IRC log of #zope3-dev for Friday, 2005-10-14

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TornetHi! Does somebody know where to find complete application (sources) for Zope3?00:02
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viyyerhow can i make plone work on zope309:24
MacYET_z3 does not work with plone.point09:25
MacYET_plone  does not work with z309:25
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* MacYET_ is away: sushi hunting11:52
sashavmorning, any links for where I can learn how I can make an already existing class persistent object in zope without touching the class? do I need to use an adapter that spits out a new persistent instance?11:55
sashavnever mind11:57
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VladDraccaught any sushi?13:28
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hdimaIs there are way to get multi adapter by interfaces?15:48
hdimaFor example:15:48
hdimagetMultiAdapter((IObject1, IObject2), name="name")15:49
SteveAthere's no nice api for doing that, even for a single interface15:52
SteveAwhich is a shame15:52
SteveAyou can query the adapters registry directly15:52
SteveAor you can create objects soley to provide those interfaces, to do the query15:53
hdimaCurently I've create a fake objects which provides my interfaces, but it's not the right way... :)15:54
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MacYET_looks like16:14
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benji_yorkJim is being informed about svn.zope.org16:22
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J1mI just unwedged svn.zope.org16:40
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fdrakephiliKON, it sounds like you have no actual use for the HTML out mode from ZPT; is that right?16:42
philiKONfdrake, i don't16:43
philiKONbut hdima has16:43
philiKONi-mode markup16:43
philiKONwhich probably has .000001% market share16:43
J1mSounds like an untapped market. ;)16:43
philiKON(i-mode is a Japanese mobile phone information system, quite popular over there, never really popular in Europe, no idea about the US)16:44
philiKONJ1m, i meant market share as in all web clients16:44
philiKONit's not really "web", so it might not count16:44
J1mIsn't it possible to express i-mode markup in xhtml?16:44
philiKONdon't ask me, ask hdima16:46
hdimaSeems like real i-mode phones are happy with xhtml16:46
philiKONwhat is an unreal i-mode phone?16:46
fdrakeah, good16:46
hdimaOnly specs said about html markup16:46
fdrakeso XHTML is sufficient in practice?16:47
fdrakeI like that answer.  :-)16:47
philiKONsame here16:47
philiKONfdrake, about the spec16:47
philiKONor, the proposal rather16:48
philiKONforcing people into a file extension somehow feels wrong to me16:48
philiKONwe've never done that16:48
fdrakeI don't know if there could be any Zope 2 issues with an XHTML-only story; it seems unlikely, but I should send a message to that group as well.16:48
fdrakeIt's not great, I'll agree.16:48
fdrakeBut it has less separation from the content than something in ZCML.16:49
philiKONyou know what would even be no separation from the content? if we'd decide based on <?xml ?> being there or not16:49
philiKON*if* we have to go with the file extension thing, why not at least express it the negative way16:50
fdrakeThe catch is that <?xml ?> is a problem for some content (like what's fed to MSIE).  :-(16:50
philiKONi was being sarcastic16:50
philiKON*if* we have to go with the file extension thing, why not at least express it the negative way16:50
fdrakeideally, reasonable filesystems would support typed data  :-)16:50
philiKONif a zpt DOESN'T have the .hpt file extension, it's XML16:50
fdrakebecause of the compatibility issue16:51
fdrakeJim suggested that we could introduce two extensions, .xpt and .hpt, so either way could be explicit.16:51
philiKON.xpt sucks16:51
fdrakeso does HTML16:51
fdrakeand data sniffing.16:52
philiKONintroducing those would set this file extension into stone forever16:52
philiKONi like .pt16:52
philiKONwe would never come back to it, i predict16:52
philiKONbecause renaming stuff is just too hard16:52
fdrakeJulien and I played with the idea of changing the sniffing, so that if any namespaces are used, XML mode is used.16:52
fdrakethat's a more expensive sniff though, and still a sniff16:53
philiKONwe agree taht HTML mode should go in the long term, yes?16:53
benji_yorkgo == go away?16:53
fdrakeyou and I do, certainly, and many others here as well16:54
benji_yorkthen I agree :)16:54
hdimaI agree16:54
philiKONfdrake, let's say we:=you and me for the moment16:54
philiKONso, HTML mode is not going to stay with us forever16:54
philiKONso, any dirty thing (like sniffing) would not be sticking around forever, either16:54
philiKONin fact, it would have a fixed expiration date16:55
philiKONe.g. Zope 3.416:55
fdrakeand, more interestingly, there would only be XHTML output if I have my way16:56
fdrakethat would buy simplifications in the implementation, and at least a small bit of performance16:57
SteveAwill it be easier to add <doctypes> to pages in the future?16:57
SteveAi guess i can do that in the view code16:57
philiKONfdrake, you mean, even html mode would be xhtml mode?16:57
fdrakehaven't thought about that16:57
fdrakephiliKON, YES!!!!16:57
philiKONwill xhtml mode be utilizing xml mode?16:58
fdrakekeeping the parser is easy16:58
philiKONso, xhtml mode will need the namespace declarations and everything tucked into a document element?16:58
hdimaIt would be nice to introduce some pluggable modes...16:58
fdrakebut the "/>" would always need to be converted to " />"; another simplification16:58
fdrakexhtml mode requires that now16:59
fdrakeperhaps, but better to simplify16:59
* mgedmin notes that the w3c validator barfs on pages that declare HTML 4 doctype and have tags like <... />16:59
* mgedmin doesn't care, 'cause /me always declares his pages as XHTML16:59
philiKONi'd be surprised if anyone is actually still using HTML4, especially for the potential new implementation we're rolling out17:00
philiKONman, china has already messed up my english17:00
philiKONfdrake, so, coming back to the rationale i was on before17:02
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philiKONi'd rather introduce something now that is going to go away by the deprecation process we started17:02
philiKONself-removal through deprecation so to speak17:02
philiKONthis wouldn't happen with a special file extension...17:02
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philiKONnamespace declarations there or not might be a suitable switch17:03
philiKONi wouldn't count on it, though17:03
philiKONwhy not temporarily introduce a "tal:mode='xhtml|xml'"?17:04
philiKONon the document element17:04
fdrakeJim just noted that another need for XML-mode without the XML declaration is templates that generate fragments17:04
fdrakelike a portlet or a widget17:04
philiKONof course17:04
mgedminI was bitten by this once17:05
SteveAi'd like to be able to state the namespaces externally from the xml file17:05
fdraketal:mode might be ok17:05
SteveAfor example, to state them once for a while project17:06
SteveAum, whole project17:06
fdrakecan't do that for normal XML, and we want normal XML17:06
philiKON+1 for dull, spec-compliant XML17:06
fdrakethe catch really is fragments (like portlets, etc.)17:06
philiKONwhat about them?17:06
fdrakewhere the namespace context is in the referencing document17:06
SteveAfor normal software developers, these are just dead chickens17:07
mgedminI once constructed recursive trees with a .pt for every node17:07
SteveAthe framework should make it optional to write these things17:07
mgedminand got xmlns declarations on every output element17:07
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fdrakeI'd rather be safe and make fragments documents with a top-level element w/ namespaces17:07
fdrakeand use tal:omit-tag="" if desired17:07
SteveAthis is going to really put off non-xml-zealots17:07
mgedminthe same solution just occurred to me now17:08
mgedminbut not N years ago, when I encountered the problem ;)17:08
philiKONmgedmin, having xmlns attributes flying around everywhere is maybe ugly, but it's at least safe17:08
mgedminphiliKON, you could say the same thing about Java!17:08
fdrakeanything that side-steps a specification, that's bad17:09
SteveAreally, this is a bunch of dead chickens17:09
philiKONmgedmin, if it's in the *output*, i don't care17:09
philiKONmgedmin, you were complaining about the outpout...17:09
SteveAi'm talking about the input files17:09
philiKONyes, SteveA, i wasn't talking to you though17:09
philiKONi would have a hard time arguing with you, because I agree on the dead chickens part, but I'm also tired of Zope doing its17:10
philiKONown non-standard compliant thing all the time17:10
SteveAso, just to get it straight, is there a proposal to make xmlns stuff mandatory for all page templates that programmers and ui people write?17:10
fdrakeI'm not proposing remove HTML-mode input.17:11
SteveAi'd be happy making people write well formed xml fragments as input17:11
fdrakeI'm proposing that output is always XHTML-mode.17:11
SteveAi think that's a good thing17:11
SteveAmy UI guy is happy with the idea of always outputting xhtml mode17:12
MacYET_then all our applications would break :)17:12
fdrakeSo do I, but there are too many backward compatibility problems.17:12
philiKONfdrake, wait, i thought this was all about the input?17:12
fdrakeNo, there are two aspects:17:12
fdrake- we want explicit input mode control for templates17:13
fdrake- we want to use macros across modes17:13
fdrakeSo we want the interpreter to always handle things the same way.17:14
fdrakeIt certainly shouldn't be based on the input mode.17:14
philiKONso, the htmlparser is going to stick around?17:14
fdrakeAs long as folks want to use HTML input.17:15
* philiKON decides they don't anymore... ;)17:15
fdrakeI wouldn't mind removing it, but others would get to do a lot of work changing templates.17:15
fdrakeWere only it so easy!  :-)17:15
philiKONwell, let's make a Gedankenexperiment17:16
philiKONwhen would such a change be fatal?17:16
philiKONin Zope 3.4 or 3.517:16
philiKONlots of time to see those deprecation warnings17:16
philiKONlots of time to change templates17:16
philiKONfor someone actually going to those platforms17:16
philiKONnow, i suspect that people with HTML4 templates wanting to use Zope 3.4/3.5/... are, uh, .000001% of all Zope 3 developers?17:17
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fdrakehopefully no more than that17:17
philiKON(currently, this percentage probably doesn't even represent hdima's left leg)17:18
philiKONanyways, i'm going to bed17:19
* philiKON votes for tal:mode17:19
fdrakeSo 3.2 would need to generate a DepWarning for HTML-mode templates, then.17:19
fdrakebed, schmed.17:19
fdrakeread a good book.  :-)17:19
philiKONna, i have the flu17:20
philiKONor something like that17:20
fdrakehope you feel better soon!17:20
philiKON+1 on 3.2 deprecating html mode input17:20
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fdrakeare there still any objections to removing HTML mode output?17:20
fdrakesounds like not in this group17:21
philiKONbetter ask on the list :)17:21
fdrakewell, there is that...17:21
philiKONso, let's get this straight17:21
philiKONxhtml mode is like xml mode17:21
philiKON- it adds the space for singleton tags17:21
philiKON- ... what else?17:21
philiKON(xhtml mode meaning xhtml OUTPUT mode)17:21
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fdrakethere is no "xhtml" mode; there never has been17:22
fdrakeHTML mode produces XHTML17:23
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fdrakewhere it handles an element at all17:23
philiKONi thougth we're inventing it here17:23
fdrakeah; ok, if we want to give the changes a name, that's fine17:23
philiKONHTML input mode -> xhtml output mode, yes?17:23
fdrakeit would be the only output mode17:23
* philiKON is confused17:24
philiKONwe have two inputs modes, right? HTML and XML, yes?17:24
philiKONwhat output modes are there right now?17:24
fdrakeHTML and XML17:24
philiKONand you're proposing to make them XHTML and XML output modes, right?17:24
fdrakewe want to remove HTML output mode for 3.217:24
fdrakeI'm proposing that XML mode would follow the XHTML compat guidelines (" />" etc.)17:25
fdrakeand remove HTML mode17:25
philiKONand in addition to that, i'm proposing to deprecate HTML mode17:25
fdrakeso we get XHTML w/ b/w compat conventions if we have HTML-esque input17:25
fdrakefor input17:26
philiKONand in addition to that, i'm proposing to deprecate HTML input mode17:26
fdrakefor XML that isn't XHTML, we still get XML, but it happens to use the XHTML compat conventions17:26
philiKONthat's fine, i think17:27
philiKONzpt always does stuff with the whitespace, so this'd just be another whitespace thing of zpts17:27
fdrakeRSS, etc., will be happy enough with that since syntactic equivalence is provided by the XML spec17:27
philiKONsummary before i go to bed: +1 on consolidating the output modes; as you know, i'd also like to go further and deprecate html input mode, and instead of sniffing based on the <?xml ?> processing instruction, i propose a (temporary, since html is going to go away anyways) tal:mode attr on the documentelement.17:29
fdrake1) we agree on output mode consolidation17:30
fdrake2) we agree on deprecation of HTML input mode17:30
fdrake3) I'll think about the tal:mode attribute vs. sniffing for XML namespaces to trigger XML mode17:31
fdraketal:mode would still require declaring the TAL namespace17:31
philiKONnot in HTML mode :)17:31
fdrakeright; HTML mode doesn't change at all17:32
fdrakeother than generating a warning17:32
philiKONok, g'night everyone then17:33
faassenphiliKON: good night!17:36
* philiKON sings "i say hello and you say goodbye..."17:37
MacYET_philiKON: this was before you were born :)17:40
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philiKONMacYET_, and you were what at the time? shitting into diapers?17:41
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regebroHi all!18:37
benji_yorkhi there18:37
regebroIf I try to get a view I declared for a specific interface,18:37
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regebrofor an object that gets that interface via a ZCML statement,18:37
regebrothis should work fine, right?18:38
SteveAthere is a zcml statement that says a class implements an additional interface18:38
SteveAso that will cause instances of that class to provide that interface18:38
regebroYeah, well it doesn't so there is something else wrong. :(18:38
SteveAso it will be lookupable as a view18:38
regebroSo I'm in the interesting situation of figuring out why a broswer:page statement evidently doesn├Ąt work, with no error messages.18:40
regebroHohoho.  So much fun. Already waster two hours.18:40
SteveAtake the object you're getting the view on18:40
SteveAand inspect its interfaces18:40
SteveAusing the zope.interface API18:40
SteveAand check that it provides what you expect it to18:40
SteveAnext, check your request is a standard request18:41
regebroIt does provide that, yes.18:41
regebroYup, request is a normal fine standard http request.18:42
SteveAare you sure your browser:page zcml is being read in?18:42
SteveAadd a syntax or semantic error to it18:42
regebroWell, the rest o fthe file is being read, so..., but I'll check.18:43
regebroYeah, getting rid of permission makes it complain. :)18:44
SteveAokay.  try this.18:47
SteveAmake a new interface unlike anything else18:47
regebroNope! I just found the error! :)18:47
SteveAmake your class implement that marker interface, and register the view for that18:47
SteveAwhat was it?18:48
regebroWell, the Presentation service was not available at the time I registered the page.18:48
SteveAinteresting.  i'm surprised the zcml action didn't fail18:49
regebroYeah, me too.18:49
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regebroI thought it might be a Five-thing, but no, Zope 3.0.0 does the same.18:51
regebroIt wraps the getGlobalService for Presentation in a try/except and passes if it fails.18:52
SteveAlooks like a bug / misfeature18:52
regebroIf that hasn't been changed in 3.1, we probably want to add a log error there...18:52
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MacYET_is there a z3 product area?18:53
d2m was created long ago18:56
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regebroOeeeuuhhh... There is smoe kind of subtle magic going on here.18:59
regebroBoth Zope 3.0.0. and five does this when a page is registered:19:00
regebroAnd both completely ignored the result.19:00
regebroI mean, they do19:00
regebros = getGlobalService(Presentation)19:00
regebroand s is never used.19:00
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SteveAregebro: seeing a variable called 's' is worthy of a bug in itself19:34
regebroOK, I checked, it's gone in trunk.19:36
regebroAnd the bug was indeed a fivebug.19:36
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clueckShiiiiiiiiiiiiiit! I can't login as admin anymore.20:59
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benji_yorkclueck, did you forget the password?21:00
clueckI removed all the default Credebtials Plugins from the PAU for the root folder, except a Session Credentials Plugin.21:00
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clueckNow there is in error when I call login.html21:01
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benji_yorkclueck, go to
benji_yorkoops, that IP should have been "localhost" (or whatever IP you have your server running on)21:05
benji_yorkfrom there you should be able to navigate to "default" and then fix your PAU21:05
clueckbenji_york, wait a second21:06
clueckbenyji_york, no, I can't access it, because I'm not logged in21:10
benji_yorkhmm, I'm confused... I have an instance here that doesn't even have a PAU, and it works...21:11
benji_yorkperhaps you can go into the database and remove the PAU alltogether and then log in21:11
benji_york(but I suspect there is an easier answer)21:12
clueckI think the reason is that I have a Session Credentials Plugin as first Plugin in the PAU for the root folder21:12
clueckI can still login as users which are registered in the Authenticator Plugin (Principal Folder) for the PAU21:15
benji_yorkyep, I just reproduced your problem21:15
clueckbut not as admin21:15
clueckwell, yes, I could start the debugger and remove the PAU alltogether21:16
benji_yorkclueck, got it; here's what you do...21:18
benji_yorkgo to http://admin:admin@localhost:8080/++etc++site/default/21:19
benji_york(substitute admin user name and password and server name)21:19
clueckhm, now there seems to be a cookie problem21:21
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clueckhm, the browser does not block any cookies, I yust checked21:26
benji_yorkI don't understand21:26
clueckit says something about a redirection limit21:26
clueckand I don't understand it, too21:27
benji_yorkit sounds like the username and/or password were wrong and it tried to redirect to a page that you can't see, so it tried to redirect again and got into a redirection loop, verify the username and password you put in the URL (http://user:pass@server....)21:28
benji_york(also, try in a "clean" browser, i.e. one you haven't logged into the site with recently)21:30
clueckyes, I yust did that21:30
clueckIt wants to redirect to login.html21:31
benji_yorkthat suggests that you got the user/pass wrong21:31
clueckimpossible, in the url it is clear text, not *****21:33
benji_yorkif you say so, If I use the wrong password (or the wrong URL) I get the same results, don't know what to say21:34
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clueckyes, I'm sure, yust compared it with etc/principals.zcml21:38
benji_yorkcan you paste the URL here?21:39
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clueckadmin is admin, password is something else21:40
benji_yorkhmm, strange, in firefox I get the same result as you, but in opera 8.5 it works21:44
clueckI used Konqueror as a 'clean' browser, firefox and mozilla seamonkey complained about the redirection limit21:46
benji_yorkanother data point, firefox on windows (same version 1.0.7) seems to work, but not linux21:46
benji_yorkdo you have a windows box handy? :)21:47
clueckdebian linux21:47
clueckI'll install opera and try21:47
benji_yorkright, but do you have a windows box with firefox on it?21:47
benji_yorkok, I was using Opera on Windows, perhaps it'll work on Linux21:48
clueckno, all Win-Boxes are running linux now :(21:48
benji_yorkwell, opera 8 on linux exhibits the same problem21:50
clueckthat's strange21:51
clueckthe first time I wish to have a win-box21:51
clueckI'll try to organize one -- that will take some time21:52
clueckbenji_york: THANKS!21:53
benji_yorkyou might try with Opera 8.5 (I used 8) before building a box just for this21:53
benji_york(and the "delete the PAU" option might be better than building a Windows box, and there may well be other options I haven't thought of)21:53
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clueckyou're right, I'd rather like to learn about Z3 and using the debugger that Win21:56
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clueckbenji_york, I have managed it :-)23:05
clueckcURL works on linux23:05
benji_yorkvery imaginative :)23:06
clueckso curl http://admin:password@localhost:8080/++etc++site/default/PluggableAuthentication/@@undo.html succeeded23:06
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benji_yorkI'll have to remember that one :)23:06
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