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| romanofski | moin | 09:40 |
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| MacYET_ | morning | 16:32 |
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| _d2m | anyone here with zope.org Manager rights ? | 17:09 |
| srichter | did you lock yourself out? :-) | 17:09 |
| _d2m | no ;) but its something wrong | 17:10 |
| _d2m | /manage is redirected to / | 17:10 |
| srichter | oops | 17:10 |
| sawdog | I do :) | 17:10 |
| _d2m | must be a broken rewrite rule | 17:10 |
| _d2m | cool, thanks | 17:10 |
| sawdog | sec | 17:11 |
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| joelburton | hi, all. have a zope3 CA/zcml question. | 19:52 |
| joelburton | i have a marker interface, IRateable. I'd like all things that are folderish (implement IFolder) to also get this marker interface. | 19:52 |
| joelburton | I know that I can put this interface on all Folder obj (ie, derived from _class_ folder) by using <class class=Folder><implements interface=IRateable></class> | 19:52 |
| joelburton | but that's not exactly what i want... how can I say that all things that implement IFolder should also "have" IRateable? | 19:52 |
| joelburton | <class class=IFolder><implements interface=IRateable></class> (note the "I"Folder) isn't quite what I want, since it's not the IFolder interface itself that implements this, but all things that implement IFolder (and, it doesn't work anyway; Folder objects aren't getting the IRateable marker interface this way) | 19:52 |
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| whit | joelburton: do you want to dynamically mark them? | 19:53 |
| whit | I don't think you can do this through zcml | 19:54 |
| joelburton | well, how else could i solve the problem? (or am i thinking about it all wrong?) | 19:54 |
| whit | let me think | 19:54 |
| joelburton | so, i write this rating product; i want all "folderish" things on the site to be able to use it (ie, have the marker interface, so my adapter can be used) | 19:55 |
| joelburton | it doesn't seem good to individually try to figure out what the "folderish" classes are, and have them implement IRateable (seems fragile, and bypasses the whole point of having an IFolder interface) | 19:55 |
| whit | I think you mark everything that could be contained with a new interface | 19:56 |
| whit | and then maybe multiadapt that to the container | 19:56 |
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| whit | getMultiadapter(mycontainer, mycontent, IRateable) | 19:57 |
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| whit | maybe mark the container IRateableContainer | 19:58 |
| whit | and the content IRateableContent | 19:58 |
| joelburton | ok, let me re-state to make sure i understand | 19:58 |
| projekt01 | joelburton, what you need is a simply adapter for IFolder providing IRateable. | 19:58 |
| projekt01 | So everything what implements IFolder can be adapted to IRateable | 19:59 |
| joelburton | (i'm taking this example from philip's book, btw, so I have two interfaces, IRateable--the marker interface for i-can-be-rated, and IRating--the adapter that actually does the rating) | 19:59 |
| whit | whoops | 19:59 |
| whit | I thought you wanted all content in the folder to be rateable | 20:00 |
| projekt01 | Perhaps the IRateable adapter will store something in the IAnnotation of the Folder object | 20:00 |
| joelburton | i could add a statement in zcml to simply say <adapter for=Ifolder provides=IRating>, like I have already for <adaptor for=irateable provides=IRating> | 20:00 |
| joelburton | i know that will work, and that does meet my one objective of having all IFolderish things be able to use the rating system | 20:00 |
| joelburton | but it still doesn't get the marker interface of IRateable on the IFolder-ish things (which seems like a good thing to do, no?) | 20:01 |
| joelburton | (no, whit, i was just using folder as an example of a content type that i wanted to be rateable, since there aren't many other types by default in z3) | 20:01 |
| whit | right | 20:01 |
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| joelburton | projekt01: one sec, lemme try to understand your suggestion | 20:01 |
| projekt01 | yes, don't forget the factory <adapter for="IFolder" provides="IRateable" factory="MyRater" /> | 20:01 |
| whit | sorry...imagining a more complicated problem ;) | 20:01 |
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| projekt01 | the point is every IFolder is rateable, if not you need to mark selective folder objects with a marker and use this marker for register a adapter. | 20:02 |
| projekt01 | But if all IFolder should provide IReatable simply provide a adpater for IFolder | 20:03 |
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| whit | I think the confusion could be at the point of how you might use a marker here.... | 20:04 |
| projekt01 | Take a look at the ISize adapter as a sample for IFolder | 20:04 |
| whit | projekt01: if folder doesn't need a special adapter for IRateable you might just mark the folder with IRateable | 20:05 |
| whit | then adapt the folder to IRating right? | 20:05 |
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| projekt01 | yes, but we say adapt IRateable to IFolder | 20:06 |
| * whit has cold this morning and is a little fuzzy headed | 20:06 | |
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| whit | uh... | 20:07 |
| whit | what I want is IRating(folder).get() etc | 20:07 |
| joelburton | projeckt01: thanks, i understand that could work. but what's the best practice then, when sitting on a piece of content, to see if it's rateable? I'll no longer have a marketer interface (for folders, at least) that i can check. is it a good practice, to try to adapt it to my IRating, and if that fails, i know it's not rateable? (ie, i get rid of my marker interface and use the ability-to-adapt as the "marker"?) | 20:07 |
| joelburton | lemme go look at Size stuff ... | 20:08 |
| whit | I would think you would want to say IRateable.providedBy(folder) | 20:08 |
| whit | projekt01: am I spun around here? | 20:09 |
| projekt01 | whit, yes absolutly | 20:09 |
| joelburton | projekt01: right, so for the sizing stuff, there's no "Sizable" marker interface; instead, there's just the ISized adapter. if you want to say can-you-be-sized, you check for that, and the presence of absence of that is what people using when deciding to show-somethig-sizeish or such | 20:09 |
| projekt01 | no I' mean the first question is absolutly correct | 20:09 |
| projekt01 | whit, you are right with providedBy | 20:10 |
| whit | ah ok | 20:10 |
| whit | so joelburton: we have some unsuspecting content | 20:10 |
| whit | I want to see if it's Rateable | 20:10 |
| joelburton | right | 20:10 |
| whit | I say IRateable.provideBy(content) | 20:10 |
| whit | we'll say I get false | 20:11 |
| whit | at this point, I can mark it IRateable | 20:11 |
| whit | and all adapters for IRateable will be in effect | 20:11 |
| joelburton | (mark it IRateable==directlyProvides that, i assume?) | 20:12 |
| whit | so, originally, you were marking all | 20:12 |
| projekt01 | no | 20:12 |
| whit | folders using zcml right | 20:12 |
| whit | no? | 20:12 |
| projekt01 | directlyProvides will only mark a instance | 20:12 |
| joelburton | err, that's what i thought whit was suggesting ;) | 20:12 |
| whit | right...in this case we are just marking the instance | 20:12 |
| whit | you can use the implements directive and mark a class | 20:13 |
| projekt01 | yes | 20:13 |
| whit | ok...cool...still on the tracks | 20:13 |
| projekt01 | ;-) | 20:13 |
| joelburton | do you mind if i step back and re-state. i'm not sure i understand the answers i'm getting ;) | 20:13 |
| whit | sure | 20:13 |
| projekt01 | ok | 20:14 |
| joelburton | I want to be able to rate content (an example in philip's book; it's not my real problem, but it's similar enough that i'm re-casting it in his language) | 20:14 |
| joelburton | i have an adapter, IRating and an implementation of it, Rating. | 20:14 |
| joelburton | if i manually adapt (via the debugger) a folder to IRating, I can add the ratings to that folder | 20:15 |
| joelburton | that's all well and good | 20:15 |
| joelburton | but, of course, i want to, in zcml, have that adapt-ability be declared | 20:15 |
| joelburton | i could say <adapter for=IFolder provides=IRating factory=Rating> | 20:16 |
| joelburton | then, all IFolder-derived things can be adapted to my rating tool | 20:16 |
| joelburton | which is good | 20:16 |
| joelburton | it appears that that's how the sizing stuff (ISized, etc) works | 20:16 |
| whit | that's a tighter coupling | 20:16 |
| joelburton | however, in philip's book, he creates a marker interface IRateable, and suggests that we can use this instead | 20:17 |
| whit | yes | 20:17 |
| joelburton | so my adaptor in zcml above is changed to <adaptor for=IRateable provides=IRating factory=Rating> | 20:17 |
| whit | uh...maybe not | 20:17 |
| whit | let's start with the interface IRating | 20:18 |
| projekt01 | no to: <adapter for=IFolder... | 20:18 |
| whit | you want an object with IRating | 20:18 |
| whit | to do rating stuff | 20:18 |
| joelburton | and, then, if i have Folder (the class, not the interface) implement IRateable (via <class class=Folder><implements interface=IRatable></class>) it works | 20:18 |
| joelburton | (that was continuing my question, not replying to you, whit) | 20:18 |
| whit | yes | 20:19 |
| whit | that is correct | 20:19 |
| projekt01 | joelburton, yes, this will mae all folder class and inherited objects implementing IRateable | 20:19 |
| whit | the idea is that the adapter that provides IRating is not special | 20:19 |
| joelburton | right, projeck01, i have that, both working and understood | 20:19 |
| whit | so anything could have IRateable and be adapted | 20:20 |
| whit | to IRating | 20:20 |
| whit | so, by using the marker pattern, you can be declarative about what is Rateable | 20:20 |
| projekt01 | you also could register a adapter for the class Folder like: <adapter for=Folder ...> which is the same | 20:20 |
| projekt01 | there is no need for a marker interface in your use case | 20:21 |
| whit | but by using one, you can easily share the behavior using the same adapter implementation | 20:21 |
| projekt01 | the marker IRateable is a dead chicken in this case | 20:22 |
| whit | ;) | 20:22 |
| projekt01 | You always will ask: IRating.providedBy(object) | 20:22 |
| projekt01 | And adapt like: myRatingAdapter = IRating(object) | 20:23 |
| joelburton | thanks, projeckt01, i understand that. that's an acceptable practice? (ie, you don't think there's a point in having IRateable as a marker interface at all, since the check for provision of IRating is a suitable way to check for can-you-be-rated) | 20:23 |
| whit | projekt01: if IRating.providedBy(object): IRating(object) == object | 20:24 |
| projekt01 | no | 20:25 |
| joelburton | (err, no to which question? ;) ) | 20:25 |
| whit | sorry... | 20:25 |
| projekt01 | IRating(object) = implements(IRating) | 20:26 |
| projekt01 | object != implements(IRating) | 20:26 |
| projekt01 | between them is a adapter | 20:26 |
| whit | right...but that adapter needs a for interface | 20:27 |
| projekt01 | Yes that's IFolder | 20:27 |
| whit | whether it be IRateable or IRating or IFolder | 20:27 |
| whit | right | 20:27 |
| whit | which is fine if all you want to rate is folders | 20:28 |
| projekt01 | IRating.providedBy(object) will check for a IRating implementation or a adapter and return True or False | 20:28 |
| joelburton | projekt01: i'm sorry, but if you answer my last question, i'm not sure i understand: is it an acceptable practice to *not* have any marker interface (ie, IRateable), and instead rely on the ability to adapt an object as the "marker" for that-object-is-rateable? | 20:28 |
| whit | yes....this is the angle I was heading at | 20:29 |
| whit | joelburton: not to answer for projekt01. but yes, depending on what you are doing | 20:29 |
| projekt01 | joelburton, Yes, absolutly, the call IRating(object, None) will also return None. So you get a built in if/else | 20:30 |
| joelburton | i wonder, then, why, philip has in his book this example w/the IRateable interface. it certainly seems easier to remove that and provide direct adaptation (ie, IFolder->IRating, etc.) | 20:30 |
| joelburton | thanks, whit and projekt01: i appreciate your help and patience very much! | 20:31 |
| whit | joelburton: it provides headroom for doing more complicated stuff | 20:31 |
| joelburton | ok, whit, i can believe that | 20:31 |
| whit | basically, all you care about is getting a IRating object | 20:31 |
| whit | using a marker lets you more easily extend what can adapt to that | 20:32 |
| projekt01 | joelburton, that's a little outdated and some parts where not possible at this time | 20:32 |
| whit | projekt01: does the new CA change how this would work? | 20:32 |
| * whit has used this pattern on 3.0 stuff | 20:32 | |
| joelburton | whit: so, if i did go down the road of using the marker interface, though, it would lead back to my original question, which was "how could i make sure that everything that implements IFolder also would implement IRateable" | 20:33 |
| joelburton | and it sounded like there was no way to make that kind of declaration in zcml | 20:33 |
| whit | joelburton: if you are not using a marker, you only care about IRating | 20:33 |
| joelburton | yes, i know | 20:33 |
| projekt01 | whit, right I guess IRating(object, None) is newer. But the concept at all is the same. | 20:33 |
| whit | right | 20:34 |
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| joelburton | i know, whit, i'm following up on your point that the marker-interface technique could be powerful for complex stuff | 20:34 |
| whit | yes....projekt01 has made some very nice marker libs | 20:34 |
| joelburton | and, to help me understand, if i did go down that road (wanting the marker interface), it appears that there's no easy way to say all-things-that-imp-IFolder-should-imp-IRateable | 20:34 |
| joelburton | (url or name for these marker libs, please?) | 20:35 |
| projekt01 | svn://svn.tiks.org/repos/tiks.generic | 20:35 |
| whit | lets see | 20:36 |
| projekt01 | or see http://viewcvs.tiks.org | 20:36 |
| whit | there is no zcml for saying this Interface now extends this interface right? | 20:36 |
| projekt01 | dobee, ayt? | 20:36 |
| whit | you could mark the class via implements right | 20:36 |
| * whit now gets what he was missing before | 20:37 | |
| whit | so this is why projekt01 was saying dead chicken | 20:37 |
| whit | you would have to adapt IFolder to IRating | 20:37 |
| whit | I think in philips example, the marker is on a class not an Interface | 20:38 |
| * whit quacks like a duck | 20:38 | |
| whit | joelburton: so....in zcml, this would just be an adapter | 20:38 |
| whit | so you could setup an adapter from IFolder to IRating | 20:39 |
| projekt01 | whit, you mean IRating to IFolder | 20:39 |
| whit | yeah yeah....sry | 20:40 |
| projekt01 | ;-) | 20:40 |
| whit | these things are directional.... | 20:40 |
| projekt01 | IRating(IFolder) | 20:40 |
| whit | then...say you were in five and want to mark a set of classes to use IRating | 20:40 |
| joelburton | i know how to do that | 20:40 |
| joelburton | that's not the question, though | 20:41 |
| joelburton | :) | 20:41 |
| whit | ok | 20:41 |
| whit | sorry | 20:41 |
| joelburton | (sorry, not stomping; i just didn't want you to have to type out an explanation i didn't need ;) ) | 20:41 |
| joelburton | gotta save whit some work ;) | 20:41 |
| whit | danke ;) | 20:41 |
| * whit runs off in all directions | 20:42 | |
| whit | so....what was the question again :) | 20:42 |
| * projekt01 is going to dinner, see you later | 20:43 | |
| whit | see you projekt01 :) | 20:43 |
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| whit | joelburton: this tiks lib is all designed for doing cms stuff | 20:45 |
| joelburton | interesting; i'm taking a look at it now | 20:45 |
| whit | the real power of marker is on instances | 20:47 |
| whit | in Five.utilities.marker there are some simple marking utils | 20:48 |
| whit | and in 2.9, this powers the Interface tab (this is basically an impoverished port of Flon) | 20:48 |
| srichter | anyone here who knows ZConfig well? | 20:56 |
| srichter | can I have multiple configuration sections in the same file? | 20:56 |
| russf | Joel. Since you are doc maven (!), and IF you have the time (might take an hour to do it justice), jfroche and I are looking for critique of a Five tutorial that's headed for Plone.org. http://www.jfroche.be/open-source/zope-plone/treewalker | 20:57 |
| russf | sorry joelburton : ^^ | 20:57 |
| joelburton | russf; lemme take a look at it, thx | 20:58 |
| * srichter notes that the Plone developers take over the Zope 3 channel... good his evil Z3 conversion conspiracy is working :-) | 20:58 | |
| whit | whoa...that's wierd | 20:58 |
| whit | I thought I was talking to joelburton on plone | 20:58 |
| russf | srichter: and it's working both ways! | 20:58 |
| russf | whit: you were | 20:59 |
| srichter | :-) | 20:59 |
| whit | hey russf | 20:59 |
| whit | nice doctests ;) | 20:59 |
| russf | whit: hey man! Wanna take a look at our doc for us? | 20:59 |
| russf | oh . You have done?? | 20:59 |
| whit | I read it last night | 20:59 |
| whit | need to read it again....twas late | 21:00 |
| russf | Cool. Any comments? | 21:00 |
| russf | ok | 21:00 |
| russf | Look for anything that is not clear, or is plain missing | 21:00 |
| whit | it was very clear and a good read | 21:00 |
| * russf not sure how you look for something that's missing in a doc | 21:00 | |
| russf | great. thanks for the comment. that's another weizen you owe me ;) | 21:00 |
| whit | but I'll give it a critical read for details | 21:00 |
| russf | and jfroche! | 21:01 |
| russf | great. thanks. | 21:01 |
| whit | :) | 21:01 |
| russf | best follow up by the email on at the bottom of that page, and hit us both at the same time. | 21:01 |
| whit | somebody needs to create a web app for counting beers | 21:01 |
| whit | cool...will do | 21:01 |
| russf | I'll do it! | 21:01 |
| * russf he heh! | 21:01 | |
| whit | I want to add a plugin to skeletor for loading docs like that into plone.org tutorials | 21:02 |
| russf | aha. I don't know how we'll handle zip uploads in the new ATImage version of ATPhotoAlbum. Might be something there in common. | 21:03 |
| russf | Since we have a tree walker, we might need a seedlingStarter | 21:03 |
| russf | start with a zip file and water it. | 21:04 |
| russf | and it grows leaves | 21:04 |
| whit | nice... | 21:04 |
| russf | ;) | 21:04 |
| whit | I wonder if something like the .metadata files in cmf might work for that | 21:04 |
| russf | maybe. BTW, we're adding some eye candy to our doc, and you'll be pleased (?) to know that you are part of it ;) | 21:05 |
| russf | cute cameo of you and Spanky | 21:06 |
| whit | ah....darthspanky, dark lord of schemaburger | 21:06 |
| whit | :) | 21:06 |
| whit | nice | 21:06 |
| russf | Right. Cool to hang out in Z3D for a bit, now back to work. | 21:06 |
| whit | cya russf | 21:08 |
| whit | :) | 21:08 |
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| whit | hey yall | 22:41 |
| whit | got a CA question | 22:41 |
| whit | is there a proper way to check if the CA is up and running? | 22:42 |
| RockyBurt | whit: its an extended technique of properly navigating the stars :) | 22:44 |
| whit | typical neuffie answer.... :p | 22:44 |
| * whit chuckles | 22:44 | |
| * whit applies virgin arm test | 22:45 | |
| whit | wait....apidoc does store info about what packages register what.... | 22:45 |
| whit | that would let me see if five had been improperly loaded | 22:45 |
| srichter | yes it would | 22:48 |
| srichter | the CA is always up and running | 22:48 |
| srichter | as soon as you import the right zope.component module, the registry is setup | 22:48 |
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| whit | this is new though right? this was different in X3.0 right? | 23:01 |
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| sawdog | Jim, you here? | 23:50 |
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