IRC log of #zope3-dev for Monday, 2005-07-25

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* bob2 creats his first utility08:29
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mexiKONanguenot, just replied to your comment on issue 28413:08
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anguenotok it works as well13:18
anguenotthe idea was to avoid the confusion at the first place I guess, so id the NotFoundError is deprecated why not13:18
mexiKONthanks for looking into this issue; i hadn't realized it still existed :)13:23
anguenotI'm checking them right now13:23
anguenotreally want a 3.1 out :)13:23
anguenotWindows users in here ? Would be cool if someone could check if the behavior of #316 still occurs with the new testrunner13:25
anguenotpython bin/test -vpu --dir src\\zope\\13:25
anguenotI guess this will tell us13:25
mexiKONi think srichter is having a bug day this friday too. won't probably be able to make it13:25
anguenotreally ?13:26
anguenotI was writting a mail to propose one :)13:26
anguenotgreat ;)13:26
mexiKONyeah, he hasn't gotten aroudn to propose it yet13:26
projekt01mexiKON, are you coming to the NeckarSprint?13:26
mexiKONprojekt01, nope13:26
mexiKONunfortunately not13:27
mexiKONit's 2 weeks too late for me13:27
mexiKONyeh, uwe originally asked me to coach it13:27
mexiKONi would've liked to do it13:27
projekt01did you see your article in the newest (I forgot).. about z3. I think it's the already published one, right?13:29
mexiKONyou mean iX?13:29
projekt01Could be13:29
mexiKONor linux magazine?13:29
projekt01It's a dark blue cover13:29
* mexiKON looks13:30
projekt01Yeah, it's IX see,
projekt01Content Management komponentenorientiert: Zope X3.013:31
mexiKONthey took ages to publish this article13:31
projekt01X3.0 ;-)13:31
mexiKONanguenot, as for #316, i don't think the trunk is using the new test runner yet13:32
mexiKONand it's questionable whether 3.1 will13:32
mexiKON(as far as i understand J1m, it won't)13:32
mexiKONi never had problems running X3.0 tests on windows back when i wrote the book13:33
mexiKONbut maybe i just didn't use this particular setup/set of options/etc.13:33
anguenotwould be cool if someone could simply test13:33
* mexiKON doesn't feel like installing Windows on his mac again13:34
anguenotme neither :)13:34
anguenotDon't have a mac though13:35
anguenotbut still ;)13:35
mexiKONVirtualPC is so slow...13:35
mexiKONanguenot, you could write an email to the zope3-dev list. there's bound to be some windows users that know how to make a checkout of the trunk and run the tests in the described manner13:35
anguenotok doing this13:36
wiggy I can do a test on friday if nobody has done it before then13:36
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mgedmindoes anybody else think ILocalErrorReportingUtility is weird?16:48
mgedminit has a getProperties method that returns a dict, and a setProperties method that takes keyword arguments -- instead of three simple schema fields16:49
srichtermgedmin: I doubt anyone really ever looked at it, other than the original author, which was SteveA :-)16:50
bob2but it's EXTENSIBLE16:50
bob2that does sound dodge16:50
mgedminwaaah, and the inteface doesn't match the implementation16:51
srichtermgedmin: feel free to fix it :-)16:51
mgedminthe interface mentions getProperties()['copy_to_logfile'], but the implementation uses 'copy_to_zlog'16:51
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bob2does zlog even exist in zope3?16:51
srichtermgedmin: oh, look at where this API is used16:52
srichterI think there are use cases in the publisher somewhere16:52
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SteveA_i didnt' write the ILocalErrorReportingUtility17:04
SteveA_i may have touched in when doing some refactoring in the publisher17:04
srichtermmh, ok; I would have swarn it was you :-)17:05
SteveA_that is a scary name for the utility17:05
* SteveA_ opposes "local" utilities, as currently understood17:05
srichterI see17:06
SteveA_my point is, an error reporting utility cannot store data persistently17:09
SteveA_(if it is sane)17:09
SteveA_so, its being "local" in terms of persistent in the zodb, is not relevant17:09
SteveA_it could be that you want it for only a particular "site"17:10
SteveA_but i say that's yagni at this point in zope3's development17:10
srichterthat's true, though then a lot of other stuff can be removed17:10
SteveA_we should say "yagni" more often17:15
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srichterJim wants to simplify the local component stuff for 3.2; maybe it's worth brining it up17:17
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SteveA_J1m: has anything happened on multiple ZODBs in zope3 ?17:58
SteveA_can i read about it?17:59
J1mYou can specify multiple databases in your zope.conf file.17:59
SteveA_i had a proposal of a different way to do local utilities17:59
J1mEach is registered as an IDatabase utility.18:00
SteveA_and when i last talked with you about it, you said to talk again about it once the multiple zodbs issue had been handled18:00
J1mThe one named "main" is used by ZopePublication.18:00
SteveA_so, from a global utility, i could get a thread local database connection to "main"18:00
J1mAll of the databases are arranged in a multidatabase18:00
J1mYou can read about multidatabases in some zodb doc tests.18:01
SteveA_can i get the "current connection to 'main' being used by the current thread, or a new connection if there is no current one" ?18:01
J1mNo, there's nothing registering a thread-local database connection.18:01
J1mYou obiosly *could* do so though.18:02
SteveA_so, my hypothetical utility would, at present, need to do its own "get a connection" logic18:02
J1mRight and this has some potential problems.18:02
SteveA_if there were such a "thread-local database connection" facility, the publisher could use it18:02
SteveA_and so could global utilities that want zodb-based state18:02
J1mThe publication you mean.18:02
SteveA_yes, the publication18:03
J1mPossibly, or the publication might set it up.18:03
SteveA_wbat are the potential problems you have in mind?18:03
J1mWell, it's generally not good to mix multiple connections to the same database in a single computation.18:04
SteveA_that's why i'm proposing "get the 'current' connection to that database, if there is one, or a new one otherwise"18:04
SteveA_a component would manage this18:04
J1mFor example, if the utility held regerences to objects, directly or indirectly, you could end up with cross-connection references, which will cause errors.18:05
J1mYes, I agree18:05
SteveA_now, if the 'main' database has a place called 'utility state' for utilities to use, keyed by an id...18:06
J1mIt would be even nicer, in some ways if the utilities could just be persistent themselves.18:06
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SteveA_i disagree18:06
J1mBut that would require a change to utility-lookup semantics.18:07
J1mok :)  I disagree with your disagreement and raise you 2 arguments. ;)18:07
SteveA_i think it is easier to explain and understand to have standard utility lookup, and have code in a utility's implementation to get whatever state it needs18:07
SteveA_whether from the zodb, or from an RDB or from disk...18:07
J1mIt depends on how complicated one made setting up persistent utilities.18:08
J1mI certainly don't object to your approach.18:09
SteveA_okay.  thanks for the chat.  i must get back to my launchpad-in-brazil meetings18:10
J1mare you in Brazil?18:10
SteveA_sao carlos18:10
SteveA_async open source's offices18:10
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srichterJ1m: it would be really nice if we could somehow describe the workflowRelevantData with a schema18:24
srichteralso, I think there is a lot of potential to use schemas for tools as well18:25
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srichterI think one of the simple use cases is:18:25
srichtera tool modifies a workflow-relevant data variable18:26
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J1mWell, xpdl allows wfrd to be described by an XML Schema, for all the good that would do anyone. ;)18:26
srichterLOL :-)18:26
srichtermaybe we could hook just the XML Schema URI up to a Python interface18:27
J1mI would never go through this much trouble myself.18:27
J1mI never bother to specify type information when defining data in xpdl.18:28
J1mPretty much everything is a string.18:28
anguenotBut you may use external references with XPDL18:28
srichterI did, but I did not make use of it, oifc ourse18:28
anguenotI've to check the scope though18:29
srichterJ1m: intersting, I used complex objects in wf relevant data as well18:29
srichteranguenot: what I propose would be optional of course18:29
anguenotI like the idea stephan18:29
srichterthe reason I have this desire is that I wan to autogenerate some screens18:29
J1mYou can do that without dragging xpdl into it.18:30
srichterright now I do a lot of the workitem screens manually by creating a schema and using the functions18:30
srichter(btw, I am brainstorming here; I have no clear idea what I am talking about ;-)18:31
anguenotI have xpdlcore bend to wfmc within Nuxeo's svn waiting for the 3.1 branch :)18:31
srichtergreat; you can check it in Friday evening18:32
anguenotIf you have xpdl files you want to test again you're very welcome18:32
srichterI have the feeling that it will not take us long on Friday with the outstanding bugs18:32
anguenotI'm currently on the #296 :)18:32
srichteryipee! :-)18:32
anguenotI'd like to see the 3.1 as RC :)18:33
anguenothere is the zope.wfmc  using xpdlcore18:33
srichterok, cool18:33
anguenotthe only file I changed is the xpdl.py18:33
anguenotJim's tests are passing18:33
anguenotI see your XML schema stuffs at xpdlcore layer18:34
anguenotgenerating some Python objects for Jim to be happy ;)18:34
anguenotat zope.wfmc layer18:34
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srichteranguenot: have you developed WFs with zope.wfmc already?18:36
anguenotJust focused on xpdl right now18:36
anguenotplaying with Jawe for testing18:36
anguenotbut definitely waiting for it :)18:36
anguenotWe'll have to talk about lxml inclusion as well after Friday18:37
anguenotxpdlcore uses lxml18:37
srichterI would like to share some of my experiences with the code with others that have used it to see whether I got it right18:37
srichterand maybe find better patterns18:37
anguenotof course18:37
srichterI hope faassen will check it in to the core18:38
anguenothope too :)18:38
anguenotfaasen:are you here ? We are talking about your baby ;)18:39
srichterit's already approved and all18:39
srichterI really would like to use it for zope.configuration too, so that we can finally implement removal of directives using XPath18:40
srichteranguenot: btw, do you have any preferred topic for the neckar sprint?18:41
srichter(there will be 22 participants, so we should get a lot done ... yipee)18:42
anguenotworkflows if you're there ;)18:45
anguenotand if you feel like18:45
anguenotKidding I know you will be there18:46
srichterok, I put this on the list18:48
srichterI really want to have proposals for everything we want to do at the sprint18:48
MrTopfbah, how organized ;-)18:48
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srichterI think projekt01 will be interested in that too18:48
srichterMrTopf: ;-) With 3.2 we will return to proposal-based development18:49
MrTopfthat sounds good :-)18:49
anguenotThis is a goog thing18:49
srichter(that reminds me that I need to write a Twisted integration proposal with mkerrins help)18:50
anguenotAnd the twisted world coming on 3.2 !!!18:50
srichteritamar and james have worked hard to accomedate us18:51
srichterespecially, they fixed their FTP server code :-)18:51
anguenotYou in  contact with the twisted folks ?18:51
srichterabout half of the core developers live in the boston area18:51
srichterso I have met with Itamar for the inital integration18:51
srichterbut I hope I can make it to one of their hacker meetings at some point and drain some know-how18:52
anguenotWhat do they think about Zope3 ? I mean do they plan to use Zope3 once Zope3 will work against twisted ?18:53
srichterI dunno; remember that they also have nevow18:53
srichteritamar pushes to include at least more Zope stuff18:53
srichterbut I think awareness on both sides will increase because of the integration18:54
anguenotI guess we need to persuade them as well ;)18:54
srichteritamar recently started to write his own config language, so I really hope we can convince him to use zope.configuration18:54
srichterright :-)18:54
srichterthey are also developing their own object persistence, because the ZODB lacked some features they needed18:55
srichterin general, the twisted people are were Zope 2 was: they develop too much themselves instead of integrating into existing code and improve that18:56
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mgedminwhat is the purpose of ISystemErrorView?19:30
mgedminah, now I get it19:32
mexiKONTo say "A system error has ocurred" :)19:32
mgedminactually, to log the traceback to the SiteError logger19:39
mgedminthat's why there were no tracebacks in schooltool's log file -- our custom error view did not provide this interface19:39
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mexiKONah, right, you meant the *interface* for the view19:40
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faassensrichter, anguenot: I don't understand this idea of checking lxml into the core. What do you do with twisted, is that checked into the core?19:54
faassensrichter, anguenot: I mean, making it a dependency of the core, fine with me. I guess this is like a vendor import or something? I haven't figured out how svn treats those yet.19:55
faassensrichter, anguenot: to make it part of the core we'd need to adjust the build environment so it does the needed pyrex thingies, or decouple it from pyrex.19:55
srichterwith twisted we are gonna do either: a vendor import of a branch created for us or a copy19:55
faassensrichter, anguenot: important to me is that Zope 3 inclusion isn't going to cause a lot of complication for me.19:55
srichterI guess we should do a vendor import here too; but it would be nice, if you could license the code under ZPL 2.1 for us :-)19:56
faassensrichter, anguenot: I release versions of lxml, and then they can be included in Zope 3 and i'm willing to help fiddle with the build scripts and do the occasional resynching, but it's developed in its own svn.19:56
efgeI don't see the point of vendor imports.19:56
efgeIt's just another dependency.19:57
faassensrichter: well, me licensing it ZPL != lxml being half-owned by Zope corporation.19:57
efgeJust say Zope requires lxml, and that's it.19:57
faassensrichter: it's BSD. I find this "we want this ZPL" rather frustrating.19:57
srichterfaassen: I know19:57
srichterwell, it is a matter of not having a million licenses around19:58
faassenthen dump the ZPL and just make it BSD. :)19:58
faassenbe part of the solution. :)19:58
J1mThe advantage of a vendor import is that you can make local changes if you need to.19:59
faassenanyway, basically I'll license it any which way, but I am being difficult as I want to be a guinea pig on this with lxml.19:59
J1mIn general you have a little more control and it makes installation a little easier.19:59
faassenI want to make it easier for Zope 3 to be dependent on non-core Python libraries.19:59
srichterlook, not my decesion, nor am I willing to discuss the issue, because I have no clue19:59
faassenJ1m: you'd be taking on the role of a linux distribution.19:59
J1mI don't know what you mean by that.20:00
faassenJ1m: you'd patch lxml and pass the patch upstream.20:00
J1mIf necessary20:00
J1mI'm mostly after increased convenience for developers.20:00
faassenJ1m: if a distro already has a lxml version, or if upstream says 'no, I don't want this patch', what do you do?20:00
efgeOn an actively developed product like lxml where you could even have checkin rights, you can make local changes directly upstream if you need to :)20:01
J1mIn general, it's a bad idea to depend on a vendor supplied version of things that change frquently.20:01
faassenJ1m: yup, so depending on something needs to be carefully considered.20:01
faassenJ1m: you don't want to depend on something that moves quickly.20:02
J1mYou should on;y make local changes if you are willing to maintain them or if you are confident that you will be able to feed them back.20:02
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J1mBut we do want to depend on lxml, even though it changes quickly, but we want to control that dependence.20:02
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faassenJ1m: why not depend on one fixed version instead?20:03
J1mThat's an option, but the fixed version we want is likely to change from zope version to zope version.20:04
J1mOr from branch to branch.20:04
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faassenJ1m: anyway, I think you're going to make life hard for release management and linux distributors if you maintain your own patches to dependencies. sort of like it's not a good idea to make your own patches in Python itself, right?20:04
J1mFor that reason, I'd tend to have a local version per workspace.20:05
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faassenJ1m: anyway, we'll figure it out when the time comes. :)20:05
J1msounds good :)20:05
J1mI do wish we had a lean mean xml machine in Zope 3 now.20:06
faassenJ1m: but experimentally I'm going to pretend lxml is developed by a non-Zope developer, as I want Zope to be able to adopt those libraries. :)20:06
faassenJ1m: what do you mean with lean and mean?20:06
J1mExperience with selenium confirms my suspicion that xpath would make our test assertions much cleaner.20:07
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J1mI mean simpler, fast, easy to install, non-invasive.20:07
faassenI should just release lxml 1.0 in the coming half year or so. :)20:08
J1mBTW, Benji York has created a mechanize-based add-on to the functional testing framework that makes functional tests selenionic. :)20:09
J1mI expect we'll be releasing it one of these days after we've had a chance to use it for a while and work the kinks out of it.20:10
J1mIt makes functional tests much easier to write.20:10
faassenJ1m: by the way, are you interested in a simple but powerful query engine?20:10
J1mBut it would really benefit from the ability to use xpath in assertions.20:10
J1muh, sure, for what? :)20:11
faassenJ1m: I built one recently on top of the catalog. it's simple as it doesn't attempt to optimize much, but it's pretty powerful in the queries you can construct.20:11
faassenJ1m: for the catalog, sorry.20:11
faassenJ1m: well, multi-catalog queries.20:11
faassenand, or, field equals, inrange, inset, things like that.20:11
faassenI just need to clean it up and write tests for it.20:12
faassenI have tests, but I want to add a few doctests.20:12
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alienoid_ /msg nickserv link alienoid nhfcnyjdfy20:41
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J1mSteveA_, ayt?22:58
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SteveA_hi J1m23:02
J1mI'm just trying out an alternative approach to connection.add for dealing with situations in which we need the _p_oid or database of an object before it has been saved the first time.23:05
J1mI'm doing a transaction.savepoint.23:05
SteveA_i have a break from meetings in 25 minutes23:06
SteveA_i can think about it then23:06
J1mJust thought you'd be interested.23:06
J1mI'll let you know how it went when you come back.23:06
SteveA_ok, cool23:07
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