IRC log of #zope3-dev for Tuesday, 2005-03-01

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philiKONsrichter, wow, dude, what happened to the add menu?00:25
philiKONconstraints out of wack?00:25
srichterI know; I saw it too00:27
srichterI have to look at it00:27
srichterbut I have right now other changes on my checkout, so it has to wait a few hours00:28
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philiKONthat's ok00:30
philiKONi actually just realized it when reading your lines from above00:30
srichterI dunno what happened, but it has probably to do with adding the layer attribute to menus00:31
philiKONeither that, or submenus00:31
philiKONweird that no test is catching on00:32
srichterI doubt it is sub-menus; they just did not miss with that00:32
srichterno kidding!00:32
philiKONalso, ever since somebody messed with the CSS, the blue action bar is totally messed up00:33
philiKONit's only half-way blue00:33
srichtermmh, not for me00:33
philiKONhmm, we only have had 1 database schema evolvement? i would have thought that we had more than once zodb-relevant changes00:34
philiKONsrichter, browser?00:34
philiKONah, hmm00:34
philiKONi'm using firefox 1.000:34
srichterI think we need to have a second generation; oh well00:35
philiKONthat's ok00:36
philiKONit's better to have 10 small generations than one big one00:36
srichterthat's easy said for easy refactorings00:37
srichteras it turned out I could not leave earlier generations alone when I did my CA cleanups00:37
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philiKONwell, small atomic generations should make life easier00:38
philiKONbecause you only have to worry about getting from n to n+100:38
srichternot if many changed are interrelated00:39
philiKONthat's true00:40
philiKONbut i thought there had been more atomic changes00:40
philiKONdidn't realize the CA cleanup was interwoven with other stuff00:40
srichterwell, it was interwoven with itself00:41
srichterdue to the substantial changes, the previous generation code did not work anymore00:41
philiKONah, that makes sensee00:44
philiKONanyway, gotta get back to studies00:44
srichtersee ya00:44
srichterhave fun00:44
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philiKONsrichter, btw, that new introspector view is pretty cool, but it is different from the old one in two things:01:08
philiKONa) it doesn't look at the object instance itself anymore01:08
philiKONb) it isn't an objectview anymore, so it doesnt' get the skin beautification01:08
philiKONi think a) might even be an advantage, though we might decide to need it again later01:08
philiKONhowever, i think b) will sooner or later be necessary01:09
philiKONjust for user-friendliness01:09
srichterwell, rotterdam does not have the CSS facilities setup to give a decent view01:09
srichteronce it does, it can be done01:09
srichterall the pieces that are used are macros, so they are easily reusable01:09
philiKONwhat do you mean? can't that apidoc view be inside a @@standard_templates/page?01:10
srichterif you do not want to use the macros, you can at least use the new public apidoc API for introspection01:10
srichterwell, only if you write a separate view or use an iframe01:10
srichterapidoc does not use the rotterdam skin01:10
philiKONwell, @@standard_templates/page doesn't mean "use rotterdam skin"01:11
philiKONit means: be a page01:11
philiKONwhat that means is up to the traverser01:11
srichterwell, that would require it to be a separate view01:11
srichterright now the new introspector tab is just a redirector01:11
philiKONso, it couldn't be both a page in apidoc and elsewhere?01:11
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philiKONah, redirector to the class's apidoc page i presume01:12
philiKONi understand what you mean then01:12
srichterthe redirector gets the class and generates the appropriate apidoc URL01:12
philiKONyah, got that just now01:12
philiKONok, we migh tneed a new page then01:12
philiKONthat takes the bits and pieces that are already there01:12
srichtersure, it won't be me though01:12
philiKONi know01:13
srichterI hate the introspector tab :-)01:13
philiKONi wish it could be me01:13
philiKONi think for the purpose of information and a quick entry to the apidoc tool it's great01:13
philiKONit's a great way of seeing what interfaces a particular object provides01:13
srichterhonestly, I have never wanted to know that :-)01:13
srichterit seems to be a uyseful tab, but I wonder how often it is used01:14
philiKONwell, you and i read code. other people don't01:14
philiKONbut i guess the redirector for now is fine01:14
srichterthat was my thought01:14
philiKONgiven the extra mile we'd have to go01:14
philiKONnever mind then01:15
* philiKON gets back to Landau/Lifschitz01:15
srichteruuh, which one?01:15
philiKONfirst and second one01:15
srichterI am working with the fluid dynamics one right now01:15
philiKONHydrodynamics it's called in german01:15
srichterI see01:16
srichterthese are really awesome books01:16
srichterthese guys were great01:16
philiKONhell yes01:16
philiKONi've never seen a cleaner, shorter and yet scrutinizable description of theoretical problems01:16
srichterphiliKON: do you know how to retract a checkin?01:26
jdzI don't believe you can with subversion.  You can only check in with the changes reversed to effectly "undo" it...01:31
philiKONdo an svn merge -r n:n-1 where n is the revision you want to undo01:48
philiKONsrichter, wow, the english landau/lifshitzes are insanely expensive. i bought my german ones (the nice red hardcover with golden letters) for 18 euros each (used but they look like they've never been touched)... i guess it's because they were cheap to buy back in the GDR :)01:51
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srichterphiliKON: I paid 60 bucks for mine02:37
philiKONsrichter, btw, i'm thinking about bying the jackson (E&M) just for reference... how do you like that book?02:44
srichterit is very good02:44
srichtersame style as Landau & Lifshitz02:45
srichterprecise and to the point02:45
srichtersometimes doing the math yourself from one step to another is very involved02:45
philiKONwith Landau i've actually managed to keep up with that pretty well (people warned me that it was very hard with L&L)02:46
philiKONi've only need paper once or twice while working through mechanics02:46
srichterJackson is the standard E&M text in graduate school in the states02:47
philiKONyes, i know02:48
philiKONour prof here said "it's the bible" :)02:48
srichteryes it is02:48
philiKON*gasp* it costs 82 euros at amazon.de02:50
srichteryep, costs the same here02:51
srichteryou should also get Goldstein02:51
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srichterwhich is the bible for mechanics02:51
philiKONi think i'm fine with L&L02:53
philiKONto be honest, i wonder how much i'll need mechanics and E&M literature after these exams02:53
philiKONi already have L&L and Nolting (german author) on both02:53
philiKONbut i guess it couldn't hurt having the two U.S. "bibles" in my library02:58
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srichterphiliKON: aehm, I need mechanics all the time03:41
srichtera lot of fluid dynamcis problems are based on that material03:41
philiKONsrichter, true03:42
philiKONi can also imagine that you need stuff like oscillations all the time late ron03:42
philiKONand of course, hamilton mechanics are a very corner stone of quantum mechanics03:43
philiKONi've decided to have my parents give them to me for my birthday which is coming up next week :)03:43
philiKON60 euros each is kinda expensive03:43
philiKONbut i wanna have 'em03:43
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projekt01PlacefulSetup, if I call zapi.getSiteManager(context) I get the local site manager. If the context is a child of the local site manager, I get the global site manager.13:58
projekt01That's not nice.13:59
projekt01Hm, I think we have o provide a adapter for SiteManagementFolders providing13:59
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philiKONprojekt01, i think we shouldn't use placefulsetup anymore14:12
philiKONdunno, jim said so14:12
philiKONi'd like to know myself14:12
projekt01Yes, I heard that, but I don't know why? But in some usecase I see no other way for to write tests.....?14:13
philiKONi guess it's ok to use it14:14
philiKONbut you might have to beautify later :)14:14
projekt01I hope, I have many of them in the Tiks ;-(14:14
projekt01I think it's not a problem of the setup, I think it' a problem of a missing adapter.14:15
projekt01I'm not able to get the site manager if I call the zali.getSiteManager(child of site manager)14:16
projekt01Zali = zapi14:16
projekt01This call returns the global site manager14:16
projekt01Could be a problem in the SiteManagerAdapter where should return the site manager14:18
philiKONyeah, looks like a missing adapter14:18
projekt01Could be, I'll take a look14:20
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projekt01Ups, it was my fault, I had a wrong test setup14:34
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mgedminfyi, changes in issue 339 broke schoolbell's functional tests and css styling15:45
mgedminwe'll cope, but I just wanted to give you a heads-up15:45
mgedmin(<div class="error"> was changed to <span class="error"> and moved above the widget itself rather than below)15:45
srichteryes, it caused me a lot of troubles fixing the tests too15:59
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srichterI hope the changes are good :-)15:59
srichtermgedmin: if you don't like them, we can back them out, but Philip spent some time tweaking it, so I am hopeful he improved things :-)16:00
mgedmindon't bother, I'll just define my own widget_macros.pt16:04
mgedminI already use some customized macros for checkbox widgets16:05
mgedminand adding extra text (e..g units) to the right of the widget16:05
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mgedminit will be better to define these custom macros in @@form_macros rather than @@standard_macros16:05
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srichteryeah, my philosphy is just to not get involved in fixing rotterdam16:24
srichterevery time I touch it I break something16:24
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* SteveA continues his eeevil campaign to get the ZMI removed from zope316:26
* d2m supports SteveA16:26
Damascenethe gui interface?16:26
SteveAit should totally be an utterly separate add-on16:27
SteveAso should the zodb16:27
Damascenebut isn't zope3 heavily integrated into both of those things you jsut mentioend?16:27
SteveAthere is too much code in zope3 that makes assumptions that both things are there.16:27
SteveAzope3 shouldn't be so heavily integrated into both those things.  that wasn't the intent of zope3.16:28
Damasceneyeah i'd have liked it if the storage system transparently wrote out into sql or zodb... etc.16:28
SteveAi'm not saying that they aren't important16:28
d2mSteveA: would you think at least default layer is necessary ?16:28
SteveAbut, they shouldn't be "core" because they encourage dependency16:28
Damasceneyeah but isn't it too late now?16:29
Damascenebooks are written out, etc...16:29
SteveAd2m: I'd like it if when you start up zope3 without having installed the ZMI product, you get nothing.  404 on every page.16:29
d2mSteveA: same here16:29
SteveADamascene: there's always ZopeX 3.x where x is sufficiently high16:29
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Damascene3.99 ?  :)16:29
SteveAI'd use Zope 4.0416:30
* SteveA stops his eeevil rant16:30
Damascenei guess i see your point though16:30
Damasceneand how come it's so evil it requires three es?  :)16:30
* mgedmin sniffs the <eventlog> zconfig directive16:31
philiKONSteveA, the idea of promoting z3 as a pure framework is attractive16:38
philiKONeven when talking about as the application server16:38
philiKONhowever, people will want some GUI to play with16:38
philiKONnot everyone likes reading interfaces before doing something else16:38
SteveAphiliKON: i'm not all that bothered how it is promoted.  i am bothered that various zope3 infrastructure is coupled to the zodb and the gui.16:38
SteveAit should be easy to add the zmi -- just a line of zcml or a single package include.16:39
SteveAit can even be shipped with that enabled by default16:39
SteveAbut, when developing, it should be an add-on16:39
philiKONso, what, for you, *is* the zmi?16:39
SteveAi want to encourage many guis, not emphasise the zmi16:39
SteveAto me, the zmi is a kind of experimental pseudo zope2 thing16:40
philiKONis @@contents.html the zmi? is ++etc++site/@@SomeView the zmi?16:40
philiKONyeah, that's probably a good characterization. but i meant physically16:40
philiKONi'd like to know what you want to "rip" out or at least decouple16:40
SteveAlike i said, in the bare configuration, i want to see 404 on every page.16:41
philiKONi'm trying to understand what that means16:41
philiKONdo you also want objectviews to disappear?16:41
philiKONmeaning, container's @@contents.html view?16:42
SteveAif you have a container and it is traversable to, then i guess it can have an @@contents.html view16:43
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SteveAbut, i'm not sure how useful that is for most applications16:43
SteveAsounds like a zmi "i want to manage objects through the web" kind of thing16:43
philiKONproblem with the zmi righ tnow is that the objectviews are defined everywhere16:44
philiKONone way of disabling the zmi would be the new zcml:condition16:44
philiKONwe introduce a feature "zmi" that can turned on or off16:44
SteveAor, make the views all on a "zmi" layer16:44
SteveAand only mark that layer on the request for url paths where you want to use it16:45
SteveAor, compose your layer using the zmi layer when you want that16:45
philiKONwell, only include the zmi layer in skins you want to be based on the zmi16:45
philiKONthe rule of thumb would be "if your view is registered in zmi_views or zmi_actions menus, it should be in the 'zmi' layer"16:46
mgedminerror: (32, 'Broken pipe')16:48
mgedminthe scary traceback on 303 redirects appears in plain zope 3 too!16:48
mgedminso it is not a problem with my logger configuration16:48
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srichtercan anyone here point me to som efree code on how to realize DHTML menus?17:09
mgedminsrichter, pehaps? or try looking in
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jhauser_srichter: coolmenus.dhtmlcentral.com19:24
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jhauser_oh it's down ... nevermind19:25
srichterits ok19:30
srichterI figured it out19:30
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srichterjhauser_: see
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jhauser_nice :-)19:33
srichterthanks; unfortunately I do not know enough CSS to make it really nice19:39
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mgedminwhere in ZMI could I find a form with validation?21:10
mgedminI'd like to see how error messages look after the last restructuring21:11
srichtermgedmin: I could not find one either ;-)21:32
mgedminI found it: dmo widgets -> add int widget -> leave all fields empty21:32
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srichterI am not sure this is an improvement; oh well21:58
* mgedmin doesn't like the way errors look now22:06
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srichterI don't like the labels either22:23
srichterit is much harder to read22:23
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