IRC log of #zope3-dev for Wednesday, 2009-03-04

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regebroHeh, so faassen got tired of debating and started dictating instead. :) Probably a wise move.21:37
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srichterregebro: definitely21:39
regebrosrichter: Personally I still thing a steering group is unnecessary, and that PyCon would have showed that.21:40
regebroI'm sure he and chrism would agree once they are in the same room. :)21:41
regebroBut too late now. :-/21:41
srichterregebro: it is not about him versus chrism21:42
srichterit is about coordinating the management of the core packages that so many of us rely on on a daily basis21:42
regebroYeah, but the disagreements only was two: chrism who didn't want a core package set (I still don't understand why), and a couple of people (including me) who didn't see the need for a steering group.21:43
regebroSo it seems the steering groups work currently is to coordinate the fact that chrism doesn't want to be involved the a Framework KGS. :)21:44
regebroA steering group for that seems a bit overkill.21:44
srichterok, I do not want to roll up the discussion again; I am glad we are going to have this group, which every OS community without a BDFL has21:44
regebroHasn't been much discussion about that at all IMO. Since the willingness to listen to arguments about this has been so low, there should not have been a proposal, it should have just been done. Pretending to listen to arguments is worse than just doing what seems necessary.21:47
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smregebro: I don't agree that arguments weren't listened to. It seemed all those with substance were seriously engaged with.21:51
smI definitely appreciate the discussion before the unilateral action :), it makes the latter stronger21:52
regebrosm: Answering" Yes we need the group, because we need it, which proves we need it" is not actually listening....21:53
regebroI do realize that if we had a serious disagreement about an issue, this group would have been needed in the absensce of a BDFL.21:54
mcdoncmostly i just disagree with the diagnosis of the problem... (a lack of consensus requires a need for more centralized planning)21:54
mcdoncbut i said my peave21:54
regebromcdonc: but there isn't even a lack of consensus. :)21:55
mcdoncwell yeah21:55
mcdoncthere's that too21:55
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regebroBut fine, that just means the group doesn't have anything to do, which isn't a problem.21:56
smthere's a lack of something. Well, the ZFSG is going to have a go at having a positive impact, more power to them21:56
regebrosm: Well, there has been lack of leadership. That clearly is not lacking anymore. :)21:56
smwe'll see21:58
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regebroBut, as I say, if there are loads of people behind you, you are likely not leading, but in the way. :-D21:58
smI think you like saying that :)21:59
regebroI do. I think it's Verrrry cleverrr.21:59
* sm grins21:59
smgot another for you.. if you point a finger at someone, you've got three pointing right back!22:00
smno deep meaning intended here, its just for enjoyment :)22:01
ktwilightyou guys should have it in a wiki and list things out to keep the picture clear, rather than have it spotty around the ML. that's how i'd do it to make some sort of a decision or get an idea on possible directions.22:02
srichterktwilight: we do that for proposals, etc. It still does not address the decision making process22:02
ktwilighti see it as a problem of information gathering, purpose and objectives, before making any decision. IMHO, it's easier to make a decision when the picture is clear. at the moment, it doesn't seem the case22:04
ktwilightthough i may be completely wrong22:04
regebrosrichter: But we might want to have a "ZEP" system.22:05
ktwilightbeing clear to a handful of people isn't gonna help, btw.22:05
regebrosm: I also like saying "I thought I could organize freedom. How Scandinavian of me." Also relevant in this case.22:06
mcdoncthe cynic in me believes a "steering group" can be accurately defined as "a mechanism that makes it possible for individuals to do nothing while simultaneously discouraging other individuals from doing something in an official manner"22:11
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