IRC log of #zope3-dev for Thursday, 2005-08-11

benji_yorkprojekt01, fdrake has left the channel, if it's important, I can ask him to come back00:04
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projekt01benji_york, thanks no that's ok. just wrote a mail to him, found a bug in zpkg.00:07
srichterbenji_york: I thought browser.get() would take by default the name?00:10
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benji_yorksrichter, I just repliled to your message  :)00:14
projekt01srichter, did you wrote a document about the zpkg release process for 3.1? Are there any docs about which *.map to use?00:14
srichterprojekt01: yes, see MakingARelease00:15
projekt01srichter, thanks a lot, found it at:
srichterthat's it00:18
srichterI keep this document up-to-date, since I use it to make releases00:18
srichternote that Fred said that the current zpkgtools is broken with the Zope 3.1 release00:19
srichteryou have to ask him00:19
srichterhe made some changes today00:20
srichterbenji_york: maybe ask Fred to come online again to talk to Roger ;-)00:20
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srichterbenji_york: ok, I like Gary's answer, but not yours, so I give up; I just do not have enough energy today ;-)00:22
projekt01Hi fdrake, srichter told that zpkg is broken with 3.100:23
fdrakethe zpkg trunk, yes00:23
fdrakei have a patch for 3.1 already00:23
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fdrakebut I'm not entirely ready to commit since it impacts packages from the ZODB project00:24
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fdrakedon't use the zpkg trunk for 3.1; use two zpkg changesets back00:24
fdrake(for now)00:24
srichterwill the two changesets back work on Windows?00:25
projekt01what's that, changeset?00:25
srichterwhat do you need roger to test there? Run tests and build the TAR ball?00:25
srichterprojekt01: two revisions back00:25
fdrakefor Windows, get the trunk and undo the changeset before the last  :-)00:25
projekt01Ah, you mean the zpkg checkout00:26
projekt01Or the z3 trunk?00:26
srichterzpkgtools checkout00:26
projekt01I think I have a different issue where I first have to solve.00:26
projekt01could not load from svn:// (exit code 1)00:26
fdrakei don't think the branch will let me commit to the ZODB packages any more than the trunk will00:26
projekt01Or is this what you mean?00:26
srichterfdrake: nope00:27
srichterthe disadvantage of svn:externals00:27
fdrakeprojekt01, you should use svn://
projekt01That was not me, this is called from a *.map I guess00:28
fdrakeah; remove the support map from your config  :-)00:28
fdrakethat's optional now; zpkg will use it's own sources if no entry is configured for zpkgsetup00:29
fdrakethat change to the map file is safe to commit00:29
fdrakesrichter, when is the Zope-3.1c2 release scheduled?00:30
projekt01Ok, but then I get the following error00:30
projekt01could not load from svn:// (exit code 1)00:30
fdrakeremove the X3; jim changed some things00:30
srichterfdrake: I dunno :-) I'll shoot for the weekend00:30
fdrakeare you using a private .map file?00:30
fdrakeor releases/
fdrakei think I need to release zpkg so we can say "use this version"00:31
projekt01I use a zpkg.conf in my users home like described in the quickstart.txt of zpkg00:32
fdrakeJim doesn't like that; I need to update that doc00:32
fdrakeuse:  "zpkg -C releases/Zope.cfg -cav 3.1.0cX Zope"00:33
fdrakethat'll be getting simpler, too, but I don't want to move too fast00:33
projekt01IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'releases/Zope.cfg'00:34
projekt01if I try: python zpkg -C releases/Zope.cfg -cav 3.1.0cX Zope00:34
fdrakei just sprung a set of coming changes on Tim today; I need to finish those so he can proceed00:34
fdrakeis this from the top of the checkout00:34
projekt01Ah, no, Ok I have to call this in the trunk checkout.00:35
fdrake(the Zope-3.1 checkout)00:35
fdrakefor the relative path00:35
fdrakeyou can adjust that however you want; paths are resolved relative to where they're expressed00:36
projekt01I get the same error:00:37
projekt01could not load from svn:// (exit code 1)00:37
fdrakejust a sec...00:38
projekt01Where do I get this path? Is there a wrong path from a *.map loaded?00:38
fdrakeupdate Zope-3.1 and try again with the cmd line i gave you00:41
fdrakethe "-C" must be upper case00:42
projekt01Ok, Ah, you mean the branch Zope3-1, I have to checkout first, will take a moment.00:44
fdrakeyes, the branch, since that's the source of the next release  :-)00:44
fdrakewe can forward-port once we're done playing around00:44
projekt01Yes, that's Ok, I just like to bring zpkg up and running on windows, no need to make a release now.00:45
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fdrakethat should avoid the need for the quoting fix as well, since the files will be pulled from the checkout00:46
fdrakeIOW, you should be able to use zpkg revision 37845, no changes00:48
projekt01I just checked out revision 37851 from zpkg. Is this Ok or should I set it back to 3784500:50
projekt01I think the "windows cmd quote fix" is done in the revision 3785000:51
fdrakeback up to 37845; you don't want the Includes/ directory change00:51
fdrakeyou shouldn't need the quoting fix since you'll be avoiding cvs/svn now00:51
fdrakewhich speeds things up a lot  :-)00:52
projekt01Ok, done, the branch is still downloading00:52
fdrakearen't networks great?00:53
fdrakewhere are you?00:53
projekt01Yeah, in switzerland, Zug00:53
fdrakeso your connection is distinctly worse than mine today  :-)00:55
projekt01btw, is it normal that after changing the external (like ZODB etc) in subversion, that I get ZODB.OLD everytime00:56
fdrakeit appears to be; I get those as well00:56
projekt01That's wired. I get the following error: but the releases folder exist.01:00
projekt01IOError: [Errno 2] no such file or directory: '\\..\\releases\\Zope'01:00
projekt01is this another quoting problem?01:00
srichterfrom where do you execute what?01:01
projekt01from the root where the /src is a child of01:02
srichterwhat command do you run?01:02
projekt01But doesn't work in the src folder too01:02
projekt01python D:\projektDemo\zpkgtools\bin\zpkg -C releases/Zope.cfg -cav 3.1.0cX Zope01:02
srichtermmh, loos like a bug01:02
fdrakei run from the parent of src01:02
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fdrakelooks like a WIndows-compatibility bug01:03
projekt01Yes the root is the parent of the src01:03
benji_yorkprojekt01, are you typing the double backslashes?01:03
benji_yorkoh, is that a repr of a string01:03
fdrakeIOW, a Windows bug01:03
benji_yorkoh, ok01:03
projekt01btw, I didn't set zpkg as a global script01:04
projekt01I guess it's ok, or is it used somewhere else01:05
fdrakethat shouldn't matter01:05
fdrakei wonder if you need this change:
fdrakeit's a part of the Includes/ removal, but may be relevant01:07
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fdrakeat least on Windows01:07
fdrakeare and utilities/ supposed to be installed on any platform?01:11
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projekt01Yes, they are on my checkout01:12
projekt01I'll try to apply the patch01:13
fdrakethey're marked as scripts in the, but are they useful?01:13 seems not, given that the instance contains runzope/zopectl01:13
fdrake(don't know about Windows, though)01:13
projekt01I only use "python" for starting zope during development on my win box, I never used something else01:15
fdrakewhat do you use for production?01:15
projekt01python z3.py01:16
fdrake(I don't want to remove or utilities/, I just don't want to install them if they're not used that way)01:16
fdrakeI'm not sure what the Windows service story is right now; I know for a recent project, we install and run as a service.01:17
fdrakeNot sure how much of that is part of the stock Zope 3 yet, though.01:17
projekt01Ah, I don't use the distributed zope. I always build zope with msvc ++ 7.0 with py 2.4.1 by myself, also for production01:18
fdrakedo you use an installer for Windows platforms?01:18
projekt01I update to the latest zpkg version which includes the fix and get the following error01:19
projekt01could not load from svn:// (exit code 1)01:19
projekt01Was that wrong  should I only apply the patch to the version 37845?01:19
fdrakei think that's right01:21
projekt01Hm, I double checked the svn url. The location svn:// exists.01:21
fdrakei wonder why it's looking there01:22
projekt01Where does this url came from?01:22
projekt01Yes me too01:22
fdrakethere's some code in zpkg that tries to "prefer" svn:/cvs: URLs; I think that was a mistake, though it fit the original requirements01:23
fdrakeperhaps it's time to rip that out as well01:23
fdrakeunfortunately, that means reading through the tests again and seeing what has to change there01:23
fdrakeother than what just breaks01:24
projekt01the test of zpkg are running well on my win box01:24
fdrakethat's a good start, but means it needs more tests  :-(01:25
fdrake(not surprising really)01:25
projekt01Ok, I'm not in hurry. Take your time, you can drop me a note if I should test it again01:25
projekt01If this is fine with you.01:25
fdrakeok, i'll see what I can get done over the next day01:25
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projekt01I think we are ready to make a release in a month or so.01:26
fdrakeok, my target's Zope 3.1.0 if possible, so I think you'll be set01:28
fdrakeTim likes to build his own tarball for the Windows installer, so the Windows testing will get done before long01:29
projekt01Oh, cool01:29
philiKONfdrake, i presume your changes to zpkg will also effect the X3.0 branch. will there be a note as to what needs to be changed in the package configuration?01:30
projekt01fdrake, let me know if I can test or help something01:30
fdrakepresumably that, or I'll just change things  :-)01:30
fdrakeprojekt01, thanks!01:30
philiKONfdrake, ok01:31
projekt01fdrake, thanks a lot to you!01:31
fdrakehmm, building a Zope-3.1c2 release from the branch, I don't end up using any svn URLs01:31
fdrakeso i'm really confused about what's happening01:31
fdrakei'll go rip some code out  :-)01:32
fdrakethat should be therapeutic, at least01:32
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philiKON+1 to resource maps being gone... it took me two releases to finally understand how zpkg works :)01:38
philiKONsrichter, are you using the -k switch of wget?01:42
srichterno, but this did not matter01:44
philiKONit should matter for links though01:45
srichterhow so?01:45
philiKONwith the -k switch, wget postprocesses html files and changes all links so that they work from the filesystem01:46
fdrakephiliKON, maps aren't gone, but no longer require a separate file01:46
philiKONfdrake, that's what i meant01:46
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philiKONfdrake, the number of files required for a zpkg setup was (probably still is) just too high01:46
srichterI thought it worked otherwise too01:46
srichterI think I checked this01:46
philiKONwget leaves the html pagees intact otherwise01:47
srichterI see01:47
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philiKONthe -p switch is also useful01:48
philiKONit fetches page requisites01:48
philiKONsuch as CSS01:48
philiKONand JS01:48
srichterphiliKON: btw, I think Node.expand() does not behave correctly01:48
fdrakephiliKON, there were definately too many files01:48
philiKONsrichter, :(01:48
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srichterwhen I say Node.expand(True), the _expanded_noeds attribute does not get updated01:48
srichterbut it should01:48
fdrakethe current practice is moving to avoid centralized maps so everything can be versioned as a unit01:49
fdrakeexcept zpkg itself, which remains versionless  :-(01:49
philiKONwould be cool if there was a zpkg release01:49
fdrakethat will be fixed01:49
philiKONat some point i wanna try running zope inside an egg01:50
philiKONsrichter, if you can't fix it, file a bug and assign it to me; i'll have a look next week01:52
philiKONgood night all01:52
fdrakephiliKON, me too!  I wanna run with the dependencies (esp. ZODB) in separate eggs01:52
philiKONfdrake, yes, that'd be cool01:52
philiKONor, even, with zope.interface, zope.testing etc. in eggs01:52
philiKONbe very modular01:52
philiKONlike debian does it with the zope3-lib package and python24-zopeinterface etc. already01:53
fdrakeyes, those as well01:57
fdrakei'm more concerned about ZODB for that since it's handled in a completely separate tree, and we keep ending up with *.OLD turds01:58
fdrakethat doesn't seem to happen as much for zope.testing, and not at all for zope.interface (since it's not an external)01:58
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fdrakeok, the zpkg quick start has been updated to better reflect the current state; the online version is up to date as well02:12
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projekt01fdrake, thanks that helps to understand it better.03:00
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bob2is fp known to be broken in the trunk?03:27
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bob2I wish all the ECM demos weren't flash03:57
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bob2er, FTP05:19
srichterno, it should work05:20
srichtergood night05:20
bob2ls: Fatal error: 500 Internal error: AttributeError: 'FTPRequest' object attribute '__provides__' is read-only05:21
bob2I guess I should file a bug05:21
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faassenwhat's the way in Zope 3 to find out where ones INSTANCE_HOME is? or specifically, I want to get to the var directory15:50
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projekt01anguenot, ayt?16:06
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philiKONfaassen, os.environ['INSTANCE_HOME'] ?16:11
* genconc is back16:16
anguenotprojekt01: hi16:28
projekt01hi, I have a question about the ecm wfmc state.16:28
projekt01What can we use right now?16:28
anguenotI focused right now on xpdlcore / zope.wfmc16:29
projekt01the migration from xpdlcore to z3, right?16:29
anguenotthe ecm part is proto16:29
anguenotthis you can use together now16:30
projekt01Is it working? I think with the buddy demo?16:31
anguenotYeah it works.16:31
anguenotthe tests from the zope.wfmc are passing16:31
anguenotnow I'm waiting for the lxml proposal to be accepted to go further on the ecm layer16:32
projekt01Does it provide a UI part for see the transitions? or do you call it workItems?16:32
anguenotThe ecm layer will16:32
anguenotthe ecm layer will be document oriented16:32
anguenothopefuly :)16:32
projekt01You mean with "ecm layer" a layer for a skin?16:32
anguenotno non16:33
anguenotthe ecm layer as in xpdlcore / zope.wfmc / ecmworkflow16:33
projekt01Ah, you mean the concept16:33
projekt01I was reading the doc on the z3lab. In the first part you describe the integration for adding content types as a process.16:34
anguenotit's a possiblity16:34
anguenotThe process can create the content object right16:35
anguenotdid you check the draft ?16:35
projekt01Should this not be the standard?16:35
anguenotstandard ?16:35
projekt01create content types with a own process16:36
anguenotit's a possiblity16:36
anguenotanother one is firing the process event based16:36
anguenotafter the creation16:36
anguenotbut then the process doesn't control the creation16:36
anguenotIt's a possiblity16:37
anguenotIf yo wanna drop comment / questions about it I would be very happy16:37
projekt01I would like to see that all is process oriented, also the creation of a content type.16:37
anguenotIt's pretty easy I think16:38
projekt01Yes, but I have to get into the project first. I don't have a clear vision on this right now.16:38
anguenotYou register a callbable as a factory16:38
anguenotcallable sorry16:38
projekt01I will do some prototyping now.16:38
projekt01Yes I was thinking about this like you described in the draft16:39
anguenotwhy don't you want to do it with us in Z3/ECM ?16:39
anguenotJust ask for a svn account ;)16:39
projekt01That's not a problem to do it with the Z3/ECM. I have just a time line till 4 weeks where I need a working prototype.16:40
anguenotI might work with you on this16:41
projekt01I think about a small prototype just for fins out what all is needed and how it's fit together.16:41
anguenotThis is there for this16:41
projekt01Cool, I think next week I know how all this works16:41
projekt01fins out/find out16:42
anguenotI'll be glad to work with you on this16:42
projekt01Are working on this next week?16:42
anguenotI can yeah16:42
projekt01Cool, let's do it. Can you open a commit access for me?16:43
anguenotCan you mail me for this ?16:43
projekt01Ok, will do16:43
anguenotcool !16:43
projekt01What are the next steps in the project?16:44
anguenotecmworkflow ? or Zope3/ECM ?16:44
projekt01Hm, both16:44
projekt01I think Zope3/ECM needs the Ok for lxml? right?16:45
anguenotat least for the workflow sub-project16:45
anguenotI'm stuck with the zope.wfmc within the z3lab repo otherweise16:45
anguenotwhich is bad :(16:45
projekt01But I saw you moved the wmfc package to the z3lab repos for a initial integration? right?16:46
projekt01Can we move this to a z3 branch?16:46
anguenotwe could16:46
anguenotWas just waiting for the lxml acceptance16:46
anguenototherweise it's useless16:46
projekt01If we start a branch, this will show the needs of lxml for z316:47
anguenotOk I can do this today or tomorrow16:47
anguenotIf you think it will help ;)16:47
projekt01Cool, if we don't get the aceptance, is it possible to do it with antoher xml parser?16:47
anguenotyeah we could16:48
anguenotbut lxml rocks I mean16:48
anguenotbut yeah it would16:48
anguenotbe possible16:48
projekt01I think this will show that we have a clear vision and the z3lab is participating on z3 if it's useful16:48
anguenotI think this point was clear for a while, wasn't it ?16:49
anguenotfor the z3lab participation16:49
projekt01It think this is a important part (perhaps also helps for build a stronger commitment from the different projects) and shows that we all woring more or less on the same16:49
projekt01Yes it is clear, but that was just a statement nothing happens at all, except your and Jean Marc's work16:51
projekt01I think its important that the people see that something happens now.16:51
projekt01Ok, I try to setup all for starting. Do you have some hints about the installation? Which package do I need? I guess the z3 trunk is Ok? right?16:54
anguenotz3 trunk16:54
anguenotxpdlcore within src16:54
anguenotand you go16:54
projekt01zope.wmfc from the z3 trunk?16:55
anguenotfrom z3lab repo16:55
projekt01Ok, I give you a feed back if it's setup.16:56
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SteveAsrichter: when's the next zope3 bug day?  i'm going to be on vacation for 1.5 weeks starting next week, so if something needs to be arranged during that time, i need to know now.17:30
srichterno, not that soon17:31
srichterI am not planning to do anything before beginning of September17:31
SteveAokay, fine17:31
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_projekt01anguenot, ayt?18:04
anguenot_projeckt01: yop18:04
_projekt01We really need a release for lxml, It's horrible to build it on windows!18:04
anguenotIt's horrible to work on windows :)18:05
srichter_projekt01: ST decided to go with your pagelet code, so I'll have a review of the implementation soon :-)18:05
_projekt01I can do a review next week, perhaps they have to provide ILocation18:06
_projekt01anguenot, ;-)18:06
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anguenot_projekt01: BTW, for the windows release Martijn posted couple of days ago on the lxml-dev list18:07
anguenot_projekt01: looking for people to help regarding this18:08
_projekt01Ok, will do, just saw the mailinglist18:09
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_projekt01faassen, do you have any hints about installing lxml on a windows box? Or can you at least say if it's possible?18:17
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fdrakei'm going to make some packaging changes to ZODB20:44
fdrakeTim's going to hold off knitting in the new version until I've got the corresponding Zope 3 changes done20:44
fdrakeit's all packaging stuff20:44
fdrakeZODB will be using zpkg for ALL builds, including building the checkout itself20:45
fdrakedone, in case anyone wants to play with the ZODB trunk directly20:46
srichterdoes this mean you have to have zpkgtools to compile ZODB and thus Zope 3?20:46
fdrakethe is a lot simpler20:46
srichter(in this case I would like an external in in Zope 3)20:46
fdrakeit only needs zpkgsetup, which is included in the checkout via an external20:46
fdrakean external for what in Zope 3?20:47
srichtercool, zpkgsetup is an external, so fine20:47
fdrakein ZODB, yes20:47
fdrakeit's not in Zope 3 yet20:47
fdrakei expect it'll be done the same way20:48
fdrakethe new ZODB names a lot of specific things zpkg should look like; we want to avoid that for Zope 3 itself20:48
fdrakeso it's not so hard to work with the checkout20:49
fdrake(you don't want to have to munge the to add packages!)20:49
fdrakeactually, you wouldn't need to, unless you had C extensions or the like20:52
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MJAssumption: utilities registered by name can discover the names by which they are registered through the IRegistered interface..21:45
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MJSo if I can find IFoo utilities with queryUtility(IFoo, 'bar', context)21:47
MJThen the returned IFoo utility should find 'bar' in IRegistered(self).registrations()?21:48
MJOops. That method returns objects21:49
MJSo it can grep it's own __name__ then?21:50
MJWhat I am trying to do:21:50
MJI have the keys that are distinguishable by their id and the domain in which they have meaning21:51
MJSo you can get a key with a domain name and a key id21:51
MJA domain is a simple mapping21:51
MJSo domain['id'] is a key21:52
MJAt the moment I have a top-level utility (keydomains) that is a mapping of domains.21:52
MJSo keydomains['domain']['id'] gets you a key.21:53
MJThe one problem I have is that keys must have a domain attribute so's you can always recreate the key with only a domain and id value.21:54
MJSo keys returned from keydomains['domain']['id'] need to have their domains attr set to 'domain'.21:55
MJThat's easy in the keydomains utility scenario.21:55
MJBut I am thinking that the keydomains object is in fact redundant if I make the domains themselves local utilities registered under their domain name.21:56
MJSo when you get your domain through queryUtility using the domain interface and the domain name, the returned object should know how you found it in the first place.21:58
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MJHmm, as local utilities always have a __name__, that's the name they are registered by22:10
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fdrakeMJ: no, 'fraid not: that's the name of the object in it's container22:11
fdrakelast I looked, the registration machinery was so bloody baroque I decided it wasn't worth understanding22:12
MJjust found that too22:18
MJThe IRegistered interface gives me a sequence of registrations22:18
fdrakeif that's working these days, then that's likely as good as it gets22:19
MJAnd those tell me by what name they are registered22:19
fdrakeuntil we re-do the whole bloody things22:19
MJI think I'll stick with my top-level keydomains mapping maybe22:19
MJNot doing that would make domains more flexible22:20
MJAnd reusable between different sites as they can be looked up higher up22:20
MJDurn this...22:21
MJ2 evils to choose from then..22:22
MJIs there any way I can force the use of a name when a domain gets registered in the ZMI?22:23
fdrakei don't think so22:24
MJThen I'll have to stick with my current setup as I fear that things will get too complicated for site managers otherwise.22:26
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* MJ muses on this some more22:27
MJOr I'll have to provide the manager with UI to support the most common cases...22:27
MJAnd leave the options open for complex setups later22:28
fdrakethat probably makes more sense than anything, but I've only skimmed the full explanation of what you want to do22:28
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MJI just experimented somewhat22:50
MJAnd created a simple persistent key domain22:51
MJAnd creating one with a name neatly registered it with that name22:51
MJAs long as I use the registration name I should be fine.22:51
MJThanks for Duckheading Fred, I think I figured it out for now22:53
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fdrakeMJ, cool, glad you figured out something that made sense for you23:01
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srichterfdrake: you contacted me?23:18
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fdrakei have changes to a Zope-3.1 checkout that allow it to build in-place using zpkg23:21
fdrakethe setup includes a list of the packages that include C extensions; it doesn't scan everything23:22
srichterok, cool23:22
fdrakethat means it can be used for build_ext -i (an in-place build), not not a conventional build23:22
fdrake(in the build/ tree)23:22
srichtercan you change the Makefile?23:23
fdrakebut that's sufficient for most development23:23
srichterI only use the Makefile (for this reason)23:23
fdrakeif it's ok to simply remove the out-of-place builds, sure23:23
fdrakeotherwise it needs no changes23:23
srichterok, cool23:23
fdrakethe question is: Is it ok to toss out-of-place builds?  (including installation from a checkout)23:24
fdrakeso that out-of-place builds and installation reqiure is packaged distro23:24
srichterfdrake: what does this mean in plain english? :-)23:26
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srichterif I can build a checkout without changes and build a release without modifications, I am fine23:26
fdrakethat would all work23:26
srichterthen I see no problem23:27
roymfolks, is there a way to set the skin a user sees, based on their role (and without doing a ++skin++XX in the URL)?23:27
fdrakewhat would not would be: "python build" or "python install"23:27
srichterroym: yes, see the skin preference demo in
srichterthe trunk and 3.1 branch uses the demo23:27
roymsrichter: thanks.23:28
srichterfdrake: fine with me23:28
fdrakethink it'll piss people off?23:28
fdrakewe can add a more magical scan later, if anyone cares23:28
fdrake(I don't, Jim may well)23:28
srichterwell, for now we check it in23:29
srichterif anyone gets pissed we deal with it then23:30
fdrakeit shouldn't be too hard to make a that at least scans for packages containing extension code or other special things23:30
fdrake(since they'll contain a SETUP.cfg file)23:30
fdrakeok, i'll get Tim to push the ZODB release button, and then commit the rest of the needed changes23:31
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yotamexiKON: ping23:43
yotawho manages translations ?23:45
yotaonly mexiKON ?23:45
fdrakesrichter, the ZODB button has been pressed, I'm testing with the tagged ZODB version on the Zope-3.1 branch23:49
fdrakewhen that's done and passed, and the built distro from that has also been tested, i'll commit23:49
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