IRC log of #zope for Thursday, 2010-05-06

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pedahzurZope 2.x trying to reset a password.  ZOPE_HOME, according to the zopectl we use to start/stop is /opt/zope/custom_cms-dist/opt/Zope2. However, creating an 'access' file in that directory and trying to log in with that user pass does nothing (no error on the login form, just goes back to a blank login form).  Ideas?04:10
mcdoncpedahzur: try doing bin/zopectl adduser admin2 admin204:12
mcdoncthen you should be able to log in as admin2 and reset admin's password04:12
pedahzurmcdonc: I'll try that. This may point to part of our problem.  zopectl is at /opt/zope/custom_cms-dist/bin/zopectl but that zopectl file says ZOPE_HOME is/opt/zope/custom_cms-dist/opt/Zope204:13
mcdoncthat doesnt sound quite right04:14
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pedahzurmcdonc: the adduser call gives me: NotImplementedError: There are no plugins that can create users and assign roles to them.04:14
mcdonci'm out of my league04:15
pedahzurmcdonc: Well, thanks for trying. :)04:15
mcdoncwhat i think is happening is that the root user folder is a PAS user folder04:16
MatthewWilkespedahzur: Have you been trying to change the ACL users at the root of the site?04:16
mcdoncwhich isnt a bad thing04:16
mcdoncits just misconfigured, effectively locking you out04:16
pedahzurMatthewWilkes: No. This is a site that hasn't been touched for a long time, and we've lost the admin password. :)04:16
mcdonci smell plone04:17
MatthewWilkespedahzur: How much experience do you have with debugging Zope stuff? I'd drop into zopectl debug and inspect the root ACL to see what plugins it has04:17
MatthewWilkesmcdonc: Plone sets up PAS correctly; )04:18
mcdoncsuuuure it does04:18
mcdoncby replacing the root user folder for no apparent reason04:18
pedahzurMatthewWilkes: You've just lost me.  I have zero Zope experience.  This is an old legacy Zope/Plone site...I think it was set up by Zope corp a long time ago.04:18
mcdoncaccess file doesnt work eh04:20
MatthewWilkesI've never seen an access file work, personally04:20
mcdonclet's look at the code04:20
mcdonccrap, let's first get a zope checkout on our new computer04:21
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pedahzurMatthewWilkes: OK, I'm in zopectl debug...what do I do now? :)04:23
mcdoncpedahzur: try this04:24
mcdoncimport App.config04:25
mcdonccfg = App.config.getConfiguration()04:25
mcdoncprint cfg.instancehome04:25
mcdoncwhat prints?04:25
pedahzurmcdonc: /opt/zope/custom_cms-dist/var/zope04:26
mcdoncput an "access" file there04:26's not either of the two previous path values we've found. :)04:26
mcdoncits filepath bingo04:26
mcdoncyou'll need to restart zope for it to notice it04:27
pedahzurmcdonc: Hey, wadaya know!04:29
pedahzurI'm in.04:29
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pedahzurmcdonc, MatthewWilkes: Thank you so much!04:33
mcdoncpedahzur: are you related to hadar of zope corp?04:33
mcdonc(or are you he even? ;-) )04:34  Why do you ask?04:34
mcdoncnot a real common name.. hadar pedazhur is the main vc of zope corp04:34
mcdoncdarn sorry for the misspelling04:35
pedahzurAh, interesting.  Pedahzur is my IRC handle.  Joshua Kugler is my real name. :)04:36
mcdoncheh ok04:36
pedahzurGotta run for now...thanks again!04:38
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prinzdezibelWhat does a zcml like this imply <zodb><blobstorage>20:10
prinzdezibelblobdir mydir20:10
prinzdezibelpath a_path20:10
prinzdezibel</filestorage></blobstorage> ?20:10
prinzdezibelwhy is filestorage nested in blobstorage?20:11
prinzdezibeland what does this imply?20:11
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benjiprinzdezibel: the blobstorage is wrapping the filestorage, adding blob functionality to it20:16
benjifor modern versions of filestorage, I don't think that's needed any more20:16
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prinzdezibelwhen is the blob functionality used, benji ?20:17
benji(and that's not ZCML)20:17
benjito store blobs :)20:17
prinzdezibelregarding ZCML, of course you're right.20:17
benjisome apps/components store large data in blobs instead of in the underlying storage (like filestorage)20:17
benjicommon things to put in blobs are media and documents20:18
prinzdezibelbenji: so the application needs to request the blob storage explicitely?20:18
prinzdezibelOr does ZODB decide: This content is file storage and this is media (blob)20:18
benjithere are blob-specific operations the application can use20:18
benjithe app decides20:19
prinzdezibelbenji: Thank you!20:19
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sarwchannel# how to download the latest zope documentation source  from  ?20:22
benjisarw: maybe here
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sarwbenji    svn    ?   I don't have svn installed    what I have to install   can you suggest ?20:31
betabugwhy do you want the sources to the docs anyway?20:31
benjiif you just want to browse it, you can use your web browser and visit
sarwbenji, I want to create  pdf version of  2.12 documentation   I installed  sphinx and latex20:32
betabugunless you have something to *add*, you can find all you want at docs.zope.org20:32
betabuginstall svn too then :-)20:33
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sarwbut to do a check out  of source code   do I need  to install   svn  or  svn client ?20:34
sarwbenji, ^^^20:34
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betabugsvn client20:34
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sarwbetabug, thanks20:35
betabugnp :-)20:35
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j-w_hi hannosch, ccomb21:02
j-w_you there?21:02
j-w_shall we start?21:02
hannoschin a minute21:02
j-w_btw, I couldn't find info on who can create new mailinglists - is there a ml maintainer or something?21:04
hannoschhere now21:05
hannoschj-w_: I'd ask Jens Vagelpohl21:05
j-w_ok, thanks21:05
hannoschgenerally he knows this stuff21:05
j-w_hannosch, ccomb where do we start?21:06
hannoschappoint a secretary?21:06
hannoschsomeone to take some notes and write a mail in the end21:06
j-w_good point21:07
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hannoschI guess I'll volunteer for this time21:07
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hannoschmeeting time: maximum an hour?21:08
j-w_i'll make some notes too for myself, so we can compare21:08
j-w_yes, max21:09
hannoschok. ccomb you listening?21:09
j-w_i'd like to figure out what the three of us can do / want to do21:09
* ccomb listening21:09
j-w_for the ZTK that is21:09
hannoschok, so agenda items (what should we talk about)?21:09
ccombthe question is, what do we need to release21:10
ccombor what are we missing21:10
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ccombI've started creating a script to check versions21:10
ccombprobably z3c.checkversions or something21:10
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hannoschok. so we have "what the hell should we do". should we just start with that and go from there?21:11
j-w_we can also reiterate some of the thoughts we shared in private mails21:11
j-w_to record them21:11
ccombthe current buildbots are green, but none is checking the current released packages21:12
j-w_which was, uhm, let me see: "we see ourselves as representatives of communities that make use of the ZTK"21:12
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j-w_ccomb: the zopetoolkit tests, test the released versions, right?21:13
ccombthe development branches21:13
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ccombthat is, the next versions, not yet released21:13
hannoschI thought there tests for both?21:14
hannoschreleased and SVN21:14
ccombI had another buildbot with released versions, but it is stopped21:14
ccombI will reenable it21:14
sarwsvn co ZOPE-SOURCE/  giving message  svn: Repository moved permanently to '/zope2docs/trunk/'; please relocate21:14
ccombsarw: /repos/main/zope2docs, etc....21:14
j-w_if you run the zopetoolkit tests, you run tests in released packages21:14
j-w_and yuo can selectively choose what packages to checkout and test with21:15
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hannoschthere's a second config file, which will check out all the SVN branches (trunk's)21:15
hannoschthat's the mr.developer stuff ([sources])21:16
ccombyes, I'm using bin/buildout -c development.cfg21:16
j-w_ah, ok21:16
ccombbut we need both21:16
ccombwe really also need other platforms21:16
TresEquisanybody know Florian Schulze?21:16
TresEquisHis IRC nick?21:17
hannoschTresEquis: that's fschulze. he's working for Jarn ;)21:17
TresEquisAh, cool -- I'm hoping to bug him to merge my bzr-enabling branch for mr.developer21:17
hannoschok. I'm happy with the current state of testing for the ZTK. anything else we need there?21:17
j-w_well, if all ztk tests pass for released packages21:18
ccombwe need 64bit linux, and windows21:18
j-w_does that mean we can release a ztk?21:18
j-w_my collegue janjaap is working on a buildbot on windows21:18
hannoschj-w_: I have a lot more questions around, what should be in there, what is the actual technical outcome of a release, what "change policies" does a release have ... :)21:19
j-w_there were some issue with 64bit, not sure what they were21:19
j-w_hannosch: right21:19
hannoschso, for testing, we want more platforms. janjaap is working on that. who follows up and bugs him?21:19
j-w_he is being bugged already21:20
j-w_for example by me21:20
hannoschok. I'll just note you as official janjapp bugger :)21:20
ccombif someone can just provide slaves, I can add them to the adpy masters21:20
ccombafpy masters21:20
hannoschjanjaap is running a huge bunch of masters / slaves himself. he can just add those21:21
hannoschwhat matters to me are mails to the zope-tests list21:21
j-w_ccomb: I'll tell him anyway21:22
hannoschso they show up in the daily report21:22
j-w_hannosch: afaik his bb is sending mails now21:22
j-w_since yesterday or so21:22
hannoschyep. that's what I've seen21:22
j-w_at least he's working on it21:22
* ccomb is looking at securactive buiildbots21:22
j-w_so testing is being dealt with? with bugging from us?21:23
hannoschyep. +121:23
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j-w_it still leaves us with the difficult questions of course :-)21:23
ccombregarding the release policy, I would really like to implement the buildbot-based auto-release21:23
j-w_what's the outcome of a release and what's the change policy21:23
ccombat least for minor versions21:24
hannoschsure. what exactly does each of you want out of  release? like a versions.cfg file at a specifc url or what?21:24
j-w_the ztk is essentially that, right?21:24
j-w_a set of versions that other projects can use, so yes21:24
hannoschI'd like to have at least something like that is an index and a versions.cfg file for each release21:24
j-w_a URL where we can find the "core" versions and the "zopeapp" versions etc.21:25
hannoschbonus points for some textual description of the changes in each release21:25
j-w_why an index too?21:25
hannoschwe don't really need one. it's just easy to create21:25
hannoschand makes the non-buildout folks happy21:25
j-w_yes, we need some generated site of some sort per release, displaying the changes in the packages21:25
j-w_ah, ok21:25
hannoschok. so ccomb what would you like to have as a release outcome?21:26
ccombmaybe a ZTK release should be defined by x.y only21:26
ccombnot x.y.z21:26
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ccombso we can add minor bugfix versions each time there is a new release21:27
ccomband the ZTK is always uptodate21:27
ccombthe generated versions.cfg should contain all the latest (minor) versions21:27
j-w_what about: with a ztk.cfg in it and a the zopeapp.cfg (for as long as it exists) in it, and an index directory in there as well?21:27
ccomband the index can contain every previous versions21:27
hannoschj-w_: sounds good21:28
j-w_ccomb: you mean the "ztk release 1.1" from yesterday can be different from that of today?21:28
j-w_because minor versions have been updated?21:28
j-w_rather not21:28
j-w_once we fix a number, it should be fixed21:28
hannoschnah, I need something that is an exact specification21:29
j-w_i'd rather have x.y.z. release than21:29
hannoschyou can extend from SVN, which gives you an updated list21:29
ccombyeah, the ZTK itself can have a minor versions21:29
ccombwe start with 1.1.021:29
j-w_hannosch: right21:29
hannoschI'd like to say Zope 2.13.1 depends on ZTK 1.1.221:29
j-w_me too21:29
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ccombhannosch: that's what I mean21:30
j-w_ow, ok!21:30
hannoschok, applause for agreeing :)21:30
j-w_I misunderstood you then21:30
ccombnot ZTK 1.1.2, but probably ZTK 1.1.2321:30
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ccombsince everytime a new package is released, we have a new exact specification of the ZTK21:30
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j-w_hannosch: how do you feel about the auto-generated minor releases?21:31
hannoschhow often do you release bugfix releases for BB or Grok?21:31
TresEquisyou classically need a "fixed" version *plus* one which can float21:31
ccombwe can also provide a generic 1.1 url which point to the latest21:31
j-w_based on a green bb at a given time21:31
hannoschI think something like a new bugfix release each month is quite enough for Zope221:31
j-w_hannosch: quite irregularly at the moment21:31
hannoschright. it's not really regular here either21:32
j-w_hannosch: it would be quite enough for grok too21:32
ccombBB has no release yet21:32
j-w_so, we would not auto-generate it then?21:32
hannoschsure. we have a fixed rule of something like "every first Monday in a month" there's a new Plone 3.3.x release for example21:32
ccombI would like the z3c.checkversions script I'm creating to be able to generate the new versions.cfg21:32
ccomban give it to the buildbot21:32
j-w_could the zopetoolkit package play that role?21:33
j-w_of z3c.checkversions I mean?21:33
hannoschwell. if it is fully automated, we could have lots of x.y.Z releases. but that's not required for me21:33
ccombwhy not, but I would like the checkversions script to be reusable in any project21:33
j-w_ccomb: ok, sure, we can always include it in zopetoolkit21:33
hannoschthe release scripts for Zope2 are in some other package as well. we can concentrate all of them into something if we want to21:34
j-w_hannosch: not required for grok either - maybe some eyeballs cannot hurt in the begining either21:34
ccombhannosch: it would allow to update a project with latests ztk packages, without waiting for a new framework releasae21:34
hannoschccomb: sure. bit I'd see that as a nice-to-have, not a requirement21:35
ccombof course21:35
ccomba nice goal would be working so that we become unuseful a releasers :)21:35
hannoschright. I think there's some manual work when we switch major releases. like 1.0.x to 1.1.y21:36
ccombyes, there is some branch management to handle21:37
hannoschsomeone needs to decide what should go in there and when something moves from 1.1.0 alpha to a final21:37
j-w_how would this someone determine this?21:37
hannoschI think that is up to us to decide21:38
j-w_e.g. when there's a new major version of one of the packages?21:38
ccombwe just need to freeze the major versions21:38
ccombthen look at the color of the buildbot21:38
ccombfreezing the major versions means creating maintenance branches for every package, isn"t it ?21:39
hannoschright. but we have lots of feature updates happening all the time. when there's a new zope.event 3.6 (from 3.5) I don't want to have an automatic ZTK 1.1 to 1.2 upgrade21:39
j-w_hannosch: exaclty21:39
j-w_but when *do* we?21:39
ccombsure, no21:39
ccomba given ZTK versions should always have the same major versions21:40
hannoschhow often do you expect BB and Grok releases? every six month? every nine month?21:40
ccomba 1.1 is already planned for BB21:40
j-w_major grok releases? about 9 months I'd say - I would hope we could make that :)21:40
j-w_1.1 is Very Close Now21:41
hannoschright. I think we usually aim for six but end up with some more time21:41
ccombprobably every 6 to 12 months for BB21:41
j-w_1.2 should not follow too long after it - lot's of work has been done for it already, esp. getting rid of as much "old" packages as we can21:41
ccombbut BB is not much more from the ZTK, for now21:41
hannoschpersonally I'd be fine with releasing a new ZTK feature release whenever any of us wants one21:42
j-w_but a Grok release does not imply in itself that is is based on a new ZTK release, right?21:42
hannoschif we keep a good backwards compatibility story, there shouldn't be much of a problem21:42
j-w_hannosch: uhm, well, yes, I think I like that21:42
j-w_hannosch: it just sounds too simple ;)21:43
hannoschoh. the hard question is ZTK 2.021:43
hannoschbut we don't have to solve that right now ':)21:43
j-w_hannosch: how backwards compatible should a x.2 be compared to x.1 ?21:43
j-w_there's proably ideas about that written down somewhere21:43
hannoschI think we don't do deprecations and removal anymore (at least not recently)21:44
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hannoschso there's not much that can actually break21:44
ccombbackward compatibility breaking only happens in X.y.z21:44
TresEquishannosch: dropping support for Python 2.4, for instance21:45
ccombthat means, if we have a zope.component 4.0.0, it will be part of ZTK 2.0 or 3.021:45
j-w_you mean, for example, leaving backwards compatibilty imports and such21:45
j-w_ccomb:, hannosch, ok, agreed21:45
hannoschj-w_: indeed21:45
TresEquisj-w_: I would guess that a major bump might *drop* the BBB imports21:45
hannoschwhen do we allow packages to be added or removed from the set? in a x.Y ?21:46
hannoschI'd like to remove all stuff none of us needs anymore21:46
ccombbb uses most of them21:47
j-w_hannosch: which means we need to find out what of these packages are indeed not used anymore21:47
j-w_grok uses some of them still21:47
j-w_more so in 1.1, hopefully (way) less so in 1.221:47
ccombbut they will be slowly removed too21:47
hannoschright. but ? or ?21:47
hannoschI think there's some nobody ever used21:47
j-w_so, the ztk team can determine from time to time what* to remove?21:47
j-w_ok, and we back that decission up with our "own" communities21:48
hannoschwe have some guidelines on that. but basically I'd say whatever at least two of us use21:48
j-w_hannosch: zope2 isn't using any right?21:48
ccombremoving ok, but based on what?21:48
hannoschZope2 trunk isn't anymore indeed21:48
ccombdo we need some poll on package usage?21:48
ccombor some tool like debian package stats?21:49
hannoschthe three of us need to find out for their project21:49
j-w_so, we can remove packages when bb and grok are not using them anymore then?21:49
j-w_I need to think about that a little21:49
ccombit's more than grok or bb, but the real app people are creating21:49
hannoschbut there's also some zope.* packages currently in the under-review section, I'd like to get rid ot21:49
hannoschccomb: right. the "real app" people don't have any voice in this group21:50
j-w_well, the whole "under review" is problematic -who does the reviewing I mean21:50
hannoschI don't feel like speaking for them21:50
j-w_hannosch: well, how do we deal with developers building apps with grok, using a package and then we drop it from the ztk21:50
hannoschj-w_: I think we need to do an initial cleanup round over those and just decide21:51
ccombit most people are using certain packages, they should probably end up in the ztk if possible, isn't it?21:51
TresEquisI posted a list of packages being used by each f/w21:51
hannoschTresEquis: right. thx. we should have a look at that21:51
j-w_TresEquis: yes, I saw that - very useful!21:51
ccombwe have to define a policy for adding and a policy for removing21:51
hannoschwe have some rules at
hannoschI think those make sense21:52
hannoschthey cover the "we want to promote", "many people use it" cases21:52
* j-w_ will re-read them21:52
hannoschlike z3c.form for example21:52
ccombok, have yet to create an extra.cfg21:52
TresEquisj-w_: you tell people that such packages can be depended on separately21:52
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TresEquisbecause the wider community lacks resources to support it within the "core" set21:53
ccombextra.cfg would not be the core, and would not even need to have passing tests21:53
* hannosch is back in two min, sorry21:53
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TresEquisindividual projects are always going to have software which is outside any managed set, right?21:54
j-w_TresEquis: I tend to agree, but I also do not want to scare away people from using a newer version of grok - so maybe this can be solved by having documentation that tells what changed/got removed in a particular ztk release21:54
TresEquisj-w_: exactly21:54
j-w_maybe even with some notes on "why it got removed"21:54
TresEquisdocument very clearly what people need to do to add it back (e,g,. to their buildout.cfg or install_requires)21:55
j-w_because that info actually helps developers with grok, bb, etc. tremendously21:55
TresEquisyes indeed21:55
ccombwe can have a movingout.cfg, to progressively move packages out of the core21:55
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ccombyes :)21:55
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j-w_hannosch: ccomb we have a couple of minutes left - do you want to conclude for today or continue a bit more?21:56
hannoschsounds good. we are running out of time, should we agree on a next meeting?21:56
ccombwe could even rename zopeapp.cfg to deprecated.cfg21:56
j-w_ccomb: not yet please21:57
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ccombor deprecating.cfg21:57
j-w_but eventually maybe/probably21:57
j-w_hannosch: we should definitley agree on a next meeting21:57
j-w_shall we attempt at/arround the weekly #zope meeting?21:57
hannoschlet's do that. I'm away for the next week. back on the 18th21:58
j-w_ok, so the next meeting then will be, let's see...21:58
j-w_the 18th?21:58
hannoschTue, May 18th ?21:58
hannoschbefore or after the #zope meeting21:58
j-w_I'd prefer before21:58
hannoschso 16:00 to 17:00 ?21:59
hannoschccomb: ?21:59
j-w_fine with me21:59
* ccomb checking21:59
hannoschcool. I'll post some notes and we continue some discussion on the mailing list21:59
j-w_hannosch: I took notes too21:59
j-w_shall I send them too you21:59
hannoschj-w_: please do22:00
j-w_thank you guys!22:00
hannoschthank you! :)22:00
ccombsee you!22:00
j-w_hannosch: there's no ztk list yet22:00
ccombnot sure we need one22:00
j-w_shall we continue on zope-dev ml for a while?22:00
* hannosch feels good about this. but it all sounds to easy ;)22:00
j-w_me neither actually22:00
j-w_hannosch: it does :-)22:00
hannoschzope-dev has a tendency to be noisy. I don't want to force anyone to keep up with all of that22:01
hannoschI read it all, so I'm fine with zope-dev22:01
j-w_ok, I'll create a list anyway then22:01
ccombcan't we recycle the old zope3-dev ? :)22:01
j-w_I read it too... so....22:01
hannoschnah, ccomb you fine with zope-dev?22:02
ccombI'm ok with zope-dev now22:02
hannoschok. so zope-dev it is22:02
j-w_need to go now, I'll send the notes this evening though22:02
j-w_bye and thanks again22:02
* ccomb needs some food22:03
hannoschoh, food! :)22:03
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hannoschdamn. my IRC client didn't log :(22:06
betabughannosch: I wasn't following the conversation, but if you need logs, tell me22:07
hannoschbetabug: if you could sent me one from the last hour22:07
hannoschthat would save me :)22:07
betabug /msg me your mail address :-)22:07
hannoschgot it?22:08
hannoschaha, janjaap writes: "The cleaning lady keeps on pulling the ethernet cables from my machine" :))22:09
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hannoschbetabug: Danke!22:11
betabugnp :-)22:11
TresEquishannosch: you can also get it from
hannoschTresEquis: right. I remembered that about a minute ago :)22:13
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TresEquisAnybody mind if we enable a CIA bot for changes here?22:36
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shen-longTresEquis, ! :)22:47
digilordIs there a method to get the last item added to a container?22:48
TresEquisdigilord: depends on the container22:49
koshnot that I can think of22:49
koshwhy would you need to?22:49
TresEquiscontainer.objectValues()[-1] will work for stock folders22:49
digilordTresEquis, Ok trying that22:49
TresEquisBTrees keep their items in sorted order by key22:49
shen-longrather then get the 'last item' we're trying to get the item that triggered a ContainerModified event22:50
TresEquisand OrderedFolders allow the user to re-order the folder, which will make [-1] be whatever the user made the last one in the list22:50
shen-longbut the event gives us nothing beyond the object which is the container22:50
TresEquisyou should be listing for an ObjectAdded event then ;)22:50
shen-longyes, except, here's the rub22:51
shen-longwe don't want to have to edit this egg everytime we add a new object to watch for22:51
shen-longso we're grabbing the action method of objects in our schema to 'do crap'22:51
shen-longand the subscriber is in a universal egg22:51
shen-longand if we look for the objectadded, then we need to know what object is added ...22:52
shen-longI guess we could look for a higher level interface22:52
* digilord is working with shen-long 22:53
TresEquisin your added subscriber, you can examine the object's aq_parent22:54
TresEquisand just ignore it if the containe is not one you care about22:54
shen-longok, so aq_parent, we're in zope3 right now22:54
shen-longdo we have aq in zope3 ?22:55
shen-longztk, bluebream, yellowfish, whatever ;p22:55
TresEquisuse __parent__22:58
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shen-longif I have ISomeInterface23:00
shen-longand then class(SomeInterface) implements(ISomeInterface)23:01
shen-longblah, think we got it23:02
shen-longby just using it's inherited  class (duh....)23:02
shen-longand.. it works ;p23:04
shen-longTresEquis, thank you thank you ! :)23:04
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TresEquisshen-long: you're welcome23:16
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CIA-46tseaver * r112105 zopetoolkit/ztk.cfg: Use new bugfix release of zope.principalannotation.23:54
CIA-46tseaver * r112106 zopetoolkit/buildout.cfg: Fussy.23:54
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