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| Count-Duckula | What's the best way of creating a new Z3? I'm used to using paster for Z2? | 11:37 |
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| afd____ | maybe zopeproject (I haven't used it, though) | 11:38 |
| ccomb | Count-Duckula: http://new.zope.org/get-started | 11:38 |
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| J1m | Theuni, ayt? | 18:35 |
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| J1m | guess not | 18:35 |
| benji | heh | 18:36 |
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| Theuni | J1m: here | 18:38 |
| J1m | I think we have a problem with managing ZEO client non-shared blob directories. | 18:39 |
| Theuni | Hmm. | 18:39 |
| J1m | The blob code doesn't expect blobs to dissappear from the blob dir. | 18:39 |
| Theuni | Interesting. From the top of my head that was a minor design goal along the way. | 18:40 |
| J1m | so if someone tried to implement some cron job to remove blob files that haven't been accessed in a while, there's a chance that a blob might need to read the file. | 18:40 |
| J1m | I think I'm going to have to: | 18:40 |
| J1m | - make the blob code more robust wrt disappearing files, and | 18:40 |
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| J1m | - find some way to make sure that the file access stat is updated when a blob file is opened or when committed() is called. | 18:41 |
| J1m | especially the later. | 18:41 |
| J1m | Just thought I'd see if you have any thoughts before I start. | 18:42 |
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| * benji really wishes we didn't have to depend on a periodic process to clean up disused blobs. | 18:42 | |
| * benji mostly just hates cron. | 18:42 | |
| J1m | I hate cron too, but I want multiple clients on a machine to share a common blob directory. | 18:43 |
| J1m | so It's hard to see how some in-process cache is going to know when blobs can be removed. | 18:43 |
| benji | the same way a cron-run script would know, perhaps? | 18:44 |
| benji | i.e., the mtime | 18:44 |
| J1m | Yeah, but then you have to implement cron-like functionality. | 18:44 |
| J1m | if it bugs you, we could implement cron with zc.async. :) | 18:44 |
| benji | or clean them up gradually | 18:44 |
| benji | heh | 18:44 |
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| mgedmin | J1m: I used to be able to write to /var/www/download.zope.org/zope3.4/ on download.zope.org, but now I can't | 18:45 |
| mgedmin | could someone with write permissions there upload a new versions.cfg? | 18:45 |
| benji | say, every time you access a blob file see if there are some old blobs to clean up (probably with a limit, so you don't spend too much time at any one blob access) | 18:46 |
| mgedmin | the current one hardcodes setuptools to 0.6c8, which doesn't work with svn 1.5 | 18:46 |
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| J1m | mgedmin, strichter is the owner of zope3.4. | 18:47 |
| J1m | strichter, should I make that dir group writabe? | 18:48 |
| mgedmin | ok | 18:48 |
| mgedmin | he appears to be offline atm | 18:48 |
| J1m | benji, yeah, we could do something like that, although it is potentionally kina complicated. | 18:48 |
| J1m | benji, you really want to size-limit the blob cache. | 18:49 |
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| benji | true; that sounds like an argument against doing the clean-up incrementally, but I don't understand it | 18:49 |
| J1m | don't understand what? | 18:50 |
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| benji | why size-limiting the blob cache would require a periodic process | 18:50 |
| J1m | It doesn't require one, but I suspect it would be simpler to implement with one. | 18:51 |
| benji | in fact, enforcing the limit in an on-going way sounds safer than doing it periodically | 18:51 |
| J1m | Yes, but computing the total size is expensive and keeping a running total isn't practical with multiple clients. | 18:51 |
| benji | mmm | 18:52 |
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| J1m | unless maybe the clients stored the size in a file. | 18:54 |
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| J1m | another option might be to employ some sort of fs quota system. | 18:54 |
| J1m | or putting the blobs on a separate partition. | 18:54 |
| benji | I see some parallels between this and the external GC idea; maybe that analogy will lead to good ideas | 18:56 |
| J1m | I see it as being more like the object cache, where we really wish we had hard limits. | 18:57 |
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| J1m | which is a strike against a periodic process. | 18:59 |
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| benji | hmm | 18:59 |
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| benji | so there could be a file in the root of the blob dir that stores the total size of the contained blobs that the clients updated when they added/removed blobs and which they could use to decide when to remove an old blob file | 19:00 |
| J1m | yeah | 19:01 |
| J1m | Then when you decide to remove a file, you have a lot os stating to do to decide what to remove. | 19:01 |
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| J1m | Then when you decide to remove a file, you have a lot of stating to do to decide what to remove. | 19:01 |
| benji | hmm, could we have a ring file that stored blob IDs and last access time and use that instead of stat-o-rama? Kinda like the ZEO cache ring. | 19:02 |
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| J1m | well, you could build some sort of duplicate directory implementation. Yes. :) | 19:03 |
| benji | actually, you might not even have access time in there, just remove the "oldest" file referred to in the file | 19:03 |
| J1m | We certainly wouldn't want it to behave like the refular cache file. | 19:03 |
| benji | IOW, keep a MRU list on-disk and use that | 19:03 |
| benji | right, not as stupid as a hard ring, more MRU-like (which may be too tricky to get right) | 19:04 |
| J1m | Unless we just used the standard directory data structures. | 19:04 |
| Theuni | J1m: sorry. was gone for a second due to local interruption. | 19:04 |
| J1m | Also, I suppose we could be less incremental. | 19:05 |
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| J1m | so, say, when you reach the limit, you might decide to remove some significant percentage of blobs from the cache (e.g. 50%) rather than just enough to fit. | 19:05 |
| J1m | Then you'd amortise the stats a bit. | 19:06 |
| benji | we don't have to remove the oldest possible file each time either, we could have some age after which we're willing to remove the blob file | 19:06 |
| J1m | I also assume that stats benefit from disk caches. | 19:06 |
| J1m | yeah | 19:06 |
| benji | yeah; wouldn't want to do that much work during a request though, so that approach would have to be a periodic process, I'd think | 19:06 |
| J1m | Then you're back to not having a hard limit. | 19:07 |
| Theuni | Hmm. | 19:07 |
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| J1m | Or maybe you have a softer limit in addition to the hard limit. | 19:07 |
| Theuni | J1m: ClientStorage was designed to cope with files going away. The blob itself not, unfortunately. | 19:08 |
| J1m | so when you hit the soft limit, you start removing things, but if you hit the hard limit, you have to block. | 19:08 |
| J1m | Theuni, yup | 19:08 |
| Theuni | Because we load the blob when we load the proxy object, so committed data that goes away while having a reference to a Blob instance is a case not dealt with. | 19:08 |
| Theuni | We could make the blob instance re-issue a load in that case ... | 19:09 |
| J1m | Theuni, yes | 19:09 |
| J1m | That was my plan. | 19:09 |
| J1m | It means we have to be a bit more defensive. | 19:09 |
| Theuni | yup | 19:09 |
| benji | J1m: the hard/soft combo is interesting | 19:09 |
| J1m | The potentional race conditions will need some careful thought. | 19:10 |
| Theuni | stats do benefit from disk caches | 19:10 |
| Theuni | unfortunately access stats are very often tuned away on current systems | 19:10 |
| Theuni | initially the blob storage kept track of the sizes | 19:11 |
| J1m | Yeah, although not on any I've tried recently. :) | 19:11 |
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| Theuni | actually, initially it determined the size of the database together with the blob data | 19:11 |
| Theuni | when moving to the bushy directories this caused huge latencies on commit | 19:11 |
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| * Theuni wonders what the 'relatime' flag is | 19:12 | |
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| Theuni | ah. it only updates if the old atime is older than the mtime. | 19:13 |
| J1m | I also suspect that the ZEO blob cache would benefit from a simpler directory layout. | 19:13 |
| Theuni | you could chose to use the flat layout in that case | 19:13 |
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| Theuni | J1m: this is true if your cache is significantly smaller than the storage | 19:14 |
| Theuni | i guess having 65k blobs in the cache is sufficient for cache situations | 19:14 |
| J1m | That's generally the idea. :) | 19:14 |
| Theuni | J1m: that depends on whether your application suffers from load issues and you want your data to be everywhere :) | 19:15 |
| Theuni | gotta go back scrubbing my flat. having dinner guests. :) | 19:16 |
| J1m | IN that case, I'd use a local replica, rather than a cache. | 19:16 |
| J1m | np | 19:16 |
| J1m | I'm gonna go get something to eat myself. | 19:16 |
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