IRC log of #zope3-dev for Monday, 2008-07-28

MrTopfand I never know what namespace traversal adapters actually have to return00:02
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MrTopfwell, I return one object00:07
philiKONthat's what i mean00:07
MrTopfso /++users++tao/ will result in some user object00:07
MrTopfthat's at least what traverse() returns00:08
CSWookiephiliKON: What was it you said I should check out when I was growsing about browser:page ?  grokcore?00:08
philiKONsvn co svn://
MrTopfunfortunately I get a 40400:08
philiKONMrTopf: well, does the user object have a default view?00:08
MrTopfcan't this be a __call__?00:09
* CSWookie co's and looks.00:09
philiKONMrTopf: this ain't zope2 :)00:09
MrTopfwell, I am in zope2 ;-)00:09
philiKONMrTopf: ah00:09
philiKONMrTopf: hmm00:09
philiKONMrTopf: dunno00:09
MrTopfwell, thanks anyway :)00:10
MrTopfI think I really will move to Django with this app00:11
* CSWookie wonders if he should change his nickname to something more reminiscent of his real one.00:11
MrTopfsomehow zope makes all the simple stuff so complicated ;-)00:11
philiKONwell, the ++foo++bar stuff is complicated00:12
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philiKONand unnecessary most of the time00:12
philiKONanyway, i feel grok uncomplicates it a lot :)00:12
MrTopfwell, unfortunately there are several ways in Zope to do traversal hooks00:12
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MrTopfand I never know what to use and how00:12
philiKONwhich is why there's only one (and a half) way to do them in grok ;)00:12
MrTopfmy only fear with grok always is that it more or less hides this stuff. ones you hit the boundaries of what grok accomplishes the learning curve suddenly explodes00:13
philiKONand what makes you think that django won't do that?00:14
philiKONat some point, with any framework, you'll find yourself wandering their source code00:14
philiKONlooking for clues00:14
philiKONi don't think zope is much different there ;)00:14
MrTopfI used it00:14
MrTopfand it has it's issues00:14
MrTopfbut I can read the code and everything is clear00:14
MrTopfwell, the big picture is mostly missing for me.. like where to start to look? what component needs what other component etc.00:15
MrTopfe.g. in Django it is clear how to do stuff but you might find some issue where it's not doing what you expect. Then you might look at the code00:15
MrTopfwith zope is starts with finding out how to do stuff00:15
MrTopfI mean, I like it and promote it but sometimes I also think that productivity could be higher00:16
MrTopfand now for the next traversal variant, maybe this one works00:17
CSWookieMy problem with Zope tends to be "WTF?  I adapted foo to IBar, and got a Baz, and I wanted a Quux."  Then I have to figure out why Quux won and not Baz, which is hard, because I haven't figured out a good way grovel the registry yet.00:17
CSWookies/Quux won and not Baz/Baz won and not Quux/00:18
CSWookieThat being said, I'm generally very happy with zope, so long as I don't have to use browser:*00:20
CSWookieMrTopf: Incidentally, shouldn't all of the caps.* urls on the Capability link you put in use https?00:22
MrTopfCSWookie: you mean in my blog post? Yes, I changed one but just spotted some others00:23
MrTopfonly the public ones though00:23
MrTopfthe private ones don't need to be00:23
* MrTopf needs a coffee00:24
CSWookieMrTopf: I'm only bothering you at this because I mailed the link to my team at work, and I don't want to look like a tard :-)00:24
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mcdoncthe in there is cruft00:28
mcdonc(flailing trying to figure out some plugin for repoze.who that was willing to parse llsd info)00:29
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MrTopfmcdonc: yay! :)00:29
MrTopfI will then annoy you tomorrow on how to get this to run :)00:30
mcdoncits in the readme00:30
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mcdoncits way, way way  way way way way00:31
mcdoncthan getting plone to run00:31
MrTopfwell, Plone mostly is a buildout and instance fg00:31
mcdonci guess i should say that what the setup does is far less devious than what the plone buildout does00:33
MrTopfok, setuptools barks of course00:33
MrTopfwell, I have svn 1.5 installed00:34
MrTopfneed to move some dev setuptools in there00:34
MrTopfIf I'd only knew how I do that ;-)00:35
MrTopfI copied it into site-packages and adjusted setuptools.pth00:36
mcdonccan you run develop on it in the virtualenv?00:36
mcdoncor install?00:36
MrTopfok, I needed to adjust easy_install.pth00:36
MrTopfof course I could have easy_installed the new setuptools ;-)00:36
* mcdonc waits for lxml to fail to compile00:37
MrTopfoh, last time it compiled00:37
MrTopfbut didn't work ;)00:37
MrTopfbuilding it now00:37
mcdoncits ok the app doesnt use it anyway00:37
MrTopfyay for dependencies :)00:37
MrTopf    ImportError: dlopen(/Users/cs/prj/secondlife/pyogp/bfg/bfg.agentdomain/lib/python2.5/site-packages/lxml-2.1beta3-py2.5-macosx-10.5-i386.egg/lxml/, 2): Symbol not found: _xmlDictExists00:39
MrTopf  Referenced from: /Users/cs/prj/secondlife/pyogp/bfg/bfg.agentdomain/lib/python2.5/site-packages/lxml-2.1beta3-py2.5-macosx-10.5-i386.egg/lxml/etree.so00:39
MrTopf  Expected in: dynamic lookup00:39
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mcdoncof course00:39
MrTopfso much for this00:39
* mcdonc makes a mental note to make lxml optional00:39
MrTopflooks like uses it00:40
MrTopfso is there some trick to make it compile?00:40
MrTopfwell, work00:40
MrTopfI mean in general it would be nice to be able to use lxml :)00:41
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MrTopfbut I might check google or mailing lists for that00:41
MrTopfand will try again tomorrow under Linux00:41
MrTopfnow back to my traverser :)00:41
MrTopflook, it works :)00:42
MrTopfI now took a view called +++users+++ and made it traversable, so I can say +++users+++/tao00:43
philiKONuh huh00:44
MrTopfjust the next step does not work, like putting a view on that user object00:46
MrTopfphiliKON: which way does grok actually supply?00:47
MrTopflike which interface is it using?00:47
philiKONunder the hood it uses IPublishTraverse / IBrowserPublisher00:47
* MrTopf always wanted to write a blog post about the various ways of doing traversal in Zope2 but first he needs to get them working ;-)00:48
MrTopfic, I now use IPublishTraverse00:48
philiKONiin zope >=2.10 it's pretty much alla bout IPublishTraverse00:48
MrTopfok, thanks00:49
MrTopfthen at least I am doing nothing wrong in this part :)00:49
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MrTopfnow the only question is why that user object is not able to have a view00:49
* MrTopf looks at how devilstick does it00:50
* MrTopf looks into pdb..00:58
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MrTopfgreat, now it works without any changes..01:04
MrTopfthe only question now is why that +++users+++ is not appearing in absolute_url()01:08
mcdoncok... this is a travesty but...
mcdoncit takes forever to run01:08
mcdoncbecause it builds libx{ml,slt}01:09
MrTopfso libxml and libxslt which ship are the problem?01:09
MrTopfI guess we will end up with buildouts which as first thing compile all sorts of libraries ;-)01:11
MrTopfor install some VMWare01:11
MrTopfI am testing it now01:12
MrTopfI think it takes forever to run01:12
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MrTopfso I guess in order to make /+++users+++/tao/@@view the proper way I should register some traversal adapter for plone root which returns a dummy object +++users+++ and then another adapter for this virtual object which then traverses to my actual user?01:13
mcdoncon the plus side, the buildout does show how to compile an lxml against non-default sources01:14
MrTopfI will definitely keep this bookmarked for reference ;-)01:14
MrTopfok, building lxml now01:14
MrTopfit says though: Building against libxml2/libxslt in the following directory: /usr/lib01:15
mcdoncaw hell01:15
mcdonci know why01:16
mcdoncsorry bout that01:16
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mcdoncyou need to run the buildout via     $ XSLT_CONFIG=`pwd`/parts/libxslt/bin/xslt-config \01:16
mcdonc      XML2_CONFIG=`pwd`/parts/libxml2/bin/xml2-config bin/buildout01:16
mcdonci forgot01:17
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MrTopfok, next try01:19
MrTopfin the meanwhile my agentdomain with Plone also works01:19
mcdoncvery good01:19
MrTopfwith some faking of URLs01:19
MrTopfas I make the component know that it's located in the root01:20
MrTopfotoh I would do the same with some root like approach01:20
MrTopfroutes like01:20
MrTopfnow I only need to code the actual connection to a region domain01:20
MrTopfwhich means I need to figure out what the protocol is because that's not really documented right now01:20
MrTopfbut I have a patch for opensim01:21
MrTopfit would be so much easier imho to just make a branch of opensim01:21
MrTopfinstead of shipping patches..01:22
MrTopfor use mercurial or somesuch01:22
mcdonci should figure out how to use svn urls from easy_install01:23
mcdonci never did quite get the zen01:23
MrTopfyou mean this stuff: easy_install --editable --build-directory ~/projects SQLObject ?01:25
mcdoncno, i mean like easy_install
mcdoncor somesuch01:25
MrTopfwell, it says at this example that this is how you use svn checkouts01:26
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MrTopfit does not say though how it finds the checkout url01:26
mcdoncyeah... i dunno either01:26
MrTopfit says in 0.3a2 though: # Added subversion download support for svn: and svn+ URLs, as well as automatic recognition of HTTP subversion URLs (Contributed by Ian Bicking)01:27
mcdonci have a feeling that knowing how that worked would make my life easier01:28
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MrTopfthis seems to work: easy_install
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MrTopfthe buildout did not work though, I will check again tomorrow01:31
MrTopfthe last thing for today will be patching opensim and compiling it01:32
MrTopfC# looks ugly btw ;-)01:32
mcdonci suppose no amount of effort is going to make it work01:33
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MrTopfI might install new libxml/libxslt libs via fink or so01:35
MrTopfmaybe that helps01:35
mcdoncwho knows01:39
MrTopfthat's why I went back to using ElementTree in that package I wrote yesterday01:40
MrTopfI even removed ZCA from that package again to make it as plain python as possible.01:41
mcdoncyup.  the reason we use is because it's much faster.  but also a pain.01:42
mcdoncit's definitely a case of paying for what you don't eat, so i will make it optional.01:43
MrTopfgreat, opensim patch fails..01:43
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mcdoncalright... i threw good money after bad and set it up over here..
mcdoncthat uses routes01:46
mcdoncthe "root" view uses graph traversal01:47
mcdonc(because no Route matches)01:47
mcdoncoops that should be
MrTopfworks, thanks :)01:49
mcdonc(where username and rand are replaceable)01:49
MrTopfI will play around with this a little should I have some time this week01:49
MrTopfand try to make it work with the actual agent domain stuff01:49
mcdoncok, i'll shut up now01:50
MrTopfthanks for all this effort :)01:50
mcdoncfucking useless01:50
MrTopfnah :)01:50
MrTopfOGP at this state is rather useless ;-)01:50
MrTopfnevertheless Linden Lab announced some beta ;-)01:50
MrTopfwhich should have been more "hey, we are providing a developer sandbox"01:51
mcdonci basically just cant take it to see plone used for this sort of thing, it's out of spite ;-)01:51
MrTopfwell, the idea is: You have a social networking site, how do you turn this into an agent domain01:51
MrTopfbut you might be right that I maybe should have started with something simpler if I only want to experiment with the interfaces01:52
MrTopfprobably I should have made this as some sort of unit test01:53
mcdoncor a straight wsgi app01:54
MrTopfyep, maybe as mockup like I did the mockup agentdomain as wsgi app for testing the lib01:54
mcdoncmore specifically i'd like people to stop asking me for a "plone app" when what they want is something completely different, and if i can make a small difference towards that goal and people start to use other stuff when its appropriate, i'll be happier.01:55
MrTopfPlone isn't too bad, it just maybe needs to get ported away from Zope2 and made Plone Light ;-)01:56
mcdoncits great when its appropriate.01:57
MrTopfwell, compared to Django I at least like the fact that many things are already in place, like some layout, or user management01:57
mcdoncwell, django has user management, but no layout indeed01:58
MrTopfso when I started this project in Django I first needed to do som stuff which had nothing to do with the actual problem I wanted to solve01:58
mcdoncthat said, your app doesn't need any layout, because real browsers dont talk to it01:58
MrTopfand that user management was too inflexible for what I needed01:59
MrTopfyes, this app doesn't need it01:59
MrTopfbut the other one needed it :)01:59
MrTopfand I agree that Django might have been the better choice (if it only would be eggifyable)01:59
mcdoncit is... i've done it.01:59
MrTopfI thought it's not supported01:59
mcdoncold branch tho02:00
mcdoncalthough all it would take is updating the files in the checkout02:00
MrTopfso you can make your own app an egg? and maybe use buildout?02:00
mcdoncyou have to ignore the "project" concept in the book02:01
mcdoncand just go straight to the package02:01
MrTopfok, makes sense02:02
MrTopfnever looked too deep into it02:02
mcdonclook deeper! ;-)02:02
MrTopfsomeday :)02:02
MrTopfwhen I have to redeploy that app ;-)02:02
mcdoncplone is the new MS02:02
mcdonc"i would try to use something else but i dont have time"02:02
MrTopfok, opensim is running :)02:03
MrTopfnice findings like this: +        ulong fakeHandle = m_Parent.GridService.getHandleHack(); // REALLY BAD02:08
MrTopfsomehow reminds me of Zope2 ;-)02:10
mcdoncdjango reminds me of zope202:11
MrTopfI agree it could be cleaner.. but from the three TG, Pylons and Django I choose it because it seemed to have the best documentation and the community around it also seems very helpful02:13
MrTopfok, now for debugging C#02:14
mcdoncdjango reminds me of zope2 just because they are hostile to external dependencies mostly.. which is probably a good thing in most cases, but it does make it a little insular02:14
mcdoncthere "django", then the rest of the python web dev community... they dont mix much.02:15
MrTopfyeah, true02:15
MrTopfat least I was able to use tal02:16
MrTopfbut it would also be a plus to be able to exchange the ORM02:16
mcdonci predict a django backlash02:21
mcdonclike the zope2 backlash of 200302:21
mcdoncit may take longer because django is less "weird" than zope, but eventually other stuff is going to surpass its built in stuff, and people will want to use it, and it just wont work02:22
mcdoncbut in the meantime, it does definitely have all the mindshare and the best docs02:23
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MrTopfadd Google AppEngine to it02:28
mcdonctrue, although i think that may turn into a flop02:28
MrTopfI mean it's not that hard to use other stuff in Django02:29
MrTopfjust replacing the ORM is not that easy ;-)02:29
mcdoncbecause you can't build big apps in it02:29
mcdoncor, rather, you can, but they will only run there02:29
MrTopftrue, you are bound to it but so are people who use EC202:30
MrTopfmaybe not as much02:30
mcdonca little less maybe... you can still use S3 from outside.02:31
MrTopfbut for many startups it's still easier to use such things as you don't have to worry about scaling02:31
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MrTopfand GAE will not be the end02:31
MrTopfbut for now it might mean some promotion  for Python02:32
mcdonci think it would be useful to have a zodb storage written in terms of bigtable02:32
MrTopfwhich is not necessarily a bad thing ;-)02:32
mcdoncit would probably be simple02:32
MrTopfisn't this what Malthe is doing?02:32
mcdonci thought he was doing dobbin?02:32
MrTopfwell, he was playing around with bigtable at the EP sprint02:32
mcdoncah cool02:32
mcdoncif you had a zodb storage for bigtable, and we could get rid of the C extensions in zodb, you could write once run anywhere just about02:33
* mcdonc takes another stab at making a Persistent metaclass02:36
MrTopfwell, good luck :)02:38
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MrTopfI will go to bed now, late enough02:38
MrTopfand I have no clue what the problem in opensim is anyway ;-)02:38
mcdoncnight MrTopf02:39
MrTopfthanks for bfg.agentdomain! :)02:39
MrTopfand your help :)02:39
mcdoncworthless, but you're welcome ;-)02:39
MrTopfI will turn this into a full fledged agentdomain someday :)02:39
MrTopfok, cya! :)02:40
mcdonchere's to hoping.. adios02:40
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mintsauceZope 3 ICredentialPlugin recommendations? Any for OAuth?16:44
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MrTopfoha, OAuth comes to the Zope world.. :)16:58
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MrTopfI wonder if there's some wsgi component for it16:59
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afd_mintsauce: just saw this on the django aggregator, maybe it's useful to you:
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mintsauceafd_: interesting, thanks.17:21
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mintsauceReading through PVW's Zope 3 book, he makes a sensible, valid case for avoiding using cookie based logins, then goes ahead and uses cookies instead of sessions! Are there any tutorials based around session login?17:45
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afd_mintsauce: just enable the session credentials17:48
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mintsauceafd_: 'just' ....... bearing in mind im new to Zope3 ... how do i enable them?17:49
afd_But, in case you want to scale up (multiple zeo clients), I'm not sure they're a good idea. The default session container is lives in zodb, which will cause a lot of writes to the db. Cookies are really better17:49
mintsauceafd_: really? despite storing security critical info on the client? (PVW's point, not mine)17:50
afd_mintsauce: select the session credentials utility as credentials plugin in the pluggable authentication utility, in the site management17:50
afd_I'll have to read that chapter to be able to comment on that17:52
afd_but, unless I'm wrong, the session also uses a cookie to identify clients17:52
afd_though it might be possible to write a cookie credentials plugin that hashes the client ip into the data stored on the user browser17:53
afd_as to make it safer17:53
mintsauceafd_: that is kinda what he suggests, but it's still client based, so an inherent risk out of our control ...... but thanks for your thoughts/help :)17:54
afd_np :)17:54
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afd_mintsauce: also, I think the author has published the credentials plugin as a separate package on pypi, you could look into that17:57
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srichtermgedmin: I am going to give you access to all packages on PyPI that I have access to; what's your PiPY id?18:02
mgedminsrichter: mgedmin18:03
mgedminand thansk18:03
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srichtermgedmin: ok, it's running through the script now; btw, the scripts to easily add people to packages is in zope.pypisupport18:06
srichtermgedmin: thank you for helping out with the KGS18:06
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srichtermgedmin: it's strange, you could not upload the latest controlled-packages.cfg to download.zope.org18:08
srichterthe group seems to be set correctly and it has write perms on the group18:08
mgedminit's the shell, I believe18:09
mgedminI get "Command not accepted"18:09
ignasouch ouch ouch, python2.5 support in Zope is broken in a very "interesting" way18:09
srichtermgedmin: ahh, ok, you might not have a shell18:09
srichterthat's something Jim can fix :-)18:09
ignasapparently - all the exceptions ins python2.4 were of <type 'instance'> , and were using _instanceChecker18:09
mgedminignas: old-style vs new-style classes, just like I suspected18:10
ignasin python2.5 - exceptions have types of their own like: <class 'zope.publisher.interfaces.NotFound'>18:10
ignasand _checkers dict18:10
ignashas no entries for these kinds of exceptions18:10
ignasso it's as if none of the exceptions have any checkers defined for them18:10
ignasand C code says:18:11
ignasif it's an exception and it has no specific checker defined - return None18:11
ignasand the other C code says:18:11
ignasif something has a checker set to None - raise an error!18:11
* ignas is not sure why if objects with a checker set to None are invalid there is code in Zope3 that sets checker to None18:13
ignasand why/how did python and C versions of such core functions have diverged18:13
ignaspoor jython developers who will be porting Zope3 to jython...18:14
mgedminwhy poor?  you'll have it fixed before they notice ;)18:14
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whitwhere is the best place to ask buildout questions?18:16
ignas#j1m ;)18:17
benji_whit: either here or distutils-sig list18:17
* benji_ gets irritated with idiot that keeps taking my nick and ghosts him.18:17
whitit looks like something changes in how some vars (ie buildout:egg-directory) get computed18:18
whitOSError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/Users/whit/dev/geo/alm3//Users/whit/dev/geo/alm3/develop-eggs'18:19
whitis the result for:18:19
whiteggs-directory = ${buildout:directory}/develop-eggs18:19
whitinstead of:18:19
whit '/Users/whit/dev/geo/alm3/develop-eggs18:20
whit(which I believe works until at least 1.0.2)18:20
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* whit cuts and pastes and sends to disutils-sig18:20
ignasseems like your path for eggs-directory got computed properly, but while it is absolute, it was treated as if it was relative by  buildout...18:21
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ignasnot that I know why it happened18:21
whitthe fix is easy but not graphic designer easy ;)18:22
* whit goes to fix crying ui peoples builds18:22
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J1mwhit, can you try sending me a fill traceback?18:37
whitJ1m: sure18:38
J1mOh, I see you sent something to distutils.18:38
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whitJ1m: here's the traceback.... not too much to look at:
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J1mwhit, can you send me a buildout that I can try to run to reproduce this?18:45
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J1mThe path manipilation is being done with os.path.join, so I don't see why you are getting the error you're getting.18:46
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whitJ1m: it seems like there was no manipulation before (1.0.2)18:49
whitiow, I declare my path, and it was used18:49
whitbut yeah, that's wierd18:49
whitjoin would resolve the //18:49
J1mYes, there was, but it changed in the most recent release.18:49
* whit makes sure he is using the versions he thinks he is18:51
whit1.1.0 is on the path18:52
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J1m1.1.0 is the most recent and it *does* have changes in path manipulation.18:53
J1mI don't doubt that the change is causing the problem you're having.18:54
J1mI need to debug it.18:54
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* mgedmin wonders if buildout can make it simple to test the same project with two different python versions19:07
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mgedminhm, unreleased wants an unreleased zope.proxy :/19:09
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whitare there any docs out there for using and creating custom itemswidgets?19:40
whitw/ formlib19:40
whitlooks like a factory function is what you have to start with19:40
whitnvrmd... figured it out19:42
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srichterJ1m: do you have to do something specific to give someone ssh access to mgedmin would like to help out with the KGS maintainance, but cannot get into the box21:28
J1mYes, I have to do something specific.21:28
srichterJ1m: could you do this for mgedmin please?21:29
J1myes, done21:29
srichterthanks a lot21:29
srichterI'll let him know and get him started21:30
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philiKONJ1m: ping22:54
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benjiphiliKON: Temporary failure in name resolution.22:57
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philiKONhow temporary? ;)22:57
benjino idea; he's not at his desk and hasn't been for a while22:58
philiKONi see22:58
philiKONon well, i guess he'll see that i pinged him when he gets back22:58
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J1mphiliKON, pong23:52
philiKONJ1m: did you get my email about the releases?23:53
J1mI dunno23:53
J1mwhen did you send it?23:53
philiKONit was on zope-dev as well23:53
J1mwhat was the subject?23:53
philiKONRunning the 3.4 KGS tests: 9 fail, 6 errors23:54
philiKONi sent the email about 23 hours ago23:54
J1mk, sure23:54
J1mthis is about te kgs.23:55
J1mNot sure about releases.23:55
philiKONthis isn't really about the KGS23:55
philiKONit's about shane's fixes23:55
philiKONwhich he did on various trunks23:55
philiKONand i created release tags23:55
philiKONbut i don't have PyPI rights to all packages23:55
philiKONalso, id on't have a windows machine23:55
philiKONto build binary eggs23:55
philiKON(all affected packages have C code, which Shane fixed)23:56
srichterphiliKON: I can run my script for you ;-)23:56
J1moh, so someone wants bdist_egg releases.23:56
philiKONJ1m: yes, basically someone (I) wants   python register sdist bdist_egg upload   :)23:56
srichterphiliKON: for Windows, ...23:56
philiKONeggsactly ;)23:56
J1mk, from those tags.23:56
J1mk, I can do that.23:56
srichterbtw, I am willing to build binary packages as well23:57
srichterI have my VMWare setup correctly23:57
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J1mbingo! :)23:57
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