IRC log of #zope3-dev for Tuesday, 2008-02-26

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mcdonccan you declare that a function implements an interface?00:36
ccombwith a decorator ?   @implementer00:36
mcdoncccomb: thank you, i'll give it a roll ;-)  i never knew...00:40
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philiKON_mcdonc: yup, @zope.interface.implementer is good for declaring that certain factories implement an interface00:47
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MacYEThi, do we have some implementation for activity-based workflows in zope 3 land?11:41
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goschtlhi has anybody an example for a div-based layout with formlib?13:01
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malthegoschtl: look in plone 314:31
malthethey define a custom template there14:31
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goschtlmalthe: ok thanks for the tip.14:43
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pyqwerDoes someone know how to extract the User-Agent from the request object?17:09
philiKONrequest['HTTP_USER_AGENT'] or something17:14
philiKONread about cgi variables17:14
philiKONin particular, how http headers are converted to cgi variables17:14
pyqwerphiliKON: Ah, yes, many thanks, that did the trick! Where do I find this info, in your book?17:16
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philiKONpyqwer: any manual about CGI17:21
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pyqwerAh, ok, I understand, you mean this not zope3-specific but generic.17:21
philiKONi imagine the python documentation to the module17:21
philiKONright, it's generic to CGI17:21
philiKONand WSGI, in fact17:21
philiKONWSGI borrows this part, like many others, from CGI17:21
pyqwerOk, what I did not know is that request is actually a dictionary, so it's dead simple.17:21
philiKONit's not a dictionary17:22
philiKONbut it supports item access to headers and request variables17:22
pyqwerYeah, but it probably has a __getitem__ method or something like that.17:22
philiKONbut it's not a dict :)17:22
pyqwerSo it can be accessed like a dictionary.17:22
pyqwerPerfect, thanks!17:22
boraxphiliKON: maybe I'm wrong but I thing ZopeProject is using Paste HTTP server by default. What are his benefits over ZServer or Twisted ??17:25
philiKON yeah, it's using that as default17:26
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philiKONhas some performance figures17:26
philiKONin general, it's just a demonstration of how zope3 can be deployed in pretty much any wsgi environment17:27
boraxIs it more/less stable ? Can it be extended as well as Twisted ??17:28
philiKONstable? well, the pylons folks etc. are using it in production17:29
philiKONso i suppose it's stable17:29
philiKONtwisted is obviously a huge framework17:29
philiKONand twisted.web2 is just one part of it17:29
philiKONso there's obviously a benefit of using twisted17:29
philiKONe.g. when you need other things from the twisted env17:29
philiKON(e.g. having the twisted reactor do some other stuff than http)17:29
boraxOf course. For example I'm currently using the "scheduler" package, based on Twisted. Can I do the same thing easily with Paste ?17:30
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philiKONpaste is purely a collection of wsgi tools17:31
philiKONtwisted and paste aren't comparable on that level17:31
philiKONthey're apples and oranges17:31
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boraxWell, so I suppose that Paste can only be used for HTTP protocol...17:32
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philiKONthat's the point17:33
boraxSo may I use Twisted or ZServer as soon as I need FTP access ?17:34
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tarekHi J1m, i think there's a small bug that can occur in zc.recipe.cmmi17:59
tarekIf this recipe is subclassed into another recipe (that's my case), it might fail because it creates the location folder with a direct "os.mkdir()" call17:59
tarekI would like to propose a change there to make sure the folder doesn't exists already18:00
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pyqwerHi, I have problems migrating things from an older version of my app to a newer one.18:16
pyqwerWhen exactly is an object "broken"? And what can I do to make it functional again?18:16
tarekpyqwer, since the ZODB is based on pickles, it depends on the class definitions. When the code is changed, the object can become therefore broken18:17
tarekYou need to create a script that transforms the old objects into the new one. This can be done by exporting the data in a neutral format for instance18:18
pyqwertarek: Ah, ok, yes, I added a class for my object (let it inherit from Contained).18:19
pyqwerThat's probably the reason.18:19
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J1mtarek, +118:20
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mgedminpyqwer: I *think* the only way to make an object broken is to move/remove a class18:27
mgedmin"broken" in the sense that you get the BrokenObject18:27
mgedminthere are more ways to make your app no longer work with existing databases18:27
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pyqwerYup, I managed the broken-object problem: I exported some parts of the object that did not change and imported it again with the new package.19:36
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tavanyone know how IOBTrees compare to OOBTrees when the key is a python long as opposed to an int ?20:09
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LeefmcIs this the right place to ask a couple general probing questions about Zope3?20:21
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philiKONbut don't ask questions about questions :)20:24
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mgedmintav: aren't IOBTrees limited to 32-bit int keys?20:28
LeefmcphiliKON: ;), i just had to make sure i was in the right channel. People often hang you if you are in the wrong place.. so you gatta figure it out somehow heh. Anyway.. onto my question.20:29
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mgedminmakes sense -- some project have #foo and #foo-dev, and get angry when you ask userish questions in the -dev channel20:30
LeefmcI often look for python cms', and really Plone is the onlything out there. However, i am far from a professional web dev of any sort, so i don't have a 40-100$ a month service that allows me to run Zope. I've heard talk that Zope3 is working to alleviate the problem of "Zope not running on shared servers", is this true?20:32
philiKONyes and no20:32
philiKONyou can run zope3 within apache20:32
philiKONeven plone, actually20:32
philiKONbut i haven't heard of any serious deployment like this y et20:33
benjiLeefmc: as for Zope 3 hosting, has a $20/mo plan that does a reasonable job of running small Zope 3 apps (or anything else for that matter)20:33
rockybut this is not really the issue here... trying to run plone on a shared hosting service will have huge resource issues20:34
rockyso possible, sure ... practical? probably not20:35
Leefmcrocky: Exactly20:35
Leefmcrocky: K ty20:35
mgedminI fail to see any difference between Zope 2 and Zope 3 wrt hosting issues20:35
mgedminyou need long-lived Python processes with huge RAM requirements in any case20:35
LeefmcI was basically asking if Zope3 was being developed to alleviate that problem, to essentially open up the plone market to the general audience20:36
Leefmcmgedmin: Yea, but i don't know any Zope at all :)20:36
mgedminnow you know :-)20:36
Leefmcmgedmin: Aside from it being a bit of a resource hog, which is why i never touched any knowledge of it20:36
Leefmcmgedmin: So i was here asking if Zope3 was the same20:36
mgedminzope 3 is currently a very powerful and flexible web app development framework for experts20:37
mgedminit's not very oriented to casual users20:37
LeefmcAt the moment, im hoping for Pagoda to fill in the void..20:37
Leefmcmgedmin: Well im actually a casual python dev, looking for a cms based in python so i can contribute, module develop, etc.20:37
mgedminz3.ext is a recently-announced cms built on top of zope 320:38
mgedminbut I don't know anything at all about it, other than name20:38
* mgedmin is not very interested in CMSes, so cannot help much20:38
LeefmcFrom my standpoint, i want a Python based cms to be powerful, and have low enough resource usage, to compete with php based cms.20:39
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LeefmcFor the 'general' market, Zope simply can't take care of it at this point and time.. or so i hear.20:40
Leefmcthough thats not what it seems to be developed for, i understand this. :)20:40
LeefmcAnyway, thanks for the info.20:41
benjiLeefmc: you might be interested in
Leefmcbenji: Its built off of Zope3, doesn't it require Zope and then essentially be useless to the 'general' audience i speak of?20:43
benjiright, it's built with Z3, but I don't see why that makes it useless to a general audience20:44
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Leefmcbenji: Well as we've been discussing here, a Zope requirement is too costly for the lower end audience. That audience is required imo to make a cms big. Ie drupal and whatnot.20:45
Leefmceg rather.20:45
benjithere's nothing in "a cms" that requires it to be big20:45
benjiand there's certainly nothing that requires an app built with the Zope libraries to be big20:46
regebroLeefmc: "and have low enough resource usage, to compete with php based cms."20:48
regebrophp is designed to be loaded once per request.20:48
regebroPython isn't.20:48
regebroOne effect that has is that you pretty much can't run python web apps an a PHP-style LAMP-host.20:49
Leefmcbenji: Well from my standpoint, im talking about the success of the cms. I dont want a "big cms" in terms of junk shoved in the cms (eg php-nuke), just the community behind it. Which often requires being open to as many people as possible.20:49
benjithen the statement seems to be "Python isn't sutible for small web apps"; I don't agree, but also don't care to argue about that20:49
Leefmci agree with benji20:49
regebroNeither Zope2 nor Zope3 has "junk shoved" in it.20:50
regebroIf we talk about plone, then it is way slower than a CMS should be. But that is not Zope2's fault.20:50
Leefmcregebro: Obviously they have different requirements, but I for one will always be looking for a way to open the python market to cms. I often see people scoff at the idea of python needing to be faster, saying that its not designed to be a speed demon. This may be true, but i see no reason to not desire to improve where python stands, to strive for the best. :)20:51
Leefmcregebro: And i never ment to say Zope does have junk shoved in it.20:51
Leefmcregebro: I dont even know zope, so i wouldn't know either way.20:51
regebroLeefmc: Right. Sure, python is not superfast, but neither is PHP, so that's not the problem here I would think.20:52
regebroThe problem is that you usually can't deploy it in a normal LAMP environment because it requires running servers (true for all Python apps, and nothing you can do anything about) and more memory.20:53
Leefmcregebro: True, i was just using it as an example. Im simply trying to find a place to support/contribute to that is going in the direction i would like20:53
regebroWell, if you are talking about python webb app frameworsk, zope3 is the shit, and it goes in the direction you *should* like it to go. :)20:54
regebroor at least zope3 + grok.20:54
Leefmcregebro: True, and i dont know web dev enough to argue semantics involving hosting of different types, etc. I just try to find ways to do things. I have a small VPS on a shared system, so thats the direction i want to go. :)20:54
Leefmcregebro: Coming from drupal and such. I see the biggest market in a cms that can run on anything, so i'll always be trying to strive for that.. or atleast find that.20:55
Leefmcregebro: And ofcourse, desiring Python to somehow fit the bill hehe20:55
regebroFor VPS's only memory would be an issue, I would guess.20:55
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Leefmcregebro: Yea, i have enough of a VPS that i could run Zope if i'd like, but thats not the point hehe.20:56
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Leefmcregebro: Anyway thanks. And just to close on this note, i am not saying anything against plone or zope, im sure they do what they are designed for, and do it great. Im simply looking for something slightly different :)20:57
regebroOK, then I'm stumped to what the issue is. :) Again: You can't deploy any Python-app on a pure LAMP-host, because you can't loads the python-executable with every request.20:58
regebroThen you are not looking for a Python web app framework.20:59
Leefmcregebro: Well i'm not looking for a pure LAMP host hosting python ofcourse. I am looking for lower usage to handle it as easily as possible. Ie, by default (no vps) my host can handle python, and with a bit of toying, turbogears and django, but not zope.21:00
Leefmcregebro: I understand zope is different, but thats not the point.21:01
regebroLeefmc: Why can't it handle Zope?21:01
Leefmcregebro: hah, don't ask me :p21:02
Leefmcregebro: I'm not the web developer here ;)21:02
regebroLeefmc: Why are you claiming it can't?21:02
Leefmcregebro: It just doesn't by default. With a VPS on them then you can, but i can anything on a vps so thats not really the point heh21:02
Leefmcregebro: Because they don't allow it.21:03
Leefmcregebro: Resource requirements as they say.21:03
regebroWho are "they"?21:03
Leefmcregebro: Lowend Dreamhost21:03
regebroCan you point me towards a link of what type of hosting service you have?21:04
Leefmcregebro: A few have gotten away with it, but from what i've seen its just a bit hard to get away with it on the shared side of things. I ofcourse, as said, have a vps but whatever heh.21:04
Leefmcregebro: loi, k 1 sec21:05
Leefmcregebro: Though all you need to think of is standard lowend shared hosting21:05
regebroLeefmc: OK, I found a page for a $6/month hosting.21:06
regebroWhat I notice there is that they don't seem to have any limit on your systems memory usage. I don't know if this is common, but if they don't, then yes, a Zope-instance would happily chew up loads of memory and all their other customers wouldn't get one.21:07
Leefmcnot really sure what we're debating here :o21:08
regebroSo yes, I understand if they don't accept Zope in this case. Especially since that would include Plone. :)21:09
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Leefmcanyway.. imma get back to work heh21:10
Leefmcpython, mm21:10
Leefmcluckily i don't have to deal with php .. ;P21:10
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regebroSo, I didn't get to do my end-statement. :)21:11
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LeefmcI don't get your second point though?21:14
LeefmcAre you saying times are going to change to support more than LAMP?21:14
regebroI didn't understand that sentence.21:15
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regebro(Any way, my point was that not allowing zope3 but allowing other python frameworks is unfounded, and that there is in fact nothing that says that a CMS has to run on LAMP-hosts to be successful).21:16
Leefmcregebro: well you have to agree that the majority of web users out there use cheap hosts. Only people who are atleast remotely serious go beyond a shared host. And most, if not all, shared hosts are LAMP and/or Only LAMP. So by you bringing up other ASP & Java examples, are you saying you feel times are changing to support more than LAMP by default?21:16
regebroNo, I'm saying that PHP and LAMP-hosting are for people who are not serious.21:18
regebroPython are for serious people and will always be problematic to run on LAMP hosts.21:18
regebroWhat I'm questioning is the claim that there is some sort of difference in this matter between Zope3 and Turbogears(Django et al.21:20
Leefmcregebro: True, but i do think the more popular python gets for web dev, the most hosts will support it, and via that, we can hope for a snowball affect.21:20
regebroLeefmc: Sure, we can hope.21:20
Leefmci really need to get back to work21:20
regebroBut I don't think we can ever assume that serous applications are runnable on $5/month hosts.21:20
regebroOK, see ya21:20
Leefmcregebro: True, but i do hope we can manage to get the price for a full python enabled host, with decent bandiwidth and storage, to drop below 40$21:21
Leefmcbandiwidth.. heh21:21
regebroLeefmc: OK, I have no idea how the market looks today, so I can21:22
regebrocan't say21:22
Leefmcregebro: Neither can i, honestly21:22
Leefmcregebro: I've just found it to be the case when looking for hosts that you always get more bang for your buck with php, and ofcourse there are reasons for this, but i'd like it to change as much as possible :)21:23
Leefmcregebro: And obviously, i think we have more change possible21:23
Leefmcregebro: Anyway, imma shutup now, or i'll be here all day haha. *last words*21:23
regebroLeefmc: Well, PHP, as mentioned, is designed to be loaded per request to interpret a html file with PHP.21:23
regebroOf course you are going to get more bang per buck with that.21:24
regebroPHP is designed from the bottom up to be a small script that replaces certain parts of the webpage.21:24
regebroIF that's what you want: Use PHP.21:24
Leefmcregebro: Never. You're the devil!21:25
Leefmcregebro: :o21:25
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regebroLeefmc: You are not going to be able to use Python as a PHP-replacement. Because it isn't.21:25
Leefmcregebro: My friend, python can save the world. hehe21:25
regebroLeefmc: Yes. But not for free.21:26
Leefmcregebro: And it'll never replace php, but i hope we can lessen the php hold dramatically.21:26
regebroPython is coming on all fronts.21:26
Leefmcregebro: There is a super low end that python will never touch, but python is rather high end at the moment, and i simply dont feel it needs to be.21:26
Leefmcregebro: Note  also want python to generate flash. haha :o21:29
Leefmcregebro: (it actually can a little bit, but i never put serious effort into Ming)21:30
regebroWell, there ya go.21:30
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