IRC log of #zope3-dev for Saturday, 2005-10-15

anguenothi there.00:02
anguenotI can't find how is it possible to increase the number of threads ?00:02
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anguenotwhat's the directive's id ? `threads` ?00:10
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tarekanguenot, would you mind bring me back a pack of oreos from the airport shop ?00:14
* benji_york just figured out how to bribe tarek00:14
srichteranguenot: I dunno; I forgot00:15
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anguenottarek, ok :)00:20
tarekyes !!00:20
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tarek(the black ones)00:21
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anguenot`threads` is recognized (the directive doesn't raise any error) but I dont't see any effects on the number of threads00:25
anguenotcan it be a bug ?00:25
* benji_york goes the kitchen to get some milk and cookies00:25
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clueckbenji_york, I found yet another way: failsavelogin.html -- in its view class the HTTPBasicAuth page is hardcoded instead of looking up a utility (the plugin I deactivated).00:32
benji_yorkwhat would the URL be?00:33
clueckyust localhost:8080/failsavelogin.html00:34
benji_yorkcool, didn't know about that00:35
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benji_yorkoh, and clueck (and for anyone watching) it's actually "failsafelogin.html"00:42
clueckyes, sorry00:43
benji_yorkNP, just wanted to make sure the spectators weren't misinformed :)00:44
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tareksrichter, ayt ?02:09
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srichtertarek: not really, I am about to go to dinner02:36
srichterI will be online tomorrow02:36
tarekok srichter cya, have a good dinner02:40
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benji_yorktarek, are you around?03:31
tarekbenji_york, yup03:37
tarekfinished your cookies ? :)03:38
benji_yorkI just checked in some code inspired by your pystone performance decorator03:38
benji_yorkyes actually :)03:38
benji_yorkpart of it was a PystoneTimer object that I thought you might be interested in.03:38
* tarek is looking at it03:39
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tarekpretty cool03:42
tarekmaybe a tolerance 'constant' could be added03:43
benji_yorkI might try to find time to use the timer to implement the "top N" switch to the new test runner03:43
benji_yorkre: tolerance, for the current use case, I don't see a need (because in doctests you'd add your own tolerance when you compare against a constant03:44
benji_yorkby saying "< 2000" or whatever03:45
tareksure, but i am still looking for that magic number, that would deal with the cpu variations03:46
benji_yorkyou mean variations between different computers?03:47
tarekno i mean variations on the same computer that can cover the variations that can happen from one run to antoher03:48
benji_yorkright, for example if the machine is under light load when the pystone is calculated and then heavy load when something is tested03:49
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benji_yorkthat's a difficult issue03:49
tarekhopefully pystone works pretty well to get a portable measure when you run it into other computer03:49
tarekyes, i am stil looking around for a better soltuion03:50
benji_yorkpystone is a good indicator of Zope's overall performance, but not neccesarily a good indicator of the performance of a particular piece of Python code03:50
tarekyes, anyway i think we have something pretty cool, as we can already prevent from big performance drops03:51
benji_yorkhey, I forgot we already had a --top-fifty switch to the test runner that shows you the slowest fify tests03:54
tarekoh cool03:55
benji_yorkbut I don't know if the new test runner has it... checking03:55
* tarek needs to look over the whole testing package03:55
tarekI have to run (it's 3 am here) cya later benji_york04:03
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newpershas anyone in here made a SlackBuild for zope3?  if so, i'd like to take a look at it05:01
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newpersI'm looking at 3.1.0 final's configure file.  it says ACCEPTABLE is used to "Order a list of "acceptable" python numbers (as returned by sys.version) below in "best" to "worst" order, not including the target version..."  ACCEPTABLE="2.3.5 2.4.1"  the TARGET="2.3.5" which is in the list, but you say not to include it there08:36
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newpersi'm just saying that zope says not to do something, but it does it.  (it's not a big deal at all, i'm just going over the configure file and noticed it)08:38
newpersunless i'm tired and am misreading this08:38
newperswhich is very likely08:39
newpersanyways, it's ok to add 2.4.2 to the ACCEPTABLE list, right?08:39
whitI would think so08:39
philiKONnot really necessary08:39
philiKONjust do ./configure --with-python=....08:39
newpersok, thanks08:40
philiKONthough 2.4.2 should also be acceptable if 2.4.1 is acceptable08:40
philiKONit doesn't find your python2.4.2 installation?08:40
newpersit says it's not acceptable08:40
newpersit's 2.4.208:40
philiKONthat sucks08:40
newpersso i added it the list and it works08:40
philiKONzpkgsetup's mechanism should definitely also accept higher minor releases of acceptable versions08:41
philiKONnewpers, maybe you can file a bug collector on this?08:41
anguenotphiliKon, hi08:41
philiKONhi anguenot08:41
anguenotjust checked your comment on the wiki08:42
anguenothappy you might like the .xpt extension :)08:42
philiKONi don't like it and i don't want to like it... i might have no choice, however...08:42
philiKONbecause i can't come up with a better idea08:42
anguenotWe don't *have* too08:43
anguenotwe have other solutions08:43
philiKON- sniffing the <?xml ?> is bad, we all agree on that08:44
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philiKON  (IE troubles)08:44
anguenotactually check the branch it's implemented08:44
philiKON- sniffing whether NS declarations are there or not is also not a guarantee for XML mode or HTML mode08:44
anguenotwe agree08:44
newpersok, so it works when i do --with-python=/usr/bin/python or when i add 2.4.2 to the ACCEPTABLE list in configure08:44
gnosisphiliKON, I just got your book today, it looks like just what I need, thanks08:44
newperslet me know if you would like me to report it08:44
philiKONgnosis, you're welcome08:45
newpersI have it as well.   I like it as well08:45
philiKONgnosis, i'd welcome some feedback when you've read it08:45
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gnosisphiliKON, you bet08:45
philiKONnewpers, yes, i would like you to report it08:45
philiKONin the collector08:45
philiKONessentially, we shouldn't have to add every single acceptable python version to the configure file08:45
gnosisphiliKON, as far as differences between 3.1 and 3.0, only services are the major difference, right?08:46
philiKONit should figure out that 2.4.2 is also acceptable if 2.4.1 is08:46
philiKONgnosis, services and PAU08:46
gnosisphiliKON, thanks08:46
philiKONI'm the process of writing a "What's new in Zope 3.1 & 3.2" document that will compile all the changes since X3 3.0.08:47
gnosisphiliKON, that would be great08:47
philiKONi'm making no promise on delivery yet08:47
philiKONi'm so busy with other things :(08:47
gnosisphiliKON, it will take me awhile to get through it as is :)08:47
newpersphiliKON, I added it:
philiKONperfect, thanks08:52
newpersthank you08:53
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d2mhi projekt01, i have read your postings on the zope3 windows binary installer in zope3 mailing list; i'd like to talk about how we can organize that; please /msg me if you got some time11:57
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projekt01d2m, hi12:00
projekt01d2m, what do you think about my mail?12:01
d2mprojekt01: i have not tried both of the installers, i have already found in SVN the part that cretaes the program groups etc. for the Zope2.8.x releases12:03
projekt01I guess most part where we need are developed for zope2, plone or something else.12:04
projekt01The main question is if we should offer a "by instance" installation on windows.12:04
d2mprojekt01: this is another part i'd like to solve, atm there is only one zope-win install possible12:05
d2mprojekt01: it should be possible to have more than one zope version installed12:06
projekt01I build my installer for customer projects with BitRock InstallBuilder.12:06
d2mhow can we work on this together ?12:07
projekt01Perhaps we should write a proposal  first and use the ideas from the ?? (there is a wiki page)12:07
projekt01Then we can see how we can integrate this with zpkgtools12:07
d2mprojekt01: ok, which page ? i created a page on, btw12:08
projekt01Ah, ok, that's the page.12:09
d2mprojekt01: from what you know about the bitrock installer: is it possible to install more than 1 zope version with it ?12:09
projekt01It's not a question of the install builder. It's a question if we install a running version or a base for use with mkzopeinstance.12:10
projekt01The steps are:12:10
projekt01bildout a working running version12:11
projekt01package this with additional scripts12:11
projekt01and build the installer with a predefined install builde configuration file12:11
d2mprojekt01: ok, btw the base install should install outside the python site-packages or (at least) install with different (user defined) package names in there12:13
projekt01+1 on outside python12:14
d2mprojekt01: ok -- will check zpkgtools and the installer now -- see you later12:15
projekt01Good luck, it tooks me about a week to understand and fix zpkgtools last time. But now it seams to work on windows.12:16
srichterprojekt01: so zpkgtools grows on you? :-)12:18
projekt01Remember, zpkgtools will checkout a distutil distro and not a running zope version in your workspace.12:18
projekt01No, just reported some svn command bugs on windows.12:18
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srichterI see12:19
projekt01srichter, are the twisted issues fixed on the trunk?12:32
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srichterprojekt01: at least the test failures are12:57
srichterprojekt01: I think Michael still has some open SFTP issues12:58
srichterprojekt01: I just finsihed the vielwet tests; I am going to write some motivation and design decisions next13:32
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tarekhello yota13:44
yotahi tarek :)13:45
tarekyota, fyi, there's a python meeting in paris this afternoon, just to let you know if you're interested (they gather in #afpy)13:47
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srichterprojekt01: okay roger (wow this rhymes), I sent a RFC to the mailing list concerning the content provider and viewlet code15:26
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projekt01srichter, Yeah, I'm wondering about the comments on this mail.15:41
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* MacYET is away: Blicket auf zum Retterblick, Alle reuig Zarten, Euch zu sel'gem Glueck, Dankend umzuarten!17:21
srichterbenji_york: are you there?17:28
benji_yorkwhat's up srichter?17:31
srichterdo you guys have a snapshot of your portlet implementation somewher?17:31
benji_yorknot publicly available17:31
srichterbenji_york: or to answer some questions: did you implment JSR 168?17:31
srichteri.e. can your code provide portlets to Java portals?17:31
benji_yorkI'd be glad to answer some questions17:31
benji_yorknot directly, we thought that might be an eventual use case, we didn't do anything to prevent it17:32
srichterI am trying to figure out whether it would be useful to start an independent implementation now and get the best of both later or wait till I can have a peek at your code17:32
srichterare your portlets totally independent applications?17:33
benji_yorkIf you're really interested, we might be able to open it sooner than later, I can bring this up next week at ZC17:33
srichteri.e. do they have their own URLs to send requests to17:33
srichteryeah, that would be good17:33
srichterI just do not want to solve solved problems17:34
benji_yorkthey don't presently, but were designed so that would be easy17:34
srichterdid you implement the concept of a portlet container literarely?17:34
srichteri.e. do you have a utility or some other container that aggregates portlets?17:35
benji_yorkyep, that's a slot17:35
benji_yorkthe user can add/remove portlets in slots, or drag them between slots17:35
srichterwe moved away from using the name "slot" because of metal17:35
srichterbenji_york: ok17:36
srichterI am not interested in the user experience that much yet ;-)17:36
srichtermmh, okay, I am really going to wait till you give me something ;-)17:37
srichterof course, I want to build portlets on top of the viewlet code17:37
srichteralso, I want portlets to be accessible like this: path/to/object/view.html/++portlet++/portletManagerName/portletName17:39
benji_yorkI'm watching a screencast of someone building a simple blog in Java, it is extreamly painful!17:39
benji_yorkyep, that's good17:39
benji_yorkoops, nope, not a good idea :)17:39
benji_yorkwhat happens when the portlet is moved to a different manager?17:40
srichterthen it has a different meaning17:41
srichterwe can decide to move the settings as well17:41
srichterthe portlet URL does nto have to be canconical17:41
benji_yorkright, so what if some AJAX wants to access a portlet from the client, but the portlet has been moved, it gets the wrong one17:41
srichterok, so that begs the question of use cases17:42
srichterI would say that a portlet is not moved and used at the same time17:42
projekt01benji_york, we don't define the URL, the URL is given by its container, so you can move how much you like17:43
benji_yorkthat assumes that only one person would ever be interacting with a portlet at a time17:43
srichterthe use cases I have suggest that putting a portlet into a container is a development/configuration task17:43
projekt01btw, hi together17:43
benji_york:) hi17:43
srichterbenji_york: no, it does not17:43
benji_yorkwhat if it's moved to a different container?17:43
projekt01the portlet?17:43
srichterbenji_york: well, do you think users of a WEb site (not the site manager) can move portlets among containers?17:44
benji_yorkright, the  portlet might be moved17:44
srichterReading JSR 168 as far as I did never suggested sucha  use case17:44
benji_yorksrichter, defininately17:44
projekt01yes, we can move portlets17:44
srichterso the container is user dependent?17:45
srichterif so, can you give me a place where this is described?17:45
srichterwith user I mean the end user, not anyone involved in generating the site17:45
benji_yorksrichter, if you're asking me: we have two different types of containers (slots), one is usually placeful and the other is specifict to a user17:46
srichtersh, I see17:47
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srichternot that this is a problem for my URL case above17:47
benji_yorkthe placeful type might have someone change it between viewings17:47
srichterI see17:48
srichterthat users can mve portlets between containers is definitely a use case I have not considered yet17:48
srichterthat is a really tough one17:49
srichterI am pretty sure the Java world has not implemented this use case, but I could be wrong17:50
benji_yorkGary came up with a good way of naming things so they can be referred to even if their containment (or order) changes17:50
projekt01srichter, moving portlets is a user task where we can do via javascript. This implementation needs a "xy" container utility where is called via the PortletManager in our implementation.17:50
benji_yorkI think he described it in the subview README, let me see if it's there17:51
srichterprojekt01: but that means that the portletmanager implementation looks very, very different from what the viewlet manager looks now17:51
benji_yorkprojekt01, it's not moving them freely on an x,y plane, it's reordering them in slots and moving them between slots (but an x,y container would be cool, too;)17:52
srichterCurrently viewlets are registered for their manager, meaning they can depend on the manager API; they could not do this anymore17:52
srichteralso, the concept of making portlets adapters, like we do now, is becoming a much harder issue17:53
benji_yorkif you're interested the basics are described in
projekt01srichter, no, we need a additional component where manages the move part. But this is only a observer during the move process.17:53
benji_yorkit's about the names and prefixes, etc.17:53
srichterI would guess that if you can move a portlet from slot X to Y, they would at least need to share a common interface17:53
projekt01don't forget about he typing patter we disdussed!17:53
projekt01We can type viewlets during the move procces, so they belong to another manager.17:54
srichterdon't forget that those configurations are on a user-by-user basis!17:54
projekt01the marker is only a directly provided interface.17:55
srichterthe problem is that the component architecture does not register adapters on a user-by-user basis17:55
projekt01Ok, right ;-(17:55
projekt01Why not ;-)17:55
srichterright, I have to think about this issue17:55
srichter(that will keep me busy the next weel)17:55
srichterI am still convinced that portlets should be adapters17:56
srichterone choice would be to not make portlets be based on viewlets17:56
srichterand register portlets more like regualr content providers17:56
srichterand make portlet managers more virtual containers17:56
srichterwhich work with the user-specific configuration data17:57
srichterok, this is a good way to do it I think17:57
srichterthe use cases for portlets and viewlets (as we have them now) are more different than I thought17:57
projekt01but if portlets are named adapters and we can call this on a pre user basis if we call only the names where the user defined.17:58
srichterall this moving around of portlets only works well, if portlets are totally autonomous mini-applications17:58
srichterprojekt01: right17:58
benji_yorksrichter, regarding differences: that's why we started working on subviews, there seems to be a basic model underlying all this (viewlets, portlets, CPS Skins portlets, etc.)17:58
srichterright, this is the reason we have content providers :-)17:59
benji_yorkcontent providers are basically things that produce HTML, right?18:00
projekt01Yes, I'm absolutly sure that content provider can be used a s a base for all concepts18:00
srichteryeah, I think we got content providers right18:00
benji_yorkI think there is actually a more "featureful" concept that is shared18:00
srichterI'll note that the true feature comes from the way they are registered18:01
srichterand how they can interact with TAL18:01
benji_yorkunfortunately I can't discuss this right now, have to feed the baby (I'm Mr. Mom this weekend :)18:02
srichtersee ya18:02
* benji_york is away: I'm busy18:03
projekt01srichter, I think if we use the name of portlets we can render them in different manager as well on a pre user basis. Or not?18:04
projekt01This means we need a utility where the different managers tell what names are used.18:05
projekt01per user18:05
srichteryep, I agree18:05
projekt01do you see other problems?18:05
srichterall I am saying is that the current viewlet implementation does not work for this....but that's ok18:06
projekt01If you implement a different manager and use a utility where this manager tells what viewlet should be called, it's also possible. Or not?18:07
projekt01I guess it would be a little bit overhead to support drag and drop over managers as a base concept18:08
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projekt01Perhaps we have to think about the relation from viewlets and the directly provided interface. Perhaps we have to use a naming (named adapter)18:10
projekt01So we can easier handle pre user basis settings (even for global registration) if we support a concept via preferences (store adapter names for users)18:11
srichterwe already do18:12
projekt01Do we not mark the viewlet for a manager with the viewletType anymore?18:12
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srichterprojekt01: no18:15
projekt01Ok, I'll take a look at this part tonight and think about the portlet-move-case18:15
projekt01I guess this part depends on the "portlet box state" part and not on the portlet instance itself. So I guess portlets are totaly independend here. Only the Box around a portlet has to know about all this.18:17
philiKONbenji_york, are you ok?18:18
projekt01What we really need is a very flexible portlet box18:18
projekt01srichter, he is feeding his baby on the table.18:18
mgedminI didn't know babies made such scary sounds :-)18:19
projekt01srichter, btw, I changed my wfmc implementation. Now I use roles for map participants to principals. This makes it possible to send notification mails.18:20
projekt01mgedmin, I know it, I have two of them at home ;-)18:21
benji_yorkphiliKON, the 4 year old apparently wanted to talk on IRC18:31
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srichterok, I am going to implement devmode now; any objections?19:06
srichterin the release, should the development mode be turned on or off by default19:48
benji_yorksrichter, it depends on our target audience; I doubt the current releases would be useful for anyone but developers, so I'd say it should be on19:49
srichterright, I agree; okay on it will be for now19:50
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roymfolks, how do I run a doctest from the command line? The "-vpu" options to is the closest I can find to this, but doesn't work...20:09
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srichterroym: you have to setup a for the test20:13
srichterroym: the source code is full of examples20:14
srichtersee for example20:14
roymI must be doing something wrong:20:18
roymcd /usr/local/Zope3/src/zope/app/preference20:18
roympython2.3 tests.py20:18
roym> Traceback (most recent call last):20:18
roym>   File "", line 40, in ?20:18
roym>     unittest.main(default='test_suite')20:18
roym> TypeError: __init__() got an unexpected keyword argument 'default'20:18
srichteroops, it should be defaultTest=...20:20
srichternot default20:20
srichterwe usually do not catch those problems, since we are using the test runner20:20
roymI tried that.. it now comes back with *many* errors of the form:20:21
roymFailed example:20:21
roym = 'Basic'20:21
roymException raised:20:21
roym    Traceback (most recent call last):20:21
roym      File "/usr/local/Zope3/src/zope/testing/", line 1256, in __run20:21
roym        compileflags, 1) in test.globs20:21
roym        ...20:21
roym        raise ComponentLookupError(interface, name)20:22
roym    ComponentLookupError: (<InterfaceClass>, '')20:22
roymMaybe there is some configuration that I need?20:22
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srichterwhat is the first error you get?20:28
srichterbtw, you should really run the tests using: Zope3$ python -vpu1 --dir src/zope/app/preference README20:28
roymgetting closer:20:33
roympython2.3 /usr/local/Zope3/ -vpu1 \20:33
roym  --dir /usr/local/Zope3/src/zope/app/preference README20:33
roymRunning UNIT tests at level 120:33
roymRunning UNIT tests from /usr/local/Zope3-trunk/src/zope/app/preference20:33
roymError in test Invalid Test (
roymTraceback (most recent call last):20:33
roym  File "/usr/local/Zope3-trunk/src/zope/app/testing/", line 620, in get_suite20:33
roym    mod = package_import(modname)20:33
roym  File "/usr/local/Zope3-trunk/src/zope/app/testing/", line 596, in package_import20:33
roym    __import__(modname)20:33
roymValueError: Empty module name20:33
srichteryou should really use Python 2.420:34
srichterit is required on the trunk20:34
roymbut it yields the same error !20:34
roymI did try that as well...20:34
srichteris your current working directory /usr/local/Zope3?20:35
roymaha - that was it... thanks!20:35
roymRunning UNIT tests from /usr/local/Zope3-trunk20:35
roym   1/46 (  2.2%): /usr/local/Zope3-trunk/src/zope/app/preference/README.txt----------------------------------------------------------------------20:35
roymRan 46 tests in 0.135s20:35
roymI just assumed that the --dir option behaved from elsewhere!20:36
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headgoatfor everyone who was trying to help me get Zope 3 installed (earlier in the week), I thank you, and I am pleased to report that it now works.  I succeeded in getting it installed on FC4.  Some of the compile warnings, were probably just that - not fatal.   I believe that I was getting stuck on the 'make check' step, because a test was failing - but hey, I think that was a bad test!21:13
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benji_yorkheadgoat, if you think you have a spurious test failure, you should file a bug so someone can look at it21:27
benji_yorkcongratulations, by the way21:27
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headgoatthanks,  I'm going to do a little more testing... I don't want to report something that's just a dolt-newbie error.21:48
headgoatIs there a Products directory in Zope3 like there is in Zope2.8?  (I set up an instance on Zope3, and no Products directory was created.  Can I just create one, and put Plone in it?)21:50
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d2mheadgoat: products are packages now and go anywhee in the python path, plone does not run with zope321:59
headgoatd2m: thanks for the info!   saved me a lot of headaches22:05
d2mheadgoat: preferred folders to put your packages in: INSTANCE/lib/python or BASE/lib/python/ (or with a SVN checkout it is BASE/src/)22:05
headgoatd2m: are there plans to get plone to run under zope3 (as far as you know)?22:06
headgoatd2m: I am not passionate about zope3, but would just prefer to learn the latest-and-greatest.22:06
d2mheadgoat: they are just starting to use the zoep3 features provided through Five22:06
headgoatd2m: thx22:08
d2mheadgoat: is a good description22:09
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