IRC log of #zope3-dev for Thursday, 2005-10-06

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projekt01J1m, ayt?00:45
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febbHi all01:42
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febbis anyone alive  here ?03:01
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robygIs zope3 good?04:18
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robygbetter than zope2 ?04:34
febbhi all05:07
febbanyone has played with Zope3 and psycopgda... ?05:07
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philiKONhi srichter11:42
philiKONsrichter, sprinting?11:42
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srichterwe are starting around 13:00 today, but the first people are already here11:44
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* VladDrac still can't get is IBrowserPublisher adapter to work :(12:42
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VladDracah, slowly getting it to work12:47
VladDracTypeError: unbound method getContact() must be called with DomainTool instance as first argument (got DomainTool instance instead)12:49
VladDracinteresting ;)12:49
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VladDracok now that I get the hang of it, the IBrowserPublisher adaption is really nice13:07
VladDrac(and http specific so it doesn't mess with my AMF traversal :)13:07
philiKONyes, i very much like the cool new ways of specifying more stuff in python code that belongs there and not in zcml13:08
VladDracI'm now adding additional traversing (for http views) on top of my "tool"13:08
VladDracif someone accesses /contact?id=1, a proxy "contact" object is created, loaded with an SQLObject (with id 1)13:08
VladDraczope.formlib works on top of this proxy object (as its context)13:09
philiKONwhy not contact/1/ ?13:09
VladDracrather clean, really nice as well13:09
philiKONform values suck for this13:09
VladDracphil: because it would need two levels of traversing13:09
VladDracphil I've considered it, I'm too lazy at this moment13:09
philiKONor, contact/++id++1/13:09
philiKONthat's very very easy13:09
philiKONthat == a namespace adapter like ++id++13:10
VladDracphil: /contact would need to result in something that's traversable as well, so /contact/1 will result in the actual "proxy"13:10
VladDracphil: trivial to you perhaps, I wouldn't know where to start13:10
philiKONacutally, it's not that hard13:11
philiKONlet's go back to my suggestion contact/113:11
* VladDrac 'd like that13:11
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philiKONnow, i gues syou have something like:13:11
philiKONor what would like urls to look like?13:12
VladDracthat's what I'd like13:12
VladDracwhat I have is some_filder/contact?id=113:12
VladDracsome_folder is my "tool" that currently adapts to IBrowserPublisher13:13
philiKONso, you write an ITraversable adapter for some_folder13:13
VladDracoffering publishTravers() that traverses /contact13:13
SteveAyou need ITraversable only when you're concerned with TALES traversal13:13
SteveAthe main issue in integrating sqlobject into zope3 like this is security13:13
philiKONITraversable is a bit general13:14
SteveAITraversable is for object graph traversal13:14
SteveAor TALES traversal, if you prefer that name13:14
SteveAso, SQLObject uses classmethods as factories for temporary objects that are representations of rows in the database13:14
SteveAthere is no "root object" in the sense the ZODB has13:15
SteveAin Zope 3, the publication, the thing that deals with web requests, needs to be given access to "assets" through a security-aware channe13:15
SteveAit gets the root object as a security proxied root object, in the default zope3 publication13:16
VladDracsteve: that would be my "proxy" object right?13:16
SteveAand this ensures that all other zodb objects you get will be security proxied13:16
SteveAin launchpad, we don't use the zodb13:16
philiKONSteveA, so, let me get this right: for URL traversal, Traversables and Traversers aren't used at all, but only IBrowserPublishers?13:16
SteveAand our publication doesn't have a useful root object (i think the concept is bogus, but that's another discussion)13:16
VladDracphil: that's what I learned - implementing ITraversable didn't work for me13:17
SteveAso, we need a "security aware channel" to get sql objects for use by the publisher, for traversing13:17
philiKONVladDrac, that will have some implications on Five...13:17
SteveAin launchpad, we use getUtility(IContentObjectSet), where IContentObjectSet is a singleton that provides methods to query the sql objects13:18
SteveAthe utility is registered by a secured_utility directive13:18
* philiKON leaves VladDrac to SteveA's advice and returns coding13:18
SteveAwhich registers it as a utility, but so that the utility is security-proxied before it is returned13:18
SteveAthen, there are IBrowserPublisher adapters registered for objects that says how to traverse them13:19
SteveAwe don't use any but the basic ITraversable adapters as provided by Zope 313:19
SteveAalthough, some custom tales PathAdapters implement ITraversable directly13:20
SteveAphiliKON: the default URL traversal in Zope 3 is an IBrowserPublication that looks up an ITraversable and uses that13:20
philiKONSteveA, ah! that's good to know13:20
SteveAso, there is, by default, this link between browser traversal and TALES traversal13:21
SteveAbut, the names are confusing13:21
SteveAand this default is actually very confusing13:21
SteveAbecause it promotes the idea that the arrangement of objects in the ZODB is what should be shown throught the web13:21
SteveAand that ITraversable is the correct place to change browser traversal13:21
SteveAand makes the zope3 framework look more tightly coupled zodb<->web presentation, and more complex, than it really is13:22
SteveAi mean, you wrote a book on it, and yet you just had an "aha!" moment13:22
philiKONi think the default is sensible. the promotion of which to change should be different, though13:22
SteveAwell, i'm more radical13:22
philiKONi bet i used to know this a year ago but just forgot :)13:22
SteveAi think the default zope3 should not include the zodb13:23
philiKONi guess that makes a point for you13:23
SteveAand the zodb should be an add-on13:23
* SteveA gets of the soap box, and goes back to implementing "Navigation" components for launchpad13:23
philiKONSteveA, i tend to agree with you more on this than i used to 1-2 years ago13:24
philiKONSteveA, maybe this can become reality for zope 3.5 or so13:24
SteveAi need to take a vacation from launchpad, and actually do some of these things i keep going on about13:24
SteveAbut, launchpad needs me for a while longer...13:24
VladDracI'm lost already :)13:31
* VladDrac 's gonna stick to his /contact?id=1 implementation for now :)13:31
VladDracI might optimize later but for now it works13:32
SteveAVladDrac: i can explain more simply, but to get the security stuff right, you need to understand the zope3 security model13:32
SteveAsee, it is very easy to get an sqlobject instance that isn't security proxied13:32
SteveAif you don't program it according to what the security model expects13:32
SteveAi gave a talk on this at europython13:33
SteveAbecause, the default security model implementation (again) assumes a ZODB model13:33
SteveAand this makes it not at all obvious what you need to do to change it13:33
SteveAwhereas, if the ZODB were distributed separately, it would be clear from seeing how the separate unit needs to plug in13:34
SteveAwhat you need to do to plug in other such systems13:34
SteveArunyaga_: i guess you're interested in this too13:34
SteveAVladDrac: a simple solution for you for now is to write a ZODB object13:34
SteveAwhich doesn't really do anything except be stored in the ZODB13:35
SteveAand which has methods which get you access to your sqlobject objects13:35
SteveAthat will mean that your sqlobject instances will be security proxied13:35
SteveAbecause they will have ultimately come via the ZODB root object13:35
SteveAdo you get what i mean?13:35
VladDracsteve well yes and no13:36
VladDracit sounds like you're solving a problem that I've already solved13:36
SteveAyou do the security proxying in your traversal code?13:36
VladDraccurrently I'm just creating some proxy (not security/zope3 proxy) object on the fly when /contact?id=1 accessed13:37
VladDracwhich somewhat "wraps" the Contact sql object (->Contact.get(1))13:37
SteveAokay, so it represents the collection of all Contacts13:37
VladDracI explicitly define an interface on this object (a bit redundant, the entire definition is already in the sqlobject, but okay)13:38
SteveAthis would be getUtility(IContactSet) in launchpad, btw13:38
SteveAto link with what i said earlier13:38
VladDracand zope.formlib can then generate forms on top of this13:38
VladDracno not entire sets, individual objects13:38
VladDracnone of the objects that are generated are really persistent in the ZODB13:38
SteveAi wouldn't bother with the wrapper, although i would use the interface13:38
VladDracthey just provide the appropriate context for zope.formlib to work on13:39
SteveAbut, how do you get one of these wrappers?13:39
VladDracmy tool is at, say /tool13:39
VladDracif you access /tool/contact?id=113:39
VladDracthen the IBrowserPublisher adapter that adapts /tool create such a wrapper and returns it13:40
VladDracand passes the id=1 to it, so it can load the appropriate SQLObject13:40
SteveAso, the object at /tool is security proxied13:40
SteveAit is in the ZODB, probably13:40
SteveAthe adapter of /tool is most likely not security proxied, or is protected by just a single permission13:41
SteveAthe adapter gets an sqlobject instance, which is not security proxied13:41
SteveAso, if this kind of security works for you, that's great.13:41
SteveAyou may be able to use the content directive to specify more security for your wrapper13:42
SteveAbut i don't know whether that gets used when it's used as an adapter13:42
VladDrac <require13:42
VladDrac  permission="zope.View"13:42
VladDrac  interface=".forminterfaces.IDataProxy"13:42
VladDrac  />13:42
VladDracit won't work without it, actually13:42
SteveAdo you define a permission in the adapter directive?13:43
VladDrac  for="..interfaces.IDomainTool"13:43
VladDrac  provides="zope.publisher.interfaces.browser.IBrowserPublisher"13:43
VladDrac  class=".adapters.DTBrowserPublisher"13:43
VladDrac  permission="zope.Public"13:43
VladDrac  />13:43
VladDracthis is all there is basically13:43
SteveAi mean, the adapter from tool to wrapper13:43
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VladDracthat's not done through adaption13:43
VladDracthe only adapter is the adapter above that implements IBrowserPublisher on top of my tool13:43
SteveAi see, i'd misread what you wrote above13:44
VladDracthe whole discussion was about a nicer way to traverse13:44
SteveAglad you've found something that works13:44
VladDraci.e. /tool/contact/1 or /tool/contact/++id++1/13:44
SteveAthe ++id++ thing is way bogus13:44
SteveAaesthetically, and practically13:45
SteveA contact/1 is much better13:45
VladDracI'd like /contact/1 and that would be doable bit all of this isn't too important right now13:45
VladDracmy customer wants a Flex (flash) AMF interface, so all real work is done through amf publication13:46
VladDracI just need the web interface for myself, for maintenance/testing13:46
SteveAdon't you already have /contact/1 ?13:46
SteveAjust register an IBrowserPublisher adapter for IDataProxy13:46
VladDracsteve no, tool.publishTraverse intercepts requests for "contact" and creates a wrapper based on id13:46
SteveA(I'd call it IContact, but still)13:46
SteveAso, what interface does the wrapper provide?13:47
SteveAif you like, make the wrapper directly provide IBrowserPublisher13:47
SteveAor just IPublishTraverse13:47
VladDracit provides IDataProxy and IContactForm13:47
VladDracIDataProxy is a generic wrapper interface, IContactForm is specifically for the Contact object13:48
VladDrac(there will be more types of course)13:48
SteveAyou need to register the IBrowserPublisher for something that your wrapper provides13:48
SteveAor make the wrapper class implement IBrowserPublisher itself13:48
SteveAwait a sec13:49
SteveAyou said /tool/contact/113:49
SteveAso, what is /tool/contact/ ?  is /tool/contact/1  where you can edit contact number 1?13:50
VladDrac /tool/contact/1 would be the ideal path13:50
VladDraccurrently, it works with /tool/contact/id=113:50
VladDraccurrently, it works with /tool/contact?id=113:50
VladDraci.e. one level of traversing "below" /tool13:50
SteveAwhat is at /tool/contact ?13:50
VladDracthis is:13:51
VladDrac    def publishTraverse(self, request, name):13:51
VladDrac        id = int(request.form.get('id', -1))13:51
VladDrac        if self.subcontent_map.has_key(name):13:51
VladDrac            (factory, source) = self.subcontent_map[name]13:51
VladDrac            return factory(self.context, name, id, source)13:51
VladDrac        raise NotFound(self.context, name, request)13:51
VladDracsubcontent_map maps "contact" to an appropriate wrapper13:51
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SteveAi see13:52
VladDracand I could delegate stuff one further level, as you suggest13:52
VladDraci.e. return something that can traverse the /1 and return the appropriate object13:52
SteveAi don't get this13:53
SteveAwhat does 'name' do in the code above?13:53
SteveAisn't 'name13:53
SteveAisn't 'name' the '1' or '2' or whatever?13:53
VladDracname is "contact"13:54
VladDrac(or "domain", or any other type of object in my db that's gonna be wrapped)13:54
SteveAso, that publishTraverse traverses 'contact'13:55
SteveAyou can actually make it traverse more than that in one go13:55
VladDracok that would be nice, how?13:55
SteveAthis is more crufty than it should be13:55
SteveAbecause of a bug in the zope3 request13:55
SteveAthat i need to fix sometime13:55
SteveAby a bit of a refactor13:55
VladDracpop elemens out of the requests traversalstack?13:55
SteveAyep, i'll show you some code13:56
VladDracsounds zope2-ish :)13:56
SteveA                traversalstack = request.getTraversalStack()13:56
SteveA                if len(traversalstack) > 0:13:56
SteveA                    nextstep = traversalstack.pop()13:56
SteveA                    request._traversed_names.append(nextstep)13:56
SteveA                    request.setTraversalStack(traversalstack)13:56
SteveAso, basically, you get the traversal stack13:56
SteveAand you can set it when you've done playing with it13:56
SteveAit is "backwards" in the sense that you need to pop things out of it to get the next step13:56
VladDracok, cool, that should work13:57
SteveAthe bug is, you need to add any names you remove to request._traversed_names13:57
SteveAthe refactor i need to do13:57
VladDracok I've seen that before recently somewhere13:57
SteveAis to have a request.traversalstack as a list-like object13:57
VladDracprobably during amf publication debugging :)13:57
SteveAthat takes care of its own internal state13:57
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SteveAand deprecate the set / getTraversalStack13:57
SteveAVladDrac: so, in summary, it should be easy and obvious how to do browser traversal, multiple steps at a time, in zope3.  but it's still rather crufty.14:00
VladDracI've seen worse (in zope2 :)14:01
VladDracthe nice thing is14:01
VladDracthat I just added it, and it just works :)14:01
VladDrac /tool/contact/1/@@edit.html edits object with id=1 nicely14:02
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SteveAit *should* be more like   nextstep = request.traversalstack.pop()14:12
SteveAand that's it14:12
zagySteveA: hi :)14:26
SteveAhello there mr z14:26
zagyhow are you doing?14:27
SteveAgodamn irc meetings all day ;-)14:27
SteveAhow are you?14:27
zagyheh, only managing, right?14:28
zagyI'm fine... we're planning to move by the end of the year14:28
SteveAto move where?14:29
zagyboth gocept and me :)14:29
Theunisomeone said gocept14:29
zagyto Halle, a larger city about 50km from here14:30
* Theuni too14:30
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SteveAbut the office is so nice, and near a very nice sauna place14:33
SteveAmaybe i should visit before you all move ;-)14:34
Theuniyou still need a care?14:34
Theuniyou still need a car?14:34
zagyTheuni: no14:35
zagySteveA: sure14:35
zagythe new office will be even nicer though :)14:36
SteveAput the car on hold for a while14:36
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VladDracwhat methods are available to introspect attributes/methods implemented by an object?15:28
SteveAask what interfaces it provides15:30
SteveAand inspect the interfaces15:30
SteveAlook in zope/interface/interfaces.py15:31
VladDrachmm ok tried that but I guess I tried wrong ::)15:32
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VladDracalef: could you stop doing that?16:28
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J1msrichter, ayt?16:40
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MacYET_sr is heavily discussing here16:54
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tarekJ1m, ayt ?16:57
J1mYes, and responsing to your email.16:58
tarekoh alrite, thx16:59
runyaga_SteveA, ahhh you have come to the darkside - i see17:03
tarekJ1m, thx17:03
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mgedmindark side?17:06
* mgedmin goes to read logs17:06
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* MacYET_ thinks about clever method names17:17
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faassenmgedmin: what dark side?17:55
SteveAmust be a PSU plot17:56
faassenSteveA: why'd runyaga claim you went to the dark side? which particular dark side? :)17:56
* J1m wants to know too. :)17:57
faassenSteveA: give us the information!17:58
faassenJ1m: he's probably the werewolf.17:58
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SteveAi was outlining one way to run zope3 without the zodb, with sqlobject, and adapting the security model to do so.17:58
J1mfaassen, good point.17:58
* SteveA really needs to get his EP talk slides published17:59
faassenSteveA: where did you outline this?17:59
SteveAi outlined it best in the EP talk17:59
faassenrunning zope 3 without the zodb should be something someone advocates.17:59
SteveAi advocate it17:59
faassenso that's good.17:59
* runyaga rallies17:59
faassenthat's not dark side.17:59
SteveAi also advocate running it with the zodb17:59
SteveAso, i play on both sides17:59
runyagayes.. by default it should not run zodb (imho)18:00
runyagai love zodb, btw.  its fast and effortless18:00
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SteveAi think there would be a great many advantages to having the zodb as an optional self-contained add-on to zope318:00
J1mHm, I bet Plone would not have taken off the way it did if it weren't for the ZODB.18:00
SteveAone advantage would be that people who want to plug in other "asset / content" mechanisms can see a concrete example of how to do it18:01
run|awayJ1m, your probably right.  I would still use the zodb18:01
run|awayI *want* the ZODB.  I just dont know if it should be on by default.18:01
faassenI agree with everybody on everything here.18:01
J1mIt could be argued that the "default" case should be very easy.18:01
faassenI think it should be on by default. it should just be easy to turn something else on instead by default.18:01
faassenwell, not by default. :)18:01
J1mOTOH, there could be much simpler defaults for -- for example for apps that don't need a database at all. Or need a minimal one.18:02
faassenI like the ZODB on by default, as everything else is harder to install.18:02
faassenwell, that's a default that doesn't do much.18:02
faassenno database at all.18:02
J1mHello world doesn't need an object filing system.18:02
SteveAnor does a pi server18:02
faassenblasphemy! oh, wait, you're the zope pope.18:02
faassenwhat's a pi server?18:02
SteveAthen again, i'm not sure the world needs a pi server18:02
faassena server that serves up pi?18:03
SteveAin octal, perhaps18:03
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faassenthe world needs a pi server, pi needs to be a web service.18:03
faassenso that it's easy to reconfigure things if the universe changes fundamentally.18:03
SteveAso, /02345 gets you the 02345'th octal digit of pi18:03
SteveAor, if you configure the pi service to be at /my/pi/server/ then /my/pi/server/02345 is that digit18:04
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benji_yorkfaassen, I *am* sure the world doesn't need a pi server18:05
faassenanyway, while hello world doesn't need an object database.18:05
faassenbenji_york: how come? :)18:05
faassenmany trivial web apps taht the 20 minute videos seem to be about do need some form of database.18:05
faassentodo lists and such.18:05
benji_yorkbecause e is much newer and more exciting18:05
faassenand we can say "make your objects without writing SQL!" too. :)18:05
faassenbenji_york: well, they're both related to each other  and to i.18:06
SteveAyou don't need both an e server and a pi server if you have a "Nth root of" server.18:08
benji_yorkclass IContentTypeInfo(interface.Interface):18:09
benji_york    """Information about content types"""18:09
benji_york    expectedMimeTypes = schema.List(18:09
benji_york        title=_('Mime Types'),18:09
benji_york        description=_("The MIME type for the associated content type."),18:09
benji_york        required=False,18:09
benji_york        value_type=schema.ASCIILine(constraint=mimeTypeConstraint),18:09
benji_york        )18:09
benji_york    expectedExtensions = schema.List( # XXX check constraint18:09
benji_york        title=_('Extensions (with leading dot)'),18:09
benji_york        description=_("Usual extensions for the associated content type;"18:09
benji_york                      " first is preferred."),18:09
benji_york        required=True,18:09
benji_york        min_length=0,18:09
benji_york        value_type=schema.ASCIILine(constraint=re.compile(r'\.').match),18:09
benji_york        )18:09
benji_york    title = MessageID(18:09
benji_york        title=_("Title"),18:09
benji_york        description=_("The message id for the human-readable name"18:09
benji_york                      " of this content type."),18:09
benji_york        required=True,18:09
benji_york        )18:09
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J1mbenji_york, good point.18:10
* benji_york doesn't get allong with middle-click-paste very well18:11
J1mtarek, you're set up18:25
tarekJ1m, ok thx18:25
* philiKON just read up18:28
philiKONi think we need a hyperfine structure constant server18:31
SteveAyou could have an arkansas overridden PI server that would be simpler to implement18:32
benji_yorkPraline: No I'm sorry, I'm not prepared to pursue my line of enquiry any further as I think this is getting too silly.18:32
benji_yorkColonel: (coming in) Quite agree. Quite agree. Silly. Silly . . . silly. Right get on with it. Get on with it.18:32
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philiKONprobably the most fascinating number in physics:
philiKONrichard feynman: "one of the greatest damn mysteries of physics: a magic number that comes to use with no understanding by man"18:34
SteveAdidn't they rule that pi is three?18:35
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philiKON did they?18:37
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* MacYET_ curses z318:44
faassennot z3.18:45
faassenwe're not in arkansas.18:45
faassenanyway, they never ruled pi was 3, but some american states did have it up for proposal at various stages, if I recall correctly.18:45
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philiKONfaassen, why would they ever do that?19:02
benji_yorkphiliKON, see
philiKONthanks. i tried googling but nothing came up19:03
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MacYET_checkin messages from branches go to the mailinglist?19:06
MacYET_hmm..then i am missing mine19:08
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mgedminindiana was the state that tried to legislate PI == 319:26
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mgedminor was it 3.219:26
mgedminby the way, there is a pi server somewhere on the net19:26
mgedmina coworker of mine left a wget in background and downloaded half a meg of pi digits19:26
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Jonexbenji_york: "Download Tim's Windows binaries for the Zope 3 C code and install according to the instructions"19:34
JonexThere are none.19:34
srichterfaassen: tonico strasser is doing the new nice graphics for the new site19:34
mgedminnice graphics!  yummy!19:36 shows viacom properties19:37
runyagawow.. cbsnewyork is looking great!19:37
MacYET_viacom runs on z3?19:39
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runyagaprobably some dns issue - just wanted to say it - not sure if thats desired behavior19:40
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faassensrichter: cool. :)19:59
faassensrichter: I hope they're serious with a bit of spark.19:59
srichterme too20:00
faassensrichter: we want to look cool but not as cool as some of the new cool looking systems. Zope 3 is needs to come across as cool but we have a lot of experience.20:00
srichterthey are working hard to get something going :-)20:00
faassensrichter: is the sprint ongoing?20:00
srichterwe started today and will work till Sunday20:00
srichterI think we will have things to show20:00
faassensrichter: cool. looking forward to taking a look.20:00
faassensrichter: anyway, JW and I were chatting about it today.20:01
faassensrichter: he basically said, it shouldn't look as cool as TurboGears or Django sites. :)20:01
mgedminI agree -- it should look *cooler*!20:01
faassenmgedmin: well, we don't want to look at, oh, yeah, zope 3 is going to do the colorful web page too.20:01
faassenmgedmin: better look a bit less playful, though a bit more playful than :)20:02
mgedmine.g. is very cool20:02
faassenmgedmin: if we want playful we have the z3 base. :)20:02
mgedminor it looks very cool at a first glance20:02
mgedminI never actually tried to browse it20:02
faassenyeah, that's not as busy as turbogears.org20:02
mgedminyeah, was too busy20:02
Jonexbenji_york: You can't help?20:03
faassendjango is a bit less busy, but needs to be more understated. :)20:03 will get a slightly less busy look when the next version is released.20:05
JonexAt least on the normal pages, the splash screen may be as cluttered even then.20:06
faassenJonex: how od you know? :)20:06
Jonexfaassen: I made it. :)20:06
faassenJonex: ooh, cool.20:06
faassenJonex: to make it clear, I think turbogears presents itself *way* better than zope. :)20:06
faassenJonex: it's just that zope needs to have more like a 'weight of history' look to it. :)20:06
JonexI'm not sure that's true, I think the web design should rather reflect the feeling of the framework than the stability/history of it.20:07
faassenJonex: but the feeling *is* that we've got years of experience here.20:08
JonexLike now, when I see the current zope web page I get the impression that zope is a big and solid framework that may be a working sollution for large corporations but really hard to customise.20:09
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JonexI certainly do not get the feeling of an agile, flexible framework that I can use to write my next dynamic web page in.20:10
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faassenJonex: yeah, but the current is not what I was talking about.20:12
JonexBut more important than a webste with the right feeling is handholding tutorials and a video showing how effective you can be in it with wome experience.20:12
faassenthe video seems to be standard issue these days.20:12
faassenwhat happened to text? :)20:12
faassenanyway, we'll end up making a screencast, I guess. :)20:12
JonexThe advantage of video is that you get a quick overview on how to set up and write a project. The factthat you can even do one of them shows that there isn't lots of boilerplate code to write.20:14
faassenJonex: yes.20:14
faassenJonex: I understand the appeal.20:14
benji_yorkJonex, I'm back (and reading up on the conversation)20:14
faassenJonex: it's just that ruby on rails managed to make this a requirement for *consideration*.20:14
faassenlike, Zope 3 has 2 books out.20:14
faassenbut people say, noo, I won't look into it until it has a video.20:14
faassenwhich is a bit frustrating. :)20:14
mgedminJonex, the turbogears flash video is a wonderful thing -- did you make it?20:14
runyagabenji's quick_isntall guide means editing like 5 files20:15
faassenbut I understand the appeal.20:15
runyagait would be much sexier if you only edited 1 file and voila.. instant CRUD20:15
runyagathen you could make a flash video uot of it20:15
Jonexmgedmin: No, that was Kevin :)20:15
faassenrunyaga: are you going to work on the bobo branch? :)20:15
runyagaas it stands.. you cant make a flash file to show off z3 sexiness20:15
runyagai would suggest doing a flash file of SIP (our z3 app) before doing one of z3 itself20:15
benji_yorkok Jonex, your original question was instructions on Tim's Z3 binaries?20:16
Jonexfaassen:  but do you think I'll bother to buy a book before I even know if it does what I want?20:16
runyagare: bobo branch - I'm up for it20:16
Jonexbenji_york: Yes., I'm trying to follow the quickstart, (in the void of a video tutorial ;))20:16
benji_yorkrunyaga, I plan on consolidating the view, interface, and code into one file in the quick start20:16
runyagabenji_york, can we remove the configure.zcml ?20:16
runyagastep as well?20:16
benji_yorkrunyaga, it's possible, but much uglier in Python than in ZCML (IIRC)20:17
SteveAnot if you write nice class advisors to do it20:17
JonexReducing the amount of XML is always a good idea to improve the sexyness of a project.20:17
runyagabenji_york, would make the demo sexier *wink*20:17
SteveAhow about browser_view_on(IFoo, 'index')20:17
benji_yorkJonex, he instructions are inside the zip20:18
Jonex(in the python world that id)20:18
Jonexbenji_york: Where?20:18
runyagabut benji's quickstart is awesome20:18
benji_yorkhmm, let me check...20:18
SteveAi'm more and more using zcml directives that just list a module and a bunch of classes20:18
SteveAand use class advisors to state 'glue' data about what the classes are used for20:19
JonexDoes zope have fancy features like login system, simple logiing and stuff?20:19
faassena login system is fancy?20:19
benji_yorkJonex, oops, sorry, the instructions are to the right of the archive on the page (in the "description" column)20:19
runyagafaassen, sql crud is fancy ;-)20:19
Jonex.pyd files from Zope3 trunk, compiled with MSVC 7.1. Unzip into the root of a Zope3 trunk checkout. For use with Python 2.4.1. Cannot be used with 2.3. Zope Corp does not support Python 2.4 yet, so you're on your own with this. "20:19
benji_yorkJonex, right20:20
benji_yorkperhaps I need step-by-step instructions in the quick start20:20
algaSteveA: isn't that hurting the pluggability?20:21
JonexHeh, oh, I should do that AND doa checkout. :)20:21
faassenSteveA: sounds like what the bobo branch was moving towards.20:21
JonexYou should put it into an python egg ;)20:21
faassenSteveA: your class advisor stuff. too bad your code isn't out there.20:21
faassenwe should put zope 3 in a python egg, indeed.20:21
SteveAalga: no20:22
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SteveAfaassen: yes.  it is too bad, though.20:22
faassenSteveA: what's too bad?20:22
* SteveA needs to start a weblog to write about launchpad infrastructure code in detail.20:22
faassenSteveA: you need to get the code out there.20:22
faassenSteveA: you need to get stuff into the zope 3 core.20:22
faassenSteveA: any chance you'll be able to slip something in before 3.2?20:22
JonexSteveA: ~Maybe the design is to complex? :P20:22
benji_yorkI've thought about egg-ifying Z3, but don't think it will be very useful20:23
SteveAfaassen: yes, i'd love to, but probably after 3.2, realistically.20:23
faassenSteveA: well, that's at least a more solid idea of when you're going to. I'll try to hold you to it. :)20:23
runyagaegg-ifying z3 isnt as important and having z3 products such as psycopgda and friends having eggs20:24
Jonexbenji_york: Why not? If not considering anything else, it'll help increase awareness of eggs.20:24
runyagathat zope3 use eggs20:24
benji_yorkright, runyaga20:24
benji_yorkJonex, because Z3 isn't "library" enough for an egg to make sence, it is more like something you would install eggs /into/20:25
SteveAZ3 darn well should be very "library"20:25
mgedminz3 ought to be a collection of libraries20:26
SteveAwhen it is packaged for debian etc, it is packaged as z3 libraries and the stuff to install instances20:26
SteveAand using python eggs will make that easier20:26
SteveAand so see zope3 better packaged in linux distros20:26
faassenbenji_york: eggs support that.20:27
faassenbenji_york: eggs support a plugin architecture.20:27
faassenbenji_york: I think it makes a lot of sense to make z3 into eggs. the idea of zpkg is also independent packaging of subcomponents.20:27
JonexCould I expect to be producing working zope code within short time from starting to learn it, if I have experience with other frameworks as RoR and Django?20:27
faassenbenji_york: so that the idea of what's core and what's not is more diffuse. eggs can support that vision very well.20:27
benji_yorkSteveA and mgedmin, maybe it's just my mental model; the way I use Z320:27
benji_yorkfaassen, eggs support installing an application (that might include it's own copy of Python)?20:28
faassenJonex: I don't know how fast you can do it with RoR or Django. It's not very hard to produce working z3 code.20:28
faassenbenji_york: not its own version of Python. why'd you want to do that?20:29
benji_yorkJonex, yep.20:29
faassenbenji_york: eggs support installing libraries and python applications.20:29
Jonexfaassen: That hard part is finding out how I guess. :) (well, I'm following the quickstart now, I hope that will do it)20:29
faassenthe main limitation of eggs (but it's something that's only half in its purview anyway) is that including binary dependencies (like libxml2 in case of lxml) is not out of the box easy.20:30
faassenJonex: well, no matter where you end up, please send feedback. if you feel it doesn't help you, please let us know too.20:30
faassenJonex: then we can do something to correct it.20:30
benji_yorkfaassen: each "buildout" of our products has it's own Python (generally)20:31
SteveAthe nice thing about eggs as i understand it is that it allows you to have an interface to the operating system's package management system20:31
SteveAso, the OS can deal with installing a suitable version of libxml220:31
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faassenSteveA: I didn't understand that, and I asked PJE.20:32
faassenSteveA: you can do stuff like that with setuptools, but I can't really have libxml2 shift out from under me, and for the case of windows, I'd like to include it.20:33
faassenSteveA: and for zope3, if lxml is a dependency, I want easy_install zope3..20:33
faassenSteveA: to install everything, including libxml2, the works, if needed.20:33
SteveAthe packagers of zope for debian and ubuntu will make a libxml2 library a dependency20:33
faassenSteveA: oh, how come?20:33
faassenSteveA: oh, you mean that linux packagers will do that.20:33
mgedminJonex, it is not difficult to start with Z3 if you're following the current Zope 3 mental model (pseudo-CMS)20:33
faassenSteveA: yeah, sure.20:33
SteveAbecause that's what an operating system's packaging system is for20:33
faassenSteveA: but that doesn't help adoption.20:34
SteveAsure it does20:34
SteveAit makes it easy for people to have things work out of the box on ubuntu20:34
faassenSteveA: yes, that's true.20:34
SteveAallows the ubuntu devs to do decent QA on the packages20:34
SteveAallows the packages to be small20:34
faassenSteveA: it just doesn't help the use case where someone works against some unreleased version of zope 3, or at least an unpackaged version.20:34
SteveAwe should aim to help packagers where we can20:34
faassenSteveA: there's something nice about easy_install turbogears20:35
* SteveA points at grumpy groundhog20:35
benji_yorkfaassen, you might be interested in the buildout code.  It includes "recipes" for dependencies.  (one of the dependencies we build in one of our product buildouts is libxml2)20:35
faassenSteveA: yeah, that might help. :)20:35
faassenmy main interest is to get libxml2 into Zope 3.20:35
SteveA"grumpy" is the set of ubuntu packages build daily from the CVS or whatever20:35
faassenif the dependency management is deemed too hard by Jim & co, then it won't be a dependency.20:35
SteveAthe linux packagers will need to do the work of separating them anyway20:36
SteveAit causes a security nightmare to have various different C libraries around when you could have just one20:36
SteveAand not being clear what's included where20:36
SteveAzlib is an example of that20:36
* SteveA would invite niemeyer to join the discussion if he weren't so busy20:37
faassenSteveA: I understand, and I agree, but I don't think I can convince Jim with that argument.20:37
faassenSteveA: if I tell Jim,you can safely make lxml a dependency of zope 3 core stuff, because the linux packagers will package the right thing.20:38
faassenSteveA: then I think Jim won't be convinced.20:38
faassenSteveA: perhaps you can convince him. :)20:38
SteveAlinux packages will do this anyway.  it's just whether you allow them to work with a small or with a large diff from what zope3 does.20:39
faassenSteveA: I wasn't planning on making lxml hard to package for anyone.20:40
faassenSteveA: I'm just pointing out that my goal here may not be satisfied by saying 'just trust the linux packagers' to jim.20:40
* SteveA looks to see if it is ubuntu yet20:40
faassenSteveA: it's not to my knowledge, but I may be wrong.20:40
J1mI've heard that lxml uses the most very recent version of libxml.20:41
SteveAfaassen: i'd like to get this packaged for "universe" for breezy if possible20:41
faassenJ1m: that's not really true anymore, as we're lagging behind a few versions.20:41
faassenSteveA: that'd be cool. it shouldn't be very hard to package.20:41
faassenJ1m: that is, I guess it works fine with newer versions, and if you need the xml schema improvements in libxml2 then you need a later version.20:41
SteveAprovided the libxml2 dependency is met20:41
niemeyerSteveA: Here20:42
SteveAhi gustavo20:42
J1mAnyway, I worry that by making even recent versions if libxml a prerequisite for zope 3, we'll be saying that you need a recent version of linux to use zope320:42
SteveAi've just been talking to faassen about packaging issues20:42
benji_yorkso what happens when you are developing two apps that require different versions of libxml220:42
J1mRight now, Zope 3 runs on lots of platforms.20:43
SteveAbut i'm getting out of my depth ;-)20:43
niemeyerSteveA: Not "so busy" here.. :) How can I help?20:43
faassenright now lxml has been developed against 2.6.16, latest release is 2.6.2220:43
J1mI'm worries about drastically reducing the number of platforms that can readily run zope 3.20:43
faassenand since libxml2 doesn't tend to break apis there's not a problem with 2.6.22 either.20:43
faassenJ1m: the main worry would be windows. unless you're concerned about non-free unices.20:43
faassenMac OS X has had success reports, we got it running too.20:44
SteveAJ1m: this is the point of having zope releases.  the linux OSes package a released version of zope3, and libxml20:44
J1mI couldn't easily get it running on fedora core 1.20:44
SteveAbut there's no separate libxml in zope320:44
faassenfedora core 1 uses a version of libxml2 from when? :)20:44
J1mI don't know.20:44
J1mLots of people now run zope with old os versions.20:45
SteveAi'm very keen to make zope3 work well on ubuntu20:45
Jonexfaassen: I certainly hope OSX works, otherwise I'll have to use something else but Zope3... :)20:45
J1m(Let alone stuff like hpux and sunos)20:45
J1mI want zope 3 to work well on ubunto too.20:45
J1mBut I'd like it to run well elsewhere too.20:46
faassenlibxml2 *builds* just about anywhere.20:46
SteveAi think it depends whether you're offering zope3 as a thing to install from outside of the OS's packaging system and its metadata20:46
SteveAor whether the OS project cooperates with you in packaging it20:46
J1mfaassen, it gets complicated when your os has an existing libxml.20:46
faassenJ1m: I know.20:46
SteveAso, you might say "to get zope 3.2 on fedora, get this package with all included, on ubuntu, just install it using apt-get install python-zope3"20:47
J1mSteveA, zope 3 is used on lots of OSs for which no one is packaging zope 3.20:47
J1mIt hasn't been a big deal in the past.20:47
* niemeyer is floating in the discussion..20:47
J1mI'm worried that lxml will raise the bar too much.20:47
niemeyerIt seems like any other traditional package dependency..20:48
SteveAso, i'm suggesting to use some kind of metadata thing like pythoneggs / setup tools for this if possible20:48
SteveAso that it is easy for packagers to split up the dependencies20:48
J1mI *want* lxml to be used in zope 3 -- but I don't want to cut off lots of potential users.20:48
J1mI'm hoping that eggs will somehow rescue us. :)20:48
faassenI expect fedora core 1 used libxml2 2.6.2, or 2.6.1. that's a release from november 2003.20:48
JonexWhat's the xml for?20:48
faassenJ1m: well, eggifying things libxml2 will be hard, I know that.20:49
faassenJonex: the xml is to do xml stuff. :)20:49
J1mJonex, the reason to make it a requirement would be to allow us to use xpath in test assertions.20:49
benji_york(amongst many other things)20:50
faassenyou could also do fun stuff like XSLT templating. it'd open a lot of possibilities.20:50
J1mfaassen, I don't see that as a reason to make it a requirement.20:50
faassenJ1m: not any single one thing, no.20:50
Jonexfaassen: Ah, like inverse compression: Hello, World-> <xml><message><word>Hello,</word> <word>World</word><message></xml>20:50
faassenJonex: please, I've heard enough xml bashing to last me a lifetime.20:51
Jonexfaassen: There can't be to much xml bashing :p20:51
J1mfaassen, the only reason to make it a requirement imo is to support test assertions. :)20:52
faassenJonex: I think you should branch out into HTTP bashing. it's also a flawed protocol that has a lot of hype.20:52
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faassenJ1m: well, I think the other reason is that suddenly you can do a lot of XML programming right on top of the core platform. but that won't convince you. :)20:52
faassenJ1m: it's like having the standard library.20:52
mgedminusing doctest ELLIPSIS matching against a part of the document is MUCH MUCH nicer than matching against the whole20:53
niemeyerfaassen: I don't see that as a reason either.. if I want to have a ot of XML programming on top of the core platform I'll just install it myself..20:53
Jonexfaassen: Well, really, XML isn't that flawed, it's just a bit overused in situations where it doesn't have to. It's certainly ok for storing structured content like html.20:53
mgedminxpath is a pretty nice way to get a part of the document that you want to look at20:53
faassenniemeyer: you're mostly right.20:53
mgedminJonex, yep20:54
mgedminZope Page Templates win a lot from using XML20:54
JonexThey do?20:54
mgedminI once tried to use EJB... *shudder*  that's an XML nightmare20:55
J1mFor the record, I'm +1 on zope xml support.20:55
J1mFor the record, I'm also +1 on zope relational database support, but we don't require a RDB to use Zope.20:55
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dokoSteveA: hi20:56
faassenJ1m: that's a good point, though the comparison between a C library and a separate server is a bit unfair. :)20:57
runyagawhat abotu sqlite20:57
runyagadoesnt require a separate server?20:57
runyagaits sane, FAST, and has good python support20:58
runyagagadfly is a nightmare20:58
faassenrunyaga: if we can lick the lxml packaging issue, then we go there next? :)20:58
runyagahow about all at once?20:58
faassenrunyaga: how does it work with multiple threads?20:58
faassenrunyaga: if you're going to do the work? :)20:58
runyagaahh packaging it for z3?20:58
faassenrunyaga: evolution, not revolution!20:58
faassenrunyaga: yeah, let's package step by step. :)20:58
runyagano problem for me20:59
runyagai'm all abotu incermental20:59
runyagaas long as its not every 6 months incremental20:59
* faassen grins.20:59
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run|awaygotta split..20:59
faassenrun|away: see you20:59
faassenI am splitting too. :)20:59
* faassen waves.20:59
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SteveAfaassen: i'd like you and doko to talk about packaging lxml for ubuntu21:01
SteveAdarn, my irc connection has become laggy21:01
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SteveAdoko: that didn't work out :-)21:03
dokoSteveA: no haste ...21:03
SteveAi'll find the repository for lxml and let you know what it is21:03
* SteveA finds it
niemeyerAh, he's the binding author.. :)21:09
* MacYET_ grumbles 21:10
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niemeyerlxml is a nice idea21:11
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J1msrichter, benji and gary say that testbrowser currently inclused all of it's dependencies.21:33
J1msrichter, benji and gary say that testbrowser currently includes all of it's dependencies.21:33
srichterthat's cool21:33
mphm, what happened to my zca? did it make its way to you?21:33
J1meventually, the author of the dependencies will:21:33
srichterso when I merge it, I simply add the necessary license headers to LICENSES.txt21:33
J1m- incorporate our changes21:33
J1m- release under zpl21:34
srichteroh, he will?21:34
J1mat which time, we'll integrate them differently.21:34
J1mgood point wrt LICENSES.txt.21:34
benji_yorksrichter, they're currently BSD21:34
J1mmp, who are you?21:34
srichteryeah, I remember21:34
mpI'm me, Maciej Pietrzak that is21:35
J1mHow did you send it?21:35
mpsnail mail21:36
J1mI don't think we've received it yet.21:36
J1mBut I'll double check21:36
J1mwhen did you send it?21:37
J1mFrom where? :)21:37
mpPoland, Warsaw21:38
mpand afaik it was simple snail mail (no priorities or other special features), so it may take a while21:39
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J1mmp, when did you send it?21:39
mpDate: Sep 18, 2005 3:18 PM21:39
J1mI'm sure it's not here then.21:40
mpok :)21:40
* J1m doesn't understand why it takes so long to deliver paper in this day and age.... but it seems to21:41
* drzoltron_ recommends the "print-pdf-sign-it-scan-it-and-mail-it-to-the-right-jim"21:41
drzoltron_.. way21:41
J1mThat is definately the fastest, along with faxing21:42
drzoltron_and the right Jim's response time is sensational ;)21:42
J1mmost of the time. :)21:43
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mpwhich Jim is not right?21:53
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drzoltron_jim at zope.org21:55
mpwhich Jim is right, then21:55
jukartNo, jim at !21:56
jukartsee :
mpI might have sent it to wrong address to21:58
mpbut that was long time ago anyway21:58
drzoltron_jukart: exactly,  mp asked for the wrong J1m ;)21:59
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mpwho gets all that mail from .org anyway?22:04
J1mThere are very few valid email addresses.22:05
J1mPretty much just mailing lists.22:05
drzoltron_it didn't bounce back, so someone must have gotten it22:05
J1mgood point.22:06
J1mI don't know. :)22:06
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mgedminbenji_york, did you get my email (about quick_start.txt)?22:40
benji_yorkyep, just haven't had time to respond yet (although I did run the spelling correctinos through Vim :)22:41
mgedminno hurry, I just wanted to know if my email got through22:42
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srichterok, so I am going to work on the final testbrowser move22:49
srichterbenji_york: where is ClientCookie in zope.testbrowser? :-)22:50
benji_yorkhmm, let me see22:50
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benji_yorkit's not included22:51
srichterok, but I think it is needed for mechanize22:51
benji_yorkit is, I'd say just add it for now22:51
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srichterin zope.testbrowser?22:51
benji_yorkand when we redo the packaging we can fix it22:51
srichterok, and I do the sys.modules magic22:52
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