkout svn versions of the projects to a location outside the part directory so they'll be preserved between runs of buildout.  Then when the source is ready for release, the setup recipe is configured to do "register sdist bdist_egg upload".01:09
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zenwrylyOn deployment I can use a lot of the same *.cfg files but let the development projects get used as eggs without having svn:externals.01:10
zenwrylyI also have a use case where on deployment I need source distributions for released versions of projects but I need them to be automatically replaced when there are new releases, but that is just an ugly situation.01:11
J1mwhy is avoiding svn:externals a goal?01:13
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J1mI don't like the idea of uploading eggs as part of a buildout.01:13
J1mIt feels like it makes it too easy to do accidental uploads.01:13
zenwrylyI like avoiding svn:externals as it allows me to use the same buildout checkout for deployment or release.  It also allows me to convert a deployment buildout to a development buildout in whole or part to debug.01:14
zenwrylyI keep the setup recipe in it's own release.cfg file that extends buildout.cfg so that I have to specify "-c release.cfg" to run it01:15
J1mYou say you have a use case where you need source distributions for delployment.  I don't understand this.  What does this mean? Do you install these as develop eggs?  Why do you *need* this? Does this have some advantage over an unzipped install?01:15
zenwrylyIt doesn't it's an ugly situation that should not be considered :)01:16
J1mI can see some benefit of an editble recipe.  I can see how it might be more flexible to control checkouts via recipes.01:17
zenwrylyYeah, that's the elegant summary, thanks :)01:17
J1mI think this should be a separate recipe though, I see no need to merge with zc.recoipe.egg.01:17
zenwrylyI just had the issue where I just put something in the z3c namespace that someone wished I had included elsewhere01:18
J1mhm I don't know about that. :)01:19
zenwrylyso the setup recipe you think is just a bad idea?01:19
J1mI have nothing to say about the z3c namespace.01:19
J1mThat's my opinion. That doesn't make me right and you wrong. :)01:19
zenwrylywell I like collecting opinions, especially from the zc people :)01:20
J1mIt's arguably partly a matter of taste.01:20
zenwrylywell thanks for the discussion, helps me clarify my thinking01:20
J1mbtw, we have recipes for doing checkouts too, although these are mostly for transaitions from our older buildout system that preceeded zc.buildout.01:21
J1mLots of people have wanted this sort of thing.01:22
J1m(Ours wasn't generalized like yours is.)01:22
zenwrylyWhat was the older buildout system?01:23
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J1mWell, we have had several, going back to a make-based system done by Tres.01:24
J1mThe one that preceeded zc.buildout was our first Python-based buildout system. It was done by Benji York.01:25
J1mIt was very much an evolutionary prototype.01:25
J1mIt established the basic pattern of cfg files and recipes that zc.buildout uses.01:26
J1mIt wasn't egg based at all though.01:26
J1mIt used svn checkouts to assemble Python packages.01:26
J1mso I wrote a recipe to emulate what it did to help us transition our project with the older buildouts.01:27
zenwrylyI'm curious, what did you consider the biggest problem with that approach?01:27
J1mwell the main problem is that we had to be veryt careful to avoid having the buildout clobber precious data (code).01:27
J1mso, if we changed a version #, it would rename the old checkout and make a new one.01:28
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J1mIn general, I think there should be artifacts that the buildout manages and argtifacts that people manage.  The 2 should not overlap.01:29
J1mOtherwise, people and buildout get in each others way.01:29
zenwrylyYeah, I ask because I've just run into so many problems trying to piece application code together from multiple svn sources01:29
J1mSo I much much prefer managing code I might edit myself outside the buildout. Externals or even temporary checkouts work great for me.01:30
zenwrylyThat was the idea with the build-directory option in the editable recipe.  If you let buildout manage the distribtions, the go in the part which is buildout managed.  But you could also specify a non-buildout managed diectory that it would leave alon (except for initial retrieval)01:30
J1mI much prefer piecing application components together with eggs,01:30
J1mIt depends on whether you are going to edit the checked out code. That's a central consideration for me.01:31
zenwrylyI guess the reason I like the setup recipe is that buildout gives me this fantistic set of data and framework to make repeated tasks a lot easier.  I can see how that's going beyond the intended scope of buildout, repeatable environments.01:34
J1mexactly.  It's a screw driver. Not a hammer. :)01:34
J1mGotta go cool dinner.01:35
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smwhy is he cooling dinner ?07:22
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zenwrylysm: he's a revolutionary!  Soon we'll all be cooling dinner.09:00
zenwrylysm: or maybe he's gone macrobiotic09:00
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romanofskimoin :)09:38
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*** Ariel_Calzada has joined #zope3-dev15:34 is currently broken.15:36
regebroI could check in a fix (it's trivial) a bit later, but I can't release an egg. Anybody here that can do that?15:37
zagy_what's broken there?15:42
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ignashmm, i have zope.View granted for zope.Anybody, but my other principals still are not getting the permission16:03
ignasanything i should look at?16:03
ignasmust i grant zope.View for every other principal i add?16:03
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jsadjohnsonwrong place!16:27
jsadjohnsonwrong channel16:27
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regebrozagy_: Some deprecation in rolepermission is pointing at something that doesn't exist.16:34
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CrippsFXI just finished doing some code restructuring (i.e. flat model to etc) and now my zope instance will let me view http://localhost:8080/@@index.html but it throws a system error on http://localhost:8080/@@contents.html ... I am logged in as Manager and a traceback (that I couldn't make any sense of) is located here: ... help finding the issue would be much appreciated.17:12
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benjiCrippsFX: just glancing at it, it looks like the code attempts to import the "interfaces" module and can't17:14
benjilooks like it was referenced in a constraint17:14
CrippsFXhm. Where would it be trying to look for the constraint/interfaces module? I can't see any references to my webapp in that T.B.17:15
benjiI would use the post-mortem debugger and look through the stack-trace, it'll probably be fairly easy to find17:16
CrippsFXbenji: kk. Good thing I have that enabled then.17:16
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CrippsFXbenji: how would I print out the value of a variable in pdb? i.e. __import__(used) is being called, and I'd like to see what the value of used is ... but the ? command in pdb isn't very informative17:36
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derek|coffeeshopwhat's the simplest way to obtain the current user and the current user's group in a zc.buildout?17:36
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bigkevmcdCrippsFX: type p nameofvariable or just nameofvariable17:38
CrippsFXbigkevmcd: kk. thanks17:38
bigkevmcdCrippsFX: when you get used to typing "nameofvariable", you'll understand why people hate variables called things like "c" or "p" or "s" :-)17:39
benjivariables named "c" are the bane of my existance17:40
bigkevmcdindeed, I can imagine why :-)17:40
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CrippsFXbigkevmcd: makes sense. Thanks for the linky ... I think I shall bookmark it.17:41
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CrippsFXusing that, I found *part* of where my app was going wrong ... it seems that in multiple places "ship.interfaces" is being referenced ... but that module no longer exists.17:43
CrippsFXsweet ... localhost:8080/@@contents.html now works.17:52
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CrippsFXman ... restructuring an application's directory structure is hard work!18:04
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CrippsFX... and now I'm going to start asking some *slightly* more difficult questions ...18:10
CrippsFXis there any documentation on how to include z3c packages into an application's source tree?18:11
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CrippsFXignas: ayt?18:36
CrippsFXI know that you work with schooltool ... how do you guys handle z3c (or similar) packages?18:36
ignaswhat do you mean by "handle"18:37
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CrippsFXignas: on a schooltool release, aren't they included in the schooltool source tree?18:38
ignasno, of course not18:38
CrippsFXHow do you take care of external packages as dependencies then?18:39
ignaslike what?18:40
ignaswhat do you mean external?18:40
ignasand how is different from
ignasboth are eggs, and both are in pypi18:40
CrippsFXto tell you the truth, I'm not entirely sure what I'm trying to ask here.18:40
CrippsFXokay ... how was it done *before* eggs?18:41
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ignasCrippsFX: we had no z3c dependencies ;)18:49
ignasok, we had18:50
ignasbut all of them were in ubuntu18:50
ignasso we had "install PIL and libxml on your system"18:50
ignasin README.txt18:50
CrippsFXignas: ahh. OKay. That makes sense.18:52
CrippsFXI have to tell xbeanx that he's full of shit then ;)18:52
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jsadjohnsonAnyone familiar with: AttributeError: 'PersistentSecurityMap' object has no attribute '_byrow'20:37
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ignasjsadjohnson, emm, can you paste the full traceback?20:37
ignasand use:20:37
ignaslisppaste6, url20:37
lisppaste6To use the lisppaste bot, visit and enter your paste.20:37
jsadjohnsonUsing an 3.3.1 ZODB with trunk20:39
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jsadjohnsonChecking backward compatibility.20:39
jsadjohnsoncontext is root folder20:41
ignashmm, no idea then, seems like versions of packages in trunk got out of sync20:41
ignassomeone forgot to update svn externals20:41
ignasor maybe svn up didn't do the full update20:41
jsadjohnsonI will recheckout.20:42
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jsadjohnsonI did a full checkout and the problems persist.20:58
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* lurker welcomes jsadjohnson to the state of zope where checkouts have seized to work while eggs are not yet fully there either...21:00
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jsadjohnsonIt's nice to be here. :)21:02
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spythonhmm, so there's no widget for Dict schema fields?21:16
srichterTheuni: do you know how to configure multi-databases in Z3?21:21
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wiggyisn't it the same as in z2?21:25
srichterwiggy: yeah, do you have a small smaple?21:25
jsadjohnsonfyi: I downgraded to 3.3.2 and the exception went away.21:26
wiggy works for zope221:26
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srichterwiggy: thanks a lot21:27
srichterwiggy: mmh, mount-point does not exist in Zope 3 :-(21:29
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hazmatis there any way to inject additional develop-eggs into a buildout without specifying them in the [buildout] section, i'd like to pull in some egg sources with another recipe (infrae.subversion), instead of mucking with svn externals21:32
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srichterJ1m: how do I use multi-databases in Zope 3?21:40
srichterJ1m: is there anything high-level I can use already?21:40
srichterJ1m: or do I need to write a "mountpoint" object or something similar?21:41
J1mFior better or worse, multi-databases are turned on by default.21:41
J1mJust create multiple named database definitions in zope.conf.21:41
srichterdid that21:42
J1m(One of which can be unnamed.21:42
J1mfor example:21:42
J1m  <zeoclient>21:42
J1m    server 810021:42
J1m  </zeoclient>21:42
J1m<zodb zaam>21:42
J1m  <zeoclient>21:42
J1m    server 820021:42
J1m  </zeoclient>21:42
srichterokay, this is the step I have already done21:43
J1msrichter, is down for you?21:43
srichterJ1m: yes21:43
J1mthough so.21:43
srichterJ1m: we really need a decent mirror of pypi21:43
J1mSo, I think the first definition is uses for the main db.21:44
J1msrichter, you don't use ppix?21:44
srichterJ1m: yeah, I do21:44
* srichter also tells everyone he meets about it21:44
J1mWe wouldn't even notice if I didn't get cron mail when pypi was down.21:44
J1mfortunately, Martin von Lois gets the same email. :)21:45
srichterthat was a Freudian21:45
srichter:-) he he21:45
J1mNot, ot was fultonian,21:46
srichterLOL :-)21:46
srichterJ1m: ok back to the multi-db thing: how do I connect the second DB to the first?21:46
J1mThat happens automatically.21:46
srichterJ1m: Zope 2 seems to have a "mount-point" option21:46
* J1m waits for srichter to ask the right question. ;)21:47
srichterJ1m: How can I access it then from the main DB?21:47
srichteror my application?21:47
J1mGood question!21:47
J1mfrom an existing connection, use:21:47
J1mThat returns a connection to the named db.21:47
J1mso, for example:21:47
J1mYou can also have direct object references.21:48
srichterahh, ok21:48
J1mOne thing to be aware of is that cross-database references are weak.21:48
J1mso, if the only reference to an object is cross-database, then the object may be packed away, leaving a broken ref.21:49
srichterok, that makes sense21:49
J1mcut/paste is something to be especially wary of.21:49
J1mI'm afraid this has buened a lot of people. :(21:49
J1mI need to add a no-gc option to file storage and a multi-db gc tool.21:50
J1msoo much to do, so little time..... :/21:50
srichterJ1m: so do you think it would be good to develop a  "MountPoint" content component?21:50
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J1mNo, I don't.21:51
srichterJ1m: I would be at a ZODB sprint21:51
J1mI don't see the point.21:51
J1mUnless you want to avoid cross-database references.21:51
srichterJ1m: it would make the entrance easier for people21:51
J1m"mounting" an object from one db into another requires no more than an assignment.21:51
J1mI'm not sure I'd want to encourage multi-databases until we have a better packing/gc store or unless we make the weak-reference issue much more apparent,21:53
srichterI see21:53
srichteryeha, I hear you21:54
srichterbut this is still all better than having your own data transfer protocol, which is the alternative21:54
hazmatJ1m, is there any way to augment the develop-eggs in a buildout from a part21:54
srichterJ1m: sounds like the package will come in handy again; it can mark an object to say: Hey, another DB is relying on this object21:56
J1msrichter, hm, possibly. Depends on the impl.21:57
J1mhazmat, I'm not sure what you mean, but develop eggs are pretty simple.21:58
J1mso a part could cram things into the directory ion a develop eggs that's added to a path.21:58
J1mFor example, we have develop eggs in buildouts that are just empty namespace packages that some recipes write sub-packages into.21:59
hazmatJ1m, i'm trying to manage pulling egg sources with a recipe, i can't specify the part dependency as part of a buildout develop section, since buildout doesn't have enough infrastructure up to bootstrap the other egg properly at that point. i was wondering about making a recipe which just stuffed the location into buildout:installed_develop_eggs and created egg links in buildout:develop egg directory22:05
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J1mhazmat, that wouldn't be a good idea.22:07
hazmatyeah... i didn't think so..22:07
J1mYou *could* just create a develo egg yourself in develp-eggs.22:07
J1mOther recipes do that.22:07
J1mIn fact, there's a recipe for creating develop eggs.22:07
J1mYou aren't limited to the buildout:develop option.22:08
hazmatJ1m, that would work, whats it called?22:08
J1mzc.recipe.egg:develop :)22:08
hazmatcool, thanks22:08
J1mI'd give you the irl to the documentation section if pypi was up.22:09
hazmatgoing through the egg sources at the moment22:09
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J1mLook at the .txt files.22:12
J1mtoo late22:12
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