IRC log of #zope3-dev for Friday, 2005-10-07

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J1mWaaaaaaa. Zope 3 tests are broken. Waaaaa00:37
mpwhich one zope3? release?00:37
J1mThe new testbrowser code has a failing import00:38
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febbHi all01:31
febbanyone experienced with Zope 3.1.0 database adatpter for Postgresql ?01:32
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xenrufebb: is there any problem?01:47
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runyagazcml is so opaque ;-(01:48
runyagai feel like i'm stabbing in the dark01:48
xenrurunyaga: feel the same01:49
runyagayay!! it worked01:49
runyagagood lord01:49
runyagaw/o python skills your d00med01:49
xenrumay be good IDE will change situation01:49
runyagadoubt that01:51
xenruIf IDE will auto generate all code ;)01:52
runyagaif IDE will plug into my brain and do my work01:52
xenruyeah ;)01:52
xenruthen let it also go to the market and bay food01:54
gnosisfood? whats that?01:55
gnosishi all01:55
xenruwe talking about IDE for zope301:56
gnosisthat would be cool01:56
xenruI think it must auto generate zcml and bay food01:56
runyagaSPE is cool01:56
gnosisdoubt i'll see one in my lifetime ;)01:56
gnosisSPE is good, that is what i use01:56
xenrurunyaga think it must be pluged-in mind01:56
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xenrumy favorite is WingIDE01:57
gnosisi'm a programming retard, not sure pluggining it into my mind will work01:57
gnosiscost money doesn't it xenru?01:57
xenrugnosis: yes it cost some money01:58
gnosisi just spent my yearly budget on phillipes book..... should be here on the 13th or so01:58
xenruCode Intelligence spee-up my development02:00
gnosisCode Intelligence?02:00
gnosiscool, i'll check it out02:01
gnosis35 bucks isn't that bad02:02
gnosisperhaps i can find it in my budget02:02
runyagatry spe02:05
runyagastani python editor02:05
runyagareally nice02:05
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gnosiswhats the diff between pro and personal? you know?02:10
gnosisnever mind, found the info02:11
gnosislooks really good xenru02:16
xenruauto-complete save my time02:17
gnosisyea, i love that.... just nice not to have to read manuals to figure out what methods are available02:18
gnosisi don't see anywhere to just run the current file02:21
gnosisoh... same as debug02:27
gnosisthat is different from others02:27
xenruin IDE you need to run only if you need to debug02:27
gnosisright :)02:27
gnosisjust different from what i'm used to02:28
xenrusorry I need to sleep, in Moscow 3:27 now02:28
gnosismuch more polished than spe or pywin02:28
gnosisnice chatting, take care02:28
xenrui like it02:28
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gdsgdsgvddI am working on zope 3.0.1, trying to create a form -- kind of registration form for some set of seminars07:27
gdsgdsgvddthe form has to have a constraint  that-- one user cannot select more than 3 seminars07:27
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gdsgdsgvddhow do i create some choice functionality in the form for the user to select more than one option from a list07:28
gdsgdsgvddcan someone help me with this please07:28
philiKONso, you're using schema-based editforms?07:29
gdsgdsgvddi was thinking of using list07:29
philiKONthen say  List(..., max_length=3)07:30
philiKONin your schema07:30
gdsgdsgvddbut i need the user to see a list of options and a check box infront of each option.. for the user to select07:30
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gdsgdsgvddand the user should not be able to select more than 3 options at a time07:31
gdsgdsgvddmakes sense??07:31
philiKONyes, sort of07:32
philiKONi suggest a different approach then07:32
philiKONthe list of seminars comes from a vocabulary07:33
gdsgdsgvddthe list will be static..07:33
philiKONstatic as in set-in-stone into the python code?07:33
philiKONthen put it into the interface07:34
philiKONuse a lot of Bools07:34
philiKONwell, not just a lot. use a Bool for every seminar07:34
gdsgdsgvddcan you elaborate a little......:)07:34
philiKONclass ISelectSeminars(Interface):07:35
philiKON    seminar1 = Bool(title=u"Seminar1")07:35
philiKON    seminar2 = Bool(title=u"Seminar 2")07:35
gdsgdsgvddthen where does this get called07:36
gdsgdsgvddi am sorry.. i am a stater...07:36
philiKONman, i dont' have the time right now to explain all of zope 307:36
philiKONthere's some good documentation out there07:36
philiKONwhen i doubt, read http://worldcookery.com07:36
gdsgdsgvddthanks... that will help07:37
gdsgdsgvddhey.. , just one quick question07:44
gdsgdsgvddhow to limit the user from not selecting more than 3 options07:44
gdsgdsgvddwill, using TAL condition attribute in work07:45
philiKONi don't think so07:46
gdsgdsgvddok.. thanks07:46
febbHola  nuevamente.08:05
zagyso philiKON, how are you?08:16
philiKONpretty good, thank you08:17
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bob2should 3.1 work with python 2,4?08:42
MacYET_what is the recommended version?08:47
philiKONrecommended is 2.3.508:53
philiKONbut it works equally well with 2.4.108:53
MacYET_but trunk does no longer work with 2.308:53
bob2hm, I thought mechtest was in the trunk08:53
MacYET_z3 hacken ist wie g├╝lle entsorgen08:54
philiKONMacYET_, no, the trunk requires python2.408:59
philiKONbob2, yes, zope.testbrowser08:59
philiKONMacYET_, lol08:59
MacYET_philiKON: tarek and i really had our fun yesterday09:00
MacYET_torturing our brains with weird interface constructions09:00
MacYET_just for doing a stupid task :)09:00
philiKONyup. of course, you were crawling through the cooling vents and cable ducts :)09:00
MacYET_the whole z3 publisher looks like a piece of **** packed together and secured with duct tape09:04
MacYET_just kidding09:04
philiKONbut it's good that it's getting detangled by srichter, J1m and you guys09:05
philiKONthe whole WSGI compliance thing made the publisher itself simpler09:05
philiKONor, let's at least say, it made the API clearer09:05
MacYET_we#re just doing a tiny part09:05
MacYET_and introducing more and more interface09:06
MacYET_sick world :)09:06
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sm"Break Zope3 free from the bowels of the development section on We are at the second release, yet it is still not presented as a viable environment by"09:27
d2mhear, hear09:27
philiKONsm, i couldn't have said it better09:27 is doomed09:27
MacYET_dig a hole, burry it09:28
d2mtried already ?09:28
philiKONsm, others like martijn and myself have advocated a decent zope 3 home on for  years09:28
philiKONi don't think i like a separate website09:28
philiKONzope 2 and zope 3 are supposed to converge09:28
philiKONwhy diverge for the project websitees?09:28
smwhat does it take to kill, is what I wonder09:28
MacYET_some quys are working on a collaboration site at the sprint09:28
philiKONMacYET_, yes, so i heard. i really wish this had been discussed openly before09:29
philiKONMacYET_,  you know, we require a freakin' proposal for every little code detail...09:29
philiKONbut administrative things like that are just "decided"...09:29
MacYET_philiKON: not my job:)09:29
MacYET_the more you propose, the more you discuss -> nothing will happen :)09:30
bob2hm, trunk feels snappier when loading pages than 3.0 did09:31
smno offense intended btw d2m - you and others have done fine work on it09:31
smbut it needs to be replaced with something simpler09:31
d2mnevermind, i heard srichter talking on a distinct (and its already live, well somehow)09:32
philiKONthere used to be one09:32
philiKONhe built it with an alpha of x3 3.009:32
philiKONages ago09:32
philiKONselfhosting zope 3 is fine to me09:32
smhowever this is noone's fault but Jim's and other ZC heads09:32
philiKONi just don't think we just split into and zope3.org09:32
smthe zope 3 wiki's url is a joke09:32
* sm rants09:32
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d2mlessions learned from cmf.zope.org09:33
philiKONmartijn and i have been suggesting to physically move it at least to
philiKONover the past 14 months or so09:33
MacYET_take plone for :)=09:33
philiKONkill zope3.org09:33
philiKONmake a good home for both zope 2 and zope 309:33
philiKONwe want convergence, damnit09:33
d2mi'm with you09:34
smdo you think total convergence of the sites/docs is a good idea ? won't that be too confusing for good while yet ?09:34
philiKONZope 2 will evolve and include more and more zope 3 technology09:34
philiKONit already does09:34
philiKONso, why try to rpesent the image of two separate zope systems?09:35
philiKONwhy still treat zope 3 like the alien and have a separate websitge for it?09:35
MacYET_at the end zope 2 is fat enough to eat zope 3 completely09:35
smwell that's what I was saying earlier09:35
philiKONmy point is, if we want people to actually evaluate whether they should use Zope 2+Five, CMF2, Zope 3 or whatever, we need a central place where they can find out about this technology09:36
smit seems to be going that way, since most zope users want to keep their z2 investment09:36
philiKONthe Most-FAQ nowadays is " which zope should i use? 2 or 3?"09:36
smbut re sites - philiKON I agree with you, except I'm not sure how to document both (all) versions in one place and not be confusing09:36
philiKONthis needs to be the top headline on a new zope.org09:36
smthat nuxeo z2 vs z3 faq was good, did you see09:37
philiKONit was okay09:37
philiKONif i hav esome time, i'll write some comments on it09:37
MacYET_reminds me of a dilbert "which database should be buy? a green or a blue one?"09:37
philiKONsm, i don't think the docs won't be too confusing. if the layout and structure of the site is clear and not too complex (like it is now), people will understand what they're reading docs about09:38
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smphiliKON, but you're right, we just have to figure out a way09:38
d2mwe need to check whats in the bag from ZF for first09:38
bob2so, does ZODB store objects, or just all the attributes of an object?09:38
smwe can't afford to focus on more than one site09:38
philiKONbob2, well. it stores pickles09:39
philiKONbob2, and pickles usually recreate the whole object09:39
philiKONbob2, unless you chose not to have it do that09:39
d2mbtw, #zope-web is a nice place to talk related things09:39
philiKONsm, exactly!! also my point09:39
philiKONsm, at least we have some volunteers for who will volunteer to work for
bob2philiKON: so, of I update the definition of a class (say add an attribute), will it be defined on reconsitututed objects?09:40
philiKONbob2, depends on where you add the attribute09:40
smthe sites will attract volunteers to the degree they make it easy for volunteers to get things done09:40
bob2philiKON: is the class-attribute vs set-in-__init__ difference important?09:40
philiKONbob2, of course09:40
philiKONbob2, set in __init__ means they're set on self. that's the object09:41
philiKONbob2, old objects won't have those attributes, of course09:41
philiKONbob2, if it's in the class level, they will all have it09:41
philiKONsm, d2m, i just wish that this sort of discussion we're having now had been the matter of a public IRC chat in the zope community. the fact that we have to hear through gossip that people are working on a new site sucks09:42
philiKONbut it's stereotypical of the zope community, in a way09:42
smphiliKON: I think people are burned out from past attempts to work together, on zope-web list etc.09:43
smthere's a feeling that skunkworks projects can make more progress09:43
smat least to break the logjam09:44
philiKONreminds me of how zope3 started out09:44
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febbHi all again.09:56
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bob2it'd be so much less annoying if z3labs had real live demos10:03
bob2instead of craptacular flash10:03
philiKONtell them10:04
* MacSprint is throwing away yesterdays work10:04
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MacSprintdo you say "mimetype" or "content-type" in z3?10:08
philiKONdepends on what you mean10:09
philiKONa content type is typically an interface marked with IContentType10:09
MacSprintrequest mimetypes10:09
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philiKONthat's a mime type to me10:10
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MacSprintis there some kind of generic registry to register multiple objects under the same key (sorted)?10:16
philiKONutility registry?10:17
philiKONkey -> interface10:18
philiKONsort -> by name10:18
MacSprintI have multiple objects i need to register under the same key but I must keep the ordering10:22
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MacSprintbasicially a registry of key -> ordered_list_of_things10:22
philiKONyeah, what's wrong with using the utility registry for that and sorting by name?10:23
MacSprintthe utility registry keeps track of the sort order at registration time?10:24
philiKONthe utility registry doesn't order at all10:25
MacSprintwriting my own one .)10:25
philiKONthe utility registry just registers (Interface, name) -> some object10:25
philiKONyou can use the 'name' to order things10:26
philiKONdon't reinvent the wheel if you don't have to...10:26
MacSprinthaha, this advice coming from your mouth? :-)10:26
MacSprintthat's not z3ish10:26
philiKONit's very z3ish10:26
MacSprintuse you register utils as handler1, handler2, handler3 and determine the order by sorting by name?10:27
philiKONwhy not10:28
philiKONwhat are handler1, handler2, etc.?10:28
MacSprintbecause handler10 < handler110:28
MacSprintalphasorting sux with numbers :)10:28
philiKONah, 'handler1' are their names?10:28
philiKONwell choose better names :)10:29
philiKONor just use str'ed integers and int them back for sorting10:29
MacSprinthm....this is z3ish?10:29
philiKONanyways, what kind of objects are you registering there anyways?10:29
philiKONprobably not10:29
MacSprintanyway...utilites sux for our purpose10:30
philiKONok, what's your purpose anyways?10:30
philiKONwhat sorts of objects are we talking about here?10:30
MacSprintlet me code and don't ask :)10:30
philiKONhey, you asked for some advice, dude10:30
MacSprintyeah but utility registration is not the right way to  do...10:31
* MacSprint is away: Blicket auf zum Retterblick, Alle reuig Zarten, Euch zu sel'gem Glueck, Dankend umzuarten!10:31
philiKONif you say so...10:31
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JonexTranslate? In what way, is Swedish needed?11:08
philiKONJonex, sure!11:09
philiKONJonex, zope 3 has a UI11:09
philiKONwhich can appear in different languages11:09
philiKONe.g. in Swedish11:09
philiKONsashav has been working on it, AFAIK11:10
philiKONbut not too much apparently11:10
philiKONsee here:
* sashav hides in his work11:10
JonexHmm, won't load for me atm.11:13
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JonexWhen it says, @currently published elsewhere@ should I copy it from there if the translation is corect?@11:16
JonexAlso, how do I get context?11:17
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philiKONJonex, what are you talking about regarding "currently published elsewhere" ?11:24
JonexphiliKON: it says so on the translation page for some items.11:25
d2mwill the SourceTypes be restricted to plain,stx and rest ? do you think about adding html and xml ?11:25
philiKONd2m, what would those source renderers do?11:25
philiKONJonex, ah, that. i'm not 100% sure what that means, maybe you can ask on #launchpad. the guys will tell you11:26
philiKONJonex, now, your second question: which context are you talking about?11:26
d2mhtml could run the text through htmltidy, xml could check for wellformedness11:26
philiKONa) htmltidy isn't isntalled on every system. zope 3 should not behave differnetly either if htmltidy was installed or not11:27
philiKONb) renderers are supposed to produce html11:27
JonexphhiliKON: An english word usually can be translated to different swedish ones depending on the context they are used in.11:27
philiKONd2m, checking wellformedness is not the task of a renderer11:27
philiKONd2m, this is really something like a schema constraint when storing the data11:28
philiKONJonex, ah, yes. the "Located in" is the context we have right now. i'm afraid it won't get much better than that11:29
d2mphiliKON: i see, so html could just pass through and xml could produce a html rep of the xml source then11:29
philiKONd2m, yes, html would just pass through (maybe converted to xhtml at least with python's included batteries, if possible). as for xml, i don't really know what the right thing there is to do11:30
philiKONso, let's not worry about xml11:30
philiKONunless you have a usecase?!?11:30
Jonex Hmm, there doesn't seem to be any order of priority of what should be changedm that's bad since I guess some things are more important than others?11:30
d2mjust add the formats to your component11:30
philiKONyeah, but what's your usecase for XML input?11:30
d2mphiliKON: not to have to use a file for that11:31
philiKONif you just want the XML sourcecode printed in the browser, you could choose the plaintext input method, right?11:31
d2mphiliKON: ok, did not try that11:31
philiKONJonex, yeah, sort of... zope3 should have different domains, especially for the demos.11:31
JonexIs there any mirror of the win libraries for zope3 somewhere? (
philiKONi don't think so :(11:33
philiKONJonex, btw, you can also export the translations to a .po file and edit them using poedit or kbabel11:33
philiKONi found this much more comfortable11:33
JonexOk, I'll look at it when I get home. :)11:38
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JonexWhat was the command that had to be used when you follow the quick start in Windows?11:44
JonexHmm, oh, I guesss only benjji knows, he's not here atm. :/11:45
JonexWhy is the zope site so slow?11:48
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philiKONVladDrak, hi. might wanna come to #z3-base for a sec to get together with andres? he's also an sqlos user...12:04
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Jonex"error: Python was built with version 7.1 of Visual Studio, and extensions need t"12:21
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Jonex"o be built with the same version of the compiler, but it isn't installed."12:22
JonexWhat is that? Do I have to get vosial Studio to use zope?12:22
VladDrakdoes anyone know anything about ajung's publication work?12:22
faassenJonex: I suspect you're asking to compile Zope.12:22
VladDraklooks usefull for my amfserver code (currently using the same hacks as jsonserver)12:22
faassenJonex: but I don't know mucha bout windows.12:23
Jonexfaasen: Well, I had to do that when I tried it at home yesterday or it wouldn't work for me. It was benji_york that helped me then.12:24
JonexIt worked then, but that was on a another computer with Visual Studio installed.12:24
JonexThe command: python -q build_ext -i install_data --install-dir .12:25
faassenthat is a command to build the C extnensions.12:25
Jonex:/ Can't they have them built?12:25
faassenJonex:  you appear to be typing the linux command.12:26
faassenJonex: didn't you download the compiled C extensions yesterday?12:26
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faassen, unzip them into root of zope checkout.12:29
faassenit sucks there's no zope 3 windows installer though.12:29
srichterfor the releases there is12:31
faassenokay, then the quickstart guide shouldn't talk aobut svn.12:31
faassenI think the main reason it does is formlib.12:31
faassenbut that's a fundamental issue with the quickstart guide; wish it talked about the release.12:31
faassengood to know the releases have a windows installer; should've realized it does as the announcement said so.12:32
srichterjinty has developed a nightly TAR ball builder for SchoolTool that we could probably do that for Zope 3 as well12:32
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srichterin fact we use that TAR ball for testing12:33
jintysrichter: I got tom to donate some schooltool cpu cycles. So soon I will be building nightly zope 3 tarballs.12:39 --skip-functional is not working?12:39
faassenjinty: that'd be cool.12:40
jintynot going to distribute them, only test12:40
jintyI have most of the setup already, but somehow the test runner can't find any tests:(12:40
JonexFaasen I hav downloaded those files, but it didn't help.12:43
JonexShould I use the release insted, will I still be able to follow the quick start guide?12:44
mgedminJonex, the start guide needs zope.formlib, which is not in the release12:44
JonexSo I guess I'll have to get a compiler?12:45
mgedminI think it would be really simple to just copy that package from the checkout to the release (I'm sure it doesn't use extension modules)12:45
JonexThe releaqse use Python 2.4 right?12:45
mgedminJonex, how about getting a real operating system?12:45
mgedminthe 3.1 release runs both with 2.3 and 2.412:46
mgedminthere are precompiled extension modules for Win32 for both 2.3 and 2.412:46
mgedminbut Zope Corp. officially supports only 2.312:46
VladDrakformlib isn't complex to install but its not trivial either12:47
Jonexmgedmin, I'm not sure the persons using this computer to RIP printing films would appreciate if I installed Linux.12:47
mgedminain't it fun...12:47
VladDrakit requires 2.4 and needs to be installed in your zope/ folder, not your instance's lib/python12:47
JonexI think this should be mentioned in the quick start. I'm probably not the only one running Windows without Visual Studio...12:48
* mgedmin still thinks using the precompiled .pyd files would be the easiest way12:48
d2mregarding formlib: did you manage to install it in the instance ? i had to copy it to lib/python/zope in the base install12:48
JonexWich ones? WhenI used those I got a traceback. benji_yourk told me to run that command, then it worked.12:49
JonexI really want to start coding. Should I use something else instead, and hope that Zope3 gets more mature in time for my next project?12:51
philiKONzope 3.1 is pretty mature12:52
JonexNot documentation-wise.12:53
JonexThe only start documentation I find is a weird pdf slideshow thingy, that's not really usable.12:54
JonexI've spent all morning trying to get this up, if I'd used TurboGears I would have a simple system doing what I want running by now. :/12:54
philiKONJonex, http://worldcookery.com12:54
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* mgedmin waits for srichter to pitch his book...12:55
JonexphiliKON it'll take a week to get that...12:55
mgedmin is taking ages to appear in my browser...12:56
philiKONJonex, i doubt that... tried your local book store?12:56
JonexphiliKON, I haven't looked, but I really doubt that they even have a book about Python, they may have a "Java for Dummies"...12:57
* mgedmin decides that is down12:58
philiKONJonex, i'm not saying they have it in stock, but in germany, most local book stores (even in the country side) can order books within 24 hours, foreign books might take a day longer12:58
Jonexmgedmin, it isn't it's randomly down.12:58
philiKONlet's decide that it's down and be done with it :)12:58
philiKONJonex, there's a good tutorial by Jeff Shell that is offline right now. he's granted me permission to put it up on my site but i haven't recieved the text from him yet12:59
JonexphiliKON: They usually can't get books faster than I can by order on the web. Also, I'm not very thick on money atm. :/ I'd really want to be sure I'm gonna use Zope before I start buying expensive books.13:00
mgedminJonex, there's also the Zope 3 developers book that is available online (as HTML and as PDF), as well as in paper book form13:01
philiKONJonex, that's a good point of course13:01
philiKONright, but again, it depends on being up :(13:01 is up13:02 isn't13:02
mgedminactually, both are13:02
philiKONwell, don't worry, that'll change in a minute or two]13:02
JonexThat requires me to use make. I'm short on compilations tools at them moment.13:02
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JonexMaybe I could compile it at home and take the installation with me to here?13:03
philiKONJonex, if you're bound to windows, why not install cygwin?13:03
philiKONgives you a whole unix environmet13:03
philiKONand sets you free from windows limitations13:03
mgedminactually, I believe you can successfully build extension modules with mingw13:04
mgedminand those are compatible with the official python for win3213:04
mgedminat least that used to be the case with python 2.3 that used MSVC++ 613:04
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mgedmin(err, I'm not sure about the numbers)13:04
JonexWhere's the guide to do that then?13:04
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mgedminsomewhere in the distutils documentation13:05
JonexWhy isn't ther e a nightly installer?13:06
mgedmingood question13:06
mgedminperhaps it isn't simple to build automatically?13:06
philiKONand someone would have to donate some nightly windows CPU cycles13:07
mgedminusually, a nightly tarball/checkout, combined with Tim's precompiled PYDs, suffices13:07
philiKONmaybe ChrisW?13:07
mgedminI'm baffled as to why you are unable to use those13:07
* Jonex gives up and installs visual studio13:09
Jonex*tries to install13:10
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JonexEh, I think I'll use something else instead. What do you think works best, Ruby on Rails, TurboGears or Django for making an order handlng application?13:12
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mgedminwhatever you're most familiar with, I guess13:13
* mgedmin never used any of the three frameworks Jonex mentioned13:14
* mgedmin saw the TurboGears screencast once, and that's it13:14
d2mis it me or is it there problem with html entities in textarea ? '&amp;lt;'  modifies to '&lt;' and finaly to  '<' on third save -- how could this be verified ?13:15
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mgedmind2m, more context, please13:16
mgedmindo you use a TextWidget?13:16
d2mi tried it with zpt page and the edit widget13:17
mgedminlet me try...13:17
d2mdefault zope3.1 release13:17
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mgedmind2m, confirmed13:21
d2msame with 'file', content-type seems to make no difference13:22
mgedmind2m, can you file a bug on ?13:22
* mgedmin wants to check whether the URL is correct, but seems to be DOWN again!13:22
* mgedmin returns to work13:22
JonexWould it work better on OSX?13:23
JonexNothing seems to work on this computer. :/13:24
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philiKONJonex, sure. i'm developing zope3 on OSX13:25
philiKONworks like a charm. osx is an excellent development platform13:25
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* mgedmin has seen zope 3 starup taking 5x-10x slower on his coworker's powerbook than on his own thinkpad13:28
* mgedmin has seen his coworker struggle with fink and darwinports, and unable to get both pygtk and reportlab installed for any version of the python interpreter13:28
* mgedmin is therefore not convinced13:28
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philiKONmgedmin, yes, with certain C libraries it sucks13:36
philiKONexcellent python development platform13:36
philiKONi should say13:36
philiKONbut even with some of those hurdles, i've so far managed to get everything running, even weird Python<->Fortran stuff13:37
philiKONspeed is definitely an issue13:37
philiKONbut i didn't buy the powerbook only for speed13:37
philiKONas for fink and darwinports: i usually just use the latter one and it works fine, at least wrt python versions...13:38
* VladDrak 's had serious issues with fink13:38
VladDrakbut a very good recent experience with DP13:38
* VladDrak 's wondering wheter to buy some sort of mac again13:38
* philiKON is really looking forward to intel mac laptops next year13:38
JonexHmm, couldnt the zope parts that need compiling be recoded in Python instead?13:39
philiKONsome are actually coded in python and the C part just exists for optimization purposes13:39
philiKONsome aren't13:39
JonexWhile I'm developing I don't care about performance, I just want it to work. :/13:40
philiKONJonex, exactly13:41
mgedminOTOH low performance kills any chance of agility13:41
philiKONmgedmin, true. when the performance is very very poor13:41
mgedminwhen you have to restart zope 3 and wait 15 seconds before you can see whether your change to the view code works or not13:42
mgedminyou're tempted to switch to a different workspace and read mail/web13:42
Jonexmgedmin: Well, many framworks are written solely in Python without being too slow.13:42
JonexDoing away with the restartsd wouldn't hurt though. :)13:43
philiKONmgedmin, btw, most of the struggles one has compiling stuff for OSX used to be because of apple's stupid framework vs. shared library stuff. i've seen those problems go away more and more. darwinports seems to maneuvre around it nicely13:43
philiKONmgedmin, most of the problems i always have is that compile docs are for linux systems and i'm usually just missing another compile opiton or compat library for BSD systems13:43
* Jonex won't be able to write any code today either. :(13:45
JonexOh, now works again.13:45
mgedmineek, I hate subversion13:46
mgedminsometimes it is there, sometimes it is not13:47
mgedminand you don't know which until you try to observe13:47
mgedminum, perhaps that would be shroedinzope?13:47
philiKONheisenberg :)13:48
philiKONSchroedinger's Zope :)13:48
* mgedmin is not strong in physics13:48
JonexHmm, could I copy the files installed by the 3.1 installer to the svn checkout to get the compiled files?13:48
mgedminJonex, it would work, I think13:49
JonexWhere is the files put?13:49
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JonexThis is really annoying, there should be a downloadable version of the docs. So I won't have to rely on being online(wih it isn't very often)13:53
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philiKONmorning J1m13:53
d2mJonex: which docs ?13:53
philiKONJonex, there's a PDF13:54
d2mJonex: thers a link to a .pdf file (on top of the doc)13:54
Jonexpdfs aren't very readable on screen.13:54
philiKONthen print 'em13:54
JonexBut I'll download it, better than nothing.13:54
philiKONcosts you about 2 euros for the couple of chapters13:55
JonexI don't have access to a (cheap to use) good working printer atm, would need an usb coord. (I have to wonder, is every working place like this, or am I jus unlucky?)13:57
MacSprintwriting z3 tests is bloody job13:57
mgedminMacSprint, why?13:59
JonexDo someone hnappen to have the pdf downloaded?13:59
andresJonex, yes.13:59
MacSprintmgedmin: just the sprinting expericnce13:59
JonexCould you upload it somewhere temporaly so I could get it.14:00
philiKONMacSprint, stop writing javiotic tests. use doctests14:00
srichterphiliKON: but then they have to all write them from scratch14:00
srichterthat is not very sensable either14:00
Jonexdoctest syntax is so ugly. :/14:00
philiKONah, modifying existing tests?14:00
philiKONJonex, how so?>14:01
mgedminJonex, no it isn't!14:01
J1mWriting tests is hard. It's meta programming.14:01
srichteryep, I ask them to write new tests in a text file14:01
philiKONJonex, it's the interpreter syntax...14:01
srichterwhich Tarek will check in in a bit14:01
Jonex>>>'s isn;t very nice imo.14:01
MacSprintdoctest  suck when you need a bunch of setup code14:01
mgedminMacSprint, true14:01
Jonexandres: You could do that?14:01
mgedminbut you can pass setUp/tearDown functions to DocTestSuite14:02
J1mMacSprint, if the setup code isn't part of the story, then put it in the test file.14:02
* MacSprint continues writing unittests14:02
srichterwell, the point is that you want to document your setup14:02
andresJonex, yes, but will last a bit, my upstream is rather slow.14:02
mgedminor reduce coupling in the code and make your tests more isolated14:02
srichteron the other hand you can always write your test setup in a python file14:02
Jonexandres: Well better than the current 0kbps from ;)14:02
philiKONi actually try to have a "lead-in" and "lead-out" of my doctest story explaining the setup... when reading tests, i want to see what sorts of things need to be set up14:03
* J1m hates write-only tests -- which is why doctests are better,14:03
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mgedminI've abused doctests a bit in the past14:04
mgedminwhen you write a single long (hundreds of lines) doctest for a view class14:05
mgedminit becomes very hard to modify it later14:05
J1mHow so?14:05
mgedminnow I'm back to testing individual methods with separate doctests14:05
srichterJ1m: SchoolTool took testing to a new level :-)14:08
J1mHow so?14:09
andresShould be fast enough there.14:09
srichterin the sense of the amount of tests they have14:09
srichterwhat we really do in schooltool is to have two types of doctests14:09
srichter1. The doctests that provide the documentation of the code by going through an example14:10
J1mI'd still like mgedmin to explain how it became hard to modify the long doctest later.14:10
srichter2. have tests that cover all special and corner cases14:10
mgedminsrichter, I counted four types of doctests, actually ;)14:10
mgedmin3. Very short usage examples directly in docstrings of some functions14:10
J1msrichter, yes, that is the recommended way.14:10
mgedmin4. Functional tests14:10
andresJonex, say it, when youre done.14:10
mgedminJ1m, the problem is actually not the length, but the style14:11
mgedminI used to get carried away14:11
mgedmincreate a view class in the doctest14:11
mgedminrender it a few times14:11
mgedminwith different form parameters in the request14:11
mgedminand usually not bother calling individual view methods14:11
J1mIt's better to expose most of the view14:11
mgedminand even when I did call individual methods14:12
J1mIt's better to expose most of the view's functionality in python methods and test those.14:12
mgedminI'd do that as if I were writing a continuous story14:12
mgedmin"now we do that, and this bit here changes"14:12
mgedminthen later, when you need to change the code14:12
mgedminthere's no obvious place where to put the new test14:12
mgedminand if you change the accumulated state too much, subsequent doctest chunks may fail14:13
mgedminI've encountered the second problem with long functional doctests too14:13
mgedminwhen you need to test N different branches of the code14:13
mgedmina single long test that accumulates state doesn't work well14:14
Jonexandres: it14:15
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tekNicoHi, I get a ComponentLookupError at a late point in Benji York's quickstart, is there a way to see what adapters are available? A global registry somewhere?14:21
mgedminphiliKON, how?14:21
JonexYay! 3.1 worked!14:21
philiKONgetSiteManager().Adapters is the global registry isn't it14:21
mgedminJonex, yay!14:22
mgedminphiliKON, and what can you do with it?14:22
mgedminI once tried to enumerate all adapter registrations14:23
philiKONzope.component.getAdapters(obj, interface) gets you all registered adapters for obj -> interface14:23
mgedmin(to make sure that unit tests clean up after themselves)14:23
tekNicoDo I have to get to that in debug mode in the console, or is there a way to expose it via web?14:23
mgedminand gave up after tearing half of my hair14:23
srichterphiliKON: no14:23
mgedmintekNico, try ++apidoc++14:23
philiKONapidoc doesn't have adapters anymore, afaik14:23
mgedminthat's a shame14:23
srichterphiliKON: getSiteManager() gets you the site manager that is set; the default is the global one14:23
philiKONsrichter, yes. the site manager wasn't really my point anyways14:24
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srichterthat is all in the module14:24
philiKONgetAdapters() was my point14:24
srichterphiliKON: how is ++apidoc++ not covering adapters anymore?14:24
philiKONcan you see which adapters are registered in apidoc?14:25
srichterit is specific to interfaces14:25
srichteryou can see all the adapters that involve a given interface14:25
srichterlook at zope.interface.interfaces.Interface and you should see all of them14:25
philiKONright :)14:26
srichter(I wonder how long this would render)14:26
philiKONit's pretty fast14:26
philiKONjust tried it14:26
philiKONsrichter, can you also go to an object and see all the available adapters?14:28
philiKONhmm, i guess not14:30
tekNicoHmm... I still don't reckon how to fix this:14:37
tekNicoComponentLookupError: (< from /home/nl/src/Zope/Z3Instance/lib/python/hello/ object at 0xb793298c>, <InterfaceClass zope.formlib.namedtemplate.INamedTemplate>, 'default')14:37
tekNicoComponentLookupError: ([ from /home/nl/src/Zope/Z3Instance/lib/python/hello/ object at 0xb793298c], [InterfaceClass zope.formlib.namedtemplate.INamedTemplate], 'default')14:38
tekNicophiliKON: looks like the Introspector allows you to do that.14:40
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mgedmintekNico, did you install zope.formlib on top of the Zope 3.1 release?14:41
mgedminor are you using a subversion checkout?14:41
tekNicoI'm using an SVN checkout.14:41
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JonexThere's lots of Do Repeat Yourself in zope. :/14:49
MacSprinthow to write singletons in z3?14:52
mgedminJonex, what have you encountered?14:53
mgedminMacSprint, why would you need them?14:53
MacSprintwhy do you drive a car :)14:54
mgedminto get from one place to another14:55
mgedminbut singletons don't let you get from one place to another14:55
mgedminso you don't really need them14:55
mgedminuse a bicycle instead14:55
MacSprintbut they save my life :=)14:55
Jonexmged, I write a class and a view in python, fo that I need a config file that repeats the name and position of the class and the name and position of the view. I also have to tell the view to coonnect to that class in the config file. And tell zope that I want it to use my module. There's a lot repeating of the class name/path.14:56
mgedminyou have to pay a lot for the flexibility14:57
mgedminI wish you only had to pay for it when you actually needed it14:57
Jonexthe bad thing is that I a have asuspection that I'll have to do it all in something more agile instead. And I won't know before I've spent ages doing @xml situps@14:59
JonexI have to do permissions in /XML/?15:03
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JonexWhy not in the python code? With decorators, name mangling or whaterver?15:04
mgedminyou could do that, I guess15:05
mgedminthere are reasons for doing it in xml15:06
JonexAny reasn that applies to me?15:06
mgedminprobably none15:06
mgedminyou can declare permissions for objects that come from 3rd party libraries without having to change them15:06
mgedminyou can override permissions in a different zcml file if you need to15:06
JonexWhy not let the user overide with XML but let the developer use Python for the defaults.15:08
JonexWill I have to do much xml repeating(like what I mentioned) if I choose to use Zope3?15:09
mgedminyou will have to declare all views and adapters in zcml15:10
mgedminyou will have to declare permissions for all content objects in zcml15:10
mgedminother than that, no15:10
mgedminI do not find it a burden -- but I might just have gotten used to it15:11
JonexMaybe it's just the quick start that is bad, but in that it's like a 2:1 xml to code ratio.15:11
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* mgedmin counts15:14
mgedmin74431 lines of code versus 1315 lines of zcml15:14
mgedminin one of my projects15:14
mgedminerr, I think those 74k-lines include a copy of pytz15:14
bob2the examples are zcml heavy because you need some vaguely constant amount of zcml for each content object15:15
bob2and the content objects in the examplea are trivial15:15
bob2real code has a much less annoying ratio15:15
JonexWhat is the target group of zope315:16
bob2tho, it annoys me that I need to use the web at all15:17
srichterJonex: Pythopn Web developers15:17
srichterJonex: Pythopn Web application developers15:17
srichterJonex: Python Web application developers15:17
JonexFor any project?15:17
bob2anything that approximates content management, imo15:18
JonexAt any size? It feels like it's mailnly made for large projects where it's important that thngs are portable. But you think it's appropriate for smaller apps too?15:19
bob2depends how proficient you are at it15:22
JonexHow about not at all?15:22
bob2I wouldn't think it was worth investing the time to learn it to do a 500 line thing15:22
JonexNot? Oh, then I guess I should skip this.15:24
bob2if you think you'll use it in the future, then that's of course different15:24
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MacSprintthe new publisher registry is working :)15:45
regebroPublisherRegistry? That sound interesting...15:47
MacSprintyou can register publisher based on the request method(s) and mimetype(s)15:48
regebroAh, so you can make your own publisher for audio/mpeg WebDAV access=15:50
MacSprintpossibly, yes15:50
regebroBut that's the type of thing it's ment for? Or?15:51
MacSprint<publisher mimetype="audio/mpeg" methods="PUT" factory="....." priority="0" name="nuxeompeg" />15:51
MacSprintbasicially to hook in additional servers, e.g. JSON Servers, SOAP Servers15:52
MacSprintor whatever15:52
MacSprintwithout having to hack the sources15:52
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tziadewell actually it just works on macintosh laptops15:52
tziades/actually/at this time15:53
regebroWell, it's cool any way. :)15:53
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MacSprintand it runs on linux, so tarek's machine is to blame15:58
tziademm.. must be ubuntu then ;)16:00
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regebroUbuntu is for lusers. ;) Tha's why I use it.16:21
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tziade"Ugly is better than lobotomized"16:32
regebroDepends on what you use it for. ;)16:33
mgedmin"Simple is better than complex."16:33
tziade(that was a line found in a z3 page template :)16:38
mgedminoh, I thought it was a slur on Ubuntu :-)16:40
Theuni"Complicated is better than utterlynonunderstandableandbreakingyourbrain"16:41
MacSprintTheuni: you have not seen our yesterdays implementation16:41
MacSprintnot far away where my brain would explode16:41
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Theuniso, you better make it complicated instead of that16:43
mgedminwhat are you folks working on in the sprint?16:47
MacSprintdrinking and having fun :)16:48
srichtermgedmin: twisted integration, pluggable HTTP sub-protocols, generalized container views, viewlet/content provider refinements, static API doc, application16:50
tziadesrichter, you forgot MacSprint's topic16:50
mgedminwhat's " application"?16:50
srichtertziade: nope; pluggable HTTP sb-protocols :-)16:53
srichtermgedmin: Jim had some idea of starting again using wikifiable HTML pages; they are working on this16:54
srichtertonico strasser also makes a nice UI design and implementation16:54 ? yeah16:57
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faassensrichter: would be nice if the wiki used restructured text. :)17:01
faassensrichter: but I guess this is Jim's HTML wiki idea.17:01
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faassensrichter: you could use kupu.17:02
faassensrichter: as an optional frontend.17:02
faassenproblem with HTML as the common storage medium is that it's harder to use higher level tools like RestructuredText, as HTML is not translatable to rest.17:02
J1mfaassen, why is it a goal to be able to use ReST?17:03
faassenJ1m: I'd like to be able to just ReST. :)17:03
faassenJ1m: to edit pages. I prefer this to writing HTML.17:04
faassenJ1m: I also prefer this to wysiwyg HTML editors like Kupu for longer texts.17:04
J1mI think that for most people, special text markup is an obstical.17:04
faassenHTML is special text markup.17:04
J1mBut HTML editors hide this.17:04
J1mbtw, check out:17:05
faassenI hope the idea is not to use epoz for this.17:05
J1mI don't care what is used.17:05
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J1mAt this point, neither epoz or kupu are available for z3 afaik17:06
faassendepends on what you mean by 'available for', I guess. :)17:07
J1mI'll note that I'd also like to see external editor support so that someone could launch their html editor of choice.17:07
J1mBy available, I mean a Python package that makes it easy to use in Zope 3 without having to become a kupu expert.17:07
faassenanyway, dunno, never been a great fan of editing my texts with HTML editors. it all feels a bit shakey to me.17:07
faassenbut it's an interesting idea.17:08
J1mHave you every used moin moin?17:08
faassenJ1m: use in Zope 3 how?17:08
faassenyeah, i've used moin moin.17:08
J1mHave you ever used moin moin?17:08
J1mPersonally, I can't stand moin moin's markup.17:08
faassensure, me neither. I've used wikipedia though.17:08
J1mI'm sure the people who use moin moin feel the same way about stx.17:09
faassenwell, I can't stand stx anymore either, I prefer rst. :)17:09
J1mand would feel the same way about rest.17:09
J1mI find this to be a significant obstical.17:09
faassenI understand your point of HTML as a happy medium. we'll see how happy it will be. :)17:09
faassenobstacle. :)17:09
J1mI would really like to be able to use kupu for any text field.17:10
J1mThat would be ideal to me.17:10
faassenJ1m: anyway, it's not a bad idea; I know you mentioned it around the sprint time. But I've used WYSIWYG in browser editors in anger and personally I'd prefer to use ReST in anger. :)17:10
J1mRoger and Dominic looked at integrating kupu last year.17:11
faassenJ1m: I think Guido has some code for that. it would mean that the text fields would store HTML though, so that wouldn't be a text field.17:11
faassenJ1m: I think the unioncms people also have kupu widgets working with Five.17:11
faassenanyway, Plone has kupu working as fields. Perhaps I'll have a chat with GuidoW about this. :)17:12
J1mThey spent 3 days working on it, reached a happy state of zen about kupu as some grand development platform and didn't accomplish anything. :)17:12
faassenthough really a wiki would expect kupu more to work as a 'whole page' model.17:12
faassenas it does in Silva.17:12
faassenJ1m: GuidoW doesn't tend to do this kind of stuff, he tends to get things done. :)17:12
J1mIf we can have some kind of kupu widget, then it's straightforward to build a whole-page thing on that.17:13
faassenanyway, kupu as a whole page model with tools at the side makes more sense to me in a wiki.17:13
faassenkupu widget != whole page thing, I think.17:13
J1mwhy do we need tools at the side?17:13
J1mtools for what?17:14
faassenwell, there's a table inserting tool, for instance. but more particularly I'm thinking of link lookup tools, image lookup tools, etc.17:14
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J1mLook, I'd be ok with some special whole page thing.17:14
faasseni.e. things that need to contact the server while editing.17:14
J1mI also want the widget thing.17:14
faassenI'm just sketching out some options. :)17:14
J1mRight now I have nothing.17:14
faassenyeah, let's have a bit. :)17:14
J1mIn plone, I have no problem inserting links and tables from buttons just above the editing area.17:16
J1mThis is nice and lean.17:16
* J1m recently wrote my first plone app recently. Using ArchGenXML. :)17:17
MacSprintyou designed it17:19
J1mYup, using a UML editor. :)17:19
J1mI didn't have to create any custom code.17:19
J1mIt's a reasonably cool app too.17:20
MacSprintas long as it does not eat your code in the next iteration it's a cool tool17:20
J1mSince I have no code, I'm safe. :)17:21
MacSprintcool trick17:22
J1mArchGenXML is very cool.17:24
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J1mfaassen, ayt?17:44
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J1mSteveA, ayt?18:23
SteveAhi jim18:24
J1mDid you write zope/app/
J1mThere is a test there that I find mysterious.18:26
J1mThis has to do with a wart in the checker framework that I'm cleaning up.18:27
SteveAi feel like i probably wrote it, but the code doesn't look hugely familiar to me18:29
J1mI think the tests are using NoPoxy in a missleading way.18:30
J1mI think this is due to some confusing aspects of the checker-lookup framework.18:30
J1mBasically, the words and the code don't agree.18:31
J1mI'll assume that this is die to the fact that the person who wrote the words missunderstoof the meaning of NoProxy.18:31
SteveAare these decorators even used now?18:31
J1myes, they are18:32
J1mThey are used for various kinds of decorator proxies. :)18:33
J1mFor example, location and contained proxies.18:33
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mgedminin zope 3 functional tests18:38
mgedminwhen I ask for absolute paths18:38
mgedminwhere does the http://localhost/ part come from?18:38
* mgedmin tried to override it by adding a Host: header in the http("...") request body, but it didn't work18:38
benji_yorkusing testbrowser?18:38
mgedminno, using HTTPCaller directly18:38
benji_yorkin that case, I have no idea18:39
mgedmintestbrowser is built on top of HTTPCaller, isn't it?18:39
SteveAmgedmin: the functional test runner18:39
SteveAoh, perhaps not18:39
SteveAmisread your question18:39
* mgedmin hacks up a request wrapper that prepends '/++vh++http:localhost:theportnumberIwanttosee' to the actual path18:44
* mgedmin gets the wanted result in ftest output18:44
mphm.. configure number of treads in zope3?19:04
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J1msrichter, how do you configure the max number of threads?19:12
J1mmp, this chenged with the twised integration, I believe.19:13
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mpzope/app/server/schema.xml - I guess this will suffice19:19
Theunidoes anybody from you know this paper: ?19:46
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Theunilooks rather old ... but has a very interesting use case19:50
Theunii just got severely distorted by a faulty mysql module19:50
J1mYeah, it's cool, but very platform specific.20:03
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TheuniI wouldn't mind having it on at least a couple of platforms (read: those that I use)22:41
J1mI seem to remember the papter was using solaris.22:42
J1mBut I could be wrong.22:42
J1m(I heard this paper presented several years ago. :)22:42
J1mOr maybe I reviewed it.22:42
J1mwas presented at a Python meeting.22:44
Theunioh. just a typo. sorry, i thought you were referring to someone with that name.22:44
TheuniThe paper actually has a demo implementation for linux x8622:44
Theuniand solaris22:44
TheuniMy annoyance level about faulty c modules is just sky-high in this very moment.22:45
J1mWe may have been using Dec machines at that time. :)22:45
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Theunihmm. doesn't compile out of the box anymore22:50
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clueckhm, when I start the debugger by >>>debugger = Debugger('var/Data.fs', 'etc/site.zcml') it complains: No module named myz3app But I have put a myz3app-configure.zcml into etc/package-includes/ and starting the instance with bin/runzope it is there23:16
J1mUse zopectl debug instead23:16
J1mI don't think the other instructions work with instances.23:17
J1mThey predate instances.23:17
clueckbin/zopectl debug -- thanks23:19
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clueckah, there is still an other way:23:29
clueckexport PYTHONPATH=path_to_z3_build/lib/python:path_to_z3_instance/lib/python23:30
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clueckand then run it from the python2.4 prompt23:30
J1myup, but zopectl is easier, and it works with other databases, etc.23:31
clueckok, I see23:31
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