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| srichter | hey anyone here? | 17:29 |
|---|---|---|
| srichter | ...and willing to discuss some thoughts of mine? | 17:29 |
| benji_york | sure | 17:30 |
| srichter | ok, so one of my goals for 3.2 in to make apidoc a standalone app | 17:30 |
| benji_york | standalone? | 17:30 |
| srichter | the reason being that you want to be able to run APIDOC even when Zope 3 itself does not startup | 17:31 |
| benji_york | ah, ok | 17:31 |
| srichter | basically, right now apidoc is an addon for Zope 3 that requires Zope 3 to start up | 17:31 |
| srichter | also, it does a lot of work when you first look at the code browser, for example | 17:32 |
| srichter | so Jim suggested a long time back to store all of the data in the Data.fs | 17:32 |
| srichter | now the question is: should only the views be stored or the data structure? | 17:33 |
| mgedmin | srichter, YAY! | 17:34 |
| srichter | another option would be to write some fancy version of wget | 17:34 |
| benji_york | hmm, interesting | 17:35 |
| srichter | so I simply do not know the best route to take | 17:35 |
| srichter | comments, ideas, anything? | 17:35 |
| benji_york | I'm a big fan of 80/20, so my initial reaction would be to store the views | 17:36 |
| benji_york | hmm, it might even be interesting to allow generation of html on disc, so no server required, just point your browser at a file:// url | 17:37 |
| hdima | srichter: like pydoc? | 17:37 |
| srichter | hdima: I have not looked at pydoc for a long time, so I dunno | 17:37 |
| srichter | benji_york: right, so you just do a recursive wget and that should be it, right? | 17:37 |
| benji_york | yep (as long as the recursion terminates) :) | 17:38 |
| srichter | I think wget does this automatically | 17:38 |
| srichter | so what would be disadvantages of the wget approach? | 17:39 |
| hdima | pydoc can store pages on disk or you can run it as server with -p PORT option | 17:39 |
| benji_york | -l depth | 17:39 |
| benji_york | --level=depth | 17:39 |
| benji_york | Specify recursion maximum depth level depth. The default maximum depth is 5. | 17:39 |
| srichter | it would be easy to find out what that would be for apidoc | 17:40 |
| benji_york | or if you are confident there are no loops, use --level=inf (for infinite recursion) | 17:42 |
| srichter | I am positive there are loops | 17:42 |
| mgedmin | wget does a graph traversal | 17:43 |
| mgedmin | loops are ok, as long as the graph itself is finite | 17:43 |
| srichter | yes, the graph is finite | 17:44 |
| benji_york | sorry, I mis-spoke, instead of loops, let's say "spirals" :) | 17:44 |
| srichter | I think the tricky part will be to find cases like: objectX/@@index.html versus objectX/index.html versus objectX/ | 17:45 |
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| srichter | so I guess a little validator in Python would be sensible | 17:46 |
| benji_york | yep | 17:47 |
| benji_york | also note that wget isn't installed by default on some systems (*cough* Windows *cough*) | 17:49 |
| srichter | I know, tough luck for them | 17:49 |
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| srichter | they have the choice to: have the live version or use the distributed package | 17:49 |
| srichter | philiKON: we are discssing a way of making apidoc available offline; wget seems to be the way to go | 17:50 |
| benji_york | "the distributed package" being the result of running it on a stock install? | 17:50 |
| srichter | yes | 17:50 |
| benji_york | so, what would it take for a user to update their copy of the static docs? Start the server, run a command. | 17:52 |
| srichter | yes | 17:53 |
| projekt01 | srichter, +1 from me, but would be nice also to use pyDoc style comments, but perhaps this is out of scope for zope. | 17:53 |
| srichter | preferably on Unix: make docs | 17:53 |
| srichter | and: make docs-package | 17:53 |
| srichter | projekt01: what are "pyDoc style comments"? | 17:54 |
| projekt01 | something like: | 17:55 |
| projekt01 | * Construct a new XMLHttp. | 17:55 |
| projekt01 | * @class This is the basic XMLHttp class. | 17:55 |
| projekt01 | * @constructor | 17:55 |
| projekt01 | * @param {string} url URL pointing to the server | 17:55 |
| projekt01 | * @return A new XMLHttp | 17:55 |
| projekt01 | */ | 17:55 |
| srichter | Oh, apidoc would need to support this; this is a different issue | 17:55 |
| srichter | note that I do not think that this syntax is that useful for Zope, since we have interfaces | 17:56 |
| benji_york | agreed | 17:56 |
| srichter | We really should support the two draft proposals from Jim that call for (optional) heavier interface declarations | 17:56 |
| projekt01 | Hm, right, but it would be nice to have this handy java doc format for documentation | 17:57 |
| benji_york | I'm not sure I've ever seen those words use together before: "handy java doc format" :) | 17:59 |
| projekt01 | What's really missing is the documentation of return values, parameters, etc | 17:59 |
| srichter | projekt01: yes, Jim's proposal covers this. | 18:00 |
| projekt01 | Hm, I can't find them | 18:01 |
| srichter | looking... | 18:01 |
| srichter | http://www.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/MethodSpecification | 18:02 |
| srichter | http://www.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/SpecificationUnification | 18:03 |
| projekt01 | srichter, that looks a little bit heavy at the first time, but could be a good way for additional information | 18:04 |
| srichter | but I think it is much better than the @comment thingies, because they cannot be used by the code, whereby MethodSpecifications can be used by the code to verify correct functioning | 18:06 |
| projekt01 | Yup | 18:06 |
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| philiKON | srichter, so,you want to save static HTML? | 18:19 |
| srichter | yeah | 18:19 |
| srichter | whatever pre-eval I am doing it will be static anyways | 18:20 |
| philiKON | fair enough | 18:20 |
| philiKON | would be cool if there was a way to produce reST | 18:20 |
| srichter | so whether I only store static data or final files does not matter | 18:20 |
| srichter | no, it would not :-) | 18:20 |
| srichter | because the useful part about APIdoc is the linkage stuff | 18:20 |
| srichter | I would rather work on a PDF export | 18:21 |
| philiKON | good point | 18:21 |
| srichter | which can be done with some effort using pdftemplate I developed for projekt01 | 18:21 |
| philiKON | or by producing docbook | 18:22 |
| srichter | right | 18:22 |
| philiKON | actually, docbook format is pretty versatile | 18:22 |
| philiKON | and easy to generate (XML) | 18:22 |
| srichter | yeah, probably that will be better | 18:22 |
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| kryptoer | hello all. I plan to build an app with zope and I am wondering if anyone is aware if zope 3 is currently supporting ZEOS and sessions. I don't see any reference to it anywhere in current docs | 20:10 |
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| * genconc is away: gone home | 20:15 | |
| yota | philiKON: ping | 20:20 |
| philiKON | yota, pong | 20:20 |
| yota | fast | 20:20 |
| philiKON | kryptoer, zope3 supports zeo; i haven't tested zope.app.session on any zeo setup yet, but it's supposedly modelled to work with zeo | 20:20 |
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| philiKON | yota, what's up? | 20:21 |
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| yota | philiKON: what is the right tool for write a book ? | 20:24 |
| philiKON | heh | 20:24 |
| philiKON | yota, what kind of book? | 20:24 |
| yota | technical book | 20:24 |
| philiKON | already got a publisher? | 20:24 |
| VladDrac | troff! | 20:24 |
| philiKON | yota, what formats does the publisher accept? | 20:25 |
| VladDrac | (well, that would have been the answer of my former professor, Tanenbaum ;) | 20:25 |
| philiKON | VladDrac, right... | 20:25 |
| yota | no, just an idea | 20:25 |
| philiKON | yota, well, i used docbook | 20:25 |
| philiKON | and liked it a lot | 20:25 |
| kryptoer | Thanks for the feedback philiKON. That helps in my decision making as to where to devout my development effort. Basically want to make sure that when its time to handle scaling that I can workout replication and session failover | 20:25 |
| VladDrac | (he seriously still writes his books using troff) | 20:25 |
| philiKON | VladDrac, amazing... | 20:25 |
| philiKON | VladDrac, so, you were a student of Tanenbaum? | 20:26 |
| VladDrac | on minix probably | 20:26 |
| VladDrac | anyway, food | 20:26 |
| VladDrac | phil: yeah, and I worked as a scientific programmer later on for him (the Globe project) | 20:26 |
| philiKON | kryptoer, in any case, there's enough knowledge in the zope community regarding zeo and sessions so that minor glitches can definitely be sorted out | 20:27 |
| yota | it's my first choice but I don't know how transform docbook with images to pdf and what editor to use | 20:28 |
| philiKON | i use emacs and nxml-mode | 20:28 |
| philiKON | it can validate xml documents according to relaxNG schemas while editing | 20:29 |
| philiKON | very nice | 20:29 |
| yota | ah, emacs addict :) | 20:29 |
| philiKON | yes :) | 20:29 |
| philiKON | if you only need PDF output, i suggest you transform docbook to XSL-FO using the docbook-xsl stylesheets | 20:29 |
| philiKON | and then use a FO processor (e.g. fop) to make it into PDF | 20:29 |
| philiKON | fop is part of apache jakarta, though there haven't been any new releasees for over a year now ;( | 20:30 |
| philiKON | there might be other xsl-fo processors | 20:30 |
| philiKON | the route i went with the book was to produce latex because the publsiher wanted it | 20:31 |
| philiKON | i used the db2latex stylesheet package | 20:31 |
| philiKON | this too is unfortunately not developed anymore | 20:31 |
| philiKON | but a fork, dblatex, is | 20:31 |
| philiKON | (i think i'll switch to that one soon) | 20:31 |
| yota | oki, thx | 20:32 |
| philiKON | np | 20:32 |
| philiKON | lemme know if you have any questions | 20:32 |
| philiKON | the nice thing about docbook is that you have a semantic definition of your text | 20:33 |
| philiKON | you can transform it to anything basically | 20:33 |
| yota | yes, I like very much the concept : separate content and presentation | 20:34 |
| yota | I hate wysiwyg app | 20:35 |
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| yota | philiKON: do you think to upgrade your book for next releases ? | 20:37 |
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| kryptoer | thanks philiKON! I am sure when I meet those crossroads that I will be more vocal. Thanks Again! | 20:41 |
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| philiKON | yota, at least i have plans to keep it up to date; we'll see about publishing. maybe a second edition for zope 3.2 or 3.3, but i'm not the one to decide that | 20:50 |
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| fdrake | srichter, you there? | 21:24 |
| srichter | fdrake: yes | 21:25 |
| srichter | good to see you here | 21:25 |
| fdrake | hey | 21:25 |
| fdrake | i just made changes to zpkg :-) | 21:25 |
| fdrake | are you planning to update your checkout of zpkg before making another Z3 release? | 21:26 |
| srichter | yes :-) | 21:26 |
| srichter | I was just about to ask you about it :-) | 21:26 |
| fdrake | then I'll probably need to change some things in the Z3 tree ;-) | 21:26 |
| srichter | ok | 21:26 |
| fdrake | the goal is to make the distribution-building do less, so we can eventually use zpkg for checkout-based builds as well | 21:27 |
| srichter | cool | 21:27 |
| fdrake | this change makes public include files get handled in the distutils phase | 21:28 |
| srichter | I am trying to bring the SchoolTool community to zpkgtools as well | 21:28 |
| fdrake | and causes the component-based approach to produce fewer surprises | 21:28 |
| fdrake | ah | 21:28 |
| fdrake | be sure to file any issues that arise in the Z3d collector | 21:28 |
| srichter | yes | 21:28 |
| fdrake | the twisted folks still have some issue w/ zpkg, I think | 21:29 |
| srichter | we have some other refactoring to do before that | 21:29 |
| fdrake | we == SchoolTool? | 21:29 |
| srichter | yeah | 21:29 |
| fdrake | ok, i'll take a look at using zpkg for Z3.1 now | 21:30 |
| srichter | thanks | 21:30 |
| fdrake | someone needs to run the zpkg tests on Windows, BTW :-) | 21:30 |
| fdrake | my Windows-fu isn't sufficient right now | 21:30 |
| srichter | he he | 21:30 |
| fdrake | well, it doesn't work out of the box now | 21:48 |
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| fdrake | hmm; the required changes go back to the ZODB packages as well :-( | 21:52 |
| srichter | oy | 21:54 |
| fdrake | i'll ask Tim how he wants to deal with them; he's generally approved of the changes for the ZODB source tree, but I'm not done with everything that'll be needed there | 21:54 |
| srichter | ohm well, better do it now than later | 21:54 |
| fdrake | might be easier to wait, though; i don't know how much time I'll have for this this week :-( | 21:55 |
| fdrake | if you want to do that, just don't pick up the last zpkg update from today | 21:55 |
| fdrake | that way this doesn't interfere with the release schedule, and the changes can be backported for 3.1.1 | 21:56 |
| srichter | ok, I have not updated yet | 21:56 |
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| fdrake | we'll see how far I can get | 21:58 |
| srichter | philiKON: are you there? | 22:23 |
| srichter | philiKON: benji_york: The problem with the wget approach is that we cannot use search functions | 22:30 |
| benji_york | hmm | 22:33 |
| benji_york | grep? :) | 22:33 |
| benji_york | instead of wget, could we have a minimal zope just with the "captured" apidoc info? | 22:34 |
| benji_york | perhaps with its own ZODB? | 22:36 |
| srichter | right this is what Jim suggested | 22:40 |
| srichter | maybe we can have a dumbed down version of the search | 22:40 |
| srichter | that is based on JS | 22:40 |
| benji_york | or, we could replace the search facility in the static copy with a simple-minded javascript that searches an html index | 22:40 |
| benji_york | hey, that was my idea :) | 22:41 |
| srichter | basically you have a list of say all interfaces and a JS simply hides them | 22:41 |
| benji_york | yep | 22:41 |
| srichter | :-) | 22:41 |
| srichter | I guess that would be easier | 22:41 |
| benji_york | I like the idea. | 22:41 |
| srichter | I have to write some custom views anyways, since I do not wnat to show the preferences on the static version either | 22:42 |
| benji_york | ah, yep | 22:42 |
| srichter | ok, someone agrees, this is good | 22:42 |
| benji_york | :) | 22:42 |
| srichter | I also need to make the menu JS based | 22:42 |
| srichter | otherwise it is downloading all the menu states | 22:42 |
| benji_york | hmm, it would be nice if we could compile a CHM of the docs... I'd really like that. | 22:43 |
| benji_york | (then no search would be needed) | 22:43 |
| srichter | CHM? | 22:43 |
| benji_york | oh... that's windows HTML based help format, Python docs come as CHM now | 22:43 |
| benji_york | I like them so much I use xCHM on my linux boxes to view them | 22:44 |
| srichter | interesting, though this would require rewriting a lot of the templates | 22:45 |
| benji_york | why do you say that? (not that I know; one way or the other) | 22:45 |
| srichter | it was more a question than a statement, sorry | 22:46 |
| benji_york | oh, I don't know, but it appears to be fairly easy. The Python CHM is just a straight rip of the python HTML docs | 22:47 |
| srichter | cool | 22:48 |
| d2m | CHM is HTML pages compiled into 1 big binary file, with indexes attached | 22:48 |
| srichter | I see | 22:48 |
| d2m | you could as well python pickle a site and use it through a frontend | 22:49 |
| benji_york | I just asked Tim and Fred (they did the original CHM for python).. | 22:49 |
| projekt01 | fdrake, what is to do, to get zpkg work on windows? | 22:49 |
| benji_york | they said that building the CHM-specific index took a bit of work, but other than that the HTML was a stright copy | 22:50 |
| srichter | ok | 22:50 |
| benji_york | and since they already wrote the indexer, we could probably reuse it | 22:50 |
| srichter | there is a pyCHM project out there | 22:50 |
| benji_york | I think that's more about reading CHMs, not writing them | 22:51 |
| srichter | ah, ok | 22:52 |
| srichter | can we create the CHM file on Linux as well? | 22:52 |
| benji_york | you have to use Microsoft's CHM compiler (on Windows) | 22:54 |
| srichter | :-( | 22:54 |
| benji_york | I can help if need be | 22:54 |
| fdrake | projekt01, you mean run the tests? | 22:54 |
| srichter | I wonder whether it will run under Wine? | 22:54 |
| benji_york | ??? | 22:55 |
| projekt01 | fdrake, no build the .exe | 22:55 |
| srichter | benji_york: whether the CHM compiler will run using wine | 22:56 |
| projekt01 | fdrake, I would like to use the zpkg for our Tiks framework, but I like to do it on a windows box | 22:57 |
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| benji_york | srichter, right. I don't know if it'll run. I would think so, because it's not a complex piece of software. | 22:59 |
| benji_york | well, I have to go. I'll be back later. | 22:59 |
| projekt01 | fdrake, right now I use BitRock for building the installer.exe and I have to add the packages by hand. | 22:59 |
| projekt01 | fdrake, I think this could be done by zpkg, right? | 23:00 |
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| fdrake | projekt01, by .exe, do you mean the windows installed | 23:05 |
| fdrake | s/installed/installer/ | 23:05 |
| projekt01 | yes | 23:05 |
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| projekt01 | But the important part is to "package" the source for the installer | 23:06 |
| fdrake | zpkg will generate a tarball; that's a "normal" distutils package | 23:06 |
| fdrake | you can then run "python2.4 setup.py bdist_wininst" in an unpacked installer | 23:06 |
| fdrake | i don't know what bitrock is | 23:07 |
| fdrake | (no, I'm not a Windows user!) | 23:07 |
| projekt01 | It's just a cross plattform installer where can build the installer for all plattforms. | 23:07 |
| fdrake | zpkg collects all the metadata that's needed to drive distutils | 23:07 |
| fdrake | then what you need is a distutils command like bdist_bitrock | 23:08 |
| philiKON | hi fdrake | 23:08 |
| fdrake | hey, philiKON ! | 23:08 |
| fdrake | testRunIgnoresParentSignals is evil :-( | 23:08 |
| philiKON | srichter, re: wget on docs | 23:09 |
| philiKON | srichter, well, i thought the point of off-line docs was that they'd be searchable on the filesystem?!? | 23:09 |
| fdrake | philiKON, we'd get that with CHM files, at least if xCHM is any good | 23:10 |
| fdrake | it's been over a year since I looked at it though | 23:10 |
| philiKON | yup; CHM is just one format, though. point is, if we have it in some filesystem format (docbook, HTML, CHM, PDF. etc), people can search it with their tools | 23:11 |
| fdrake | right | 23:11 |
| fdrake | and HTML is the easiest to scrape out :-) | 23:11 |
| philiKON | well | 23:11 |
| philiKON | i hate grepping html | 23:11 |
| fdrake | but it can be converted to other things, like CHM | 23:11 |
| fdrake | it's an easy way to get the docs out of Zope | 23:12 |
| srichter | KDE has a good CHM viewer | 23:12 |
| philiKON | i would volunteer to write docbook views for apidoc | 23:12 |
| fdrake | something more structured would be ideal, I think | 23:12 |
| philiKON | at least to help with them | 23:12 |
| fdrake | ooh, that would be nice | 23:12 |
| fdrake | i'll contribute a few pointy brackets :-) | 23:12 |
| philiKON | :) | 23:12 |
| srichter | philiKON: I take you up on that | 23:13 |
| projekt01 | fdrake, do you know what's exactly missing for running zpgk on windows? | 23:13 |
| srichter | I will definitely do an HTML export too | 23:13 |
| philiKON | i thought the point about the off-line tools were a) people can use their favourite tools to search and view (no browser) and b) people don't have to run a Zope3 instance | 23:13 |
| philiKON | of course, point b) will also take the interactivity of apidoc away | 23:13 |
| philiKON | meaning, you've registered your own adapter, it will show up in apidoc | 23:14 |
| fdrake | projekt01, no; did you have troubles? | 23:14 |
| philiKON | but not in the static docs unless you regenerate the docs | 23:14 |
| projekt01 | Yes, popen doesn't work | 23:14 |
| philiKON | of course, this way apidoc can become a pretty good API dcoumentation generation facility... :) | 23:14 |
| srichter | I am only going for point (b) at this stage | 23:14 |
| fdrake | ah | 23:14 |
| srichter | this was the use case brought to me most | 23:14 |
| philiKON | right | 23:14 |
| philiKON | i have no idea how to view CHM on mac | 23:15 |
| philiKON | is CHM pure XML or is it zipped/processed in some other way? | 23:15 |
| srichter | http://chmox.sourceforge.net/ | 23:15 |
| philiKON | cool, thanks :) | 23:16 |
| * philiKON should've googled, of course | 23:16 | |
| projekt01 | fdrake, srichter, I think Thomas from SchoolTools reported this also some time ago, I'm not sure if he fixed it in his own workspace. Perhaps srichter knows more about this issue? | 23:16 |
| srichter | which issue? | 23:17 |
| projekt01 | srichter, zpkg on windows | 23:17 |
| fdrake | projekt01, ok, there's a calll to os.spawnlp() that doesn't appear to be supported on Windows; the popen() call is likely in the implementation of that | 23:17 |
| fdrake | i'll have to look into it a bit more | 23:18 |
| projekt01 | py 2.4.1 has a new popen implementation ;-) | 23:18 |
| srichter | I dunno anything about Tom having troubles :-) | 23:18 |
| srichter | wow, wget runs since more than 1 hour now | 23:19 |
| fdrake | projekt01, what Python are you using? | 23:19 |
| srichter | mainly getting menu entries | 23:19 |
| fdrake | i could use the tarfile module, but that doesn't deal with compression | 23:19 |
| projekt01 | fdrake, now 2.4.1, But the time I tried I used 2.3.5 | 23:19 |
| srichter | philiKON: is it possible to get a fully expanded tree with zope.app.tree at once? | 23:19 |
| fdrake | the compression would be available on Windows, but not necessarily on Unix | 23:19 |
| gintas | projekt01, which Tom from SchoolTool did you mean? | 23:20 |
| fdrake | projekt01, try again w/ 2.4.1 then :-) | 23:20 |
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| projekt01 | gintas, I'm not sure but I think his name is Thomas or not? | 23:21 |
| projekt01 | fdrake, Ok will try | 23:21 |
| gintas | well, we have Tom von Schwerdtner and Tom Hoffman | 23:22 |
| fdrake | if it still doesn't work, post an issue on the Z3d collector | 23:22 |
| gintas | for some reason I think you have Marius in mind | 23:22 |
| * srichter just discovered his Aertze MP3 CD... I am in a good mood now :-) | 23:22 | |
| projekt01 | gintas, Tom Hoffman | 23:22 |
| gintas | ok | 23:23 |
| projekt01 | See, http://lists.schooltool.org/pipermail/schooltool-dev.mbox/schooltool-dev.mbox and search for "The Zope3 Windows installer is indeed built by disutils | 23:23 |
| projekt01 | " | 23:23 |
| philiKON | srichter, ew, i don't remember | 23:24 |
| philiKON | srichter, there might be something like expandAllNodes...? | 23:24 |
| philiKON | but i don't think i ever had a use case; i actually had the use case than i didn't want to load all nodes to construct the tree (tree might come from SQL, for example) | 23:25 |
| srichter | right | 23:26 |
| srichter | I want it for the static documentation | 23:26 |
| srichter | I want to show the entire tree | 23:26 |
| projekt01 | srichter, here's a better link about the problem from Tom, http://lists.schooltool.org/pipermail/schooltool-dev/2005-February/000034.html | 23:26 |
| srichter | and use JS to hide elements | 23:26 |
| philiKON | srichter, you could probably easy enhance it to have that functionality | 23:27 |
| philiKON | anyway, i'm out | 23:27 |
| philiKON | have a good night | 23:27 |
| srichter | see ya | 23:27 |
| srichter | bye | 23:27 |
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| VladDrac | emjay | 23:35 |
| wiggy | vladders | 23:50 |
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| VladDrac | wiggel | 23:54 |
| projekt01 | fdrake, ayt? | 23:54 |
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