IRC log of #zope3-dev for Wednesday, 2005-08-31

MJThe Gadfly codebase is dead, right?00:22
MJMeaning I can change the exception raising style there too without having to send a patch upstream...00:23
MJ(in which case I won't bother)00:23
benji_yorkMJ, why are we touching dead code?00:25
MJBecause my editor now mostly lists gadfly files..00:26
MJAnd I am pernicity and picky00:26
MJAnd it turns out it ain't dead, Jim00:27
MJNot as we know it anyway. There is a SF GadflyB5 project00:27
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* MJ makes an executive decision not to touch Gadfly00:28
MJbenji_york: Also, I was feeling kinda sentimental about Gadfly.00:29
MJIt has been around for so long, like a smelly ole' dog..00:29
MJone last testrun..00:30
MJand then the whole of src/zope will use The One And Only raise exception style.00:30
MJMinus Gadfly, that is.00:31
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MJHold on, it's going in..00:39
J1mRight, I wouldn't worry about gadfly updates.00:41
J1mor updating it. :)00:41
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MJI'll stay well enough away00:52
MJBedtime anyway00:52
MJSo src/zope has been updated00:52
MJAnd so has the trunk version of zope.testing/src/zope/testing00:53
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sashavdoes the tcpwatch recording and doctest generation work for zope 2.8.1?10:35
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projekt01J1m, ayt?17:41
projekt01Do you have time for a wfmc question?17:44
J1mI'll make time for you. :)17:44
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projekt01How did you implement the participants in your project?17:44
projekt01Whould a different security policy be a bad idea?17:45
J1mIn our project participants were very simple components that identified users and their task lists.17:47
srichteryep, same for us17:47
projekt01Do you use views for applications?17:47
srichterparticipants are merely wrapper objects around the principal with some high-level API functions17:47
J1mFor example, in a workflow, we defined a "publishers" role and we provided a participant that found the publisher's group task list.17:47
J1mI dodn17:48
J1mI didn't find a different secrity policy necessary for workflow.17:48
projekt01Yeah, I know this concepts, but let me explain a use case first.17:48
J1mWe did use a different security policy that we plan to release.17:49
projekt01We have participants and applications/workitems..17:49
projekt01This workitems have views and should be accissible for participants...17:49
projekt01Now we have to add permission and perhaps done via the application...17:49
projekt01Now we put the persmission for principals or groups...17:50
projekt01This isn't nice because we have defined the participants for this part, but permissions are use for principals.17:50
J1mYes, we do this with subscribers to workflow events.17:50
J1mIt's the job of the participant workflow component to map wf process participants to principals directly or (in our case) indirectly.17:52
srichterI agree :-)17:53
projekt01Yes, I see, but how is the relation for a permission on a view and a participant?17:53
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projekt01I think on one side you use a mapping participant to principal and on the other side you set the permission directly for principals17:54
projekt01I think of a pattern where we set permission or roles for participants.17:54
projekt01Whould this be a bad Idea?17:55
J1mI don't see the pattern.  It depend on the application.18:00
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projekt01Do you use workitem/application views in our implementation?18:04
projekt01If so, how do you register a view and it's zmi_views menu for a participant on workitem?18:04
projekt01How do you control this views and make sure the menu get shown if needed?18:05
J1mWe have content components like tasks lists and tasks. We manage permissions for these just like with any other Zope content.  There's nothing magic about workflow.18:06
J1mWorkflow simply provides additional control.18:07
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projekt01Can you also access or edit the controlled object or do you only access the controlled object via tasks/workitems?18:09
srichterWe use adapters to get to the worklists, which is a bit different than standard CMS-based workflows18:10
srichterprojekt01: not every workflow controls a particular object18:10
srichterhowever, in SchoolTool we only allow the workitems to do certain tasks and in some other scenarios you can also change things manually18:11
srichterit really depends on what you want/need18:11
projekt01yes, I see. Sorry, about that. I speak about document centric workflow implementation and not about a process oriented implementation18:11
* J1m investigates breakage18:12
projekt01I our use case the object is the only part where we can access, there is no need to show a worklist.18:12
* J1m can't wait for a foundation to take over :)18:12
srichteris Fred around?18:13
benji_yorknot presently, but should be here (in the office) in a while18:13
benji_yorkoops, nope he's not18:13
benji_yorkI can IM him and ask him to come to IRC18:14
J1mjust did18:14
projekt01Thanks J1m and srichter, I have to go to the pool and drink another margaritha. See you next week.18:14
srichterbenji_york: I can do that too18:14
srichterI have his AIM name18:14
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fdrakesrichter, you there?18:39
srichterfdrake: pong18:42
fdrakeappearantly you missed the question i sent via AIM before you logged off18:42
fdrakethe ZConfig stuff isn't merged to the zpkg trunk yet18:42
srichteroh, I thought I saw a merge this morning18:43
fdrakei'm making the changes needed in the projects to support that version without requiring additional copies of zpkg18:43
srichterok then18:43
fdrakeit won't be long18:43
srichterI could work with the branch too, of course, right?18:43
fdrakecould, yes18:44
srichterfdrake: also, did you see my zpkg ML post?18:44
fdrakeand then "svn switch" once I've merged into the trunk18:44
fdrakewill respond once I've got this merge done :-)18:44
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srichterok, cool18:46
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fdrakeThe zpkg stuff now uses ZConfig for configuration.  The ZODB and Zope3 trunks have grown buildsupport/ directories that contain needed support code used by the scripts.20:10
fdrakeI'll be watching the zope3-dev list and the collector for problem reports related to this.20:11
fdrakeYou might want to watch out for *.OLD directories from svn after updating, though.20:12
fdrake(Just 'cause they're annoying, and you might get one in the top-level directory of the checkout, where an external has been removed.)20:12
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srichterfdrake: I got the exclude section implemented20:16
srichterfdrake: do I need to document this anywhere?20:16
fdrakeyes  :-)20:16
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philiKONfdrake, srichter, hard to follow what's happening in checkouts these days :). what's the difference between Zope3/zpkgsupport and Zope3/buildsupport/zpkgsupport ?20:17
fdrakeZope3/zpkgsupport should disappear20:18
fdrakeyou likely will need to rm -r the .OLD directory svn will create20:18
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baldtrolhi all...  hope i'm asking in the right channel, and if not, i'll happily redirect elsewhere, but after googling the zope3-dev chatlogs are the only ones that run close to answering what i'm trying to figure out.  i'm working with authentication in zope3.1...  i've basically just tacked on some functionality to principalfolder, but that's not really the issue...  with my new principal and container classes, i can add principals, and if i throw debugging20:22
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srichterbaldtrol: your message was too long20:25
baldtrolargh, i'm sorry.20:25
baldtrolhi all...  hope i'm asking in the right channel, and if not, i'll happily redirect elsewhere, but after googling the zope3-dev chatlogs are the only ones that run close to answering what i'm trying to figure out.  i'm working with authentication in zope3.120:25
baldtroli've basically just tacked on some functionality to principalfolder, but that's not really the issue...  with my new principal and container classes, i can add principals, and even log in with them over xmlrpc20:26
baldtrolzapi.getUtility(IAuthentication) or a IAuthentication(self.context) (looping over principal sources returned, per philiKON's example in his excellent book) both do show my logins as keys...  but from my login page, principalregistry never seems to find my new user20:26
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srichterare you sure all of your objects have a __parent__?20:27
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* SteveA thinks __parent__ should not be a core concept20:28
* SteveA randomly interjected20:28
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baldtrolhmm.  i don't set __parent__ explicitly, but then again, the principal class i'm building doesn't do anything other than hand it back to InternalPrincipal (i just created a wrapper class so i could set up different zcml configs against it without throwing a conflict)20:29
srichtertis was just a random guess20:30
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baldtrola better one than i have at this point ;)20:31
srichterfdrake: did you forget to check in zpkgtools.zpkgsetup.setup?20:33
fdrakewhy, what's wrong?20:33
srichterwhen I unpack my ST distro, it tells me:20:34
srichter/usr/bin/python -q build20:34
srichterTraceback (most recent call last):20:34
srichter  File "", line 22, in ?20:34
srichter    import zpkgsetup.setup20:34
srichterImportError: No module named zpkgsetup.setup20:34
fdrakedoes the distro include Support/zpkgsetup/
srichterhold on20:35
fdrakei'll look into it now20:36
srichter(note that this is ST, so I am not sure it will also happen in Zope 3, since I have not changed to the new pattern of using the buildsupport dir20:37
fdrakethat shouldn't matter much, if at all20:37
srichterfdrake: there is a in Support/20:37
fdrakeyes; that's different  :-)20:37
ymmitsrichter:  I need to cut a release of ZODB 3.5 final for the Zope3 3.1 final release (should have been done before, but I wasn't conscious enough ;-) of Zope 3 release plans).  When do you expect to make Zope3 3.1 final?20:38
srichterwell, at least my <exclude> section seems to work20:38
srichterymmit: I think I will do it next week20:39
ymmitsrichter:  good!  that should be plenty of time for what I need to do.20:39
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ymmitsrichter:  Just to make sure, this is Zope3/branches/Zope-3.1 (in SVN), right?20:40
fdrakesrichter, the support code loading is fudged20:42
fdrakei'll dig into this an add a test case.20:43
efgeSteveA: agreed, __parent__ is an implementation detail of the default containment relationship model20:43
srichterfdrake: btw, Zope 3 has the same issue20:43
SteveAefge: i'd go further and say that the containment relationship shouldn't be core.  but, i'm an extremist.20:44
fdrakeyeah, i reproduced there20:44
fdrakethis looks like its only a problem for distros, not the builds in the checkouts20:45
srichterwell, for checkout builds my zpkgsetup is not finding ZConfig20:46
fdrakeZope 3, or ST?20:46
srichterso I will have to switch to the buildsupport20:46
fdrakeyou just need to make sure ZConfig is available20:46
fdrakebuildsupport/ gave me a place to have all that outside the top-level directory20:47
srichteryeah, easier said than done :-)20:47
fdrakehow you do it is up to you :-)20:47
srichterhe he20:47
srichterI follow Zope 3's suit :-)20:47
fdrakeworks for me!20:47
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srichterI wanted to move the buildsupport somewhere else anyways20:47
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srichterfdrake: ok, ST builds from the checkout now too again20:57
fdrakesrichter, try updating zpkg21:01
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fdrakeJ1m, can we get commit messages from the zpkgtools project in SVN to go to the zpkg mailing list as well (zpg at
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srichterfdrake: seems to work21:05
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srichterfdrake: please make sure that my ZConfig code is sane21:05
fdrakei'll take a look21:06
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fdrake(sheesh, I think I need to sleep tonight...)21:07
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fdrakesrichter, it looks better now21:28
srichterfdrake: thanks21:28
srichterfdrake: so sections always contain mappings?21:28
srichterthere is no concept of a list, right?21:28
fdrakeno; that's a function of <key name="+">21:29
fdrakeif you just have named keys, you get attributes on the section object21:29
srichterI see21:29
fdrakehave you read the docs?21:30
fdrake<key name="+"> is a pretty obscure case, mostly learned by copying something I've done.  ;-)21:30
srichterI have read the docs a long time ago21:32
srichterbut I am better with doing things21:32
srichterI was not that far off :-)21:32
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srichterok, time for me to go21:56
srichterJ1m: I have not reached Dylan today, but left him a message with my arrival gate; if he calls you I am waiting in the area where passengers leave the security zone21:57
srichtersee ya in a couple hours21:57
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fdrakeJ1m, can we get commit messages from the zpkgtools project in SVN to go to the zpkg mailing list as well (zpg at
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fdrakeah; i fat-finger the address22:20
fdrakeit should be zpkg at zope.org22:20
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hazmatjoin #xmlio23:50
benji_yorkhazmat, do I have to?  :)23:51

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