IRC log of #zope3-dev for Friday, 2008-04-11

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regebroMorning all. Just a wild idea: Should there be a Zope conference?10:29
regebroI mean, there is to few Zope people at PyCon/EuroPython, and the Plone Conference is.... well. PLone.10:30
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regebroI'm asking here before I blog about it, because maybe it's a really stupid idea for some reason. :)10:30
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ktwilight_regebro, would be great if there's a zope conference :)11:22
baijumregebro, +1 for a "Zope Conference"11:36
regebroCool, so far so good. :)11:37
timteregebro: hmm, you added me on twitter, that is just a test twitter though, I never use it  :)11:38
regebrotimte: OK. :)11:38
regebroThat just means I won't see any updates, so. :)11:41
timteregebro: just so you don't get dissapointed when you wonder why you don't get to know what timte is doing every other hour  :)11:43
regebrono pb. :)11:43
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benji_zagy, you seem to be having problems :)15:36
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zagyhope that's stable now :/15:39
zagysorry for the traffic15:39
benjiheh; no problem15:40
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jayarajhi guys is there any way to know in which .fs (or the zodb name) an object is stored? i am in the middle of a prototype illustrating the multiple db files in zope3...15:49
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timtejayaraj: do you use zeo?15:52
jayarajand wot if i use zeo?15:52
timteout of the box zope only uses one Data.fs file15:53
timtedo you use mount points?15:53
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jayarajAFAIK  in zope3 we dont need mount points15:54
jayarajits a zope2 thing15:54
timtejayaraj: then, what .fs are you talking about?15:54
jayaraji have configured another in my zope.conf15:55
jayarajoh currently i am using zeo... thats right15:56
jayarajbut i need to try multiple .fs without zeo15:57
timtewithout zeo you can only have one15:58
jayarajtimte are you sure? :(15:58
timtejayaraj: what are you trying to achieve?15:59
jayarajmy plan is to get rid of zeo... and will be using the data.fs over nfs15:59
bigkevmcdto what benefit?16:00
jayarajfault tolerance!16:00
benjijayaraj: that... will likely be painful16:00
benjias to your original question, here's how you find the name of the DB an object is stored in: obj._p_jar.db().database_name16:01
jayarajeven if we have identical multiple zeo clients zeo server is a one point16:02
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jayarajyea i have been looking at persistance module.. so i was in the right dirrection thank you benji16:03
timteI'm not sure what solutions there are for fault tolerance. But perhaps geocept.ZEORaid would be something.16:05
benjijayaraj: if you need hot backups of your ZODB(s), you should look into ZRS and (the still very, very new) zeoraid16:05
benjijayaraj: oh, and there's the ever-popular rsync-the-Data.fs-once-in-a-while16:07
jayaraji am looking for the options i can have16:08
bigkevmcdI guess it's not for very big Data.fs files?16:08
jayarajand dont you feel ... that a zeo server is vulnerable to crash ?16:09
benjijayaraj: no more (or less) than any other machine; that's why I use ZRS ;)16:09
timteof course it is, but it's very rare and you take backups16:09
timteand if you cache most of your pages anonymous will see your site even if the backend is down16:10
timteso you need to have high demands if you need to replicate16:10
benjibigkevmcd: rsync?  I don't use it much so don't know much about its limitations, just including it because I hear of people using it for this purpose16:11
bigkevmcdrsync is great16:11
bigkevmcdbut, loading large Data.fs files over NFS wouldn't be much fun16:11
jayarajZRS is not open source!16:11
ktwilight_bigkevmcd, why's that?16:11
benjibigkevmcd: regarding NFS, very true16:11
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benjijayaraj: I know, my company sells it ;)16:12
jayarajwhy NFS is not good to handle big D.fs16:14
timtetakes forever16:15
zagyjayaraj: also, how would you let multiple zope clients use the data.fs?16:15
timtecopying data over network takes a while, even copying on the harddirsk is slow16:15
ktwilight_timte, on a 100mbit port? any optimisations made?16:15
jayarajyea i see some locking problems...16:16
bigkevmcdZEO handles the locking for you16:16
jayarajyea thats right16:17
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* zagy still wonders what the problem with zeo is16:17
zagyI even use zeo if the database is on the very same server16:17
jayarajzagy how can we assure fault tolerance with one instances of zeo server16:20
zagyhow can we assure fault tolerance with one instance of nfs server?16:20
jayarajbingo ..good questine16:21
bigkevmcdthis sounds like a brave attempt at overarchitecting a solution16:21
ktwilight_nfs is just a simple system that has many shortcomings16:22
ktwilight_our goal is to build a cluster as a failover solution. nfs doesn't provide it per se, but glusterfs (a system similar to nfs) can be the solution, and that's what we are trying to test16:23
jayarajwell let us be there any way to have multiple zeo server to handle same data.fs16:23
zagyyou *can't* use multiple zopes on one data.fs at teh same time16:23
zagyfor fault tolerance there use ZRS or try zeoraid16:23
zagyor just make frequent backups with a hotfailover16:24
ktwilight_yup, those are definitely considered.16:24
bigkevmcdktwilight_: are you and jayaraj working on the same thing?16:24
ktwilight_bigkevmcd, yup ;)16:24
bigkevmcdI'd setup a failover Zeo server, that was synchronising the data.fs from the primary zeo server16:25
bigkevmcduse a shared-ip, and have the zeo clients connect to that16:25
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jayarajthat sounds good16:26
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benjiyou can specify more than one zeo server for a DB and all will be tried, no need for shared IP16:27
ktwilight_benji, yup, that's also considered16:27
jayarajbut syncing is expensive when the db is large16:27
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benjitrue, moving lots of data is expensive; it's best to keep it continuously synced16:29
bigkevmcdjayaraj: rsync minimises the data16:29
timteso you should go with ZRS, right benji?  :)16:29
benjitimte: if I had important data and even a little bit of money16:30
bigkevmcdif you've got the budget, a shared disk would be good, as long as the secondary zeo server does a STONITH16:30
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jayarajso syncronization is the only way.... and we may need to come up with an effective soln for that....16:40
benji"only" is a strong word, but without knowing much more about your needs, it's the most obvious thing to do16:43
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ktwilight_benji, spot on :)16:48
bigkevmcdHow big is the Data.fs currently?16:48
ktwilight_we havent got that far yet, but we are expecting over 500GB16:50
bigkevmcdBased upon what metrics?16:51
ktwilight_on the metrics that we've found, of course.16:52
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ktwilight_we'll be harvesting a lot of data, it's part of our needs16:52
ktwilight_maybe we are over-estimating, but we should at least be prepared, rather than sitting in the dark hitting walls in the future.16:53
benjiktwilight_: if any of the individual data items are going to be very large, you'll probably want to check out the blob support in the up-coming ZODB 3.9 release16:53
ktwilight_hence the whole experiments that we are doing.16:53
J1mbenji, blobs are available in 3.8.16:54
ktwilight_benji, great! thanks for the heads up :)16:54
benjiJ1m: oh, really? didn't know16:54
benjioh, I'm thinking of the new pack code16:54
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ktwilight_another main concern is, it's possible that zodb will not be able to cater to our needs for metadata storage and proecssing. which we may need to use other database types like vertica16:56
ktwilight_so yea, lots of considerations are in the pipeline :)16:57
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vimes656is it possible in Zope3 to access an item of a container directly from ZPT?17:47
vimes656if I try context/key in ZPT I get forbidden attribute: get17:49
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ccomb´╗┐vimes656´╗┐ you're probably missing a permission on IReadContainer17:55
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malthewth Upload failed (403): You are not allowed to edit 'z3c.formwidget.query' package information18:06
malthetarek: do you know what this means?18:09
maltheI'm using ``mupload``.18:09
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vimes656ccomb: thanks, now I don't get the forbidden attribute error but I still can't do what I want18:14
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vimes656ccomb: I would something like container/a/b to be container['a'].b18:16
vimes656ccomb:  have to read more about ZPT syntax or use a python expression18:17
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ignasvimes656: emm, do you have <class> in the zcml for the object you are trying to access "b" on?18:20
vimes656ignas: no... I have only the container18:21
ignasit probably is not a zpt problem, but rather a permission problem, forbiden attributes are thrown when you are trying to access an attribute that has no security information defined for it18:21
ignas<disclaimer>i can be totaly wrong though</disclaimer>18:21
vimes656ignas: actually I didn't want to make interfaces for the objects in the container because I have too many objects18:23
vimes656ignas: is it possible to declare permissions in zcml for object which don't have interfaces?18:24
ignasvimes656: yes, you will have to list all the attributes you want to allow access to though18:25
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vimes656ignas: ok, I'll try18:26
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vimes656ignas: I did as you told me and it's working, thanks18:52
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tarekmalthe, back19:24
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malthetarek: so it's quite funny19:24
tareklooks like your are not the package owner19:24
maltheif you put, say, Alpha instead of Beta in your, --- you get a 403.19:25
malthein the classification section19:25
malthebecause appearently alpha is not a state or whatever19:25
malthecompletely misleading error; I only knew because I tried manually to register my PKG_INFO on pypi19:25
tarekoh i see, the classifier did not exists19:26
maltheyeah that's it19:26
maltheit's a first upload, so I would always be the owner.19:26
tarekPyPI is hard on this, it raises an error yeah19:26
maltheyes, but a completely wrong error19:26
malthesomeone probably put a bare except19:26
tarekoh I see19:27
tarekmaybe so19:27
tarekI am trying to make this change to a simple warning although19:27
tarekso the package gets registered and the given classifier ignored19:27
tarekso does mupload/mregister works fine, besides ?19:27
* mgedmin hates vocabularies19:28
malthemgedmin: :-)19:28
malthetarek: yes, works great19:28
mgedminwhat do you mean I can't put the same value twice under different titles and tokens?19:28
maltheI use it always19:28
* mgedmin screams19:28
* mgedmin screams abuse19:28
mgedminwell, I guess there's a good reason19:29
tarekmalthe, cool ! my patch is still waiting for being included in python 2.6 but hopefully mupload and mregister will be merged in the regular commands one day19:29
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malthethat will be a good day in python land19:29
tarekmalthe, do you use another egg server beside pypi at this time ?19:30
maltheyes, we have an internal egg server here19:30
maltheworks very well with PSC19:30
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tarekI have an extra "release" command in another package that decides, upon the egg name where to register and upload it (a list of pypi server, using a regexpr)19:32
tarekso the same package can be released in several place in one command19:32
tarekdo you think this could be useful, added in iw.dist ?19:32
tarekthe idea is to define rules in a global cfg file, to define where thing goes19:33
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jayarajhey guys can any one tell me wots wrong in this code... i was trying to access multiple dbs ..
jayaraji get this.... 'InvalidObjectReference: A new object is reachable from multiple databases. Won't try to guess which one was correct!' wot does it mean...19:47
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ignasjayaraj: so you get site manager from connection1, then add folder from connection2 to the site manager19:55
jayaraji am just trying to make a folder in db '2' and register it  as a utility19:58
ignasas a local utility19:58
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ignasso in db1 you have a reference to an object in db219:58
ignaseither add a proxy object in db1 that will be the real local utility while retrieving folder from db2 by name instead of by reference19:59
jayarajbut it happens only when i register it ... but the error is in the get_connection line20:00
ignassiteManager is an object, and it has to keep references to all the local utilities one way or another20:00
ignaswhy do you think so?20:00
ignasi can't see the get_connection line in the traceback20:00
jayaraji commented rest of the lines and tested it20:01
ignasyou get the error during the commit20:01
jayarajyea thats true too20:01
ignasi think you are getting the connection in some weird way20:02
ignasdid you find it in the documentation?20:02
ignasmaybe getUtility(IDatabase, name="2")20:03
jayarajyea i have looked at the IRC chat history... and i followed wot j1m said to srichter
ignaswould be a bit better20:03
ignasbut i don't really know anything about that20:05
jayarajyea in another conversation i saw him saying conn.get_connection('2') is the right way20:05
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ignashmm, it seems that this way of doing it updates the db connections of the object20:05
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ignashmm, very strange20:11
ignasbut i am not really sure why just opening the connection number 2 breaks it20:11
jayarajyea i just dont get any idea20:12
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jayarajJ1m, is there any thing wrong in this... i am just trying to connect to anoter db...
J1mthere error message says it all. Read it. If it's too confusing, don't use multiple databases.20:22
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ignasjayaraj: you should remove the code that is not being executed20:24
ignasJ1m: his problem is that even if he is not adding any objects, he still gets the error it seems20:25
J1mThat is impossible.20:25
jayarajbut its wots happening with me20:25
ignasi thought so but jayaraj is telling that he is getting the error with only the code that does get_connection('2')20:26
J1mObviouslu, he;s wrong.20:27
J1mlook at the trace back.20:27
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ignasjayaraj: are you restarting your application after you remove the lines after get_connection?20:28
jayarajof course... i even removed the old db.fs files20:29
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jayarajignas ^20:39
ignaswhat is the context of the view ?20:40
jayarajyea mean the obj?20:40
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ignasthe object you are registering the debug view for20:41
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jayarajyea its a browserpage object20:42
ignasno, not the view itself20:42
ignascould you paste the zcml declaration for the view20:42
ignaslisppaste6: url20:43
lisppaste6To use the lisppaste bot, visit and enter your paste.20:43
ignasit's a bit more convenient, because it puts the url into the channel automatically20:44
jayarajignas, i think its some where else.... and its very late... bye 4 now thanks alot... and will be telling you if i find it...21:00
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regebroTake the Zope conference survey:
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J1mregebro, I hope lots of people respond!22:48
J1mI did.22:48
regebroJ1m: Cool!22:49
regebroI got 20 responses so far. It's a free account, so I can only take a 100 responses anyway. :)22:49
regebroIf I get 50 I think we can say that it's a useful size to draw good conclusions.22:50
J1mI should have added in the comments that I'd prefer a dedicated conference to a separate track.  I tend to think of the Plone conference as a dedicated Zope conference. :)22:53
J1mseparate track at pycon, that is.22:53
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