IRC log of #zope3-dev for Thursday, 2005-08-18

projekt01It is easier to implement interface 3 + 4 if we have a zentralized WorkList and WokListHandler implementation00:00
srichterI have a centralized worklist00:02
srichterbut my applications register themselves with that worklist00:02
srichterupon initialization00:02
projekt01ah, ok, we store the process instance in utility. This is the only one local utility we need because of the persistence00:03
srichterI need no local utility00:04
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projekt01Yes, I know, how do you provide a local setup in a site?00:05
projekt01I guess local adapters and local utilities? right?00:06
srichterwhat do you mean with local setup?00:06
projekt01Let's say you have two sites and you like to use different worklfow configurations.00:07
srichterI don't have this case :-)00:07
srichterI specific workflow is always for a particular component00:08
projekt01Yes, but the same component can have different workflows in different sites.00:09
srichternot SchoolTool00:09
srichterin sT there is only one site00:09
srichterthe workflow is flexible enough to adjust itself to different schooltool sites00:09
srichterso, schools setup the levels they have00:10
srichterbased on this level setup the workflow varies00:10
projekt01Ok, I saw something like levels but I didn't find out what they do00:11
srichterso basically, you have levels and you define how they are connected00:13
srichterfor example: grade 1 -> grade 2 -> ... -> grade 600:13
projekt01levels = permission levels?00:13
srichterYou then say the student enrolls in grade 100:13
srichterno, school levels00:13
srichter(1. Klasse, 2. Klasse, ...)00:13
srichteronce the student completes the first grade, the system looks at the grade and asks: what's your next grade?00:14
srichterthen the second grade is set as the next active one and is being completed00:15
srichterthis loop continues until you reach the final level (grade 6 in our example)00:15
srichterat that time the student graduates and the workflow is done/removed00:16
srichterthe nice thing in WfMC is that you can loop easily over a certain sub-process00:16
srichteronly changing the workflow-relevant data00:16
projekt01Ah, the level is a workflow relevant data attribute00:16
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projekt01Ok, do you use different permissions or something like that in different levels? or just set the attribute level?00:17
srichterno, no different permissions00:18
srichterof course I could register an application when the level is changed that could change permissions, if desired00:18
projekt01How would you implement if a item in a private state are not shwn in a container. I guess you would use a own container view, right?00:18
srichter(applications are the key to WfMC workflows)00:19
projekt01Yup, I see00:19
projekt01do this, do that...00:19
srichterI think I answered your question ;-)00:19
projekt01Thanks a lot, I go ahead and try to solve the dependency to the IProcessDefinition utility in ecm ;-)00:20
projekt01I still think this is to implementation specific implemented in zope.wfmc right now ;-)00:21
projekt01Will add a proposal if I solved it more general.00:21
projekt01Will/I will00:21
philiKONgrrr, i hate zope.org00:26
philiKONfdrake, ayt?00:26
projekt01srichter, do you have a minute again?00:28
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projekt01See line 193.00:29
projekt01There is no need for the getUtility part because the definition is given on the constructor00:29
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srichteryes, it is00:30
srichterbecause process definitions are not persistent00:30
projekt01argh, yes true00:30
srichterand they contain references to modules as far as I remember, which means they are not pickable00:30
projekt01How could I implement a generic replaceable lookup00:31
philiKONfdrake, sent you an email00:31
srichterprojekt01: I think the adapter you mentioned is probably the best idea00:32
projekt01But how can we use a different adapter?00:32
projekt01I have to define the adapter lookup in the process module? right?00:32
srichteroverride the default registration00:32
projekt01Ah, with a override.zcml00:33
projekt01Hm, it's one solution but is there not a more generic way00:33
projekt01Which don't need override.zcml00:33
srichterI really like the current implementation, btw, so any solution would need to be non-intrusive or very little intrusive00:35
srichterI still don't understnd why you cannot simply register the process definition as a utility00:36
srichterit is the classic example of a utility00:36
projekt01No way, I don't like to have this many utilities. I'm not happy with utilities for this  usecase.00:37
srichterit is the same as using utilities for RDB adapters00:38
srichterthe utility registry is used to implement sub-registries00:38
projekt01We should lookup a component where provides a method getProcessDefinition(id), independent if it's a utility or whatever00:38
projekt01No I don't think it's the same, because a ProcessDefinition is a internal part of a application00:39
projekt01and not a general global standalone utility00:39
srichterso can be an RDB adapter00:39
projekt01Yes, it could be, but remember utilities are shared sources, no control at all00:40
srichterthe more I think about it, the more I am inclined to argue against generalizing the PD lookup00:40
srichterfor what do you want control?00:41
srichterthe control comes from the interface a utility provides00:41
projekt01Perhaps I only don't like all the utility in the ++etc++site/default folder00:42
srichterwell, that's a matter of presentation00:43
srichterso we need better views00:43
projekt01and where my customers allways ask what is this utility for00:43
srichterJim will rework all this for the next release00:43
srichterthen create a different site management folder00:43
projekt01Yes, this part has to be done once ;-) Perhaps it's a part for the sprint00:44
projekt01Yes, a different folder would be the best.00:44
srichteror do it like pau00:45
srichterwhich contains all its utilities00:45
projekt01Yeeeeeeeeees, that's it00:45
projekt01Really good point, I didn't think about that00:46
projekt01You have your utilities and I have my clean OOBTree00:46
projekt01hidden at all00:47
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projekt01cool, many thanks, I'll go to change it now....00:47
srichteryou are welcome00:48
projekt01Do you mean in the zope.wfmc? I was thinking about the ecm.workflow package00:49
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srichterprojekt01: what do you mean?00:51
projekt01I got it wrong with "you are welcome", I mean this was "you are welcome to change it". But it means "Bitte" right?00:53
philiKONin this case it meant "gern geschehen" i think00:53
projekt01philiKON, Yes, you know "my fantastic english"00:54
philiKONdon't worry, your english is probably still better than most american's german ;)00:54
projekt01ha, ha ,ha00:55
srichteryep, "gern geschehen" was meant here :-)00:55
srichterit is a bit more friendly than "no problem"00:55
projekt01Vielen Dank00:55
tvonI can count to 12 in german00:57
tvonthats about it00:57
srichterand that with such a german name :-)00:57
tvonpeople sometimes expect more with my last name being 'von Schwerdtner'00:57
tvonheh, I know00:57
tvonI suppose in Germany my last name would be 'Schwerdtner', I hear they ignore the 'von' stuff there00:58
srichterno, its not ignored00:58
srichterPhilipp is carrying it00:59
tvonah, someones been pulling my leg then :)00:59
srichtermost people just lost their "von" after the first and second worldwar00:59
tvonoh? why?00:59
srichterits a sign of nobelity, like "van" in dutch or "of" in english00:59
srichtera lot of people lost their title and property as part of the preparations01:00
srichterthe Russians especially wanted to get rid of the monarch structure01:00
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philiKONsrichter, actually, "van" in dutch is not nobility01:18
philiKONit's "tot"01:18
philiKON(dutch equivalent of "zu")01:18
philiKONtvon, after the 1918 revolution (when they got rid of the monarchy), all nobility titles became part of the last name01:19
tvonphiliKON: ah, interesting01:19
philiKONhence, people like us carry it around not being a title but simply as a part of the last name01:19
philiKONin austria, they did it differently01:20
philiKONwhen they got rid of the monarchy, all the nobles had to get rid of their titles01:20
philiKONso, the austrian empereror was then to be called Mr. Habsburg :)01:20
philiKONwhereas the german emperor's grandchildren are called Prinz von Preussen (Prince of Prussia)01:21
philiKONbug again, it's just a last name01:21
philiKONi actually don't know of anyone who "lost" the "von" deliberately. 99% of the nobility stayed out of the soviet zone which later became the gdr01:22
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projekt01srichter, ayt?04:11
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projekt01srichter, ayt?17:08
srichterprojekt01: yeah17:08
projekt01You where describing, that you store the workitems on the content types. tight?17:08
srichtervia annotations and an adapter17:09
projekt01But they could also be in a worklist repository (utility) in another implementation?17:09
srichterof course17:10
srichterthe API makes no assumption where to find process instances17:10
projekt01Ok, and how about a local site setup?17:10
projekt01Let's say we have 10 different custom projects on a z3 server17:11
projekt01Each of them uses its own workflows (different process definitions)17:12
projekt01could be, right?17:12
projekt01Now the location-less zope.wfmc implementation offers now way to integrate a local Worklist utility.17:13
projekt01This means all 10 sites have t share the on worklist utility which is a global utility.17:14
projekt01What do you think about this?17:15
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srichteryes, that's possible17:18
srichterwhy do they have to share it?17:18
srichterzope.wfmc does not know much (or makes many assumptions) about process isntances17:19
projekt01There is no way to implement a local worklist!17:19
srichterbtw, worklists are something different than a process instance repository17:19
srichteryes, there is17:19
srichteruse applications!17:19
srichterthe begin() method of an application should populate the worklist17:20
srichterI have local worklists in ST17:20
srichterwhenever an application that requires input is begun, then it adds a worklist item to the manager group17:21
srichterthis can be done fairly easily with workflow-relevant data or well-implemented participants17:22
projekt01Yes, but where did you get the context=?? for the getUtility call?17:22
projekt01I think this part is location-less and there I no way to get a local utility. What do I miss?17:23
srichterif you call getUtility it will use the context of the current site you are in17:23
srichterit is done automatically by Zope 317:23
srichterwhen you make a request, a participation is created, which contains the request17:24
srichterthis request knows or sets the site17:24
projekt01We have had the same problem in PAU, this isn't working right. At least not without a explicit context in getUtility17:24
srichterthe hooks in then know how to make use of this data to make local lookups17:25
srichterwell, of course in your tests you have to manually set the site17:25
srichterusing z.a.component.hooks.setSite17:25
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projekt01I don't think this is working because, You call a global adapter (application) and this application calls getUtility17:27
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projekt01then the location of the adapter which calls getUtility is global17:27
srichterit will work17:27
projekt01The same problem with PAU17:27
srichtertrust me17:27
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srichterthe context is known via a thread-global variable17:27
srichterthere is no problem17:27
srichterif the site is set correctly, it does a local lookup17:28
projekt01I try it, but I will be surprised if this is working, because I bugfixed all this part in PAU17:29
srichterPAU might have different issues, because it also needs a location on the object it tries to find permissions for17:30
projekt01Ok, you could be right17:30
projekt01Thanks a lot, I'll give it a try17:31
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roym``Is registration thru the ZMI broken or is it user error on my part? I get the following message when I try to register a Catalog in a site:18:47
roym``  File "/usr/local/Zope3/src/zope/app/component/", line 387, in __call__18:47
roym``    return proxify(self.factory(*objects), self.checker)18:47
roym``TypeError: __init__() takes exactly 4 arguments (3 given)18:47
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memer_cruising both the Zope and Plone sites, I looked thru the instructions on how to customize a template and, much to my surprise, the instructions at the Zope site was muuch more straightforward than what was presented at the Plone site with all this stuff about skins and wot not.  I'm wondering if I might be better off, in terms of learning curve, to build my own basic CMS than to start off hacking thru the dense foliage of Plone.  Your thoughts?19:07
srichtermemer_: this is the wrong channel to ask about plone19:08
memer_srichter: sorry. thot you guys could give me some perspective.19:09
srichtermemer_: however, in Zope 3 we use concepts like skins as well, since they are very powerful19:09
srichterwriting and supporting your own code is always more costly19:09
srichterI would suggest you try to utilize one of the existing CMSs, be it Plone, CPS or the Zope 3 based Tiks19:10
memer_srichter: ugh. wait, is this the wrong channel altoghetr19:10
memer_srichter:  manu thanks. will look into tiks19:10
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fdrakesrichter, you there?20:21
srichterwanna apply your patch to TAL?20:23
srichtergo ahead, I have not started the release [ :-) or :-(?]20:23
srichterfdrake: are you there?20:23
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fdrakeI'm about to propose that the define-macro/use-macro become define-macro/extends-macro; the current expression is just too dang subtle.20:26
fdrakeI don't have a patch for that yet.20:26
srichteroh, ok20:26
fdrakedefine-macro/use-macro will once more be disallowed20:26
srichteroh, I see20:26
fdrakeuse-macro/extend-macro will be disallowed20:26
srichterin the same tag element you mean20:27
fdrakei'll need to rev the METAL specification as well20:27
srichterdo you feel like this should go into 3.1?20:27
fdrakeextend-macro along will be disallowed, maybe20:27
fdrakethe basic feature is already there20:27
srichterI think this would be a bit icky20:27
srichterhow would you categorize it?20:28
srichterbug or feature?20:28
srichteris the change worth the confusion we will avoid?20:28
fdrakeit fixes a brokenness in the current feature as much as anything20:28
srichterlet's do it then20:28
fdrakeif we don't include the proposed changes, we'd have to rip out the feature20:28
fdrakeok, i'll proceed, likely in stages (quickly)20:29
srichtersounds good20:29
fdrakefirst fix the semantics, then the naming20:29
fdrakewas the release scheduled for today?20:29
fdrakewhat's the target release date?20:31
srichterwell, I plan since a week getting RC 2 out20:34
fdrakeI should be able to have this done tonight or tomorrow, depending on how long it takes me to fix up the tests.20:35
srichterok, sounds fine20:36
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