IRC log of #zope3-dev for Wednesday, 2005-11-23

srichterbenji: I use the test recorder from time to time for demos for a while now00:01
benjioh, ok.  Just wanted to make sure you knew it was in the wild00:01
srichterand soon the test recorder will also be a tutorial recorder :-)00:02
*** bradb has left #zope3-dev00:02
benjicool :)00:03
*** xenru has joined #zope3-dev00:12
*** xenru|clone has quit IRC00:14
*** zbir has quit IRC00:39
*** BjornT_ has joined #zope3-dev00:45
*** BjornT has quit IRC00:56
srichterjfmoxley: how is your app coming?01:00
*** jfmoxley has quit IRC01:09
benjiI guess he didn't want to tell you, srichter01:15
*** ignas has joined #zope3-dev01:15
srichterbenji: or he might not be on his computer (idle for over a day)01:16
benjiI was just kidding01:16
srichter(I actually have access to his repository, so I could jsut check it out ;-)01:16
srichterbenji: I know, my counter-joke was bad I guess :-|01:17
benjiI guess so :)01:17
benjiok, I'm going home01:18
*** benji has quit IRC01:18
*** J1m has quit IRC01:25
*** newnick has quit IRC01:26
*** d2m has quit IRC01:27
*** WebMaven has joined #zope3-dev01:52
*** zbir has joined #zope3-dev02:54
*** horizon5 has left #zope3-dev02:56
*** ignas has quit IRC03:22
*** natea has joined #zope3-dev03:44
*** vlado has quit IRC03:58
*** WebMaven has left #zope3-dev03:59
*** jfmoxley has joined #zope3-dev04:11
*** febb has joined #zope3-dev04:19
*** natea has quit IRC04:55
*** natea has joined #zope3-dev05:00
*** jinty has left #zope3-dev05:03
*** jinty has quit IRC05:03
*** JoaoJoao has joined #zope3-dev05:05
*** natea has quit IRC05:05
JoaoJoaoTHe Zope3 book is not available in Brazil =(05:30
yotaamazon is your friend :)05:33
JoaoJoaohehe I'll have to look at the price05:34
JoaoJoaoI've been trying to figure out why my TodoList objects are being cataloged but the contained TodoItem objects aren't05:35
yotaoften, amazon us prices with transport is less than french prices05:37
JoaoJoaoyota: damn expensive for me, about 10% of my salary05:41
*** stub has joined #zope3-dev05:41
yotai don't have pdf versions of these books05:41
JoaoJoaobut people are constantly praising "Web Component Development with Zope 3 "05:41
yotayes, very good book05:43
yotabut stephan's one is good to05:43
yotaa bit different05:43
yotabut it's 2 excellents books05:44
JoaoJoaoIt seems to be worth the price05:45
JoaoJoaowell it's time to sleep here in Brazil, bye05:47
*** JoaoJoao has quit IRC05:48
*** yota has quit IRC05:54
*** xenru|clone has joined #zope3-dev07:30
*** xenru has quit IRC07:49
*** xenru has joined #zope3-dev07:50
*** dobee has joined #zope3-dev07:56
*** xenru|clone has quit IRC08:00
*** BjornT_ is now known as BjornT08:17
*** natea has joined #zope3-dev08:45
*** Jim7J1AJH has quit IRC09:12
*** hdima has joined #zope3-dev09:33
*** natea has quit IRC10:30
*** tarek_ has joined #zope3-dev10:42
*** sashav has joined #zope3-dev10:42
*** d2m has joined #zope3-dev10:43
*** tarek_ has quit IRC10:43
*** tarek_ has joined #zope3-dev10:44
*** tarek has quit IRC10:58
*** tarek_ has quit IRC10:58
*** tarek has joined #zope3-dev10:59
*** tlotze has joined #zope3-dev11:05
tlotzewhat is the preferred way in Zope 3 to do a multiple choice field? there seems to be only a choice field which has only one value, or collections that know nothing about vocabularies. how to get a "collection with a vocab"?11:06
*** alienoid has joined #zope3-dev11:07
*** mgedmin has joined #zope3-dev12:02
*** mgedmin has quit IRC12:07
*** alienoid has quit IRC12:13
*** alienoid has joined #zope3-dev12:14
*** alienoid has quit IRC12:19
*** alienoid has joined #zope3-dev12:20
*** faassen has joined #zope3-dev12:32
*** mgedmin has joined #zope3-dev12:42
*** MrTopf has joined #zope3-dev12:43
*** newnick has joined #zope3-dev12:45
*** Aiste has quit IRC12:48
*** efge has joined #zope3-dev12:48
*** ignas has joined #zope3-dev12:58
*** stub has quit IRC13:03
*** zagy has quit IRC13:03
*** niemeyer has joined #zope3-dev13:03
*** Aiste has joined #zope3-dev13:08
*** zagy has joined #zope3-dev13:11
*** mgedmin has quit IRC14:03
*** ignas has quit IRC14:03
*** stub has joined #zope3-dev14:39
*** ignas has joined #zope3-dev14:41
srichtertlotze: see the code14:43
srichterfor example:14:44
srichter    credentialsPlugins = zope.schema.List(14:44
srichter        title=_('Credentials Plugins'),14:44
srichter        value_type=zope.schema.Choice(vocabulary='CredentialsPlugins'),14:44
srichter        default=[],14:44
srichter        )14:44
*** _anguenot has joined #zope3-dev14:52
tlotzesrichter, thanks.14:54
*** ignas has quit IRC14:58
*** yota has joined #zope3-dev15:01
*** vlado has joined #zope3-dev15:29
*** benji has joined #zope3-dev15:51
*** philiKON has joined #zope3-dev15:53
*** benji has quit IRC15:57
*** benji has joined #zope3-dev15:57
*** agroszer has joined #zope3-dev15:59
*** jinty has joined #zope3-dev16:03
*** MrTopf_ has joined #zope3-dev16:12
*** MrTopf has quit IRC16:13
philiKONsrichter, ping16:49
*** sashav has quit IRC16:51
philiKONdoes anyone know if the ComponentArchitecutre wiki supports HTML input? or do i have to input STX?16:53
*** srichter has quit IRC16:53
*** zmi_junkie has joined #zope3-dev16:54
*** bradb has joined #zope3-dev16:54
*** srichter has joined #zope3-dev16:54
philiKONsrichter, ping16:55
*** srichter has quit IRC16:55
benjiphiliKON, I think the wiki is STX only16:55
*** srichter has joined #zope3-dev17:01
d2mi believe html is passed through - did you try it with a wiki page in your member area ?17:03
*** mkerrin has joined #zope3-dev17:05
philiKONd2m, hmm. no. too late now nayway ;)17:08
philiKONconverted my reST to stx17:08
d2mthats ok, just be careful with the column offset (stx literal blocks get wild when the first line does not start at column 0)17:09
philiKONyeah, no problem17:09
philiKONgeez, STX just sucks17:09
benjiphiliKON, no17:25
*** hdima has quit IRC17:26
*** GaryPoster has joined #zope3-dev17:26
philiKONbenji, i'm gonna need more than that ;)17:31
*** mkerrin has quit IRC17:31
*** mkerrin has joined #zope3-dev17:31
benjimy main objection is that it shifts the burden to the Z3 community, which doesn't have the resources to space17:31
GaryPosterI'm afraid I agree.17:32
philiKONdefinitely a good point17:32
*** agroszer has quit IRC17:32
philiKONthough part of the point is also that zope 2 community starts doing zope 3 stuff also17:32
philiKONthe whole "things don't get invented twice" theme17:33
philiKONnote that the five community also doesn't have many resources to spare and the burden of keeping zop e2 and zope 3 in sync has been on them17:33
benjiI think that goal would be better served by saying *nothing* gets invented in Z2, if you want something new, put it in Z3 and use it via Five17:33
philiKONwell, that's exactly the idea17:33
philiKONbut one of my arguments is:17:34
benjiok, then the Z2 repo is frozen, exept for bug fixes17:34
philiKONgoing to the zope 3 repo, making a branch, implementing stuff there, making a branch in zope 2, making a branch there, etc. is just too much of a burden17:34
philiKONuh, then i think there was a misunderstanding17:34
philiKONthe idea is that we converge zope 2 and zope 317:34
philiKONwhich basically means zope 2 will evolve to use more zope 3 technology17:34
philiKONuntil one day it's just a different configuration of zope 3, maybe17:35
philiKON(that's another proposal i'm preparing ;))17:35
philiKONi dont' think simply "use it via Five' will be enough17:36
philiKONenough to close the gap between 3rd party zope 2 code and zope 317:36
philiKONI take your criticism seriously, but i think the risk is limited, as i do point out in the proposal: it basically comes down to running tests and mkaing sure you're not breaking anything. if you break something, check in on a branch and consult some zope 2 people; or, the fix might be trivial and you can fix it yourself17:37
philiKONin practice, i'm not sure that the burden would exhaust our resources17:38
benjiphiliKON, for making sure we get visibility of Z3 changes not breaking Z2, I'd use the buildbot to run automated tests instead, 90% of the benifit, 10% of the burdon17:40
philiKONwell, unless the buildbot is configured to use a special kind of setup, this won't work17:41
philiKONwith the current way, the zope 2 tree uses a special revision or tag of zope 317:42
philiKONthat is the way it should be done when using svn:externals17:42
philiKONso whoever updates the revision or tag to a newer zope 3 release has the burden of deailing with the fixes17:42
philiKONI was that person this time17:42
philiKONand it was a hell of a lot of work17:42
philiKONof course, this was a special case also17:42
benjiright, so the buildbot could run a "bleeding edge" test, with current Z3 and Z217:43
philiKONbut i did spend some unnecessary time on fixing a minor bug introduced by a bugfix in zope 317:43
philiKONexcept that noone else except the buildbot would have such a checkout... i wonder how useful that is17:43
benjiwell, if the buildbot can do it, a person can too, we can make it easy17:44
philiKONanyways, ZC has been advocating the repository, in particular the Zope 3 tree for zope3-related software, "because then it will be maintained as zope 3 is refactored"... this is taking this idea over to zope 2...17:44
benjithe root issue (as GaryPoster has just clarified for me off-line) is whether or not Z3 devs should be responsible for breaking Z2 (and Five)17:44
philiKONi agree that there is a burden (it's mentioned under risks in the proposals), but i way the benefit higher than the burden. maybe that's where we disagree...17:45
Theunibenji:  are you connected to the buildbot effort for zope?17:45
GaryPosterHe he: Theuni, benji is buildbot :-)17:45
philiKONbenji, exactly.17:45
benjiI "don't care" (not really, but let's use those words) about Z2, so makeing me do anything for it takes time away from me17:45
philiKONbenji, it has always been MHO that by using zope 3 inside zope 2, the zope 3 community took on a certain responsbility, at least as far as release maintenance was concerned17:46
philiKONwe did a terrible job on that17:46
philiKON*all* bugfixes should have always been backported to the X3.0 branch17:46
philiKONit's friggin' actively released software17:46
philiKONthe latest stable as far as zope 2 is concerned17:47
philiKONmy proposal is steering both of the zop ecommunities into the direction of awareness of this fact17:47
benjimy perspective is the reverse, Z2 "chose" to use Z3, so that's where the burdon rests, some (most?) in the Z3 community don't care about Z2 any more and will refuse any extra burden caused by it17:47
Theunigood. benji when you have some time for discussing buildbot for zodb, can you ping me?17:48
philiKONi think many zope 3 developers still care about zope 2, but that's just my impression. it's also not quite the point17:48
benjii'll agree that the ill-defined nature of bug fix porting hurt 3.0, I hope by synchronizing releases of Z2 and Z3 that will be handled better17:49
philiKONthis might seem harsh, but i exactly want to put zope 2 on those people's radar who are just concerned about zope 3 right now17:49
philiKONi *want* you to care about zope 2, if that's what you want to hear17:49
* philiKON is looking for the asbestus underwear ;)17:50
philiKONi still think that the burden will be considerably small, just as it is small by zwiki, z3checkins, buddydemo, etc....17:51
philiKONthe real deal will be geddons, and we only have those once every major release *wink*17:51
benjiI don't really see that the price/value ratio is good enough for me (or people like me to be supportive) <shrug>17:53
benjiperhaps the entire world will come together to support your proposal, we'll see :)17:53
philiKONyes :). and it's not that i don't exactly know what you're saying17:54
philiKONi guess we just value that "price/value ratio" you mention differently17:54
philiKONanyways, it's been an itch ever since i did the zope 2.9/3.2 integration and i just had to get it out as a proposal; i can deal with rejection, but i am the kinda guy to say "told you so" in one or two years ;)17:55
benjigood, so am I :)17:56
benjiTheuni, what about buildbot did you want to discuss?17:56
philiKONi have the feeling this is going to be fun17:56
GaryPosterFor us professionally, this is Jim/ZC's decision AFAIK, and I don't need to get involved.  That said, I'm really not sure how you can say the burden will be small, especially since you are the one who just did the Zope 2/Zope 3 merge.  It was heroic, and one of many amazing services you have performed for both the Zope 2 and Zope 3 communities.  It was also huge, by your admission.  I greatly appreciate your position, and your efforts and talent, phili17:56
philiKONwell, the reason it was so huge were others17:57
philiKONand it's not the actual itch17:57
philiKONthe itch was that i realized even small zope 3 refactorings could break zope 2/five17:57
philiKONand it just takes time off another guy]17:57
philiKONwhile the actual fix would've been quickly done by the one doing the refactoring in the first place17:57
philiKONso, maybe i underestimate the burden...17:58
philiKONi dunno, that's why i'm RFCing...17:59
GaryPoster"For us professionally": I meant Benji and me.17:59
philiKONyup got that ;)17:59
GaryPoster:-) Cool.  Well, fight the noble fight. :-)18:00
philiKONwell, good then. i'm going to bed *grin*18:00
GaryPosterok, g'night18:00
philiKONbenji, GaryPoster, btw, reload the page; somehow the 'Problems' section got swallowed.18:05
philiKONok, i'm outta here18:06
*** philiKON has quit IRC18:06
Theunibenji:  i proposed to add buildbot tests for all the supported zodb versions. i would provide a windows and linux buildbot client.18:06
TheuniI could also write the test code ... I'd just like to see how you organised this for the zope tests ...18:07
benjisounds great, Theuni!18:07
*** stub has quit IRC18:07
benjiare you familure with buildbot?18:07
Theuniwe run one for alphaflow18:08
Theuniand i have a windows and linux machine to add some more clients to ...18:08
benjihow would you like to handle the development?  Perhaps you get the master/slaves running there and then send me your master.cfg and I'll integrate it into buildbot.zope.org18:09
Theunisounds good18:09
Theunii'd just like to see your application for zope, to see how you organised that ...18:09
benjisure, I can send you the master.cfg, sans passwords :)18:09
benjiwhat email address should I use18:10
* Theuni has to prop up his social engineering18:10 please18:10
benjiKevin Mitnick, you aren't   :)18:10
Theunii'm still allowed to touch computers18:10
SteveAwith your noodly appendage18:17
* Theuni raises an eyebrow and consults his dictionary18:17
* benji doesn't get it (and doesn't want to)18:18
GaryPosterlol again18:18
SteveAget with the internet zeitgeist Theuni !18:18
Theunisounds like spaghettimonster18:18
TheuniSteveA:  i think a very bad project took me off the hook for too long ...18:19
* Theuni mumbles18:19
TheuniSteveA:  got a car?18:19
SteveAno.  although, i may be arranging to rent (share-with-payment) an audi tt from a friend over the winter18:20
Theunihope it's a new one18:21
Theunithe old ones tended to kill their drivers ...18:21
SteveAby rolling over?18:21
Theunibenji:  can you attach the process definition too, please?18:21
TheuniSteveA:  not exactly, although the design would imply so. I think they broke out to the left or so. At like 200 km/h.18:22
benjiTheuni, not sure what the "process definition" is18:22
SteveAi don't think lithuanian roads go that fast, relative to cars18:22
Theunibenji:  for alphaflow i created a seperate file as intended by the documentation that holds the build and the buildfactory classes ...18:23
TheuniSteveA:  you could drive in the opposite direction, then the earth rotation helps you ...18:23
benjiTheuni, ours isn't that well engineered, it's all in master.cfg18:23
Theuni"well engineered: english, splitting things into two files."18:24
Theuni"well engineered: english, following the documentation and tutorial letter by letter"18:25
benjiis that a question, Theuni? or are you trying to create a space-time rift?18:26
Theuni.oO(uh-oh there comes the rift)18:27
TheuniI lost your point of reference for "the question"18:27
TheuniI think i'm completely fine with you sending me the config as is ... I just found out that the harder part will be about doing sensible checkouts on the various events ...18:28
benjiok, I suppose it doesn't matter :)18:28
Theunioh ... i just remembered that i have to check for coming to pycon next year ...18:29
Theunii need to get those damn blobs out of the door18:29
benjidon't worry about reacting to checkins, I'll do that (eventually)18:29
Theuninot that ok ... depending on the checkin i have to check for a different branch ...18:29
* Theuni scratches his head18:30
* Theuni has to look that up18:30
benjiwait untill you see the master.cfg, it does that for you, basically all you need to do is define a set of build steps18:31
*** dobee has quit IRC18:31
benjiit could use some re-working but the ideas it uses are at least on the right track18:31
Theunihmm. is the zope build working on multiple branches already?18:31
Theunii'll check that.18:32
benjiyep (multiple branches)18:32
TheuniHmm. is there a reason why the last test run only happened on a single client?18:33
benjiyep, that is Zope 2, and there is only one client running those tests18:34
benjiwell, fred-win is supposted to be, but it's having DNS issues18:35
Theunii missed that18:35
Theuniuh-ah .. hmm18:36
* Theuni has to get his visual studio cd for running zodb tests on windows ...18:36
benjiTheuni, I've sent the email with master.cfg18:40
benjifeel free to "well engineer" it18:40
Theunii'll make it work with zodb ... ;)18:42
*** sashav has joined #zope3-dev18:49
*** benji has quit IRC18:57
*** MrTopf_ has quit IRC18:58
*** GaryPoster has quit IRC19:03
*** Jim7J1AJH has joined #zope3-dev19:08
*** Jim7J1AJH has quit IRC19:10
*** jhauser has joined #zope3-dev19:14
*** jhauser_ has quit IRC19:25
*** ignas has joined #zope3-dev20:08
*** natea has joined #zope3-dev20:10
*** Aiste has quit IRC20:14
*** vlado has quit IRC20:23
*** hazmat has joined #zope3-dev20:30
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o hazmat20:30
*** ignas has quit IRC20:45
*** tarek has quit IRC21:07
*** tarek has joined #zope3-dev21:08
*** faassen has quit IRC21:12
*** sashav_ has joined #zope3-dev21:31
*** sashav has quit IRC21:31
*** sashav_ is now known as sashav21:31
*** clueck has joined #zope3-dev21:34
*** vlado has joined #zope3-dev22:05
*** natea has quit IRC22:18
*** dobee has joined #zope3-dev22:18
*** efge has quit IRC22:36
clueckhmm, when i register a menu with the <browser:menu> directive, I will be able to access it (the list of menu items) with something like context/@@view_get_menu/my_menu_id in ZPT, right?22:42
*** Aiste has joined #zope3-dev22:43
alienoidclueck: i guess yes22:46
clueckthanks, i'll give it a try..22:48
*** dobee has quit IRC22:56
*** mkerrin has quit IRC23:08
*** efge has joined #zope3-dev23:19
*** mgedmin has joined #zope3-dev23:42

Generated by 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!