IRC log of #zope for Tuesday, 2010-11-23

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CIA-82fdrake * r118523 zc.zope3recipes/ (3 files in 2 dirs):00:44
CIA-82- add support for contrlling (including suppressing) logrotate configuration00:44
CIA-82- prepare for release00:44
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CIA-82fdrake * r118523 zc.zope3recipes/ (3 files in 2 dirs):00:51
CIA-82- add support for contrlling (including suppressing) logrotate configuration00:51
CIA-82- prepare for release00:51
CIA-82fdrake * r118524 /zc.zope3recipes/tags/ (0.12.0 0.12.0/ tag release 0.12.000:52
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CIA-82fdrake * r118523 zc.zope3recipes/ (3 files in 2 dirs):01:18
CIA-82- add support for contrlling (including suppressing) logrotate configuration01:18
CIA-82- prepare for release01:18
CIA-82fdrake * r118524 /zc.zope3recipes/tags/ (0.12.0 0.12.0/ tag release 0.12.001:18
CIA-82fdrake * r118525 zc.zope3recipes/ update for development01:18
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planetzopebotAlan Hoey Named Release Manager for Plone 3.x Series (Plone News)
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CIA-82janwijbrand janjaapdriessen-resource-publisher * r118526 hurry.resource/src/hurry/resource/ (README.txt to make the signature() method useful by itself, it should include the publisher_signature as well.12:33
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blackrockNeed help understanding the extensible nature of ZCA :)13:16
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heverZope can't itself listen on HTTP(80) and HTTPS (443) is that correct?13:27
heverhmm.. I find no good documentation about running Zope over https without some proxy approach.13:28
betabugZope can serve quite well on 80 - but it's recommended to put a web server in front13:28
betabugas for https, yes, the hacks that existed were very ugly13:29
betabughever: Zope is an application server, it's meant to be run "behind" a web server13:29
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betabugit's really easy to do that, it's safe too13:31 IIRC13:31
heverWe'll I'm running it behind a squid proxy for normal users. But I'm not going to cache the dynamically generated content for authenticated users.13:33
heverI'm using CacheFu (really good) and ran the site a time with just the Vary Header set to Cookie. This worked great but after we set up Google Analytics, every user has it's own cookie and caching doesn't work usefully.13:35
betabugwell, so you're using plone13:35
betabugthere are tons of guides about setting that stuff up for plone13:36
betabugand you might want to ask in #plone for todays wisdom13:36
blackrockAre there any good example describing the extensibility of ZCA?13:39
bigkevmcdwhat does that mean?13:42
betabughey big guy13:43
bigkevmcdhey betabug, how's things in .gr?13:43
betabugwarm :-)13:43
betabugI think only Ireland is hotter right now ;-)13:43
CIA-82janwijbrand janjaapdriessen-wsgi * r118527 hurry.zoperesource/ (5 files in 3 dirs): pass on the library object from directory resource to (directory) resource in order to effectively compute a hurry.resource URL13:51
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CIA-82janwijbrand janjaapdriessen-wsgi * r118528 hurry.zoperesource/src/hurry/zoperesource/README.txt: fix test for subdirectories14:07
CIA-82janwijbrand janjaapdriessen-wsgi * r118529 hurry.zoperesource/src/hurry/zoperesource/ ( the directory_factory can be a method in this case14:07
teixbetabug: next is Portugal :)14:07
betabugjupp, quite likely14:08
teixI was smiling but i hope not :P14:08
betabugwell, the situation is no fun, no matter what the next step will be14:10
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CIA-82regebro regebro-python3 * r118530 zc.buildout/ (3 files in 2 dirs): More tests passing. Now we are stuck because of bugs in Distutils
regebroI mean Distribute.14:52
betabugnot keep it all for yourself?14:52
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CIA-82yuppie * r118531 CMF/ (buildout-zope212.cfg buildout.cfg buildout-zope213.cfg): - updated Zope2 and ZTK versions15:18
CIA-82yuppie 2.2 * r118532 CMF/buildout-zope213.cfg: - updated Zope2 version15:18
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CIA-82regebro regebro-python3 * r118533 zc.buildout/bootstrap/ Working around the Distribute 0.6.14 bugs.16:18
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Charlie_XGood afternoon.17:02
Charlie_XAnyone joining the weekly zope-dev meeting?17:02
trollfotI'm looking for it, just to see what's being said :)17:03
Charlie_XWell, we don't have a specific agenda for this week so whatever you're interested in.17:03
Charlie_XWe're having another bug day a week from today.17:03
trollfotthat I can join. I'm interested in "getting things done"17:04
CIA-82faassen janjaapdriessen-resource-publisher * r118534 hurry.resource/CREDITS.txt: Add a credits file.17:04
CIA-82janjaapdriessen janjaapdriessen-resource-publisher * r118535 hurry.resource/src/hurry/resource/ ( Drop zope.interface.17:04
Charlie_Xtrollfot: always welcome. We've got a list of things to do since the summit that sort of need chasing up.17:04
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Charlie_XI was also interested in the issues raised recently on the ML by Brian Sutherland: can we squeeze more out of the core of Zope, aka "the bicycle toolkit"?17:06
agroszersummit goals seem to gone under the radar17:07
Charlie_Xagroszer: real life is good at getting stuff under the radar.17:07
agroszerwe'll discuss that at the next summit ;-)17:11
Charlie_Xagroszer: what are you working on at the moment?17:12
agroszerwell, if you mean goals, I did not sign up (cause I've known I won't really have time), but17:13
agroszerI'm going to add a LOT of packages to winbot soon17:13
agroszerbecause people not having windows tend to break stuff17:13
agroszerwhat makes other people angry17:14
Charlie_XWindows seems to be the source of a lot of pain at the moment. I have two separate Plone 4 installs on windows that are broken. Differently.17:15
agroszerthat's sort of real-life-ish17:15
Charlie_XGood to know you're looking into it.17:15
agroszermy pain is that I can't kick my customer cause of windows ;-)17:15
Charlie_XWhat do you think of the "omelette" dependency in z3c.form?17:15
agroszerat the times of the minimal frameworks?17:16
agroszerget rid of that17:16
agroszerwe were working on getting rid of dependency hell17:17
agroszerand now it's getting back17:17
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agroszeranyway, the buildbot should keep the packages failure free17:20
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Charlie_Xagroszer: I was surprised to see a windows' specific item in the buildout configuration. I assume omelette runs without problems on other systems?17:26
Charlie_XSorry about that. It seems I dropped off the server and wasn't allowed back on.17:27
agroszerI guess17:27
agroszerseems like freenode had some problem17:27
Charlie_XHappened to you as well?17:27
agroszerI just saw people quitting cause of ping timeouts17:28
Charlie_XLooks like we've lost the log for this channel.17:29
Charlie_XOr is it still there but just not in the announce?17:30
agroszerpovbot is here17:30
povbotagroszer: Error: "is" is not a valid command.17:30
agroszerpovbot help17:30
povbotagroszer: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.17:30
Charlie_Xpovbot address17:30
povbotCharlie_X: Error: "address" is not a valid command.17:30
* Charlie_X glares at povbot17:30
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betabugfunny bot17:31
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agroszerpovbot, remember that17:32
povbotagroszer: Error: "remember" is not a valid command.17:32
agroszerthought so17:32
betabugpovbot help commands17:32
povbotbetabug: Error: There is no command "commands".17:32
Charlie_XThanks agroszer17:32
Charlie_XYes, I agree with you that dependencies should not be creeping up.17:32
Charlie_XOkay time up for today.17:34
betabugpovbot url last17:35
povbotbetabug: Error: "url" is not a valid command.17:35
betabughmmm, the bot doesn't agree with his manual?17:35
agroszermgedmin, what did you do with p_vbot17:42
mgedminpovbot is a supybot with almost no plugins17:47
povbotmgedmin: Error: "is" is not a valid command.17:47
mgedminit is stupid17:47
betabugand chatty :-)17:48
mgedminthen again supybot is written in python17:48
mgedminso in theory things can be fixed17:48
betabugat least you should enable some Eliza plugin :-)17:48
mgedminI went through the list of supybot plugins a few times, looking for useful ones17:48
mgedminI found none17:48
betabugwhat's the use of that bot anyway?17:48
mgedminbut then later I noticed people using supybot for great effect in some channels17:48
betabugwhat do you need it for?17:49
mgedminso probably there are good plugins, I just don't know which ones or how to use them17:49
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mgedminpovbot has one and only one responsibility: to keep channel logs17:49
povbotmgedmin: Error: "has" is not a valid command.17:49
mgedminannoying users who mention its name is just a side effect17:49
agroszermgedmin, nm, I was just wondering why the bot is like this17:49
regebropovbot help me17:50
povbotregebro: Error: There is no command "me".17:50
betabugpovbot stats17:50
povbotbetabug: I have 2 registered users with 1 registered hostmasks; 1 owner and 0 admins.17:50
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alexdbto all zope developers, I'd like to warn you that I've just cursed you to the fifth generation18:20
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alexdbit's sad for the innocents kids, I know :)18:26
benjiI've had worse.18:27
koshI already have a life sucking god of death at my command, I am deal with your curse18:29
koshthe issue is can you deal with the repurcussions of your curse18:29
alexdbI've got a jellyfish karma, I can handle18:30
* trollfot thinks this is getting nowhere18:30
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alexdbI just feel better18:32
koshthat is fine with me18:32
koshI like zope a lot, if you don't that is fine but there is no need to troll18:33
koshbesides trolling is pretty darn boring18:33
koshbetabug: so how are things with your code going?18:33
Charlie_Xkosh I think he's just being sarcastic18:34
trollfotkosh: leave trolls alone, you bully18:34
trollfotTrolls need love too. And food.18:34
trollfotThis is just insulting.18:34
alexdbI'm not trolling, I didn't said the D. word18:34
Charlie_Xalexdb: as far as I know there are multiple D. words18:35
koshwell I am not planning on having another generation anyways18:35
koshI plan to get rid of my body and replace it with a robot18:35
Charlie_XBut, hey, we're Zope developers and proud of our scars.18:35
CIA-82faassen janjaapdriessen-resource-publisher * r118536 hurry.resource/src/hurry/resource/ ( README.txt URL generation in a saner place now.18:36
CIA-82janwijbrand janjaapdriessen-resource-publisher * r118537 hurry.resource/src/hurry/resource/ ( README.txt split resource publisher from the delegator functionality "middleware"18:36
CIA-82janwijbrand janjaapdriessen-resource-publisher * r118538 hurry.resource/src/hurry/resource/ ( README.txt anticipate on passing on configuration to the needed inclusions object in the inject middleware18:36
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Charlie_Xalexdb: my curse today is on allergies and anti-histamines.18:44
koshCharlie_X: allergies are pretty horrible18:46
koshCharlie_X: that is why I live where I do, as long as my parents live where they are visiting every few years is about the best they can expect18:46
Charlie_Xkosh that sounds pretty enigmatic. What particular allergies do you suffer from?18:47
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Charlie_XI'm getting desensitised to tree pollen and the subcutaneous jabs itch like hell. So I have to take anti-histamine knockout pills.18:48
koshpretty much breathing and sinus allergies from some kind of thing that exists in the pacific northwest18:48
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koshthe medicine strong enough to deal with that has side effects18:48
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Charlie_XSounds nasty. I picked up my tree allergies a few years ago. Until then I'd got by with mild hayfever.18:49
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benjisounds like a parasitic infrection is in order (
Charlie_Xbenji the guy is a charlatan, but, yes, there is work being done in that direction. Although my understanding thus far has been that it is more important for children to stop them developing autoimmune problems.18:57
Charlie_XAllergies are a bit more complex.18:58
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CIA-82janwijbrand janjaapdriessen-resource-publisher * r118539 hurry.resource/src/hurry/resource/ take publisher_signature from local config19:10
CIA-82faassen janjaapdriessen-resource-publisher * r118540 hurry.resource/src/hurry/resource/ ( README.txt
CIA-82Configuration was drastically changed. Many conveniences were taken19:10
CIA-82away in favor of just passing the information to NeededInclusions.19:10
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koshCharlie_X: apparently the allergy is fairly common in the pacific northwest and I get it is not a true allergy20:02
koshCharlie_X: supposed to be some kind of mite that grows in pollen, dust etc in damp climates20:03
koshCharlie_X: some people react more strongly to that mite then others20:03
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betabughey kosh21:04
betabugmy code's fine, except for that one stupid bug21:04
betabugwhere I have kind of a "circular reference" in 2 catalog indexes21:04
betabugwhich leads to random failures when reindexing an object21:05
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koshbetabug: ah that does not sound fun to fix21:14
koshbetabug: I have an issue where sometimes a catalog gets out of sync with the objects, but I have never managed to track it down, ever test I run says it should always update21:15
betabugbasically every approach I tried so far is ugly (and mostly uncertain)21:15
betabugwell, here it's quite simple:21:15
betabug2 kinds of objects: jobs and invoices21:15
betabugeach job can have multiple invoices, each invoice can be for multiple jobs21:16
betabugso there is one index for "most relevant invoice date"21:16
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betabugand one for "which paper goes with which job"21:16
betabugwhen you reindex a job, it's a matter of luck which index gets deleted an recalculated first21:17
betabugif it's the "which paper goes with which job", I win21:17
betabugif the "most relevant date" is first (while the job/paper is still empty), I lose21:18
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CIA-82hannosch * r118541 /zopetoolkit/doc/source/releaseteam/meeting-20101109.rst: Whitespace and spelling correction21:18
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koshI wonder what a good way to solve it would be21:18
betabugme too :-)21:19
betabugI looked at some kind of "caching" of one of the indexes, but it suxx21:20
koshI was thinking of looking at the catalog sources to see if there is a way to specify an index to update21:20
koshand then run two queries update the first then update the next21:20
betabugbest solution I have come up so far is to always reindex the "date" index after reindexing the job index, but really ugly if you forget it somewhere21:20
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betabugyes, you can reindex a single index21:21
koshno I mean update the entry for a single object in a singel index21:21
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koshso when the object is changed instead of calling a general reindex have it call the exact indexes you want to update in the order you want21:21
betabugyes, you can do that21:22
betabugbut you have to be sure to never forget to do it somewhere in the code21:22
koshthat seems like that would solve the problem21:22
koshoh I don't put that stuff in multiple places21:22
koshI would have a single method that you called for reindexing the object and put the code in there21:22
betabughmmm, right21:23
betabuga little bit better like that21:23
betabugand then I can check that there is no "job.reindex_object" in the code21:25
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koshI mean you already call some kind of reindex object method when ou change anyways to notify a catalog21:25
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koshso just put a more intelligent reindexing in there instead of the standard stuff21:25
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betabugI even have 2 or 3 spots where I only reindex only a single index on an object already21:26
betabugI try to do that more often, as it reduces db growth21:27
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koshI seem to have really slow db growth already but probably a lot of issues that go into that21:28
koshone major thing is any data structure that gets mutated can't be a list, dictionary, tuple etc21:29
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hannoschj-w, ccomb: evening!21:30
j-whi hannosch, ccomb21:30
hannoschwhooo, we all made it :)21:31
ccombI might not have a good connection21:31
betabugkosh: yeah, I *never* do that21:32
ccombI'm in a car with my phone21:32
betabugccomb: I hope you're not driving!21:32
hannoschccomb: uh. should we postpone by some time then?21:32
koshbetabug: that makes a major difference to db growth rate21:32
ccombI'm not :)21:32
j-wbesides the usual typos, anything to remark on the minutes?21:33
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hannoschj-w: nope. looked good, +121:33
ccombI'm more available in a few hours when at home21:33
j-wccomb: in a few hours I'll be asleep :)21:34
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* hannosch too21:34
j-wa very tiny few hours actaully ;)21:34
ccombok so no pb for now, Im just writing sslowly21:35
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j-wuhm, hannosch you did the 1.0.1 release, cool21:36
hannoschone task done21:36
j-wi moved the zope.,app. packages to the deprecated-section21:36
j-won the ztk trunk21:36
j-wccomb: were you able to update the versions on the ztk trunk?21:37
ccombI'll do that tonight21:37
j-won the distribute versus setuptools front21:38
j-wthere were some comments on the zope list about our decision to go for distribute21:38
hannoschah, bikeshed topic :)21:38
j-wwell, yes and no21:38
j-wone remark was not to rely on distribute-specifics21:39
j-win order to be able to interchange one an another21:39
j-wi can see that21:39
hannoschj-w: that's fine. and has been the policy so far21:39
hannoschexcept where distribute offers you 2to3 support in setup.py21:39
j-waha, right 3-support...21:40
hannoschI imagine Lennart is actually relying on that for some packages21:40
j-wsaw the mail exchange with lennart21:40
hannoschI can try to test if the updated packages actually rely on distribute21:41
j-wok... can you explain what you'd be looking for?21:41
hannoschrun them with a normal setuptools and see if that can install them21:41
j-waha, ok, i see21:41
hannoschmaybe it ignores unknown keywords in the setup function21:42
hannoschbut maybe not21:42
hannoschbetter to check21:42
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hannoschok. So I'll look into this and we can discuss distribute next time?21:43
hannoschone kinda task is the Python 3 roadmap itself21:44
hannoschyou've seen Lennarts mail. I'll ask him to sent that to zope-dev, so more people know about it21:44
j-wworking on the porting? or making the roadmap clear?21:44
j-whas this been is sole work so far?21:45
hannoschothers helped21:45
j-wanother thing: i noticed a few packages that declare a minimum version of a dep that is not yet available21:45
hannoschlike Martin von Löwis with distribute and ZODB21:45
j-won their trunk21:45
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hannoschhhm. should we get a "needs release" script?21:46
j-wis that something that concerns us, as in the ztk-team?21:46
j-whmm, yeah, something like that21:46
j-wit makes testing in buildbot difficult I guess21:47
j-wthe current situation I mean21:47
* j-w tries to remember what package he noticed21:47
hannoschyep. I'd say you shouldn't require an unreleased version in general21:47
j-wsometimes you need to, when related work is done21:48
j-wat THA we use mr.developer for that21:48
hannoschsure. but you can do that in one step, or use branches21:48
j-whmm, right21:48
hannoschwe do have mr.developer and auto-checkout in the ztk as well21:48
j-wbut I do not think people would want to work with mr.developer in the individual packages21:49
j-wso, the branches-suggestion would be better `i think21:49
j-wunless we do not want to buildbot-test the trunks21:49
hannoschyep. the trunk of a package should always be in a releasable state21:49
j-wi'll make a list of ztk packages that have this issue right now21:50
hannoschok. cool21:50
j-w(ccomb you reading all of this? :)  )21:50
hannoschlet's see how many we have. then we can decide if we need a policy or a script for it21:50
ccombj-w yes I do21:51
j-wanything else?21:51
hannoschnot from me21:52
j-wnot from me either21:52
ccombshould we consider distutils2 soon ?21:52
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* j-w is not very much up to date with the setuptools, distribute, disutils2 situation21:52
j-wis there something to read about all of this?21:52
hannoschccomb: I'd like to see some blog posts or experiences posted by people using it first21:52
j-wor is it all on the disutils-sig?21:52
ccombthere is a nice static config file (setup.cfg)21:53
hannoschthe ZTK isn't really a good place to experiment with bleeding edge stuff :)21:53
ccombtarek's blog contains posts about it21:53
j-wok, i'll try to read a bit more about it21:53
j-wbut I tend to agree with hannosch21:54
j-wthe zc.buildout-1.5.x stuff didn't land too wel in grok just yet21:54
j-was an example21:54
j-wnext meeting?21:55
j-w07/12 ?21:55
hannoschworks for me21:55
hannosch20:30 again?21:55
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ccombok for me too21:56
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hannoschcool. meeting adjourned :)21:57
hannoschj-w: you are allowed to sleep now ;)21:57
* j-w snores21:58
j-wbut, thanks guys, have a nice evening21:58
hannoschccomb: safe trip home :)21:58
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ccombhannosch thanks, the road is clear22:01
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CIA-82hannosch * r118542 zopetoolkit/ (zopeapp.cfg zopeapp-versions.cfg): Expose the deprecation status of packages in the versions file in addition to the spec - the versions file is the one used and seen by most people22:05
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