IRC log of #zope3-dev for Friday, 2008-07-25

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*** tarek has joined #zope3-dev17:04 trunk fails tests on python 2.517:04
mgedminmaybe it's my config's fault?17:05
mgedmin    TypeError: Missing 'provides' attribute17:05
mgedminwhile parsing zope.securitypolicy's zcml17:05
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nouriEither I'm crazy or there's something seriously wrong with the latest zope.component release.  I'm getting "Missing 'provides' attribute" for a utility registration with ZCML that I didn't get with 3.4.latest.17:37
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mgedminnouri: thanks for confirming!18:22
mgedminI was just complaining about the same thing18:23
mgedmin is dead?18:23
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theunikind of18:32
theuniour old storage system died18:32
theunithe virtual machine is still there in general but not active right now18:32
theunii'll bring it back in the next dazs18:33
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mgedminit's that's broken, not zope.component18:41
mgedminTotal: 178 tests, 0 failures, 2 errors in 2.980 seconds. (the two errors are SetUpLayerFailure)18:41
nourimgedmin: I guess that means this thing in zope.component is only tested in
mgedminI think it's actually a problem in
mgedminbuildout is slow since I don't have eggs-directory configured in my ~/.buildout/default.cfg18:49
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mgedmin    ZopeXMLConfigurationError: File "/home/mg/src/", line 4.2-4.4818:50
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nourimgedmin: It looks a lot like it's related to r88794 of zope.component.  Although I can't really make sense of it.18:54
* mgedmin wishes zope's svn had a trac on it18:54
mgedmineasy-to-type URLs... would be nice to have now18:54
mgedmin is hard to remember18:55
mgedminyep, looks like18:55
mgedminis there a zope.interface.implementedBy()?18:56
mgedminum, there should be18:57
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mgedminzope.interface claims moduleProvides(IInterfaceDeclaration)18:57
mgedminIInterfaceDeclaration defines implementedBy(class_)18:57
nouriSorry, you lost me there18:58
mgedminokay, I've got a tentative fix for zope.component.zcml18:58
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mgedminI have the fix19:11
nourimgedmin: Excellent19:11
mgedminI'm going to release zope.component 3.5.1 with the fix.  Any objections?19:11
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mgedminhad anyone opened any bugs on launchpad for this issue?19:13
mgedminuh, *can* I actually make a release?19:15
mgedminno: Upload failed (403): You are not allowed to edit 'zope.component' package information19:19
mgedminwho here has enough privileges to make a zope.component release?19:19
theunii guess i do19:19
mgedmincould you upload zope.component 3.5.1 to pypi?19:20
mgedminI've made the tag already...19:20
theunione of the few packages I can not access19:20
ignasmgedmin: i think i can do that19:20
ignaslemme see19:20
theunij1m and philikon are registered as owners19:20
ignasno I can't19:21
nourimgedmin: Oh, nevermind, you closed it19:22
mgedminJ1m: would you mind making a release of zope.component 3.5.1?  It fixes
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mgedmin is giving me pain...19:31
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J1mmgedmin, I can make a release some time. :)  Or I can authorize oneone else to.20:27
mgedminJ1m: I wouldn't mind pypi rights20:27
J1mk, is your pypi id mgedmin?20:28
J1mok, you're an owner of zope.component.20:29
J1mdo you want to be an ownder of anything else?20:29
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mgedminzope.testing, maybe20:31
J1mmore? :)20:32
mgedminwell, I'd like to have the ability to make bugfix releases when I notice something broken20:32
mgedminI feel a little bad about not contributing back to zope for quite a long time now20:32
J1mI wish there was a way to define an uber project and give someone a role to that.20:33
mgedminif we had a working buildbot, I find it interesting to investigate most recent test breakages20:33
mgedminotoh usually it's not urgent20:33
ignasJ1m: could you look at please20:34
ignasas you made the checkin that added the error message, you might recall why the code is that way ...20:35
J1mDude, that was in 2004.  Of course I don't recall.20:36
J1mI suspect though that someone had set a security checker to None and that was hard to debug.20:36
ignasyeah, but python code is not doing anything about it...20:36
J1mYou might ask sidnei if he remembers.20:37
J1mthe intent of the C code is not to allow None.20:37
ignaswhich is why I don't know what is the *right* way to fix it...20:37
J1mright, I understand.20:37
J1mI think the right way to fix it is to change the Python code, but I don't remember what motivated the change.20:38
J1mlet me see if I can find an old email...20:38
ignasso if I understand you correctly - python code should return None if hasattr('__Security_checker__') is False, and raise an error if getattr() returns None20:41
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J1mI found a private message I sent to sidnei.20:41
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J1mSidnei da Silva wrote:20:41
J1mSeems to work now, whatever you did to fix it.20:41
J1mGreat, but20:41
J1mThe problem was that there was a __Security_checker__ with a value of None.20:41
J1mThe code I checked in yesterday treats this as if it wasn't there.20:41
J1mI don't really think we should allow __Security_checkers__ with None20:41
J1mvalues.  I'm inclined to change the code to raise an error20:42
J1mwhen it encounters a __Security_checker__ with None as it's value.20:42
J1mThis will break for you again, but, possibly, with a more helpful20:42
J1mI'm open to counter arguments though. :)20:43
mgedminit did break ignas's code (but on python 2.5 only), as far as I understand20:43
mgedminIIRC the error message was not very helpful...20:43
mgedminignas: am I right?20:43
ignasmgedmin: yes20:43
* mgedmin wonders if he should have removed the empty 3.6.0 (unreleased) changelog bit from zope.component's README.txt before making the 3.5.1 tag20:43
J1myou can fix it on the tag/20:44
J1mYou have to change the version # anyway.20:44
ignasso my code works with python2.4 C module, python2.4 python module, python2.5 python module and fails with that error on python2.5 when using C extension module :/20:44
ignasi guess when i'll change the python module, it will be failing on python2.5 all the time, so i'll just go on and try finding the actual bug20:45
J1mignas, what exactly is failing.20:45
J1mThe fact that the ebhavior is fifferent between 2.4 and 2.5 is suspicious and deserves exploration on it's own.20:45
ignasSchoolTool functional tests, the test that is trying to render a NotFound view20:45
J1mI suspect there is a deeper bug at play here.20:46
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J1mBarring convincing arguments to the contrary, I think the C code is correct and the Python code should be changed.20:47
ignasyes, i think so too, now that you told me that the way C side of things is doing it is the right one20:47
J1mThe real issue is why your test is failing in 2.5.20:47
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J1mI think you're going to look at the specific place it's failing and we'll have to figure out why it's behaving differently accross Python versions.20:48
ignasgive me a sec to get the traceback20:48
* mgedmin suspects it's something to do with exceptions becoming new-style-classes20:49
J1mYou can have a day or few if you want. :)20:49
ignasit is very difficult to pin down, because it's an error while rendering an error view ...20:50
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lisppaste6ignas pasted "Teaceback for the error" at
ignasthe "obj" that getParent() is called on is the NotFound exception from what I can recall20:52
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J1mso it would be interesting to pm debug that and see what the __Security_checker__ attr on obj is.20:54
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ChrisWnot sure what channel I should ask this in, but I'll try here: so if I have an adapter that ends up being exposed through a url in Zope 2, how can I stick a permission on it so I can use it rather than getting an auth error?20:55
ChrisWkindof related, how can I protect different methods of a view with different permissions?20:56
mgedminisn't there a #zope-dev for Zope 2?20:59
ignasJ1m: the obj is "<", i get the "Invalid value, None. for security checker" if i am trying to look at it's __parent__, and i get ForbiddenAttribute if i try accessing it's21:00
mgedminignas: removeSecurityProxy and try it again?21:00
ignasso a gettattr(obj, '__Security_checker__', None) - returns None21:00
ignasmgedmin: attribute error, no such attribute21:01
ChrisWmgedmin: there's #zope, but it's dead of people who might be able to help with this kind ofthing (zope 3 in zope 2 land...)21:01
ChrisWthat said, my 2nd question wasa bona fide zope 3 q anyway ;-)21:02
mgedminwasn't there a #five for zope 3 + zope 2?21:02
ChrisWnope, no #five21:02
mgedminwhat was your 2nd question?21:02
ChrisWhow can I protect different methods of a view with different permissions?21:02
mgedminoh, I see21:02
mgedminI'd guess that you can't21:02
ChrisWoh :-(21:03
ignaswe used canAcces() and canWrite() in schooltool where we needed something like that21:03
mgedminwouldn't that be pointless anyway?21:04
mgedminI mean, the only thing that is calling the view's methods is the view itself21:04
mgedminand self is never security-proxied21:04
mgedminpage templates also see the unproxied view21:04
mgedminhm, unless you're writing a view intended to be used from other views like context/@@someview/somefunc21:05
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ignasin python2.4 everything is identical21:09
ignasexcept that i can get to the __parent__ of the view21:09
ignaswithout getting that nasty Invalid value error21:10
ignasand both cases are giving me the same ForbiddenAttribute error if i am trying to access the __Security_checker__21:11
ignasso everything is identical, except on python2.5 - error, and on python2.4 - no error21:11
mgedminyou will always get a ForbiddenAttribute if you try to access __Security_checker__ on a proxied object21:11
mgedmintry it on the unproxied object21:11
mgedminthen you'll most likely see that there's an attribute with a value of None in py2.5, but no attribute at all in py2.421:12
ignasNo usch attribute on both21:12
mgedminshow me21:12
ignasok, my bad21:13
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mgedminokay, I see that the NotFound() exception instance has __Security_checker__ in both pythons21:16
mgedminbut the value of __Security_checker__ is a Checker() object in py2.4 and None in py2.521:17
mgedminwho set that attribute to None?21:17
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ignasby the way - a LocationProxy is involved as well21:18
ignasas in - it's not NotFound really, it's a location proxy in there21:19
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ignasso __Security_checker__ belongs to the LocationProxy that is wrapping the NotFound exception it seems21:24
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mgedminin both pythons?21:25
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ignasfrom zope.publisher.interfaces import NotFound21:31
ignasselectChecker(NotFound('a', 'b', 'c'))21:31
ignasreturns None on python2.5 and returns a checker on python2.421:31
J1mChrisW, wrt separate permissions for different methods of a view (or anything else): this is certainly possible in Z3. Not sure about Z2.21:40
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ignaspython implementation of selectChecker21:43
ignasreturns a checker on python2.521:43
ignasbecause C implementation has lines:21:46
ignas /*     if checker is _defaultChecker and isinstance(object, Exception): */21:46
ignas /*         return None */21:46
ignaswhile python implementation lacks that21:46
* mgedmin is unable to cope with ReStructuredText21:51
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ignasseems that in this case21:52
ignasC code is right21:52
ignasat least J1m said that21:52
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ignashave to go now :/ i guess i'll have to think about it later :/22:00
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MrTopfHi! Can somebody tell me what Python versin zope.interface etc. runs with? Does it run with Python2.3?22:09
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benjiMrTopf: I'm not certain, but strongly suspect it'll work with 2.3; if the tests pass, you should be good22:17
MrTopfbenji: ok, thanks. I am testing it now22:17
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MrTopfbenji: well, seems that it does not run, first of all the testrunner recipe does not run without patching, then I get errors like this:
MrTopfbut anyway, guess that will be a no to the Zope Component Architecture for Linden Lab as they need to run 2.3 internally22:25
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* benji reads.22:30
benjithat's like the poorest choice for pastebin colors ever22:30
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MrTopfI can change it to python but I guess that will not really work out22:31
benjihmm, lots of use of "reversed"; I guess it's not real happy with 2.322:31
MrTopfseems so22:32
MrTopfin the testrunner it was sum(a.something for a in x) I changed22:32
benjiIf you really need a 2.3 version you can either attempt to make it backward compatible (which may irritate other maintaners of zope.interface), or try to find an older tag that does work with 2.322:33
ChrisWJ1m: how would I have seperate permissions for different methods of a view in Zope 2?22:33
ChrisWMrTopf: why would they be stuck on 2.322:33
J1mChrisW, I have no idea.22:33
ChrisWsorry, meant in Zope 3...22:34
MrTopfbenji: well, I am not sure it's worth the effort. They are complaining about the complicatedness of ZCA and buildout not really working anyway22:34
J1massuming that the view is a class, you could make a declaration for the class,using the class directive. And then don't mention a permission in the registration.22:34
ChrisWMrTopf: is that 'cos they're sticking with 2.3 per chance?22:35
MrTopfand we again discussed these decisions again this afternoon after which they then wondered if it's running under 2.322:35
MrTopfChrisW: they say for stability reasons22:35
benjihmm, ZCA is actually pretty simple, so if they can't handle it, they probably won't be happy with much ;)22:35
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MrTopfbenji: I think so, too. It's mostly unknown and you once need to understand how to use it22:35
* ChrisW laughs in their general direction ;-) (unless they have a huge existing codebase in 2.3, although 2.3 has bugs and isn't maintained anymore, so stability seems like a silly idea...)22:35
MrTopfalso the benefits have been discussed quite a bit now. Like why have interface if you have 1 implementation for 1 interface anyway22:36
MrTopfthey have a huge existing code base I think22:36
ChrisWindeed, I just register adapters for classes most of the time...22:36
MrTopfwhole Second Life runs on 2.3 (well, not everything is python)22:36
* ChrisW bets they didn't do tdd either...22:36
J1mYou mean register classes as adapters?22:36
MrTopfthe thing is though that this library is not meant to be used in SL production, it's just a library which should help testing the new protocol22:37
ChrisWno, I mean register adapters against classes instead of interfaces. often base classes22:37
ChrisWworks just fine :-)22:37
MrTopfso it mainly does network requests and sees if the result is ok22:37
MrTopfso it's more an internal decision not to install python 2.4 in parallel22:37
J1mChrisW, were you talking to me?22:37
MrTopfor 2.522:37
ChrisWyep, in response to the "register classes as adapters" question22:38
J1mright, "register classes as adapter", not "register adapters for classes".22:38
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* ChrisW can't follow :-S22:38
J1mIf your adapter is a class, you can make security declarations for the class directly, rather than specifying a permission for the adapter as part of the adapter registration.22:39
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MrTopfso I guess I will do my own library then which uses ZCA and 2.4+22:39
ChrisWah, okay, we got crossed with a conversation about whether you need interfaces for ZCA ;-)22:39
ChrisWbut I think I understand now22:39
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ChrisWif only I could figure out why Zope 2 is throwing unauth exceptions when I have a view's method protected by a permission that the current user has :-(22:40
MrTopfand buildout unfortunately also didn't turn out as repeatable as I thought22:40
MrTopfspent the whole last week to figure out why it's not working for most other people22:40
ChrisWMrTopf: that's surprising... since I bit the bullet and learned it, I've found it extremely repeatable22:40
ChrisWdid you use a versions section?22:41
MrTopfChrisW: that's my experience, too22:41
benjiMrTopf: that's unfortunate -- and somewhat unusual -- what kinds of problems did you have?22:41
ChrisW(and a to get started)22:41
MrTopfwell, it starts with the recent setuptools problem with svn 1.522:41
ChrisWah, I don't use any of that svn interfaction gubbinz, which likely makes me imune22:42
MrTopfthen somebody had windows issues as some egg needs PyOpenSSL which needs to be compiled22:42
benjiyep, the setuptools problem is unfortunate indeed, but not really a buildout problem, anything using setup tools will have similar issues22:42
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MrTopfbenji: right. I now even build a different which ships with a dev version of setuptools and install this22:43
* ChrisW still sighs at the general state of suck in package management in python including both pypi and setuptools... distutils has a lot of blame to carry too...22:43
MrTopfthen Mac OS ships with zope.interface 3.3.0 which gives a problem with zope.component 3.4.0 which was unfortunatyle both installed in the buildout22:43
benjifor PyOpenSSL, if there are no binary distributions, you can provide your own (but bugging the project maintainer might be the easiest thing to do)22:43
benjioh, never, ever use the system Python, ever22:44
MrTopfbenji: sure but they wanted something which works directly without bugging anybody ;-)22:44
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MrTopfbenji: I know but they were hard to convince to install a separate python22:44
ChrisWzope.interface ships in MacOS? cute :-)22:44
J1mOh, MrTopf isn't using a clean Python.  That violates the buildout warranty.22:44
MrTopf"why not use what's already there?"22:44
MrTopfJ1m: I do ;-)22:44
MrTopfthe rest of the group does not22:45
MrTopfthe strange thing was though that the buildout worked on my machine but not on somebody else's22:45
MrTopfand there was some other problem when installing zope.component for somebody22:45
ChrisWwhat happened on their machine?22:45
MrTopfso all in all they spent a week without being productive and they apparently have a deadline on sunday22:45
MrTopfChrisW: It's what I posted to the zope list22:46
MrTopfand I must say I am a little tired now of defending all that stuff in long nights and trying to find workarounds22:47
MrTopfplus explaining what the heck ZCA is22:47
MrTopfso here is the mail from this morning about revisiting architecture choices:
ChrisWweird, why would OverflowError not be around?22:48
MrTopfand here is some other traceback from somebody trying it earlier:
MrTopfI was also looking this evening in creating a new bootstrap script which has virtualenv included22:49
MrTopfbut for some reason it does not work...22:49
MrTopfmaybe I should look at Ignas bootstrap.py22:50
MrTopfor maybe I should not care anymore and tell people to install a fresh python :)22:50
ChrisWI wonder if Ignas is still on holiday?22:50
MrTopfhe was in here earlier22:50
MrTopfjust left when I paid attention22:50
benjiHmm, changing build systems the week before a deadline doesn't sound appealing.22:56
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MrTopfwell, the whole project was just started22:58
MrTopfas an open source project22:58
MrTopfand I at least wasn't aware of any deadline they had22:59
MrTopfI mainly tried to propose components I work with every day and to me at least have proven quite useful22:59
MrTopfesp. on the long run22:59
MrTopfnot for a 10 line script22:59
benjiyep, build systems tend to sneak up on you, then one day you realize that it takes a week to get a new developer set up and deploying new servers is a nightmare, better to do it "right" from the begining23:00
MrTopfso, the list now has another guy saying he won't contribute because of our architectural decisions to use zca and grok and he wants plain python23:01
benjiarchitectural decisions take strong leadership, more so in open source23:02
MrTopfyeah, but I discuss this for a month now23:02
MrTopfand basically we voted for using it23:02
MrTopfeven tonight23:02
MrTopfand it's a little strange situation as it's also a project inside Linden Lab.23:04
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MrTopfand now I maybe move on to more fun stuff :)23:05
benjithen the choice comes down to the dissenter, does he whine about the group's choices or hold his tounge and contribute23:05
MrTopfwell, if there would be such a thing as a choice ;-)23:05
MrTopfas said, we just have choosen to use ZCA and buildout but 2 hours later this descision is questioned again23:06
MrTopfbecause of 2.3 and general confusion about ZCA23:06
MrTopfso in general I would be ok if ZCA would not be used as long as we manage to structure the code well nevertheless23:07
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MrTopfI might still add a layer on top of it which uses it23:07
MrTopfbut it will be reinventing the wheel anyway.. when it e.g. comes to some event system23:08
MrTopfand what I meant was "if there would be such a thing as a decision"23:08
benjiit doesn't bode well for a group that can't make a hard decisions23:10
MrTopftoo many stakeholders I guess23:11
MrTopfwhich only slowly come out of their holes23:11
MrTopfbut anyway, I will not just wait and see what happens23:12
benjigood luck :)23:13
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MrTopfthanks :)23:14
MrTopffor now I will edit some videos from EuroPython23:15
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ccombis the wiki down ,23:45
ccombit seems back23:47
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