IRC log of #zope for Sunday, 2011-09-04

koshoverall I would not advise you to start down this path00:00
koshmost of the core zope devs are hostile towards actually doing stuff directly with zope 2 anymore00:00
koshthey have been removing things that plone does not directly need00:00
koshnew people getting into this is going to be very difficult and likely to get more difficult over time00:01
koshI know it seriously sucks00:01
koshif you want to keep using zope then you would need to use plone because they are going to kill off everything else00:01
koshwhat really bites is that zope is the only app server out there I know of that has a good security track record00:01
rokka_i don't understand a thing from developing with plone..00:01
koshI plan to be out of programming in 3-4 years so I just have to keep my stuff working for that long00:02
koshbut starting new with this stuff is not a good idea00:02
koshif I was going to build a new system from scratch I would probably use pyramid00:03
rokka_so what do you recommend?00:03
koshhowever I don't know of any system that will be around long term00:03
koshlong term maintainable systems are just not cool anymore00:03
koshit is more cool to burn down and start over and over and over00:03
mcdoncbeen doing pyramid for 3 yrs now, pretty committed00:04
koshI don't really like the modern direction of software development00:04
koshmcdonc: maybe pyramid will be different but you do have to admit that most systems go for a little while and then people seem to do their best to crater them since they are no longer the cool thing00:04
koshmcdonc: just like core 2 zope features get removed that have had to be modified in 5 years because they still work without any issues just to make the codebase smaller and break applications00:05
koshs/have had/have not had00:05
mcdoncthats just a factoring thing isnt it00:05
mcdonci mean.. add a dependency and its back right?00:06
koshwhen I looked in the docs it did not have it it exactly how to add a dependency back for what was removed00:06
koshjust a vague thing about adding a dependency but not where or how00:06
mcdoncwell, that's zope.00:06
koshno it has gotten far far harder00:06
mcdonci mean.. that kind of shit is what is killing zope, if anything.00:07
koshnobody even packages it anymore, we used to have packages in deb/ubuntu etc00:07
koshbut now with the way it is installed that is a royal bitch00:07
koshsome debian developers are trying to figure out a way to package it again and that is a pain in the neck00:07
mcdoncwell you might yearn for the days of everything ships with everything else, but i sure dont00:08
mcdoncthat sucked hard00:08
koshdarned if I know why zope devs seem to think that the current system is such a great idea when it is incompatible with any other way of installing software00:08
koshat least when it was just Zope2-x.y.z.tar.gz that was easier to deal with00:08
mcdoncisnt it just "easy_install zope"?00:08
koshlast I looked easy_install is kind of a pain to deal with long term00:09
koshadding,removing,updating etc00:09
* mcdonc rolls eyes00:09
koshapt-get is much easier to deal with00:10
mcdonci dunno man, this luddism was understandable in 2006... but time moves on00:11
koshwhy is it luddhism to want a system that integrates with existing intallation systems?00:12
rokka_so why are plone people modifying zope2 to be incompatible with previous versions and not forking their own zope-like engine00:12
mcdoncthat's an independent thing00:12
koshtime has moved on, I find that software is getting worse and I am getting out00:12
mcdoncif nobody from debian wants to package the thing, and you wont, then...00:12
koshpeople from debian do want to package it, they have been working on it00:12
koshthe current way zope is done makes that a bitch00:12
mcdonchow is it any different than any other python package?00:13
koshit is easier to package all of kde or gnome then zope00:13
mcdoncthey ship lots of those alreaedy00:13
koshyeah it is not the same as other python packages, it used to be the same though00:13
mcdoncrokka_: they dont, kosh is being a little dramatic i think00:13
koshthe whole buildout thing is not like other python packages00:13
mcdonckosh: how is it not the same?  it has a, console scripts...00:13
mcdoncif you do "python install" inside a zope checkout, it works like any other python package00:14
koshI wil have to try that again00:14
koshwhen I tried that with one of the 2.13 versions it did not work for me at all00:14
koshbut darned if I remember the exact reason now00:14
koshI have done that with 2.11 and below though without any problems00:15
rokka_maybe i must hack something like plone + zope2 ( for templatesa nd stuff ) and a different zodb file for my app dat[A[A[A[A[A00:18
rokka_thanks for info00:31
mcdonci certainly have my share of gripes with zope, but it doesn't help at all to create imaginary ones00:33
koshcool it worked00:34
mcdoncfor better or worse, it's no better or worse than any other python package in 201100:36
mcdoncit has a lot of dependencies, that's probably why debian folks are slow packaging it00:37
mcdoncbut that's no different than any other big system really00:37
rokka_so it is possible to do what i originally asked?00:38
rokka_or is defining a new object really difficult thing?00:39
koshI found some documentation that used to work but zope has changed since then and the docs have not been updated00:39
koshit is not hard, just no real docs on it anymore that I know of00:39
rokka_i simple want to make a shopping basket and add rows to it.. and maybe then also save and manipulate orders..00:40
mcdoncrokka_: sure.. i mean.. its possible.. that's what zope itself does of course.. no good docs on it tho00:40
mcdoncwhere do you start really?  i mean.. if this wasnt an irc convo and we were sitting in the same room we could probably help, but as it is it's kind of hopeless00:42
mcdonckosh: its the same docs as any other python package00:42
kosh  I don't see how that is the same as any other python package00:43
koshand that does not even cover security declarations or initiliazing the product00:43
mcdoncthat's *developing in zope*00:44
mcdoncnothing to do with installing zope00:44
mcdonchow do they have anything at all to do with each other?00:44
koshthat is what he was asking about00:44
koshdeveloping a content object for zope00:45
mcdoncok, but you responded to me saying "I dont see how that's the same as any other python package", and i never said it was00:45
mcdoncwhole different thing00:45
koshI think various threads of the conversation got mixed up00:46
mcdoncmaybe i missed something.. i thought you were talking about docs about how to install zope00:46
koshdoesn't really matter much00:47
mcdoncrokka_: in any case, what you want to do is possible, but the docs are awful.. as a result i'd suggest starting with some simpler system if you don't need "the whole plone"00:48
rokka_kosh: ok.. thanks .. i thought i had to import something like Persistent00:48
mcdoncif you do need the whole plone, well, good luck00:48
rokka_hmm.. but plone has nice gui to add users and do pages that don't need custom logic..00:48
mcdoncyes, at a nontrivial cost00:49
rokka_and login form00:49
mcdonclearning how to make a plone product is likely harder than coding that stuff yourself.00:49
koshSimpleItem inherits from Persistent00:49
rokka_stuff that i need for my project:     login+users, templates for ui, scripts and somekind of database00:50
mcdoncyeah, plone is so hardcore overkill for that set of requirements00:50
rokka_so do you recommend pyramid or what?00:51
rokka_i would not like to use apache+php+mysql for this too:(00:52
rokka_there must be something better..00:52
mcdonci hesitate to suggest it because i haven't really used it.. but there's a project named "apex" here:
mcdoncthat advertises itself as a library for doing various kinds of authentication in pyramid00:53
mcdoncmy recommendation for pyramid has to be tempered with the fact that i am its primary developer, fwiw.00:54
mcdoncbut.. yeah. pyramid.00:54
mcdoncapex may even be overkill00:55
mcdoncthe pyramid tutorials have simpler authentication/authorization in them00:55
mcdoncanyway, offtopic for zope.. not here to poach, just trying to help00:56
mcdoncthere's a #pyramid channel if you investigate and want more info00:57
koshfeel free to poach00:58
koshbetabug and I are basically the only ones left here00:58
mcdoncjust easier than trying to explain how to make a zope product really00:59
rokka_mcdonc: okay.. does pyramid have template system ?00:59
mcdoncyes, several of them00:59
koshtrying to tell people how to start writing zope products is not easy00:59
mcdoncrokka_: those docs are up to date as of yesterday.. so i'd suggest running through them, and maybe coding along to one of the tutorials01:00
rokka_mcdonc: ok :)01:01
mcdoncand /join #pyramid if you need help, it's offtopic here01:03
mcdoncoh you did01:03
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planetzopebotBook Review: Play Framework Cookbook (Martin Aspeli)
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xanalogicaIn updating some old code, I just hit a problem where the ZCML "browser:addform" directive is absent from Zope2.13.9.  It was there under Zope.2.12.10.  What is the recommended replacement?  It doesn't seem to have been moved elsewhere that I can find.12:15
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