IRC log of #zope3-dev for Wednesday, 2008-09-10

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regebroHow do I debug a buildout that can't find an egg best?11:56
romanofskibin/buildout -vv11:56
regebroThe egg (z3extui.rotterdam) exists in and I have in the find-links.11:56
regebroromanofski: But it just sais that it can't find it. Not very useful...11:57
srichteryou should use it as index11:57
regebrosrichter: Aha!11:57
srichterotherwise you have to directly point to the dir11:57
regebrosrichter: Weird that the z3ext buildout works. They have pypi as index, and the KGS in find-links. Oh well.11:59
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regebrosrichter: Aha! That still didn't work, but now I got a good error message. The package doesn't exist on pypi.12:01
regebroEvidently, because they renamed it to z3ext.ui.rotterdam, and then removed the old packages. Grrrrrr.12:02
regebroOK, I can get around that.12:03
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regebroIs anyone else then Nikolay Kim + the other guys using z3ext? Because I'm trying to evaluate it. Again (Tried in April too), and its' broken.12:53
regebroJust as it was in April.12:53
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regebroIf it's constantly broken and not possible to evaluate, then it's kinda hard for other to use. :-/12:54
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regebromalthe: ping!13:37
maltheregebro: pong!13:44
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regebromalthe: I was just gonna ask if Vudo was compatible with Grok, but timte told me it isn't.13:48
maltheregebro: well, compatible yes, but we don't currently use it13:48
malthealso, Vudo is in the process of being reinvented a little bit (see
malthewe're about to go down a library path and we're repoze.bfg-based.13:49
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regebromalthe: OK, do you have an elevator pitch you can do, to what it actually does and why I should use it? :)13:50
maltheregebro: yes!13:51
malthethat wasn't the pitch; here it comes...13:51
maltheso currently we just have one offering: ``vudo.bfg``.13:51
malthewhy should you use it: because it greatly simplifies skinning a website in terms of complexity13:52
malthethe template is central and you simply pull in API as needed13:52
maltheno more ZCML or browser views13:52
malthethe filename *is* the name of the view and templates double as METAL macros13:53
malthehowever, unlike Zope 2 skins, ``vudo.bfg`` templates are registered as components, so they can be targeted13:53
malthethe only catch is that we didn't invent a way to get to the API's yet!13:54
maltheso it's useless at the moment.13:54
malthewe're considering context/@@my_api, but then we don't want to use path-expressions13:54
maltheit'll probably some like tal:define="my_api api.navigation"13:54
regebromalthe: OK, interesting.13:55
maltheor if you need a different context, tal:define="my_api api(my_other_context).navigation"13:55
regebroSkinning is a later topic, so I don't need to look at it yet, thankfully. :)13:55
regebroI'll look at it when (if) the project gets there. Cool stuff!13:56
maltheregebro: my take on it is that it needs to be easier to take some code and provide your own templates13:56
timtemalthe: so the web designer needs to learn this new expression language?13:56
malthetimte: Python?13:56
maltheit's just Python, but with a few conventions (variables)13:56
maltheso far: ``macros`` and probably, ``api``13:57
malthee.g. you can say metal:use-macro="macros.global_navigation"13:57
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timte"take zope into the future" - sounds good14:06
malthetimte: :-)14:07
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thekryzCan someone tell me any differences between a Python dictionary and JSON?14:22
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thruflojson is an object notation sytax for strings14:24
thrufloif you get a json string like '{'a': 'b'}' then you can convert it to a python dict (and vice versa) using simplejson, etc.14:24
thrufloa python dict is a native datatype14:25
thekryzbut the notation is almost the same14:25
* thruflo nods - although json can also have strings, integers and lists14:26
thekryzso I was wondering about the differences. Maybe one is that you can put any kind of Python object into a Dict, while JSON is quite restrictive in that respect14:26
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fairwindsproject01: ping17:09
fairwindsoops projekt01: ping17:09
fairwindshey ya roger. I want to split up z3c.form into subpackages so we can use it in other frameworks17:10
fairwindsi don't see stephan here today but would like to call the package z3c.input and have subpackages under this ie. z3c.input.form, z3c.input.widgets, z3c.input.validators etc17:12
projekt01fairwinds, I think three is an refactoring right now of z3c.form, I guess malthe implements support17:12
maltheI do, I do17:12
projekt01I guess srichter and malthe know more about that17:12
maltheprojekt01: we need to think of a way to use z3c.form without complete zope buyin17:12
projekt01faisrwinds, what do you mena by split z3c.form? in what parts?17:13
maltheperhaps the core z3c.form package should limit itself more17:13
fairwindsyes this is only for template portion though. I am concerned about this refactoring without as many zope dependencies17:13
projekt01malthe, do we have new dependencies because of or is this an optional part?17:14
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maltheprojekt01: we have dependencies because of z3c.form's add forms and friends17:14
malthee.g. the higher-level components17:14 is optional, too17:14
projekt01malthe, throw the IAdding part away ;-)17:14
maltheprojekt01: and
fairwindswe currently have dependencies on many zope packages. but splitting this we can rely on some core packages and also use some new without zope dependencies.17:15
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fairwindsso other frameworks such as repoze can use some packages without using all of it where it draws in more zope17:17
projekt01fairwinds, what do you think whould be good for split out?17:17
projekt01I think we should remove any useless dependency from z3c.form but that depends not on addons17:18
projekt01are you scarry about the lxml dependency like me because three is not always a windows binary for lxml?17:19
fairwindsthere seems to be some nice concept of division in interfaces for package. perhaps we look at subpackages along the lines of the interface groupings that currently exist here17:20
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projekt01lxml will make it required that we release z3c.form with lxml 1.2.1 or so and I know others use lxml 1.2.2 allready in their projects17:20
projekt01srichter, ^^^^17:20
fairwindssrichter: hi ya17:21
projekt01since there is no lxml support for any newest pacakge for windows we can't use them in release17:21
projekt01If we make lxml a dependency for z3c.form we have to support better windows releases for lxml, we probably need to talk with Martijn about that17:22
projekt01malthe, ^^^ ?17:23
fairwindssrichter:  I would like to refactor z3c.form into some subpackages to we can rely on some core packages and permit use in other packages without so many zope dependencies17:23
projekt01fairwinds, what do you think is usefull outside z3c.form?17:25
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fairwindsmuch of it I believe. repoze still uses CA so we want to continue using zope.schema in conjunction with form generation17:26
srichterthere is no dpenendency on in z3c.form17:26
srichterit is a soft dependnecy only17:26
projekt01fairwinds, do you think about schema - dataconverter e.g. some components which can be used for any schema field17:26
projekt01srichter, but lxml?17:26
* malthe looks17:26
srichterand if you are not using lxml for your XML needs you are a fool ;-)17:26
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projekt01the problem is the version of lxml17:27
srichterno, lxml is only pinned in buildout.cfg17:27
maltheprojekt01: runs, although it limbs, without lxml17:27
malthethat's a goal for 1.0.017:27
srichterit makes no assertion on th edpes17:27
projekt01cool ;-)17:27
malthewe still need an XPath evaluator and PDIS.Xpath has disappointed17:28
srichterin Keas we use 1.2.2 for example17:28
projekt01even more cool17:28
maltheprojekt01: we need to get rid of dependencies17:28
projekt01I see, but z3c.form requires a lesser version and that's fine, right?17:28
projekt01yes, yes, yes17:28
malthe:-)17:28 requires lxml 2.1.1 :-(17:29
srichterfairwinds: what dpes do you want to remove?17:29
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srichtercorrection: at Keas we use 2.1.217:29
projekt01malthe, yes we always need to verify if there is a windows binary for lxml. otherwise it's impossible to release public17:30
fairwindssrichter: not remove anything really, just split up so packages can be consumed selectively17:30
projekt01It's alomost impossible to compile lxml for windows users17:30
srichterfairwinds: can you give me examples? A concrete proposal would be nice17:30
maltheprojekt01: ditto Mac :-)17:30
malthesrichter: what about the IPageTemplate part17:31
malthethat's a nasty dependency17:31
fairwindssrichter: or zope.security17:31
projekt01malthe, it was usefull till you added pt support ;-)17:32
maltheprojekt01: yes, but it's defined in ````17:32
maltheperhaps it should just be ``IFormTemplate``17:32
projekt01malthe, probably we should add a z3c.formzpt and z3c.formpt package?17:32
maltheprojekt01: hmm; we have which bridges these things17:33
projekt01that's fine for me, probably we should split zpt also into a own package17:33
fairwindssrichter: I see this sort of refactoring as something similar to what was done for all the zope alchemies. Now everyone relying on z3c.saconfig and z3c.alchemy as core.17:34
projekt01malthe, but I guess that ends in removeing zpt from pagelet and any other UI using package too, right?17:35
srichtermalthe: the good news is that as soon as you have ported the other packages to as well, the definition of IPageTemplate can move into
fairwinds i will need to write something up for sure but would like to see core packages so at least dependencies are isolated and consideration to removing right away17:35
fairwindsthis way we are not forking anything. folks rely on core an can diverge for framework if necessary17:36
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projekt01malthe, I thkink if is working and stable, we probably will switch any package to in a long term17:37
srichterfairwinds: I want to be somewhat conservative with z3c.form, because stability is very important and if we have 10 packages without being able to create a coherent story than that;s no good17:38
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srichterfairwinds: that said, all the current development is towards z3c.form 2.0, so more parts can move17:38
maltheprojekt01: I think in some two months we'll be in a position to say it's completely stable17:38
maltheI want to have a beta out in about two weeks and then see how it fares17:39
projekt01malthe, sounds great to me, reserve a day for dringking a beer or two with me after that ;-)17:39
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maltheprojekt01: k, I will :-)17:41
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srichterfairwinds: I think the dependency could be resolved using an extra_require like the containe3r support17:43
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fairwindssrichter:  also zope.publisher which is an issue since repoze has its own17:45
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fairwindssrichter: getting something to eat, be back in a bit17:47
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hazmatis there a known solution for setuptools issues with svn 1.5 in conjunction with buildout?18:15
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mgedmindowngrade to svn 1.418:18
mgedminnuke all checkouts18:18
mgedmincheck them out afresh18:18
mgedmincurse pje and all subversion developers18:18
mgedminrepeat last step until pain subsides18:18
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agroszermgedmin, yah that s..s18:20
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mgedminanyway, that's what I did18:25
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agroszerJ1m, hi, any infos about setuptools development opening up?18:33
timtehazmat: you can run dev06 version of setuptools18:34
J1magroszer, I have the impression that it is, but I'mnot paying close attention.18:35
agroszerthanks, anyway18:36
hazmattimte, you mean spec that version in the buildout?18:36
hazmatmgedmin, yeah.. i'm pretty close to blogosphere bashing on the setuptools18:37
hazmatmgedmin, this issue should be open till the release is out, cause its not fixed imo otherwise..
mgedminlaunchpad has "fix committed" and "fix released"18:40
mgedminI like that distinction18:40
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timtehazmat: it's probably possible to do it in a number of places, in your system python for instance, or patch the egg in your eggs directory like
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hazmattimte, thats sort of against the whole point of buildout..18:55
mgedmintimte: patching the egg is not trivial18:56
mgedminit's a shell script concatenated with a zip file18:56
mgedminthat's downloaded from the web and placed into your eggs directory18:57
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mgedminby ez_setup18:57
timtehazmat: sure, but it's just temporary until it's fixed18:57
mgedminmaybe you could unzip it in place, I dunno18:57
mgedminaccording to pje, it's already "fixed"18:57
mgedminso what if nobody can get the fix without doing an arcane dance under a full moon?18:58
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hazmattimte, how many months still qualify as temporary?19:03
hazmatsvn 1.5 released june 19th19:04
hazmatafaics alll this needs to fix is pje to spend 3 secs and kick out a release of the 0.6 maintenance branch19:05
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