IRC log of #zope3-dev for Sunday, 2008-11-30

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afd_with a new project created by zopeproject, zope doesn't start because of missing README.txt and savepoint.txt from the "transaction" egg18:28
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Theuniafd_: that sounds weird19:07
Theunican you post a traceback from that?19:07
Theuniah19:07
Theuniyou posted a bug19:08
afd_I did19:08
Theuniso thats an issue of zope.app.apidoc19:08
Theuniif you don't need the apidoc, you can disable it19:08
afd_I need it19:08
afd_I don't think that's not the issue...19:08
TheuniWatch the double negative. ;) Then apidoc maybe should start logging a warning instead of preventing to start up, though.19:09
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afd_there is a "conflict" between the transaction package and zope.app.apidoc, over the ownership of the text files from transaction19:09
afd_should they, or should they not be included in the egg? :)19:09
afd_I think it doesn't hurt to include them... that would require the least amount of changes in zope.app.apidoc.bookmodule19:09
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TheuniJ1m: ping19:24
J1mHi19:24
TheuniI'm writing a proposal to let the transaction package recognize data managers that don't support TPC and to act in a "reasonably" safe manner.19:25
J1m-119:25
TheuniMay I explain a bit more? :)19:26
J1msure, go ahead :)19:26
TheuniFact is: people do integrate those kind of data managers all the time, but they do so badly.19:26
TheuniI think there's a way to make those integrations more reliable.19:26
TheuniUnder the condition that we only allow a single "single phase" data manager, I believe that either letting it execute its commit last during the vote phase or first in the finish phase, we'd be fine.19:27
TheuniOriginally I tended toward last in vote phase, but revising the proposal, I found that first in finish phase might be better.19:28
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TheuniGiven your immediate -1 I also have the feeling there's a larger risk that I don't see.19:29
J1m"reasonable" is very brittle in this context.19:29
J1mAlso, the opportunity is very narrow.19:30
J1mPeople who want to imtegrate these dm's will want to integrate more than one and won't understnd why it's broken.19:30
J1mI don't want to encourage this sort of thing.19:30
TheuniI understand that.19:31
J1mcool. :)19:32
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TheuniCurrently we do encourage it because people write datamanagers that are single phase and don't do *anything* about it.19:32
TheuniGnarr. I might have missed something. My wireless betrayed me.19:32
J1mwireless will do that.19:33
TheuniSeems like I'm in the middle between to APs and they keep switching and Ubuntu kills the connection in between ...19:33
TheuniAnyway, what did you reply "cool" to?19:33
J1mIf people write broken implementations of an api, there's not much we can do about it. That doesn't mean the framework should try to accomidate them.19:34
J1mI replied cool to you inderstanding why I'm still -1.19:34
TheuniDid I say "Currently, ...." ?19:35
Theuni.oO(/me hates doing error recovery manually...)19:35
J1mI think it would be better to write better documentation of 2pc and  the downsides/tradeoffs of implementing 2pc incompletely.19:37
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Theuni1gnarr19:41
Theuni1Wireless keeps falling apart ...19:41
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Theuni1Well. My use case is the integration of databases that simply don't support tpc. So documenting tpc on our side wouldn't help that much.19:41
Theuni1Like older MySQL (<5) instances.19:41
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Theuni1So for me the opportunity isn't that narrow. We already saw quite some data destruction with the classic Zope 2 MySQL integration.19:42
Theuni1I wonder how strong "very brittle" really is.19:42
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Theuni1I would rather see a system that knows about that flaw and actively counters the issues.19:45
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Theuni1Gosh. It's 6:45 already? I've gotta run to get my dancing lessons.19:45
Theuni1humm19:46
Theuni1i'm talking to the wall ...19:46
Theuni1:/19:46
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