| kosh | overall I would not advise you to start down this path | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| rokka_ | :l | 00:00 |
| kosh | most of the core zope devs are hostile towards actually doing stuff directly with zope 2 anymore | 00:00 |
| kosh | they have been removing things that plone does not directly need | 00:00 |
| rokka_ | argh..:l | 00:00 |
| kosh | new people getting into this is going to be very difficult and likely to get more difficult over time | 00:01 |
| kosh | I know it seriously sucks | 00:01 |
| kosh | if you want to keep using zope then you would need to use plone because they are going to kill off everything else | 00:01 |
| kosh | what really bites is that zope is the only app server out there I know of that has a good security track record | 00:01 |
| rokka_ | i don't understand a thing from developing with plone.. | 00:01 |
| kosh | I plan to be out of programming in 3-4 years so I just have to keep my stuff working for that long | 00:02 |
| kosh | but starting new with this stuff is not a good idea | 00:02 |
| kosh | if I was going to build a new system from scratch I would probably use pyramid | 00:03 |
| rokka_ | so what do you recommend? | 00:03 |
| rokka_ | ok | 00:03 |
| kosh | however I don't know of any system that will be around long term | 00:03 |
| kosh | long term maintainable systems are just not cool anymore | 00:03 |
| kosh | it is more cool to burn down and start over and over and over | 00:03 |
| mcdonc | been doing pyramid for 3 yrs now, pretty committed | 00:04 |
| kosh | I don't really like the modern direction of software development | 00:04 |
| kosh | mcdonc: maybe pyramid will be different but you do have to admit that most systems go for a little while and then people seem to do their best to crater them since they are no longer the cool thing | 00:04 |
| kosh | mcdonc: just like core 2 zope features get removed that have had to be modified in 5 years because they still work without any issues just to make the codebase smaller and break applications | 00:05 |
| kosh | s/have had/have not had | 00:05 |
| mcdonc | thats just a factoring thing isnt it | 00:05 |
| mcdonc | i mean.. add a dependency and its back right? | 00:06 |
| kosh | when I looked in the docs it did not have it it exactly how to add a dependency back for what was removed | 00:06 |
| kosh | just a vague thing about adding a dependency but not where or how | 00:06 |
| mcdonc | well, that's zope. | 00:06 |
| kosh | no it has gotten far far harder | 00:06 |
| mcdonc | i mean.. that kind of shit is what is killing zope, if anything. | 00:07 |
| mcdonc | docs | 00:07 |
| kosh | nobody even packages it anymore, we used to have packages in deb/ubuntu etc | 00:07 |
| kosh | but now with the way it is installed that is a royal bitch | 00:07 |
| kosh | some debian developers are trying to figure out a way to package it again and that is a pain in the neck | 00:07 |
| mcdonc | well you might yearn for the days of everything ships with everything else, but i sure dont | 00:08 |
| mcdonc | that sucked hard | 00:08 |
| kosh | darned if I know why zope devs seem to think that the current system is such a great idea when it is incompatible with any other way of installing software | 00:08 |
| kosh | at least when it was just Zope2-x.y.z.tar.gz that was easier to deal with | 00:08 |
| mcdonc | isnt it just "easy_install zope"? | 00:08 |
| kosh | last I looked easy_install is kind of a pain to deal with long term | 00:09 |
| kosh | adding,removing,updating etc | 00:09 |
| * mcdonc rolls eyes | 00:09 | |
| kosh | apt-get is much easier to deal with | 00:10 |
| mcdonc | i dunno man, this luddism was understandable in 2006... but time moves on | 00:11 |
| kosh | why is it luddhism to want a system that integrates with existing intallation systems? | 00:12 |
| rokka_ | so why are plone people modifying zope2 to be incompatible with previous versions and not forking their own zope-like engine | 00:12 |
| mcdonc | that's an independent thing | 00:12 |
| kosh | time has moved on, I find that software is getting worse and I am getting out | 00:12 |
| mcdonc | if nobody from debian wants to package the thing, and you wont, then... | 00:12 |
| kosh | people from debian do want to package it, they have been working on it | 00:12 |
| kosh | the current way zope is done makes that a bitch | 00:12 |
| mcdonc | how is it any different than any other python package? | 00:13 |
| kosh | it is easier to package all of kde or gnome then zope | 00:13 |
| mcdonc | they ship lots of those alreaedy | 00:13 |
| kosh | yeah it is not the same as other python packages, it used to be the same though | 00:13 |
| mcdonc | rokka_: they dont, kosh is being a little dramatic i think | 00:13 |
| kosh | the whole buildout thing is not like other python packages | 00:13 |
| mcdonc | kosh: how is it not the same? it has a setup.py, console scripts... | 00:13 |
| mcdonc | if you do "python setup.py install" inside a zope checkout, it works like any other python package | 00:14 |
| kosh | I wil have to try that again | 00:14 |
| kosh | when I tried that with one of the 2.13 versions it did not work for me at all | 00:14 |
| kosh | but darned if I remember the exact reason now | 00:14 |
| kosh | I have done that with 2.11 and below though without any problems | 00:15 |
| rokka_ | maybe i must hack something like plone + zope2 ( for templatesa nd stuff ) and a different zodb file for my app dat[A[A[A[A[A | 00:18 |
| rokka_ | mm.. | 00:26 |
| rokka_ | thanks for info | 00:31 |
| mcdonc | kosh: http://paste.ofcode.org/vfrBQ7UZ322aDNhPB2LjFC | 00:33 |
| mcdonc | i certainly have my share of gripes with zope, but it doesn't help at all to create imaginary ones | 00:33 |
| kosh | cool it worked | 00:34 |
| mcdonc | for better or worse, it's no better or worse than any other python package in 2011 | 00:36 |
| mcdonc | it has a lot of dependencies, that's probably why debian folks are slow packaging it | 00:37 |
| mcdonc | but that's no different than any other big system really | 00:37 |
| rokka_ | so it is possible to do what i originally asked? | 00:38 |
| rokka_ | or is defining a new object really difficult thing? | 00:39 |
| kosh | I found some documentation that used to work but zope has changed since then and the docs have not been updated | 00:39 |
| kosh | it is not hard, just no real docs on it anymore that I know of | 00:39 |
| rokka_ | i simple want to make a shopping basket and add rows to it.. and maybe then also save and manipulate orders.. | 00:40 |
| mcdonc | rokka_: sure.. i mean.. its possible.. that's what zope itself does of course.. no good docs on it tho | 00:40 |
| rokka_ | :l | 00:40 |
| mcdonc | where do you start really? i mean.. if this wasnt an irc convo and we were sitting in the same room we could probably help, but as it is it's kind of hopeless | 00:42 |
| mcdonc | kosh: its the same docs as any other python package | 00:42 |
| kosh | http://old.zope.org/Members/maxm/HowTo/minimal_01 I don't see how that is the same as any other python package | 00:43 |
| kosh | and that does not even cover security declarations or initiliazing the product | 00:43 |
| mcdonc | that's *developing in zope* | 00:44 |
| mcdonc | nothing to do with installing zope | 00:44 |
| mcdonc | how do they have anything at all to do with each other? | 00:44 |
| kosh | that is what he was asking about | 00:44 |
| kosh | developing a content object for zope | 00:45 |
| mcdonc | ok, but you responded to me saying "I dont see how that's the same as any other python package", and i never said it was | 00:45 |
| mcdonc | whole different thing | 00:45 |
| kosh | I think various threads of the conversation got mixed up | 00:46 |
| mcdonc | maybe i missed something.. i thought you were talking about docs about how to install zope | 00:46 |
| kosh | doesn't really matter much | 00:47 |
| mcdonc | rokka_: in any case, what you want to do is possible, but the docs are awful.. as a result i'd suggest starting with some simpler system if you don't need "the whole plone" | 00:48 |
| rokka_ | kosh: ok.. thanks .. i thought i had to import something like Persistent | 00:48 |
| mcdonc | if you do need the whole plone, well, good luck | 00:48 |
| rokka_ | hmm.. but plone has nice gui to add users and do pages that don't need custom logic.. | 00:48 |
| mcdonc | yes, at a nontrivial cost | 00:49 |
| rokka_ | and login form | 00:49 |
| mcdonc | learning how to make a plone product is likely harder than coding that stuff yourself. | 00:49 |
| kosh | SimpleItem inherits from Persistent | 00:49 |
| rokka_ | stuff that i need for my project: login+users, templates for ui, scripts and somekind of database | 00:50 |
| mcdonc | yeah, plone is so hardcore overkill for that set of requirements | 00:50 |
| rokka_ | :> | 00:51 |
| rokka_ | ok.. | 00:51 |
| rokka_ | so do you recommend pyramid or what? | 00:51 |
| rokka_ | i would not like to use apache+php+mysql for this too:( | 00:52 |
| rokka_ | there must be something better.. | 00:52 |
| mcdonc | i hesitate to suggest it because i haven't really used it.. but there's a project named "apex" here: http://thesoftwarestudio.com/apex/ | 00:53 |
| mcdonc | that advertises itself as a library for doing various kinds of authentication in pyramid | 00:53 |
| mcdonc | my recommendation for pyramid has to be tempered with the fact that i am its primary developer, fwiw. | 00:54 |
| mcdonc | but.. yeah. pyramid. | 00:54 |
| mcdonc | apex may even be overkill | 00:55 |
| mcdonc | the pyramid tutorials have simpler authentication/authorization in them | 00:55 |
| mcdonc | https://docs.pylonsproject.org/projects/pyramid/1.2/#tutorials | 00:56 |
| mcdonc | anyway, offtopic for zope.. not here to poach, just trying to help | 00:56 |
| mcdonc | there's a #pyramid channel if you investigate and want more info | 00:57 |
| kosh | feel free to poach | 00:58 |
| kosh | betabug and I are basically the only ones left here | 00:58 |
| mcdonc | just easier than trying to explain how to make a zope product really | 00:59 |
| rokka_ | mcdonc: okay.. does pyramid have template system ? | 00:59 |
| mcdonc | yes, several of them | 00:59 |
| kosh | trying to tell people how to start writing zope products is not easy | 00:59 |
| mcdonc | rokka_: those docs are up to date as of yesterday.. so i'd suggest running through them, and maybe coding along to one of the tutorials | 01:00 |
| rokka_ | mcdonc: ok :) | 01:01 |
| mcdonc | and /join #pyramid if you need help, it's offtopic here | 01:03 |
| mcdonc | oh you did | 01:03 |
| rokka_ | ;D | 01:03 |
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| planetzopebot | Book Review: Play Framework Cookbook (Martin Aspeli) http://www.martinaspeli.net/articles/book-review-play-framework-cookbook | 02:09 |
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| xanalogica | In updating some old code, I just hit a problem where the ZCML "browser:addform" directive is absent from Zope2.13.9. It was there under Zope.2.12.10. What is the recommended replacement? It doesn't seem to have been moved elsewhere that I can find. | 12:15 |
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