IRC log of #zope3-dev for Thursday, 2008-07-17

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ccomb_sahi, where is the "pagelet" content provider registered ? Should I register it myself ?12:41
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arikaanyone around here?20:02
afd_arika: question?20:02
arikayeah... little one...20:02
arikaI'm coding a little cms and well I've got a CMS object that now is a cool container...20:03
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arikaif I template it I can make the template be only the 'body' layer, isn't it?20:03
arikaI've read a little bit in philip's book about it20:03
arikabut can I make templates only to present the region every object is in?20:03
afd_arika: you can either use the standard METAL macros mechanism (which is integrated in the templating engine), or use z3c.pagelet, which is an extension product and a bit more advanced20:04
afd_basically, with macros, you create the general page layout20:04
arikaMETAL? you mean to the TAL inside a ZPT, isn't it?20:04
arikayeah, that's what I want :)20:05
arikafor people to do skings20:05
arikajust do a layout skin20:05
arikaand then if so modify every layer with a new template...20:05
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arikaor whatever...20:05
arikafor  example...20:05
afd_and in the template you say that you use the "page" macro from that general template, and fill the "body" slot20:05
arikathe front page of the CMS (the CMS object really) random things and so..20:06
arikaor a page that you specify as default...20:06
afd_to override templates per layer, you can use z3c.template20:06
afd_also, you should look at viewlets20:06
arikaso configuring browser pages I can say 'it goes to layer body'20:06
arikaisn't it?20:06
arikaafd_: I'm trying to make a website without too much time, but I'll look all this features... :)20:07
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arikaI'm getting to understand it, but I'm just a novice, lol20:07
afd_zope layers have nothing to do with page layout20:07
afd_arika: then you should follow the recipes in philip's book20:08
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arikayeah yeah, I'm jumping from a chapter to another to make it work lol20:08
arikaFor example, for the CMS container I jumped a moment to the containers chapter20:08
arikathen I said "it has to be"20:08
arikaand so :)20:08
afd_Might be relevant to you, perhaps a bit too advanced:
arikathat book it's really interesting, gonna buy it, lol20:09
arikabut afd_20:09
arikaas I've seen:20:09
arikabrowser:page has a layer option20:09
arikaand just putting there, i.e.: body20:09
arikacan make the template I give fit into that layer20:09
arikaso I won't punt <!doctype...20:10
arika(and so)20:10
afd_arika: zope layers don't work like that20:10
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arikaafd_: surprise me :)20:11
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afd_a short description: layers are interfaces. Skins are composed from layers (through class inheritance from layers). You can change skins on the fly, in the browser. Skins provide you with interaction in the browser: pages, forms, views, etc, they're all skins20:12
afd_By registering a page on a layer, you make it available only in that layer20:12
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afd_You can also register, per layer: content providers, viewlets, views, browser resources20:12
arikathat's the hieararchy of things taht fit on a layer...20:13
afd_fit is a bad word20:13
arikabut the main template of the site is a layout full of all layers that have to be filled with things...20:13
afd_the main template is usually  a template that defines a macro20:14
afd_this macro has a bunch of slots20:14
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arikathat's the macro name for the layout?20:14
afd_"head", "body", "footer"20:14
arikaahhh yeah20:14
afd_this is a convention20:14
afd_macros and slots can be named in any way20:14
arikaPhilip gives a list of slots and so20:14
arikathe slots that ZMI uses and so..20:14
arika(I mean)20:15
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afd_easiest is to create a new skin20:15
afd_that is based on the basicskin20:15
afd_this way you don't have to mess with the rotterdam skin20:15
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afd_and you can define your page structure exactly how you want it20:15
arikathe rotterdam sking is the one in Zope :)20:15
arikaso I simply create all the layout20:16
afd_ZMI = rotterdam skin20:16
arikaand using TAL I can put ZMI content if so where I want, isn't it?20:16
afd_you create the layout you want, and you fill it in any way you see fit20:16
arikatrust me, yesterday I told to a friend "PHP stinks" lol20:16
arikathis Zope is really powerful :)20:16
arikaIt's surprising me every day I try a thing work lol20:17
arikahahahahah :)20:17
arika(and of course I fail because being a completely novice person on it lol)20:17
afd_hopefully you'll be just as optimistic in a week :) the Zope usually has a long learning curve20:17
arikayeah I heard20:17
arikabut I'm using philip book and the APIDOC20:17
afd_especially if you don't have someone to help you20:17
arikaso I understad what really the ZCML does20:17
arikaafd_: don't worry, I usually learn on my own lol20:18
arikasometimes I ask, but I usually do it lol20:18
arikabut I can ask another thing...20:18
arikaif I create Skins in my project directory...20:18
arikawill every content share the same skin?20:18
arikaor I have to set up the skin on every content piece?20:18
afd_content doesn't have a skin20:18
arikawhat I mean...20:19
afd_pages that show you the content are registered for a skin20:19
afd_or more precisely, for a layer20:19
arikacan I let also ppl selet an skin ^^?20:19
afd_you can change it through code20:19
arikahaving a return skin_path or whatever20:19
afd_or just insert ++skin++rotterdam in the url, at the beginning20:19
arikaand using ZCML to get it?20:19
afd_arika: don't skip on the book20:20
arikayeah yeah20:20
afd_creating a new skin is an advanced topic20:20
arikaI created an skin already20:20
afd_make sure you get pages, forms and content first20:20
arikait's about changing everything to TAL, no?20:20
arikayeah yeah20:20
afd_more or less20:20
arikaso the skin is the lastest part, isn't it?20:20
afd_usually, yes20:21
afd_although for a regular site, probably the biggest part as well20:21
arikaI've seen clues around there...20:21
arikaif I make via ZCML a view page on it20:21
arikaand I make it default view20:21
arikathen users will se something instead a directory listing lol20:21
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afd_there are no directory listings in zope20:22
afd_zmi has the @@contents.html page20:22
afd_also, index.html is already registered as default page20:22
afd_for all the content20:22
afd_so you just need to create pages named index.html20:22
arikayeah, true :)20:22
arikaand if I want to make it be /@@view is when I use the defaultView directive20:23
arikaI've to see how directories contain things20:24
arikaand how to access to those things... and so...20:24
arikabut from now I'll create a content thing...20:24
arikasomething like a class Document :)20:24
afd_yes, that's good20:24
afd_then you can create a view page for it20:25
arikaYou say things go more better when you've been 1 week failing, isn't it?20:25
afd_with a very basic template20:25
afd_and then you can make it use the page macro or whatever its name is, from standard_macros20:25
arikabut can I put content that I configure to be 'default page'?20:25
arika(giving an url to the variable, of course or something like that)20:25
afd_I can't understand what you mean20:26
arikathat's done coding, isn'4~t it?20:26
arikain my CMS configuration20:26
arika(like an edit page)20:26
arikaif I put an url that is in the hierarchy of that object20:26
arikacan I make coding to show the content of what I say ?20:26
arikalike a 'Default page to show" textbox20:27
arikathat's done coding, isn't it?20:27
afd_you can insert other pages into your page20:27
arikahuh... cool20:27
arikasomeone thought that before hahahahahahaha :)20:27
afd_<div tal:content="structure myobj/@@my_other_view" />20:27
afd_this means that my_other_view is a view (page) that is registered for the object myobj20:28
arikaand myobject is a object in the fs beginning on the hierarchy of the current object....20:28
arikayeah yeah20:28
afd_it is registered usually for the class of myobj, or for one of the interfaces that myobj implements20:28
arikaafd_: I'm happy because I'm understanding how it works... :)20:29
afd_you usually register it on interfaces20:29
arikaas I've seen render of pages are done using Python...20:29
arikalike the first example Philip gives20:29
arikaand also20:30
arikayou can specify a template20:30
afd_it is important to know that you can have pages do something20:30
arikathat would be rendered20:30
afd_like return a string that will be shown20:30
arikayeah yeah20:30
afd_or do something in with the GET or POST parameters20:30
arikadown to the level you want, really20:30
arikaalso as I've seen there's a form library to interact with the user and so20:31
afd_there are 3 form libraries20:31, zope.formlib, z3c.form20:31
afd_typically zope.formlib + is used20:32
arikaas I've seen things are changing... deprecating things and so...20:32
afd_at first you learn, then learn how to use formlib20:32
afd_arika: you shouldn't be concerned about that20:32
arikabut what if they deprecate something and my app stops working when I upgrade zope? lol20:33
arikado they maintain backwards compatibility with everything?20:33
afd_judging from history, you'll have about 3 years or more time to change your code20:33
afd_once something is deprecated20:33
arikaslowly development, isn't it? hahahahaha :)20:34
afd_zope is component based, most things are replaceble, you can see a lot of extension components on svn.zope.org20:34
afd_for example z3c.authentication replaces the authentication from zope20:35
afd_z3c.form replaces the forms framework20:35
arikaI know there are lots of things done20:35
afd_and so on20:35
arikabtu I would like to do it on my own of a beter comprehension of the system :)20:35
arikasounds stupid and contrary of what zope means, but I've explained why :)20:35
afd_to improve the wheel you first need to understand the wheel20:36
arikathat's the thing :)20:36
arikawhen I do some things more and completely understand Philip's book20:37
arikaI'll taje a look on the SVN code20:37
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arikaafd_: I was one day trying CMSs based on PHP20:38
arikabut no one had what I needed, only little parts of it20:39
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arikaand well I saw Plone and I loved it lol and I read about Zope and I began to investigate hahahaha20:39
arikaIt's a really interesting thing, this Zope3...20:39
arikabut as you say the learning curve is sooooo long....20:40
afd_I won't say very very long20:40
arikawell... it depends how much you effort...20:40
afd_but for sure a month to be able to understand and it discover how things work on your own20:40
arikaI've been a week having Python tracebacks lol20:41
arikaand finally something worked so I'm happy hahahahah :)20:41
afd_next step, understand the tracebacks20:41
arikayeah... not costumed to them ^^20:41
arikaI'm not a Python programmer... I learnt it in order to do it around a week ago lol20:42
arikamy problem is about forgetting the ':' after classes and functions... (costumed by C++ to finish every bracket like this ')' lol)20:42
afd_#python can also help you with that, especially if you provide tracebacks on pastebins20:43
arikanah, don't worry :)20:43
arikaI've understood then completely :) I told you that my problem was not that20:44
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Locklainnhi all, I'm wondering if anybody knows if there is a way to run only certain tests for zc.recipe.testrunner20:45
arikaif I create a dummy content object and all my CMS contents inherit from this dummy object20:45
arikaand I constraint every CMS container to that dummy container20:46
afd_arika: if you need a CMS for a real project, Plone can probably help you finish a lot faster20:46
arikaadding things from outside won't be allowed, isn't it?20:46
arikaafd_: not really :)20:46
arikagot a bet with my friend hahahahhahahaha :)20:46
afd_arika: it's complicated, depends on how deep you want to go20:47
afd_usually you create a new type of site20:47
arikahm... plone would serve, of course :)20:48
afd_a folderish object20:48
afd_MySite, let's say20:48
arikathat's what I've done :)20:48
afd_you'll add one of this in zope and this is the object you'll publish on the web20:48
afd_and then you can restrict what types of objects you can add in this folder20:48
arikathat's what I've thought20:49
arikabut instead of naming every object to the restriction20:49
arikaI can create an IContent20:49
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arikaand then every content inherits from IContent20:49
arikaso they will be allowed but no other20:49
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arikaso everyone that want's to make a content thing20:49
arikacreates a new inherited IContent20:49
arikaand so20:49
arikaI was speculating with POO theory20:50
arikaOOP I mean20:50
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arikaand well having a MySiteFolder that has the same constraints would work20:50
arikaafd_: if I finish a site I'll tell you the URL hahahaha :)20:51
afd_you'll have to share the beer when you win that contest :)20:51
arikawhere do you live? hahahaha20:52
arikafar away probably :)20:52
afd_you got it20:52
arikamy friend ruined doing this Zope thing so he proposed a bet with me lol20:52
arikabecause I was thinking of making a website and you know20:52
afd_"ruined" = ?20:52
arikacouldn't do it20:52
afd_I see20:52
arikaI mean he simply abandoned it20:53
arikayou know people... if they don't get results fast they abandon things20:53
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afd_how long did he try?20:53
arikaso I said 'won't be so difficult, I think...'20:53
arikaafd_: a month I think20:53
arikaif you're not constant in what you do you won't get a thing I told him20:54
arikabut now I understand more better how it works it's more easy lol20:54
afd_my advice would be this:20:54
arikathat Philip's book it's really good...20:55
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arikaI'll buy it next month muahahahahaha20:55
afd_learn how to create persistent content, learn how to create pages, then go the "php" way20:55
arikaphp way?20:55
afd_if you don't have this as a solid base, you'll give up by the time you get to macros, form libraries, widgets, catalog and all the rest20:56
arikawell... the first task is easy... inheriting the IContained from IContained and the object from Persistent, that's what I saw reading between lines...20:56
arikainterface from IContained, I mean20:57
afd_the php way, I mean, just use the python language and the basic pages + template support to create your pages20:57
afd_don't try to integrate with ZMI, browser menus, formlibs, and so on20:57
arikawhatever down to mysitefolder will fit the skin I do...20:57
arikahahahahaha :)20:57
afd_btw, you should also look at Grok20:58
arikathen closing access to the ZMI and rewriting the url on Apache will work, isn't it?20:58
arikayeah yeah20:58
afd_yes, it will work20:58
arikathat's a CMS for Zope320:58
afd_Grok is a framework on top of zope designed to ease development20:58
afd_it is not a CMS20:58
arikabut that's not the bet lol20:58
arikahe advised lol :)20:58
afd_just another web framework, like Django, or Pylons, or Turbogears20:58
arikais django working on top of Zope?20:59
afd_you can use the Zope libraries in Django20:59
afd_but no20:59
arikapeople told me that if I see Django I'll change hahaha :)20:59
afd_django is easier, I think20:59
afd_to learn, at least20:59
arikabut my point of interest is Zope...20:59
afd_each framework probably has its good/bad points21:00
arikazope has what I need21:00
arikaa framework on object hierarchy :)21:00
arikaa filesystem or call it what you want :)21:00
arikathat's what I need for my website ^^21:01
arikato be more precise... as I continue my reading Zope provides more things that the ones I would need :)21:02
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arikaIt's simply difficult to get on it...21:02
afd_it's not difficult once you get past the initial stage21:02
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arikayeah, creating content that gets stored hahaha :)21:03
arikaone more question...21:03
afd_on the contrary, it's very easy to grasp and understand even its deeper guts21:03
arikaI'll read about it but wanted to know...21:03
arikaif for a view page on every content21:03
arikaI make, ie, a document.pt21:03
arikawhen I change the skin to other then the will be taken by the skin's folder?21:04
afd_I'm not sure I understand21:04
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afd_you can think of skins as "constraints" you apply to pages21:05
afd_"this page is only available on this skin (layer)"21:05
afd_of course, skins and layers can inherit each other21:05
afd_you register pages for "context" interfaces21:05
afd_if you have a myfolder/@@index.html21:06
afd_the context for the index.html page is myfolder21:06
afd_and you register the page as <browser:page name="index.html" for=".interfaces.IMyFolder" ...21:06
afd_so this page will only be available for IMyFolder type of objects21:07
afd_you can register, of course, pages with the same name for different type of objects21:07
arikabut I mean21:07
arikain the browser directive21:07
arikaI put template="", for example21:07
arikaand I say it's viewed on layer body21:07
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arikathen... can every skin define a document.pt21:08
arikajust for its own ?21:08 would be a template21:08
arikayeah a template to present the view :)21:08
afd_maybe a view_document.html page21:08
afd_that uses the template21:08
afd_but yes, you can define this for skin21:08
arikaso then when I change to that skin21:09
afd_but you don't really need to get into skins21:09
arikafor presentation pruposes it will use it's own
afd_you can do things fine in the default skin21:09
afd_also, there's no "layer body"21:09
afd_I'm not sure how you got that21:10
arikaslot I would mean...21:10
arikadidn't read about it :) when I'll do that I'll be more precise hahahaha :)21:10
CSWookieHeh.  I've been trying to talk to you guys for like the past 5 minutes, and only just realized that I was in the #python channel and you were over here...21:10
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arikaCSWookie: lol :)21:12
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arikaafd_: I've configured a ZCML without looking at the docs... cool hahaha :)21:46
arikaZCML is important21:46
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afd_just consider it a necessary implementation detail21:47
afd_a way to be explicit about behaviour and configuration, but not flood the code with unnecessary details21:48
arikanow gonna see the views of my document ^^21:48
arikagonna follow that @@view @@edit scheme... like that @ symbol hahahaha :)21:49
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afd_the @@ is added automatically, or better, you can use the @@ to construct views22:03
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afd_it's a way to make the url traversal have better performance22:03
afd_normall zope looks first for an object named edit.html in the folder, if it doesn't find it, it looks for a page named edit.html22:03
afd_if you put the eyes (@@) in front, then it's a view22:03
arikaah cool22:06
arikaso I'll use that @@ for every view lol22:07
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arikaI'm reading now about containers...22:07
arikaI've seen that doing __parent__ = None makes objects dissapear lol22:07
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arikathanks afd_22:14
arikaif I call to ViewTemplateFile22:14
arikawith no argumetns22:14
arikawould it generate22:16
arikathe one in the zcml?22:16
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