IRC log of #zope3-dev for Friday, 2008-05-02

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philiKONJ1m: ping16:22
J1min a meeting16:22
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tarek does not exists anymore ?16:29
tarekI wanted to take a look at the css, but it seems to be gone16:29
J1mtarek, yes, it didn't survive the crash.16:30
tarekoh ok...16:30
J1mwe didn't bother with it because benji didn't think anyone was using it.16:30
philiKONthere's http://zopebuildbot.whq.gocept.com16:30
philiKONJ1m: back from a meeting?16:31
J1mnot yet? I'll let you know. :)16:31
tarekJ1m, philiKON ok thanks guys16:31
philiKONJ1m: thx :)16:31
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J1mok, philiKON, what's up?16:33
TheuniJ1m: you pinged me a while ago. is that still current?16:34
J1mTheuni, no16:34
philiKONJ1m: i'd like to ask a few questions about zope.publisher.paste16:35
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benjitarek: I contributed a version of the CSS to's buildbots, you can look there16:35
philiKONJ1m: so, basically, the application object is generic, the publication is "your application".16:36
philiKONJ1m: i suppose you do bootstrap configuration (zcml) and database setup in your publication's __init__ then?16:36
J1mIf you want.16:36
J1mDid you notice my new key upload program?16:36
philiKONwhere do *you* do it?16:36
philiKONyes, i saw it :)16:36
philiKONit's a neat example16:37
philiKONbut it doesn't have zodb nor zcml setup16:37
J1mNot that that is a model of how apps should be built, but for a one page app, its a readonable hack, especially since I was/am pressed for time.16:37
philiKONright. i would probably have done it as a pure wsgi app then :)16:38
philiKONbut as said, it's a nice demo for this16:38
tarekbenji, Ah ok thanks16:38
J1mEventually, I'd like to create a publisher that provides a bobonic experience, where you put simple apps in modules.16:38
philiKONanyway, i wonder, when you use zope.publisher.paste, do you do zcml and zodb configuration at all, and if so, where?16:38
J1mwell, I like bein able to rely on publisher semantics.16:38
J1mHad I written a pure wsgi app, then I'd have had to deal with the cgi module directly.16:39
J1mThe publisher provides a fair bit of value, imo.16:39
philiKONthat's true16:39
philiKONrequest + response16:39
philiKONanyway, not really my question16:39
philiKONi'm just wondering about a good pattern for doing zcml and zodb setup16:39
J1mI do want to implement a minimal publisher so as not to bring in lots of extra dependencies.16:39
philiKONi like the simplicity and flexibility of zope.publisher.paste16:39
J1mme too. :) It unties the gordian knot of etc.16:40
J1mOf course, it provdes a base for othe frameworks.16:40
J1mBTW, I think, as I've stated for a long time, ZConfig has caused a lot of the grief.16:41
J1mBecause of it's inflexible schema management.16:41
philiKONbeing able to pass configuration around the way pastedeploy does it is nice16:42
J1myes, up to a point.16:42
philiKONi suppose we'll do the zcml setup in the publication then16:42
philiKONit seems the logical place16:42
J1mIt would be nice, imo, if the application had fill access to the configuration db.16:42
J1mThe ways it's done, you almost have to call out to separate configuration files.16:43
J1malthough you could have options who's values are ZConfig snippets.16:43
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* philiKON doesn't like zcml-in-buildout.cfg or zconfig-in-buildout.cfg16:43
philiKONor paste.ini-in-buildout.cfg for that matter16:44
philiKONbut i suppose that's a matter of taste and deployment method16:44
J1mso, for example, you could probably have a zodb option that had the ZConfig that defined the databases.16:44
philiKONwas thinking about that too16:44
J1mI understand your reaction, although it obviously doesn;t bothe me as much as it does you.16:44
J1mI *really* like having everything in one place.16:44
philiKONi understand that of course16:45
J1mTo me, that's worth micing syntaxes, which, fortunately, config-parser makes pretty easy.16:45
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philiKONand it doesn't bother me a lot because *i* know where to look for things and where to modify things16:45
philiKONothe rpeople don't16:45
philiKONsooooo many people start messing with parts16:45
philiKONi've seen it over and over and over16:45
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philiKONanyway, not the discussion i want to get it into :)16:46
J1mYeah, I guess that's an editcation issue.16:46
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J1mYeah, I guess that's an education issue.16:46
philiKONyup, in a way16:46
philiKONit's also an issue of what people are generally used to and what buildout does16:46
J1mI guess there should be a greater emphasis up front in the buildout docs.16:46
J1mThere are lots of systems that manage configuration for people.16:47
J1mThis is not a new concept.16:47
philiKONyeah. debian has quite a lot of configuration file generation as well16:47
philiKONwhich always confuses the heck out of me when i want to change soething once a year :)16:47
J1mIt's the price of automation.16:47
philiKONanyway, thanks for the input on zope.publsiher.paste16:48
J1mIt really made writing this key app a lot easier.16:48
philiKONwe're considering using it for grok's wsgi story16:48
J1mI wish I had the bobonic flavor.16:48
philiKONheh, right16:48
J1mwe really need to do
J1mI'm just soooo pressed for time.16:49
J1mBut, back to simple apps.16:49
philiKONwhat would that flavour of ...paste do?16:49
philiKONjust configure zope3's standard publication?16:49
J1mIt would deal with the richer request-selection semantics there, like xml-rpc etc.16:50
philiKONah, right16:50
philiKONmaybe that'll come up as we deal with grok's wsgi story16:50
J1mfor simple apps, I'd like to have something as simple as bobo used to be.16:50
philiKONgrok is pretty simple :)16:50
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J1mand I want simple apps to start quickly enough that they could be delployed as cgi.16:51
J1mThe key upload script really should be a cgi script.16:51
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J1mIs there a cgi wsgi wrapper?16:52
philiKONyeah, i think so16:52
philiKONin wsgiref16:52
J1mcertainly writing one would be simple enough.16:52
philiKONallows you to mount any wsgi app in a cgi server16:52
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* philiKON goes back to sprinting16:52
philiKONthanks again!16:53
J1mBut the sample publisher in the test took about .6 seconds just to import on a not too slow machine.16:53
J1mmainly, I assume because of all of the zope.publisher dependencies.16:53
philiKONregarding the bobonic flavour, are you planning on working with the repoze guys a bit on that?16:53
J1mnot really16:54
philiKONi haven't really looked at this, but they do have some sort of primitive bobo-like thing16:54
philiKONi see16:54
* philiKON doesn't really know much of the repoze internals anyway16:54
* philiKON should find the time to look at it16:54
J1mI think their focus is very much on zope 2, which is fine.16:54
J1mI really want to do something smaller.16:55
philiKONi think chris wants to fit zope 3 into the picutre as well16:55
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J1mI think repoz is a bigger project than it needs to be. <shrug>16:55
mcdoncwe'd like to use a z3 publisher16:55
philiKONthere he is :)16:55
philiKONhey mcdonc16:55
mcdonchey philiKON16:55
mcdoncit would be ideal if a newer publisher didn't delegate to the request for traversal; we'd likely just use it then16:56
J1mmcdonc, you don't have to delegate to the request for traversal.16:56
J1mYou could do traversal yourself in the getApplication call or in the first TraverseName call.16:57
J1mThe traveral data is available and manipulatable.16:58
J1mThis was to allow traversers to consune multiple names.16:58
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mcdoncso what's the relationship between that and what i mentioned  at
mcdonc(zope.publisher's "publish" function)16:59
J1mI didn't response there because I had forgotten that you can traverse the entire path in one go, if you wish.17:00
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J1mThe publication *can* do all the traversal if it wants.17:01
J1mI don't particularly want to make it do all the traversal.17:01
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mcdoncmaybe i'm missing it, but it seems like that top-level "publish" function is always used during publishing and is not pluggable?17:03
mcdoncone reason "obob" exists is because in a bare wsgi context we dont yet have a "request"17:04
mcdoncwe only have the WSGI environment17:04
mcdoncand our "publication" is actually the thing that manufactures the request17:04
mcdoncbut maybe i'm just off in the weeds, it's been a few weeks since i looked at it17:05
J1mright, it is not pluggable, but the request object has an API for manipulating the traversal stack. So, for example, a publication's getApplication method could use this API to consume the traversal stack, doing the traversal itself.  The object it returns could then be the result of that traversal.17:05
projekt01mcdonc, there is a pluggable traverser in z3c.traverser probably this could give you hints about the traversal step consume part17:07
mcdonci'll need to see how it would be possible to use that publishing dance against something that implements z2's request iface17:09
mcdoncor maybe the publication will need to adapt it at each step17:10
philiKONmcdonc: see five.publication in my sandbox17:21
philiKONmcdonc: it's a publication for zope.publisher that runs Zope217:21
philiKONmcdonc: well, tries to ;)17:21
mcdoncobob "helper" (akin to a publication) assumes there is no request, just the wsgi environ, which works pretty well for us because it means we just create whatever kind of request during helper setup using the environ based on the kind of app we're serving (z3 or z2).17:22
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J1mTheuni, ayt?18:25
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J1mtlotze, ?18:46
J1mhow many zeo cache fixed did you commit?18:47
J1msorry yes18:47
J1mI want to merge them to the 3.8 branch.18:48
J1mI know of 1.18:48
Theunilet me have a look at the checkin log18:48
Theunione larger part was the test i added18:48
Theunifrom the changelog i suspect: the fix for #98275 and the problem with objects larger then the total cache size18:50
Theunii'm still having a look at the svn log though18:50
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TheuniJ1m: #181712 is not ported to 3.8 yet as the situation is different than on the turnk18:54
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J1mIs that a launchpad #?18:55
Theuniissue 98275 was ported to 3.8 already18:55
Theuniand before that i didn't touch the cache afair18:56
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J1mk, I'll port
Theuniit's the only obvious one i see18:57
J1mDo you know if there are any signal handlers in zope.server?18:59
J1mI don't see any.18:59
* Theuni looks19:02
* J1m tries to figure out how to understand the zope 3 shutdown process. :)19:02
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Theunithat's a meta activity!19:03
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Theunithis reminds me so of 2003 ...19:03
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Theunithats threadedasync, right/19:06
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J1mI think I'll just add a print to FileStorage.close and see if it's called. :)19:06
J1mthreadedasync shouldn't have anything to do with signals.19:06
Theunithat's an area i'm not too familiar with19:06
Theunii mean. the main loop i found is in
Theuniand that comes from threadedasync19:07
J1mI'm 80% sure we don't shutdown cleanly.19:07
J1mIf we don't, I've found a source of cache corruption.19:07
Theuniprobably the scan() method then should work a bit harder to detect this state19:08
J1mI doubt the format has enough redundant data for it to recover.19:09
J1mwell, I suppose it could recover what it's already scanned and mark everything else as free.19:09
Theunidetection would be my major concern19:09
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J1mwell, it detects corruption now.19:10
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Theuniit might be nice if it detects it earlier19:11
Theunior maybe we're talking about different symptoms19:12
J1mweird, I just tried to bzip a cache file and it only got a tiny bit smaller.19:12
J1mwhich does not compute.19:12
TheuniDo you think there might currently be a way to corrupt the cache, let scan succeed with faulty data and only fail much later?19:12
J1mNo. I don't have many opinions yet. :)19:13
Theuniwhat overall size was the cache file?19:13
J1mBut I think it's possible that, if nothing else, when scan detects a problem, it could keep what it already scanned successfully and mark everything else as free.19:14
J1mI had a 4GB cache file.19:14
Theunithen a tiny bit smaller isn't much :)19:14
J1mIt compressed to about 3.9G.19:14
J1mIt compressed to about 3.8G.19:14
J1mI was hoping for much more.19:15
Theunii would have thought that to be more too19:15
Theunimaybe pickles aren't that redundant ...19:15
Theunibut still19:15
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J1mI suspect many images because we aren't using blobs yet.19:15
Theunii don't see any signal handling in any zope.* packages19:17
Theunizdrun does something19:17
Theunibut i'm not sure thats relevant19:17
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TheuniJ1m: the ClassProvides descriptor seems to be broken for subclasses21:29
Theuniif class A provides an interface then a subclass of A will list __provides__ when you call `dir` but accessing __provides__ will raise an attributeerror21:29
J1mNo, it works perfectly21:29
Theunishould we consider that a bug?21:29
Theunican you enlighten me why?21:30
J1mdepending on how you interpret dir, dir is broken.21:30
J1mClassProvides makes declarations for the class, **not** the subclasses.21:31
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J1mThe descriptor it uses intentionally raises AttributeError if used on a subclass.21:31
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J1mdescriptors are allowed to raise AttributeError. Code that finds a descriptor and assumes that an attribute is available are Broken.21:32
J1mwith a capital B. :)21:32
J1mNot everyone agrees with me regarding whether or not these declarations should be inherited.21:35
Theunilooks like python doesn't ;)21:36
J1mAs Antonin Scalia would say, they're wrong. :)21:36
Theunii read through the code and i think i understand the dance going on there21:37
Theuniso you think the dance of removing __providess_ from the locals and putting it on the class object should avoid inheritance?21:39
J1mI don't know exactly what you're saying, but no.21:40
J1mThe only way I know of to avoid inheritance is to have the descriptor complain if it is used on a subclass.21:41
Theunireading the code I see that __provides__ is being moved out of the locals of the class and stuck onto the class object. i'm not quite sure why that dance happens.21:41
Theuniso you're saying there should be a way to declare that you don't want an attribute to be inherited?21:42
J1mI have no idea what the "locals of the class" is.21:42
Theunithe class' dict21:42
J1mBefore discussing this with me, you need to learn about meta classes.21:42
Theunii'm referring to _classProvides_advice21:43
J1mand how Python classes actually work.21:43
Theunilooks like it21:43
* Theuni wanders off to read21:43
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J1mTheuni, lots of tests breal when I try to merge 82895. :(22:44
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J1moh, and I see why.22:46
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J1mI had to adjust the changes to take versions into account.22:48
J1mThe trunk code has version support ripped out.22:48
* Theuni runs22:49
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