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| mgedmin | zope.app.testing trunk fails tests on python 2.5 | 17:04 |
|---|---|---|
| mgedmin | maybe it's my config's fault? | 17:05 |
| mgedmin | TypeError: Missing 'provides' attribute | 17:05 |
| mgedmin | while parsing zope.securitypolicy's zcml | 17:05 |
| mgedmin | * zope.app.securitypolicy's | 17:05 |
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| nouri | Either I'm crazy or there's something seriously wrong with the latest zope.component release. I'm getting "Missing 'provides' attribute" for a utility registration with ZCML that I didn't get with 3.4.latest. | 17:37 |
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| mgedmin | nouri: thanks for confirming! | 18:22 |
| mgedmin | I was just complaining about the same thing | 18:23 |
| mgedmin | http://zopebuildbot.whq.gocept.com/ is dead? | 18:23 |
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| theuni | kind of | 18:32 |
| theuni | our old storage system died | 18:32 |
| theuni | the virtual machine is still there in general but not active right now | 18:32 |
| theuni | i'll bring it back in the next dazs | 18:33 |
| theuni | days | 18:33 |
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| mgedmin | it's zope.app.component that's broken, not zope.component | 18:41 |
| mgedmin | Total: 178 tests, 0 failures, 2 errors in 2.980 seconds. (the two errors are SetUpLayerFailure) | 18:41 |
| nouri | mgedmin: I guess that means this thing in zope.component is only tested in zope.app.component? | 18:48 |
| mgedmin | I think it's actually a problem in zope.app.securitypolicy | 18:48 |
| nouri | haha | 18:48 |
| mgedmin | buildout is slow since I don't have eggs-directory configured in my ~/.buildout/default.cfg | 18:49 |
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| mgedmin | ZopeXMLConfigurationError: File "/home/mg/src/zope.app.securitypolicy/src/zope/app/securitypolicy/browser/tests/functional.zcml", line 4.2-4.48 | 18:50 |
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| nouri | mgedmin: It looks a lot like it's related to r88794 of zope.component. Although I can't really make sense of it. | 18:54 |
| * mgedmin wishes zope's svn had a trac on it | 18:54 | |
| mgedmin | easy-to-type URLs... http://trac.zope.org/changeset/88794 would be nice to have now | 18:54 |
| mgedmin | http://svn.zope.org/?rev=88794&view=rev is hard to remember | 18:55 |
| nouri | Yeah | 18:55 |
| mgedmin | yep, looks like | 18:55 |
| mgedmin | is there a zope.interface.implementedBy()? | 18:56 |
| nouri | No | 18:56 |
| mgedmin | um, there should be | 18:57 |
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| mgedmin | zope.interface claims moduleProvides(IInterfaceDeclaration) | 18:57 |
| mgedmin | IInterfaceDeclaration defines implementedBy(class_) | 18:57 |
| nouri | Sorry, you lost me there | 18:58 |
| mgedmin | okay, I've got a tentative fix for zope.component.zcml | 18:58 |
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| mgedmin | I have the fix | 19:11 |
| nouri | mgedmin: Excellent | 19:11 |
| mgedmin | I'm going to release zope.component 3.5.1 with the fix. Any objections? | 19:11 |
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| mgedmin | had anyone opened any bugs on launchpad for this issue? | 19:13 |
| mgedmin | uh, *can* I actually make a release? | 19:15 |
| mgedmin | no: Upload failed (403): You are not allowed to edit 'zope.component' package information | 19:19 |
| mgedmin | who here has enough privileges to make a zope.component release? | 19:19 |
| theuni | i guess i do | 19:19 |
| mgedmin | could you upload zope.component 3.5.1 to pypi? | 19:20 |
| theuni | nope | 19:20 |
| mgedmin | I've made the tag already... | 19:20 |
| theuni | one of the few packages I can not access | 19:20 |
| ignas | mgedmin: i think i can do that | 19:20 |
| ignas | lemme see | 19:20 |
| theuni | j1m and philikon are registered as owners | 19:20 |
| ignas | no I can't | 19:21 |
| ignas | :/ | 19:21 |
| nouri | mgedmin: https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope3/+bug/251865 | 19:22 |
| nouri | mgedmin: Oh, nevermind, you closed it | 19:22 |
| mgedmin | J1m: would you mind making a release of zope.component 3.5.1? It fixes https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope3/+bug/251865 | 19:23 |
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| mgedmin | https://bugs.launchpad.net/zc.buildout/+bug/190260 is giving me pain... | 19:31 |
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| J1m | mgedmin, I can make a release some time. :) Or I can authorize oneone else to. | 20:27 |
| mgedmin | J1m: I wouldn't mind pypi rights | 20:27 |
| J1m | k, is your pypi id mgedmin? | 20:28 |
| mgedmin | yes | 20:28 |
| J1m | ok, you're an owner of zope.component. | 20:29 |
| J1m | do you want to be an ownder of anything else? | 20:29 |
| J1m | owner | 20:29 |
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| mgedmin | hm | 20:31 |
| mgedmin | zope.testing, maybe | 20:31 |
| J1m | done | 20:32 |
| mgedmin | thanks | 20:32 |
| J1m | more? :) | 20:32 |
| mgedmin | well, I'd like to have the ability to make bugfix releases when I notice something broken | 20:32 |
| mgedmin | I feel a little bad about not contributing back to zope for quite a long time now | 20:32 |
| J1m | I wish there was a way to define an uber project and give someone a role to that. | 20:33 |
| mgedmin | if we had a working buildbot, I find it interesting to investigate most recent test breakages | 20:33 |
| mgedmin | otoh usually it's not urgent | 20:33 |
| ignas | J1m: could you look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope3/+bug/251848 please | 20:34 |
| ignas | as you made the checkin that added the error message, you might recall why the code is that way ... | 20:35 |
| J1m | Dude, that was in 2004. Of course I don't recall. | 20:36 |
| J1m | I suspect though that someone had set a security checker to None and that was hard to debug. | 20:36 |
| ignas | yeah, but python code is not doing anything about it... | 20:36 |
| J1m | You might ask sidnei if he remembers. | 20:37 |
| J1m | the intent of the C code is not to allow None. | 20:37 |
| ignas | which is why I don't know what is the *right* way to fix it... | 20:37 |
| J1m | right, I understand. | 20:37 |
| J1m | I think the right way to fix it is to change the Python code, but I don't remember what motivated the change. | 20:38 |
| J1m | let me see if I can find an old email... | 20:38 |
| ignas | so if I understand you correctly - python code should return None if hasattr('__Security_checker__') is False, and raise an error if getattr() returns None | 20:41 |
| J1m | yes | 20:41 |
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| J1m | I found a private message I sent to sidnei. | 20:41 |
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| J1m | Sidnei da Silva wrote: | 20:41 |
| J1m | Seems to work now, whatever you did to fix it. | 20:41 |
| J1m | Great, but | 20:41 |
| J1m | The problem was that there was a __Security_checker__ with a value of None. | 20:41 |
| J1m | The code I checked in yesterday treats this as if it wasn't there. | 20:41 |
| J1m | I don't really think we should allow __Security_checkers__ with None | 20:41 |
| J1m | values. I'm inclined to change the code to raise an error | 20:42 |
| J1m | when it encounters a __Security_checker__ with None as it's value. | 20:42 |
| J1m | This will break for you again, but, possibly, with a more helpful | 20:42 |
| J1m | error. | 20:42 |
| J1m | I'm open to counter arguments though. :) | 20:43 |
| mgedmin | it did break ignas's code (but on python 2.5 only), as far as I understand | 20:43 |
| mgedmin | IIRC the error message was not very helpful... | 20:43 |
| mgedmin | ignas: am I right? | 20:43 |
| ignas | mgedmin: yes | 20:43 |
| * mgedmin wonders if he should have removed the empty 3.6.0 (unreleased) changelog bit from zope.component's README.txt before making the 3.5.1 tag | 20:43 | |
| J1m | you can fix it on the tag/ | 20:44 |
| J1m | You have to change the version # anyway. | 20:44 |
| ignas | so my code works with python2.4 C module, python2.4 python module, python2.5 python module and fails with that error on python2.5 when using C extension module :/ | 20:44 |
| ignas | i guess when i'll change the python module, it will be failing on python2.5 all the time, so i'll just go on and try finding the actual bug | 20:45 |
| J1m | ignas, what exactly is failing. | 20:45 |
| J1m | The fact that the ebhavior is fifferent between 2.4 and 2.5 is suspicious and deserves exploration on it's own. | 20:45 |
| ignas | SchoolTool functional tests, the test that is trying to render a NotFound view | 20:45 |
| J1m | I suspect there is a deeper bug at play here. | 20:46 |
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| J1m | Barring convincing arguments to the contrary, I think the C code is correct and the Python code should be changed. | 20:47 |
| ignas | yes, i think so too, now that you told me that the way C side of things is doing it is the right one | 20:47 |
| J1m | The real issue is why your test is failing in 2.5. | 20:47 |
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| J1m | I think you're going to look at the specific place it's failing and we'll have to figure out why it's behaving differently accross Python versions. | 20:48 |
| ignas | give me a sec to get the traceback | 20:48 |
| * mgedmin suspects it's something to do with exceptions becoming new-style-classes | 20:49 | |
| J1m | You can have a day or few if you want. :) | 20:49 |
| ignas | it is very difficult to pin down, because it's an error while rendering an error view ... | 20:50 |
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| lisppaste6 | ignas pasted "Teaceback for the error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/64210 | 20:51 |
| ignas | the "obj" that getParent() is called on is the NotFound exception from what I can recall | 20:52 |
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| J1m | so it would be interesting to pm debug that and see what the __Security_checker__ attr on obj is. | 20:54 |
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| ChrisW | not sure what channel I should ask this in, but I'll try here: so if I have an adapter that ends up being exposed through a url in Zope 2, how can I stick a permission on it so I can use it rather than getting an auth error? | 20:55 |
| ChrisW | kindof related, how can I protect different methods of a view with different permissions? | 20:56 |
| mgedmin | isn't there a #zope-dev for Zope 2? | 20:59 |
| ignas | J1m: the obj is "<zope.app.pagetemplate.simpleviewclass.SimpleViewClass", i get the "Invalid value, None. for security checker" if i am trying to look at it's __parent__, and i get ForbiddenAttribute if i try accessing it's | 21:00 |
| ignas | __Security_checker__ | 21:00 |
| mgedmin | ignas: removeSecurityProxy and try it again? | 21:00 |
| ignas | so a gettattr(obj, '__Security_checker__', None) - returns None | 21:00 |
| ignas | mgedmin: attribute error, no such attribute | 21:01 |
| ChrisW | mgedmin: there's #zope, but it's dead of people who might be able to help with this kind ofthing (zope 3 in zope 2 land...) | 21:01 |
| ChrisW | that said, my 2nd question wasa bona fide zope 3 q anyway ;-) | 21:02 |
| mgedmin | wasn't there a #five for zope 3 + zope 2? | 21:02 |
| ChrisW | nope, no #five | 21:02 |
| mgedmin | what was your 2nd question? | 21:02 |
| ChrisW | how can I protect different methods of a view with different permissions? | 21:02 |
| mgedmin | oh, I see | 21:02 |
| mgedmin | hm | 21:02 |
| mgedmin | I'd guess that you can't | 21:02 |
| ChrisW | oh :-( | 21:03 |
| ignas | we used canAcces() and canWrite() in schooltool where we needed something like that | 21:03 |
| mgedmin | wouldn't that be pointless anyway? | 21:04 |
| mgedmin | I mean, the only thing that is calling the view's methods is the view itself | 21:04 |
| mgedmin | and self is never security-proxied | 21:04 |
| mgedmin | page templates also see the unproxied view | 21:04 |
| mgedmin | hm, unless you're writing a view intended to be used from other views like context/@@someview/somefunc | 21:05 |
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| ignas | whoah | 21:09 |
| ignas | in python2.4 everything is identical | 21:09 |
| ignas | except that i can get to the __parent__ of the view | 21:09 |
| ignas | without getting that nasty Invalid value error | 21:10 |
| ignas | and both cases are giving me the same ForbiddenAttribute error if i am trying to access the __Security_checker__ | 21:11 |
| ignas | so everything is identical, except on python2.5 - error, and on python2.4 - no error | 21:11 |
| mgedmin | you will always get a ForbiddenAttribute if you try to access __Security_checker__ on a proxied object | 21:11 |
| mgedmin | try it on the unproxied object | 21:11 |
| mgedmin | then you'll most likely see that there's an attribute with a value of None in py2.5, but no attribute at all in py2.4 | 21:12 |
| ignas | No usch attribute on both | 21:12 |
| mgedmin | show me | 21:12 |
| ignas | ok, my bad | 21:13 |
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| mgedmin | okay, I see that the NotFound() exception instance has __Security_checker__ in both pythons | 21:16 |
| mgedmin | but the value of __Security_checker__ is a Checker() object in py2.4 and None in py2.5 | 21:17 |
| mgedmin | who set that attribute to None? | 21:17 |
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| ignas | by the way - a LocationProxy is involved as well | 21:18 |
| ignas | as in - it's not NotFound really, it's a location proxy in there | 21:19 |
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| ignas | ok | 21:23 |
| ignas | so __Security_checker__ belongs to the LocationProxy that is wrapping the NotFound exception it seems | 21:24 |
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| mgedmin | in both pythons? | 21:25 |
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| ignas | from zope.publisher.interfaces import NotFound | 21:31 |
| ignas | selectChecker(NotFound('a', 'b', 'c')) | 21:31 |
| ignas | returns None on python2.5 and returns a checker on python2.4 | 21:31 |
| J1m | ChrisW, wrt separate permissions for different methods of a view (or anything else): this is certainly possible in Z3. Not sure about Z2. | 21:40 |
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| ignas | yay | 21:43 |
| ignas | python implementation of selectChecker | 21:43 |
| ignas | returns a checker on python2.5 | 21:43 |
| ignas | because C implementation has lines: | 21:46 |
| ignas | /* if checker is _defaultChecker and isinstance(object, Exception): */ | 21:46 |
| ignas | /* return None */ | 21:46 |
| ignas | while python implementation lacks that | 21:46 |
| * mgedmin is unable to cope with ReStructuredText | 21:51 | |
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| ignas | seems that in this case | 21:52 |
| ignas | C code is right | 21:52 |
| ignas | http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.zope.zope3/15867 | 21:52 |
| ignas | at least J1m said that | 21:52 |
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| ignas | have to go now :/ i guess i'll have to think about it later :/ | 22:00 |
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| MrTopf | Hi! Can somebody tell me what Python versin zope.interface etc. runs with? Does it run with Python2.3? | 22:09 |
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| benji | MrTopf: I'm not certain, but strongly suspect it'll work with 2.3; if the tests pass, you should be good | 22:17 |
| MrTopf | benji: ok, thanks. I am testing it now | 22:17 |
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| MrTopf | benji: well, seems that it does not run, first of all the testrunner recipe does not run without patching, then I get errors like this: http://pastebin.com/m1ab05af3 | 22:25 |
| MrTopf | but anyway, guess that will be a no to the Zope Component Architecture for Linden Lab as they need to run 2.3 internally | 22:25 |
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| * benji reads. | 22:30 | |
| benji | that's like the poorest choice for pastebin colors ever | 22:30 |
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| MrTopf | I can change it to python but I guess that will not really work out | 22:31 |
| benji | hmm, lots of use of "reversed"; I guess it's not real happy with 2.3 | 22:31 |
| MrTopf | seems so | 22:32 |
| MrTopf | in the testrunner it was sum(a.something for a in x) I changed | 22:32 |
| benji | If you really need a 2.3 version you can either attempt to make it backward compatible (which may irritate other maintaners of zope.interface), or try to find an older tag that does work with 2.3 | 22:33 |
| ChrisW | J1m: how would I have seperate permissions for different methods of a view in Zope 2? | 22:33 |
| ChrisW | MrTopf: why would they be stuck on 2.3 | 22:33 |
| ChrisW | ? | 22:33 |
| J1m | ChrisW, I have no idea. | 22:33 |
| ChrisW | sorry, meant in Zope 3... | 22:34 |
| MrTopf | benji: well, I am not sure it's worth the effort. They are complaining about the complicatedness of ZCA and buildout not really working anyway | 22:34 |
| J1m | assuming that the view is a class, you could make a declaration for the class,using the class directive. And then don't mention a permission in the registration. | 22:34 |
| ChrisW | MrTopf: is that 'cos they're sticking with 2.3 per chance? | 22:35 |
| MrTopf | and we again discussed these decisions again this afternoon after which they then wondered if it's running under 2.3 | 22:35 |
| MrTopf | ChrisW: they say for stability reasons | 22:35 |
| benji | hmm, ZCA is actually pretty simple, so if they can't handle it, they probably won't be happy with much ;) | 22:35 |
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| MrTopf | benji: I think so, too. It's mostly unknown and you once need to understand how to use it | 22:35 |
| * ChrisW laughs in their general direction ;-) (unless they have a huge existing codebase in 2.3, although 2.3 has bugs and isn't maintained anymore, so stability seems like a silly idea...) | 22:35 | |
| MrTopf | also the benefits have been discussed quite a bit now. Like why have interface if you have 1 implementation for 1 interface anyway | 22:36 |
| MrTopf | they have a huge existing code base I think | 22:36 |
| ChrisW | indeed, I just register adapters for classes most of the time... | 22:36 |
| MrTopf | whole Second Life runs on 2.3 (well, not everything is python) | 22:36 |
| * ChrisW bets they didn't do tdd either... | 22:36 | |
| J1m | You mean register classes as adapters? | 22:36 |
| MrTopf | the thing is though that this library is not meant to be used in SL production, it's just a library which should help testing the new protocol | 22:37 |
| ChrisW | no, I mean register adapters against classes instead of interfaces. often base classes | 22:37 |
| ChrisW | works just fine :-) | 22:37 |
| MrTopf | so it mainly does network requests and sees if the result is ok | 22:37 |
| MrTopf | so it's more an internal decision not to install python 2.4 in parallel | 22:37 |
| J1m | ChrisW, were you talking to me? | 22:37 |
| MrTopf | or 2.5 | 22:37 |
| ChrisW | yep, in response to the "register classes as adapters" question | 22:38 |
| J1m | right, "register classes as adapter", not "register adapters for classes". | 22:38 |
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| * ChrisW can't follow :-S | 22:38 | |
| J1m | If your adapter is a class, you can make security declarations for the class directly, rather than specifying a permission for the adapter as part of the adapter registration. | 22:39 |
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| MrTopf | so I guess I will do my own library then which uses ZCA and 2.4+ | 22:39 |
| ChrisW | ah, okay, we got crossed with a conversation about whether you need interfaces for ZCA ;-) | 22:39 |
| ChrisW | but I think I understand now | 22:39 |
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| ChrisW | if only I could figure out why Zope 2 is throwing unauth exceptions when I have a view's method protected by a permission that the current user has :-( | 22:40 |
| MrTopf | and buildout unfortunately also didn't turn out as repeatable as I thought | 22:40 |
| MrTopf | spent the whole last week to figure out why it's not working for most other people | 22:40 |
| ChrisW | MrTopf: that's surprising... since I bit the bullet and learned it, I've found it extremely repeatable | 22:40 |
| ChrisW | did you use a versions section? | 22:41 |
| MrTopf | ChrisW: that's my experience, too | 22:41 |
| benji | MrTopf: that's unfortunate -- and somewhat unusual -- what kinds of problems did you have? | 22:41 |
| ChrisW | (and a bootstrap.py to get started) | 22:41 |
| MrTopf | well, it starts with the recent setuptools problem with svn 1.5 | 22:41 |
| ChrisW | ah, I don't use any of that svn interfaction gubbinz, which likely makes me imune | 22:42 |
| MrTopf | then somebody had windows issues as some egg needs PyOpenSSL which needs to be compiled | 22:42 |
| benji | yep, the setuptools problem is unfortunate indeed, but not really a buildout problem, anything using setup tools will have similar issues | 22:42 |
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| MrTopf | benji: right. I now even build a different bootstrap.py which ships with a dev version of setuptools and install this | 22:43 |
| * ChrisW still sighs at the general state of suck in package management in python including both pypi and setuptools... distutils has a lot of blame to carry too... | 22:43 | |
| MrTopf | then Mac OS ships with zope.interface 3.3.0 which gives a problem with zope.component 3.4.0 which was unfortunatyle both installed in the buildout | 22:43 |
| benji | for PyOpenSSL, if there are no binary distributions, you can provide your own (but bugging the project maintainer might be the easiest thing to do) | 22:43 |
| benji | oh, never, ever use the system Python, ever | 22:44 |
| MrTopf | benji: sure but they wanted something which works directly without bugging anybody ;-) | 22:44 |
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| MrTopf | benji: I know but they were hard to convince to install a separate python | 22:44 |
| ChrisW | zope.interface ships in MacOS? cute :-) | 22:44 |
| J1m | Oh, MrTopf isn't using a clean Python. That violates the buildout warranty. | 22:44 |
| MrTopf | "why not use what's already there?" | 22:44 |
| MrTopf | J1m: I do ;-) | 22:44 |
| MrTopf | the rest of the group does not | 22:45 |
| MrTopf | the strange thing was though that the buildout worked on my machine but not on somebody else's | 22:45 |
| MrTopf | and there was some other problem when installing zope.component for somebody | 22:45 |
| ChrisW | what happened on their machine? | 22:45 |
| MrTopf | so all in all they spent a week without being productive and they apparently have a deadline on sunday | 22:45 |
| MrTopf | ChrisW: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/PYO-9 | 22:46 |
| MrTopf | ChrisW: It's what I posted to the zope list | 22:46 |
| MrTopf | and I must say I am a little tired now of defending all that stuff in long nights and trying to find workarounds | 22:47 |
| MrTopf | plus explaining what the heck ZCA is | 22:47 |
| MrTopf | so here is the mail from this morning about revisiting architecture choices: http://www.mail-archive.com/pyogp@lists.secondlife.com/msg00097.html | 22:47 |
| ChrisW | weird, why would OverflowError not be around? | 22:48 |
| MrTopf | and here is some other traceback from somebody trying it earlier: http://www.mail-archive.com/pyogp@lists.secondlife.com/msg00074.html | 22:49 |
| MrTopf | I was also looking this evening in creating a new bootstrap script which has virtualenv included | 22:49 |
| MrTopf | but for some reason it does not work... | 22:49 |
| MrTopf | maybe I should look at Ignas bootstrap.py | 22:50 |
| MrTopf | or maybe I should not care anymore and tell people to install a fresh python :) | 22:50 |
| ChrisW | I wonder if Ignas is still on holiday? | 22:50 |
| MrTopf | he was in here earlier | 22:50 |
| MrTopf | just left when I paid attention | 22:50 |
| benji | Hmm, changing build systems the week before a deadline doesn't sound appealing. | 22:56 |
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| MrTopf | well, the whole project was just started | 22:58 |
| MrTopf | as an open source project | 22:58 |
| MrTopf | and I at least wasn't aware of any deadline they had | 22:59 |
| MrTopf | I mainly tried to propose components I work with every day and to me at least have proven quite useful | 22:59 |
| MrTopf | esp. on the long run | 22:59 |
| MrTopf | not for a 10 line script | 22:59 |
| benji | yep, build systems tend to sneak up on you, then one day you realize that it takes a week to get a new developer set up and deploying new servers is a nightmare, better to do it "right" from the begining | 23:00 |
| MrTopf | so, the list now has another guy saying he won't contribute because of our architectural decisions to use zca and grok and he wants plain python | 23:01 |
| ChrisW | nice | 23:02 |
| benji | architectural decisions take strong leadership, more so in open source | 23:02 |
| MrTopf | yeah, but I discuss this for a month now | 23:02 |
| MrTopf | and basically we voted for using it | 23:02 |
| MrTopf | even tonight | 23:02 |
| MrTopf | and it's a little strange situation as it's also a project inside Linden Lab. | 23:04 |
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| MrTopf | and now I maybe move on to more fun stuff :) | 23:05 |
| benji | then the choice comes down to the dissenter, does he whine about the group's choices or hold his tounge and contribute | 23:05 |
| MrTopf | well, if there would be such a thing as a choice ;-) | 23:05 |
| benji | ? | 23:06 |
| MrTopf | as said, we just have choosen to use ZCA and buildout but 2 hours later this descision is questioned again | 23:06 |
| MrTopf | because of 2.3 and general confusion about ZCA | 23:06 |
| MrTopf | so in general I would be ok if ZCA would not be used as long as we manage to structure the code well nevertheless | 23:07 |
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| MrTopf | I might still add a layer on top of it which uses it | 23:07 |
| MrTopf | but it will be reinventing the wheel anyway.. when it e.g. comes to some event system | 23:08 |
| MrTopf | and what I meant was "if there would be such a thing as a decision" | 23:08 |
| benji | it doesn't bode well for a group that can't make a hard decisions | 23:10 |
| MrTopf | too many stakeholders I guess | 23:11 |
| MrTopf | which only slowly come out of their holes | 23:11 |
| MrTopf | but anyway, I will not just wait and see what happens | 23:12 |
| benji | good luck :) | 23:13 |
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| MrTopf | thanks :) | 23:14 |
| MrTopf | for now I will edit some videos from EuroPython | 23:15 |
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| ccomb | is the wiki down , | 23:45 |
| ccomb | ? | 23:45 |
| ccomb | it seems back | 23:47 |
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