IRC log of #zope3-dev for Friday, 2006-02-17

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_d2manyone here with Manager rights ?17:09
srichterdid you lock yourself out? :-)17:09
_d2mno ;) but its something wrong17:10
_d2m /manage is redirected to /17:10
sawdogI do :)17:10
_d2mmust be a broken rewrite rule17:10
_d2mcool, thanks17:10
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joelburtonhi, all. have a zope3 CA/zcml question.19:52
joelburtoni have a marker interface, IRateable. I'd like all things that are folderish (implement IFolder) to also get this marker interface.19:52
joelburtonI know that I can put this interface on all Folder obj (ie, derived from _class_ folder) by using <class class=Folder><implements interface=IRateable></class>19:52
joelburtonbut that's not exactly what i want... how can I say that all things that implement IFolder should also "have" IRateable?19:52
joelburton<class class=IFolder><implements interface=IRateable></class> (note the "I"Folder) isn't quite what I want, since it's not the IFolder interface itself that implements this, but all things that implement IFolder (and, it doesn't work anyway; Folder objects aren't getting the IRateable marker interface this way)19:52
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whitjoelburton: do you want to dynamically mark them?19:53
whitI don't think you can do this through zcml19:54
joelburtonwell, how else could i solve the problem? (or am i thinking about it all wrong?)19:54
whitlet me think19:54
joelburtonso, i write this rating product; i want all "folderish" things on the site to be able to use it (ie, have the marker interface, so my adapter can be used)19:55
joelburtonit doesn't seem good to individually try to figure out what the "folderish" classes are, and have them implement IRateable (seems fragile, and bypasses the whole point of having an IFolder interface)19:55
whitI think you mark everything that could be contained with a new interface19:56
whitand then maybe multiadapt that to the container19:56
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whitgetMultiadapter(mycontainer, mycontent, IRateable)19:57
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whitmaybe mark the container IRateableContainer19:58
whitand the content IRateableContent19:58
joelburtonok, let me re-state to make sure i understand19:58
projekt01joelburton, what you need is a simply adapter for IFolder providing IRateable.19:58
projekt01So everything what implements IFolder can be adapted to IRateable19:59
joelburton(i'm taking this example from philip's book, btw, so I have two interfaces, IRateable--the marker interface for i-can-be-rated, and IRating--the adapter that actually does the rating)19:59
whitI thought you wanted all content in the folder to be rateable20:00
projekt01Perhaps the IRateable adapter will store something in the IAnnotation of the Folder object20:00
joelburtoni could add a statement in zcml to simply say <adapter for=Ifolder provides=IRating>, like I have already for <adaptor for=irateable provides=IRating>20:00
joelburtoni know that will work, and that does meet my one objective of having all IFolderish things be able to use the rating system20:00
joelburtonbut it still doesn't get the marker interface of IRateable on the IFolder-ish things (which seems like a good thing to do, no?)20:01
joelburton(no, whit, i was just using folder as an example of a content type that i wanted to be rateable, since there aren't many other types by default in z3)20:01
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joelburtonprojekt01: one sec, lemme try to understand your suggestion20:01
projekt01yes, don't forget the factory <adapter for="IFolder" provides="IRateable" factory="MyRater"  />20:01
whitsorry...imagining a more complicated problem ;)20:01
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projekt01the point is every IFolder is rateable, if not you need to mark selective folder objects with a marker and use this marker for register a adapter.20:02
projekt01But if all IFolder should provide IReatable simply provide a adpater for IFolder20:03
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whitI think the confusion could be at the point of how you might use a marker here....20:04
projekt01Take a look at the ISize adapter as a sample for IFolder20:04
whitprojekt01: if folder doesn't need a special adapter for IRateable you might just mark the folder with IRateable20:05
whitthen adapt the folder to IRating right?20:05
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projekt01yes, but we say adapt IRateable to IFolder20:06
* whit has cold this morning and is a little fuzzy headed20:06
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whitwhat I want is IRating(folder).get()  etc20:07
joelburtonprojeckt01: thanks, i understand that could work. but what's the best practice then, when sitting on a piece of content, to see if it's rateable? I'll no longer have  a marketer interface (for folders, at least) that i can check. is it a good practice, to try to adapt it to my IRating, and if that fails, i know it's not rateable? (ie, i get rid of my marker interface and use the ability-to-adapt as the "marker"?)20:07
joelburtonlemme go look at Size stuff ...20:08
whitI would think you would want to say IRateable.providedBy(folder)20:08
whitprojekt01: am I spun around here?20:09
projekt01whit, yes absolutly20:09
joelburtonprojekt01: right, so for the sizing stuff, there's no "Sizable" marker interface; instead, there's just the ISized adapter. if you want to say can-you-be-sized, you check for that, and the presence of absence of that is what people using when deciding to show-somethig-sizeish or such20:09
projekt01no I' mean the first question is absolutly correct20:09
projekt01whit, you are right with providedBy20:10
whitah ok20:10
whitso joelburton: we have some unsuspecting content20:10
whitI want to see if it's Rateable20:10
whitI say  IRateable.provideBy(content)20:10
whitwe'll say I get false20:11
whitat this point, I can mark it IRateable20:11
whitand all adapters for IRateable will be in effect20:11
joelburton(mark it IRateable==directlyProvides that, i assume?)20:12
whitso, originally, you were marking all20:12
whitfolders using zcml right20:12
projekt01directlyProvides will only mark a instance20:12
joelburtonerr, that's what i thought whit was suggesting ;)20:12 this case we are just marking the instance20:12
whityou can use the implements directive and mark a class20:13
projekt01yes20:13 on the tracks20:13
joelburtondo you mind if i step back and re-state. i'm not sure i understand the answers i'm getting ;)20:13
joelburtonI want to be able to rate content (an example in philip's book; it's not my real problem, but it's similar enough that i'm re-casting it in his language)20:14
joelburtoni have an adapter, IRating and an implementation of it, Rating.20:14
joelburtonif i manually adapt (via the debugger) a folder to IRating, I can add the ratings to that folder20:15
joelburtonthat's all well and good20:15
joelburtonbut, of course, i want to, in zcml, have that adapt-ability be declared20:15
joelburtoni could say <adapter for=IFolder provides=IRating factory=Rating>20:16
joelburtonthen, all IFolder-derived things can be adapted to my rating tool20:16
joelburtonwhich is good20:16
joelburtonit appears that that's how the sizing stuff (ISized, etc) works20:16
whitthat's a tighter coupling20:16
joelburtonhowever, in philip's book, he creates a marker interface IRateable, and suggests that we can use this instead20:17
joelburtonso my adaptor in zcml above is changed to <adaptor for=IRateable provides=IRating factory=Rating>20:17
whituh...maybe not20:17
whitlet's start with the interface IRating20:18
projekt01no to: <adapter for=IFolder...20:18
whityou want an object with IRating20:18
whitto do rating stuff20:18
joelburtonand, then, if i have Folder (the class, not the interface) implement IRateable (via <class class=Folder><implements interface=IRatable></class>) it works20:18
joelburton(that was continuing my question, not replying to you, whit)20:18
whitthat is correct20:19
projekt01joelburton, yes, this will mae all folder class and inherited objects implementing IRateable20:19
whitthe idea is that the adapter that provides IRating is not special20:19
joelburtonright, projeck01, i have that, both working and understood20:19
whitso anything could have IRateable and be adapted20:20
whitto IRating20:20
whitso, by using the marker pattern, you can be declarative about what is Rateable20:20
projekt01you also could register a adapter for the class Folder like: <adapter for=Folder ...> which is the same20:20
projekt01there is no need for a marker interface in your use case20:21
whitbut by using one, you can easily share the behavior using the same adapter implementation20:21
projekt01the marker IRateable is a dead chicken in this case20:22
projekt01You always will ask: IRating.providedBy(object)20:22
projekt01And adapt like: myRatingAdapter = IRating(object)20:23
joelburtonthanks, projeckt01, i understand that. that's an acceptable practice? (ie, you don't think there's a point in having IRateable as a marker interface at all, since the check for provision of IRating is a suitable way to check for can-you-be-rated)20:23
whitprojekt01: if IRating.providedBy(object):   IRating(object)  == object20:24
joelburton(err, no to which question? ;) )20:25
projekt01IRating(object) = implements(IRating)20:26
projekt01object != implements(IRating)20:26
projekt01between them is a adapter20:26
whitright...but that adapter needs a for interface20:27
projekt01Yes that's IFolder20:27
whitwhether it be IRateable or IRating or IFolder20:27
whitwhich is fine if all you want to rate is folders20:28
projekt01IRating.providedBy(object) will check for a IRating implementation or a adapter and return True or False20:28
joelburtonprojekt01: i'm sorry, but if you answer my last question, i'm not sure i understand: is it an acceptable practice to *not* have any marker interface (ie, IRateable), and instead rely on the ability to adapt an object as the "marker" for that-object-is-rateable?20:28
whityes....this is the angle I was heading at20:29
whitjoelburton: not to answer for projekt01. but yes, depending on what you are doing20:29
projekt01joelburton, Yes, absolutly, the call IRating(object, None) will also return None. So you get a built in if/else20:30
joelburtoni wonder, then, why, philip has in his book this example w/the IRateable interface. it certainly seems easier to remove that and provide direct adaptation (ie, IFolder->IRating, etc.)20:30
joelburtonthanks, whit and projekt01: i appreciate your help and patience very much!20:31
whitjoelburton: it provides headroom for doing more complicated stuff20:31
joelburtonok, whit, i can believe that20:31
whitbasically, all you care about is getting a IRating object20:31
whitusing a marker lets you more easily extend what can adapt to that20:32
projekt01joelburton, that's a little outdated and some parts where not possible at this time20:32
whitprojekt01: does the new CA change how this would work?20:32
* whit has used this pattern on 3.0 stuff20:32
joelburtonwhit: so, if i did go down the road of using the marker interface, though, it would lead back to my original question, which was "how could i make sure that everything that implements IFolder also would implement IRateable"20:33
joelburtonand it sounded like there was no way to make that kind of declaration in zcml20:33
whitjoelburton: if you are not using a marker, you only care about IRating20:33
joelburtonyes, i know20:33
projekt01whit, right I guess IRating(object, None) is newer. But the concept at all is the same.20:33
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joelburtoni know, whit, i'm following up on your point that the marker-interface technique could be powerful for complex stuff20:34
whityes....projekt01 has made some very nice marker libs20:34
joelburtonand, to help me understand, if i did go down that road (wanting the marker interface), it appears that there's no easy way to say all-things-that-imp-IFolder-should-imp-IRateable20:34
joelburton(url or name for these marker libs, please?)20:35
whitlets see20:36
projekt01or see http://viewcvs.tiks.org20:36
whitthere is no zcml for saying this Interface now extends this interface right?20:36
projekt01dobee, ayt?20:36
whityou could mark the class via implements right20:36
* whit now gets what he was missing before20:37
whitso this is why projekt01 was saying dead chicken20:37
whityou would have to adapt IFolder to IRating20:37
whitI think in philips example, the marker is on a class not an Interface20:38
* whit quacks like a duck20:38
whitjoelburton: zcml, this would just  be an adapter20:38
whitso you could setup an adapter from IFolder to IRating20:39
projekt01whit, you mean IRating to IFolder20:39
whityeah yeah....sry20:40
whitthese things are directional....20:40
whitthen...say you were in five and want to mark a set of classes to use IRating20:40
joelburtoni know how to do that20:40
joelburtonthat's not the question, though20:41
joelburton(sorry, not stomping; i just didn't want you to have to type out an explanation i didn't need ;) )20:41
joelburtongotta save whit some work ;)20:41
whitdanke ;)20:41
* whit runs off in all directions20:42
whitso....what was the question again :)20:42
* projekt01 is going to dinner, see you later20:43
whitsee you projekt01 :)20:43
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whitjoelburton: this tiks lib is all designed for doing cms stuff20:45
joelburtoninteresting; i'm taking a look at it now20:45
whitthe real power of marker is on instances20:47
whitin Five.utilities.marker there are some simple marking utils20:48
whitand in 2.9, this powers the Interface tab (this is basically an impoverished port of Flon)20:48
srichteranyone here who knows ZConfig well?20:56
srichtercan I have multiple configuration sections in the same file?20:56
russfJoel. Since you are doc maven (!), and IF you have the time (might take an hour to do it justice), jfroche and I are looking for critique of a Five tutorial that's headed for
russfsorry joelburton : ^^20:57
joelburtonrussf; lemme take a look at it, thx20:58
* srichter notes that the Plone developers take over the Zope 3 channel... good his evil Z3 conversion conspiracy is working :-)20:58
whitwhoa...that's wierd20:58
whitI thought I was  talking to joelburton on plone20:58
russfsrichter:  and it's working both ways!20:58
russfwhit: you were20:59
whithey russf20:59
whitnice doctests ;)20:59
russfwhit: hey man! Wanna take a look at our doc for us?20:59
russfoh . You have done??20:59
whitI read it last night20:59
whitneed to read it again....twas late21:00
russfCool. Any comments?21:00
russfLook for anything that is not clear, or is plain missing21:00
whitit was very clear and a good read21:00
* russf not sure how you look for something that's missing in a doc21:00
russfgreat. thanks for the comment. that's another weizen you owe me ;)21:00
whitbut I'll give it a critical read for details21:00
russfand jfroche!21:01
russfgreat. thanks.21:01
russfbest follow up by the email on at the bottom of that page, and hit us both at the same time.21:01
whitsomebody needs to create a web app for counting beers21:01
whitcool...will do21:01
russfI'll do it!21:01
* russf he heh!21:01
whitI want to add a plugin to skeletor for loading docs like that into tutorials21:02
russfaha. I don't know how we'll handle zip uploads in the new ATImage version of ATPhotoAlbum. Might be something there in common.21:03
russfSince we have a tree walker, we might need a seedlingStarter21:03
russfstart with a zip file and water it.21:04
russfand it grows leaves21:04
whitI wonder if something like the .metadata files in cmf might work for that21:04
russfmaybe. BTW, we're adding some eye candy to our doc, and you'll be pleased (?) to know that you are part of it ;)21:05
russfcute cameo of you and Spanky21:06
whitah....darthspanky, dark lord of schemaburger21:06
russfRight. Cool to hang out in Z3D for a bit, now back to work.21:06
whitcya russf21:08
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whithey yall22:41
whitgot a CA question22:41
whitis there a proper way to check if the CA is up and running?22:42
RockyBurtwhit: its an extended technique of properly navigating the stars :)22:44
whittypical neuffie answer.... :p22:44
* whit chuckles22:44
* whit applies virgin arm test22:45
whitwait....apidoc does store info about what packages register what....22:45
whitthat would let me see if five had been improperly loaded22:45
srichteryes it would22:48
srichterthe CA is always up and running22:48
srichteras soon as you import the right zope.component module, the registry is setup22:48
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whitthis is new though right? this was different in X3.0 right?23:01
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sawdogJim, you here?23:50
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