IRC log of #zope3-dev for Tuesday, 2005-04-26

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C8NNokia has generously donated two series 60 smartphones to help prototype phone-based interfaces to SchoolTool.  Series 60 phones are the first to be scriptable in Python. 00:34
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J1mvery cool00:50
* C8N wants z3 on his phone....00:55
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srichterJ1m:  still there?02:04
srichterJ1m: how likely is it that local subscriptions would work?02:04
srichter(if I implement the necessary code)02:05
srichterdarn, this would not work either02:06
srichterI am trying to figure out how to handle servers that do not return data based on a location/path02:07
J1mI don't see why they wouldn't work02:07
srichterlike, IRC, SMTP, POP302:07
srichterok, cool; I probably try that02:07
J1mIt depends what you mean by "if I implement the necessary code" :)02:08
srichterof course :-)02:08
srichterJ1m: I am trying to figure out how to handle request of servers, like SMTP, that do not have a location; I guess the best would be, if the request creates an event02:09
srichteradn different apps can listen to those events02:09
J1mThat sounds elaborate02:10
srichteryep, I agree02:10
J1mWhy not just make the servers global utilities that provide interfaces and let *them* decide how to map into the object space.02:11
J1mThe servers should have abstract apis that hide the protocol details.02:11
srichterso not even use the publisher?02:11
srichterJ1m: twisted abstracts that already very nicely02:12
J1malong the lines of the smtpd module in the standard library02:12
J1mthen you're done ;)02:13
srichterfor example, for SMTP it only requires you to effectively implement three methods02:13
srichterok, this sounds really good02:14
srichterI'll try to implement the generic server (should be easy) and a utility that knows how to handle the requests02:15
srichterJ1m: thanks02:15
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C8Nclaird: Also, is #zope dead?02:18
C8Nclaird: What's the right place to talk Zope?  Is it now #plone?02:18
C8Nthere isn't a zope2 chan?02:19
srichterC8N: I am pretty sure the is #zope02:20
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srichterC8N: so it is very alive :-)02:22
C8Nis a 74ppl chan a dead chan? o.o02:22
C8Nnote that i was tempted to drive him here02:23
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jelknerI'm trying to teach myself zope3 application development.  Is it appropriate to ask fairly newby questions on this channel?10:15
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SteveAjelkner: yes10:20
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jelknerSteveA: I'm trying to write a minimalist app based on the buddydemo10:25
jelknerrunzope now gives this error: ZopeSAXParseException: File "/home/jelkner/learn_zope/lib/python/buddydemo/configure.zcml", line 1.0,  unbound prefix10:26
jelknerconfigure.zcml is a one liner, so I don't know what this could mean10:26
jelknergoogling didn't help either10:26
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Theunidid you remove the namespace declarations for the xml?10:30
jelknerTheuni: here is are lines 2 and 3 from configure.zcml:10:37
jelkner    xmlsn:browser=''10:38
jelknerso i think the answer is, no, i didn't remove them.10:38
jelkneroh no, i reversed 'ns' and 'sn' in the second line10:40
jelknerthanks, it works now ;-)10:40
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VladDracthis is always annoying.. if I have a syntax error in for example my interface definition, zope3 halts somewhere in the zcml where the interface module is referenced14:47
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regebroHmmm. I'm trying to get translations working in Five and need to get the language negotiation working. CPS changes the language it by a call to Localizer.changeLangauge()...15:04
regebroI guess I either need to call something similar in Zope3, or provide some sort of language negotiator thingymajigyadaptersprocket that makes the zope3 langauge negotiator ask Localizer. :)15:04
regebroAny ideas?15:04
VladDracnot me :)15:10
regebromeh :(15:11
regebroI think this is the last bit I need to get translations working in Five. I think...15:12
VladDracisn't there some REQUEST variable you can use?15:12
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regebroWell, I'd rather not.15:16
vladoregebro, override the userpreferedlanguages adapter15:18
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faassenregebro: you're already using Five to do the translations?15:19
regebroah, a I need a negotiatorsprocketmagictranslatoradapter. OK. thanks vlado, I'll look into that.15:19
faassenregebro: the z3 i18n engine?15:19
regebrofaassen: Yes, since a couple of hours ago.15:19
faassenregebro: whoah.15:19
regebrobut I can't get french to work. ;)15:19
faassenregebro: that's way cool. should thsi also work with non-Five ZPT?15:19
faassenregebro: I mean, if you get it to work, would it work with other ZPTs too?15:20
faassenregebro: i.e. just use the z3 i18n engine for arbitrary ZPTs?15:20
regebroI dont understand the question.15:21
regebroIn Zope3, the z3 i18n engine already works.15:21
regebroin Zope2, it doens't exist.15:21
regebroin Five both need to work, and the z3 kinda alsmot works but not really, yet.:)15:21
faassenregebro: what I mean is, if I have a ZPT in CMF, say.15:29
faassenregebro: a template.15:29
faassenregebro: and I put in i18n:translate.15:29
faassenregebro: can you make it so that the Zope 3 i18n engine is used to find the translated string?15:30
regebroIf you are using Five, yes.15:31
VladDrac  File "/home/ivo/Work/Zope3/Zope3-svn/src/zope/app/i18nfile/browser/", line 36, in size15:32
VladDrac    sized = ISized(self.context._get(language))15:32
VladDracNameError: global name 'ISized' is not defined15:32
regebrofaassen, The z3 i18n engine is called first. If it has the requested domain, it will be used to translate the message.15:32
regebroif the domain does not exist, it gets deferred to whatever translation serveice you use in Zope2.15:32
faassenregebro: if you're using Five, i.e. you have Five installed? or what?15:33
faassenregebro: I mean, obviuosly I'm using a non-five ZPT.15:33
faassenregebro: okay, cool. we may switch to that with Silva then sometime.15:33
faassenregebro: as PlacelessTranslationService is not working out, it gets way too freakish on the unicode/encoding front.15:34
regebroYeah, that makes no difference. i18n:saltychocolate uses the same translation mechanism no matter what.15:34
faassenregebro: cool.15:34
faassenregebro: are you aiming to add this to five 1.0? I mean, how big impact is this? I want to ship the thing tomorrow.15:35
VladDracis it okay to fix the ISized import directly in trunk?15:35
faassenregebro: so I'm a bit worried about last minute changes.15:35
* VladDrac 's always a bite unsure about working outside of branches :)15:35
faassenVladDrac: if it's a bugfix and it's all straightforward, sure. I don't know what this is about. :)15:35
regebroDoes PlacelessTranslation service store their .po files according to the dir/en/LC_MESSAGES/domain.po way?15:35
VladDracfaassen: missing ISized import15:35
faassenregebro: no, I don't think so, it's flatter.15:35
faassenVladDrac: fix it. :)15:35
regebroVladDrac: A missing import really seems quite silly to make a branch for. If you are sure that this is all there is to it (which it seems to be).15:36
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regebrofaassen: OK, same as we then, with i18n/en.po or something.15:36
regebroz3 needs that <language>/LC_MESSAGES for some reason. But moving things over, compiling the catalogs to .mo files and having a zcml that imports the message catalogs seems to be all there is to it.15:37
regebroWell, and writing a negotiatorsprocketmagictranslatoradapter...15:38
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VladDrachmm, well15:38
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VladDracthe import fixes one problem and introduces the next15:39
VladDracI guess i18nimage is just broken (and I guess there are no functional / unittests to detect its brokenness)15:39
faassenconcerning forms in Zope 3.15:39
regebroVladDrac: So, probably you should make a branch and add some tests, and fix it.15:40
srichterthere is no branch needed15:40
srichterjust fix it in the trunk and add tests :-)15:40
srichter(well, write the tests first to point out the brokenness15:40
faassenI have a form with a changed().15:41
srichterfaassen: I am listening, if you are continuing ;-)15:43
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VladDracwell I know nothing about i18n image, I just added one to see what it does15:45
VladDracso for now I'll just stick to creating a collector issue15:45
VladDracsorry :)15:45
faassenand in the changed(), depending on the value of one field,..15:45
faassensrichter: sorry..15:45
faassensrichter: got distracted, someone asked a question.15:45
faassenanyway, in the changed(), depending on the value of field x, I change the value of field y on the context object.15:45
faassenso I have something like if field x is true, add 1 to field y, say.15:46
faassenif I do that, that works, but the form redisplays still showing the original field y that the user filled in.15:46
faasseninstead of the adjusted value.15:46
faassenI tried meddling with the request and also put the changed value in ther,e but that didn't help.15:46
faassenso I'm trying to comprehend what's going on here.15:46
srichterso you are on the right track15:47
srichterif the request's form data has a value, then it is used instead of the value in the object15:47
faassenright, that's what I figured.15:48
srichtermaybe overwriting the form value does not work?15:48
faassenwell, I tried to print those values.15:48
faassenand they were indeed changed.15:48
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faassenI mean, right after.15:48
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faassenbut somehow the original request seems to come into play.15:48
srichtermmh, strange15:48
srichteroh, of course15:49
faassenI'll note this is all in the context of five, I've yet to replicate this in Zope 3 but that requires some setup.15:49
srichterI think the widgets are already instantiated at this point15:49
faassenand they're reused?15:49
faassenor you mean when changed() gets called the widgts for the next display are displayed?15:49
* faassen hms.15:49
srichterso the value might have been already determined?!?15:49
faassenyou'd think changed()'d get called before it shows the form again.15:49
srichterthe first thing a form view does is to isntantiate the widgets15:49
srichterit might be that the widgets store the form value in them15:50
faassenso what I could do is mess around with setupWidgets or somtehing like that.15:50
faassenbut by then it's too early.15:50
faassenI don't have the changed() call yet.15:50
srichterright, or go directly to the widget and change the value15:50
srichterdo it during the changed() call15:50
srichterall widgets are available as view.x_widget15:51
faassenyeah, I'll try going to the widget. they're attributes on the form view, right?15:51
faassenI'll try that.15:51
faassenI'm learning a lot about the complexities of using the form machinery..15:51
faassenperhaps in a few months I'll have some suggestions. :)15:51
srichteryeah, I really hope Gary will do a good job cleaning it up15:51
faassensome stuff which should be easier requires a bit of component zen.15:51
srichterjim also wants to remove a lot of the widget's responsibility15:52
srichterso I think it will be all much easier in Zope 3.215:52
faassenlike, I have to write a decorator class and a new schema just to display one field differently, in one case (this virtual field is a value determined by two content fields.)15:52
faassenif the form machinery could be used independently a bit more..15:52
faassenbut I still need to ponder this more. perhaps Gary and Jim will both fix it before I'm done thinking. :)15:53
srichtermaybe :-)15:53
srichterwe definitely want to fix interfield cosntraints as well15:53
faassenthis isn't so much a constraint as a field I want in the form but isn't in the data model.15:53
faassenanyway, I'll try messing about with the widget.15:53
srichterwriting up your use case would helop Gary, Garrett and Jim15:54
faassensrichter: using setRenderedValue() in changed indeed did the trick, thanks!15:59
srichterok, cool15:59
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projekt01srichter, do you know is the session working?16:07
projekt01And can I store persistent objects in the session?16:07
srichterit will be in the release16:08
projekt01Hm, I get some ZODB errors like; raise POSKeyError(oid)16:08
srichterwell, they will get lost, I would think16:08
srichterI do not know anything about sessions16:08
projekt01Yes, but where?16:08
srichterI don't know anything about sessions :-)16:09
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mkerrinsrichter: I have (eventually) added my ftp bug report to the twisted site at
mkerrinsrichter: it contains the patch to get the file upload and delete working16:17
srichterlet's hope spiv reads it :-)16:17
srichterthis is cool16:19
srichtermkerrin: ok, I messaged andrew in hope that he will apply the patch soon16:20
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mkerrincool - thanks16:23
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VladDracif I'm building a zope3 product with a local catalog and other utilities, would something implementing ISite / SiteManager derived be a good base as rootfolder for the application?16:33
efgeBTW in plone-dev they talked about using dir/en/LC_MESSAGES/domain.po for PTS but I think everyone agreed that it's dumb, and it encodes meta-information in directory names, so the kept i18n/en.po16:36
srichterefge: well, then they decided against the standard way it is done16:39
srichterin fact, it is part of the gettext standard, iirc, that it has to be domain.po16:40
srichterto name your file en.po is also dumb, because what do you do with multiple domains16:40
srichterand translators will hate you, because they have 3-5 en.po files lying around all with different content16:41
srichterI do agree that LC_MESSAGES is overkill in our particular case, but not in general16:41
regebroWell, I agree that the idea of having the language in a directory and the domain in the file name is alright.16:44
regebroI just don't understand what LC_MESSAGES is....16:45
regebroBut if it's gettext standard, then why not. It's good to behave in expected ways.16:45
efgeI don't have a strong opinion, it's just that deep directory hierarchies are a pain16:46
srichterbecause the language directory can also contain locale information16:46
srichterin our case this extra level is unused, since our locale information comes from a different place16:47
efgeput do these typically change in a project ?16:47
srichterbut I think KDE uses this, for example16:47
srichteryes, locales are corrected all the time16:47
srichterfor example, when we switched to the euro16:47
efgebut that's more the OS's responsibility, no ? whereas translations are per-project16:49
srichterefge: well, maybe, but you cannot trust the OS to provide all the right info16:51
srichterand in our case, we need all locales, because we are serving the one the user wants, not what the server OS provides16:52
srichterI guess KDE has a similar need, since they support multiple sessions16:52
srichter(and thin clients)16:53
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* VladDrac is getting somewhat confused by the moving around of classes, interfaces and deprecation17:08
* VladDrac is also trying (unsuccessfully) to create a Site folder17:08
srichterVladDrac: its all in the TXT files17:11
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VladDracsrichter: it describes basically what I'm trying17:16
srichterwhat error do you get then?17:17
VladDracmixing SiteManagerContainer17:17
VladDracwell if I just define a content type with the mixin, I get:17:17
VladDrac    raise ComponentLookupError('no site manager defined')17:17
VladDracif I explicitly set a sitemanager (in __init__, which is probably wrong), I get17:17
VladDrac    raise TypeError("Already a site")17:18
VladDracshould I use a factory to create my appsite?17:19
VladDrac(and set the sitemanager there?)17:19
srichterok, you can look at the folder implementation to what to do17:19
srichternothing special has to be done with the site manager code17:20
srichterif you want to immediately instantiate a your content object as a site, a factory would be best, I think17:20
srichterin placefulSetUp:17:21
srichterfolder = Folder()17:22
srichterit should be very straight forward17:23
srichterand don't worry about the BBB code17:23
srichteryou can safely ignore it17:23
srichterI spent a lot of time putting the BBB code out of the new one for clarity17:23
VladDracsetting a sitemanager from __init__ isn't the right way?17:30
VladDrac(I currently have a broken object in my zodb - can't view contents anymore, bah)17:31
VladDracftp to the rescue!17:31
srichterremove the Data.fs17:32
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VladDracdidn't expect to redefine permissions for IReadContainer/IWriteContainer if I derive from Folder17:52
VladDracbut I guess it will all make sense one day :)17:53
philiKONderiving from a class is one thing; that doesn't mean you inherit security declarations17:53
srichterVladDrac: philiKON is right; you may want totally new security declarations for a different object17:57
srichterI would even claim that you want most of the time different declarations, though we do not practice this yet17:57
VladDracok, but wouldn't it be sensible to inherit the 'default' permissions somehow?17:58
VladDracesp. with more complex baseclasses figuring out which interfaces you're inheriting from and securing them may become complex18:00
srichterthat would be far too implicit and cause surprises18:01
srichterI might not want to make a security declaration at all on my new object18:01
srichteralso, you always have the <require like_class="..." /> (or something like that) directive18:02
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VladDracah ok18:10
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srichterI love the new possibilities that twisted opens up18:40
regebroAnd it feels very nice to get rid of the parallell development.18:42
faassensrichter: what new possibilities prompted that remark?18:43
srichterfaassen: well, I am writing a cron-like scheduler right now, for example18:43
faassensrichter: ah, Twisted has infrastructure for that?18:43
srichterso all those Z2 hacks are not necessary anymore18:43
faassennow we only need to port your Twisted integration to Five. :)18:44
srichteryeah, it has a reactor.callLater(secs, callable, args, kw) method18:44
faassenregebro: should be reasonably straightforward, don't you think? :)18:44
faassensrichter: ah, neat.18:44
faassensrichter: does that persist across restarts?18:44
faassensrichter: I guess you just reinitialize scheduled events each restart.18:44
srichterno, right now I have to make that a global utility18:44
srichterit is harder for local utility18:45
srichterI think we will need some CA support for this18:45
regebrofaassen: Hehe...18:45
srichteri.e. we need to be able to look up to the site managers18:45
regebroPossibly. :)18:45
srichterthe linking is there, just not an API18:45
regebroFor example, I realized that the best way of fixing Zope2s traversal is to use Zope3s instead, and make the old humongous traversal method into a traversal adapter. :D18:46
srichterI need to be able to say: ok, the DB has been opened and connected, now we need to find all local subscribers that are interested in this event18:46
srichterthis is a very general issue though that we have not addressed at all18:47
regebroIt's totally cool anyway. And it's gonna help removing some Python-peoples fear of Zope.18:48
srichterI think I will also write a small IRC bot (based on Itamar's example) that is going to store recorded channel logs in the ZODB18:50
srichterand index it and display it any way you want18:50
srichterthis means of course that noone will ever hookup any other WSGI server to Zope 3 proper18:57
srichterbecause one would loose all those great twisted-related features18:57
VladDracI think I still have a twisted irc server lying around somewhere >:)18:57
srichterserver? cool.18:57
VladDrac /join /folder/subitem18:58
srichter:-) yep18:58
VladDracyeah a rather trivial one. It works though18:58
srichterI think the possibilities are almost endless now18:58
VladDracI even implemented an msn protocol for twisted once18:59
srichterI think Zope 3 provides a lot of the stuff the twisted people need as well18:59
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VladDracI'm currently working on a wx/twisted based tcpwatch-like tool btw19:00
VladDracallows you to monitor HTTP request/responses, set breakpoints on events (i.e. if /foo/bar is accessed), modify the request, reply stuff19:00
srichterwow, this could be run straight atop Zope 3 now19:01
C8Nin #python-gillian:19:04
C8N(15:28:00) teratorn: snake: twisted already has an msn client... :)19:04
C8N(15:28:06) snake: teratorn, i know19:04
VladDraccorrect, not mine btw19:07
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srichtermkerrin: hey, I totally missed your checkins19:27
srichtercould you subscribe to the Zope3-Checkin mailing list with the same E-mail address you are registered at, please?19:28
srichternever mind, I had seen them19:28
srichterI forgot :-(19:28
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srichtermkerrin: are you there?19:34
mkerrinyipe - I am back19:34
srichtermkerrin: very good work with the FTP server19:35
mkerrinthanks is it working for you19:35
srichtermkerrin: are you still in the process of writing the tests?19:35
srichterhave not tried; I just inspected the code19:35
mkerrinstarting soon :)19:35
srichterthere are just a few minor coding style things19:36
srichter(1) lines should not be longer than 80 chars and (2) modules must always have doc strings19:36
srichteryou can get a template from ZOPE3/zpl.py19:36
mkerrinright - whenever I adding the tests I will double check those items19:38
srichterI just checked in the fixes :-)19:39
srichterthat's what open source is for :-)19:39
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srichtermkerrin: do you know how to patch?19:49
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srichtermkerrin: nevermind; got it19:52
regebroHmmm... i18n question:19:53
regebroI have a schema with list, that's displayed by a listbox.19:53
regebroHow do I get the netried in the list box translated?19:53
regebro"netried" is swahongulu for "entries" ;)19:54
srichterthere is a way with vocabularies to do that19:54
srichterbut I do not remember how this goes19:54
srichterbasically the title of a vocabulary entry gets translated, but not the value or the key19:55
regebroYeah, I tries just doing    values=(_('TENTATIVE'), _('CONFIRMED'), _('CANCELED')), but nothing happened.19:55
srichterright, this should not work, because those are values and not titles19:56
* regebro slaps forehead.19:57
srichtermkerrin: the text program "ftp" works, but not konqui19:58
regebroOK, so I need to look into vocabularies again. I forgot everything about them....19:59
regebroI'll do that tomorrow... :)19:59
srichtermkerrin: we need to get the logs hooked up, so that we can use them to debug things19:59
srichterregebro: ok :-)19:59
srichtermkerrin: firefox works too20:00
mkerrinsrichter: cool - is that konqueror not working - there is a hack in the twisted code to deal with some things sent from konqueror20:02
mkerrinsrichter: which code be the problem20:02
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C8Ntrac is becoming zope3-like ;)
srichterC8N: what is trac?20:13
C8N Trac was an enhanced wiki and issue tracking system for software development projects. Trac uses a minimalistic approach to web-based software project management.20:14
srichterI see20:14
C8Ni like its wiki/issue/svn thight integration20:15
srichterI see20:15
C8Ni dislike clearsilver, too...20:16
srichteryeah, it's ugly20:16
C8Nmaybe with clearity...20:16
srichtermkerrin: CTRL+C is also not clean with the FTP server turned on20:17
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mkerrinsrichter: I know - I have being meaning to take a look at that20:29
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C8Nmkerrin: (19:23:21) srichter ha abbandonato la stanza (quit: "using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12").20:46
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MacYETis it ok that a method defined as method(x) within an interface  does not raise an exception upon verifyClass verification  for an implementation method(x,y='foo')?20:50
philiKONwell, the implementation *does* fullfill the interface, doesn't it?20:57
MacYETin some way yes :)20:57
philiKONthe interface promises you can call the callable as method(x); this is given by the implementation20:57
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mkerrinC8N: just noticed after sending - thanks21:02
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