IRC log of #zope3-dev for Thursday, 2006-03-16

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joshznewpers: i am not registerd cannot private message you back01:07
joshzsend me your email01:07
newpers:) k01:07
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dobeehi all, does anybody know if it is possible to create some kind of pythonpath overlay. in my concrete case i want to use the zope 3.2 release and then add from the trunk to the path by putting it into my instance lib/python directory and  without copying or linking it into the 3.2 library directory10:51
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dobeehi, does anybody know, why twisted is not defined in
dobeeit is needed by
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dobeei'd like to add this line to twisted        ../src/twisted15:29
srichtermmh, you are right15:34
srichterI wonder how the TAR balls worked...15:34
dobeeme too15:34
srichterbecause we made already a twisted-based release and twisted was included15:34
srichterjinty should know; he is the master of dependencies! :-)15:34
srichterjinty: ???? :-)15:34
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dobeesrichter: just to make be sure - shouldn't zpkg -C releases/Zope.cfg always work?15:37
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dobeeon a fresh trunk checkout15:37
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dobeejinty: do you know why twisted is not defined in, it is used in
srichterdobee: yes it should15:43
dobeeok, i'll add it then, thx15:44
srichterdobee: jinty runs tar ball creation scripts every night for SchoolTool, which includes Zope 3 trunk15:44
srichterwhich is the reason I am so surprised15:44
dobeesrichter: do you use twisted or zserver15:44
dobeesrichter: additionally there is some issue with the packages needed by TestBrowser ,which are excluded in the schooltool packages15:45
dobeesrichter: btw: it just prints a line telling that twisted was ignored, the packaging works, the error occurs if you try to run an instance15:47
srichterdobee: ah, good point, we probably still use zserver15:47
srichterok, cool15:47
srichterthen it should definitely be added15:48
srichterdoes it build now?15:53
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jintysrichter: My tarball runs currently fail for this reason:, I cannot figure neither head nor tail of it.16:03
srichterjinty: well you dobee's help now :-)16:05
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dobeesrichter: yes it builds, i've already done it before i checked it in16:12
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dobeebut only with the excludes as defined in schooltool16:12
dobeesrichter: jinty this error occurs16:16
dobee'ClientForm' is an invalid distribution component: all components must either be a Python package or provide a SETUP.cfg file16:16
dobeeobviously there is no SETUP.cfg file in ClientForm because it is a file16:18
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jintydobee: sorry, been afk a while. Your error is probably because you have an older version of zpkg. you need the latest trunk.17:36
dobeejinty: ah ok i'll try then17:36
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joshzdo any zope developers use Eric IDE?17:46
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joshzare there any zope3 tutorials that still work?20:17
tristilThe worldcookery ones?20:24
joshzyeah the quickstart zope does not work20:25
joshzexamples not working has been my biggest problem so far20:26
joshzits really taking up a lot of time20:26
yotanot working with 3.2 release or trunk ?20:27
joshzlatest release20:31
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tristilWhich part?20:33
joshztristil: which part of what?20:34
tristilthe quickstart tutorial?20:34
joshzwhen I added the view part20:34
tristilWhat happened?20:35
joshzno permission to get attribute...20:35
tristilYeah, I think I got that too :)20:35
joshzproblem is I have no idea what that means20:35
joshzand furthermore no way to find out20:36
tristilYou can do it in different places, I think,20:37
tristilBut in the content declaration you do <require permission="zope.View" attributes="title" />20:38
joshzwhy don't they update the doc20:38
tristil"They" is kind of a scattered community. I don't know why.20:39
tristilI'm a Plone person myself.20:39
tristilThey don't even have a website.20:39
joshzultimately this effects the product itself, scares away potential users and developer20:40
tristilI agree.20:40
tristilIt's crazy.20:40
joshzits a shame because the ideas that zope supports are good and useful20:41
tristilIt makes nothing else they do matter, in the grand scheme of things.20:41
joshzvery true20:41
joshzit certainly has the 'camping out' feel20:41
tristilYou could use this:
joshzi wonder how it can be remedied20:42
tristilIf you want to deal with Zope2.20:42
joshzi dont want to mess with the 5 project20:42
tristilBut basically the deal is that you have to give permission to edit fields.20:43
joshzthanks that only took 3 hours20:43
tristilAnd I think you can either do it on the content type, or in the add and editforms.20:43
joshzhow did you learn that20:44
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tiredbonesjoshz, have you looked at the online book, zope3book?20:45
joshzyeah those examples dont work either20:45
joshzthe latest updates on the zope svn are totally different20:45
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tiredbonesjoshz, do you have Stepen or Philips book?20:47
joshzno do i have to buy it to get anywhere?20:48
tiredbonesjoshz, well the moer points of views you have the better your understanding will. At least fo me anyway.20:49
smjoshz: the test of stephan's is online I believe - start at the zope 3 wiki20:49
smphilips is usually recommended most for people starting out20:50
smneither is completely up to date, otherwise both are good20:50
smwhat about benji york's quickstart, have you found that one ?20:51
tristilPhilip's book is very good.20:52
joshzwe were just talking about how the quickstart doesn work20:53
joshzso in other words jsut hacking away at this is pointless20:53
joshzim thinking about just modifying buddylist to do what I want20:53
tristilThat's probably the way to go.20:54
tristilThe Schoolbell code is good code to look at for a larger example.20:54
joshzbut anytime I change anything the whole thing breaks in a way I cannot fathom20:54
joshzits really crazy20:54
joshzzope is not user friendly under the ZMI20:55
kamalgilljoshz: if you're considering attending a Zope 3 training course, we're offering early-bird pricing on our course until April 15
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joshzkamalgill: you already tried pitching that to me... sorry20:56
kamalgillah, ok.  not sure if you saw the reduced pricing.20:57
joshzim in phoenix20:58
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joshzlooks like a good course though21:00
joshzgood luck21:00
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sawdogI'd go to that class Kamalgill, except for the instructor :)21:36
kamalgillsawdog: sorry? not sure what you mean21:37
sawdogI'd go if it weren't for the instructor21:38
joshzisnt it S Richter?21:41
sawdogI was kidding21:42
sawdogStephan is ok21:42
joshzi have to say that the lack of support here is ridiculous21:42
sawdogwhere you at?21:42
joshzim going through the buddy list code21:42
joshzhalf the stuff here I cant make heads or tails of21:42
sawdogno idea what you're talking about.  :)21:43
joshzAddForm, etc. where do you learn what this stuff means?21:43
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sawdogAh, you reading zcml or something?21:43
joshzI have no idea how the zcml works21:43
joshzwhere are the docs on zcml?21:43
joshzfurthermore these python interfaces are very cumbersome21:44
sawdogThis is a great book:
sawdogStephan's might be good too; haven't seen it21:44
joshzso there is no hope for me unless I buy the book?21:44
sawdogSure, there's hope.  You look at Benji's tutorial?21:45
joshzdoesnt work on latest build21:45
sawdogIt's pretty basic, but exposes a lot of the basics fairly quickly21:45
sawdogwell, shouldn't be too hard to figure out what's different; it's pretty trivial - no?21:46
joshzhow do I know whats different on the latest build?21:46
sawdogbut something should blow up, no?21:46
joshztrivial is an exteme understatement21:47
joshzbenji's code does not work, as a beginner thats all I know21:47
joshzhonestly im about to ditch zope3, I get the feeling most give up at this point21:47
srichterI am honestly surprised that most of the tutorials seem to be not working21:48
srichterdo you have output?21:48
sawdogWell, that might be the best thing; but it's not that bad  :)21:48
sawdogI'm glad I didn't give up21:49
srichterZCML reference: http://localhost:8080/++apidoc++21:49
joshzsawdog: I would like to keep going21:49
joshzi have nothing to work with though21:49
joshzsrichter: there is a problem with permissions or somehting21:49
joshzsomeone else verified it on this list21:49
sawdogDo you have a traceback in zope?21:50
joshznot currently,no21:50
joshzits not this specific thing, its just my general experiences21:51
joshzthere is no budget way to get up and running on z321:51
srichterno there is not21:51
srichterwe have identified this as a problem of Zope 321:51
sawdogso, it would help to focus and take things as they come.  If you have a specific problem, work through that.  Trying to take the whole thing and saying, "WHOA" gets you no where21:51
srichterwe scale down badly21:51
srichterthere are some ideas on how to attack the issue21:52
joshzsrichter: and I am an ex-z2 programmer21:52
srichterthe new Archetypes will support Zope 3 and some Web Development code is also forthcoming21:52
srichterAeh, I meant AGX21:53
srichterthe code generator21:53
joshzwhats AGX?  are we talking about z3 here?21:53
srichterAGX is currently a product for Zope 2/Plone to generate code from UML models21:54
joshzwell I am working on a startup business and we want to use zope21:54
srichterthe new version will support Zope 3 generation21:54
joshzwhat is the best way to get our app built using zope architecture?21:54
srichterjoshz: take a training session with me :-)21:54
joshzsrichter: its hard to justify that investment at the assessment stage21:54
sawdogI think the books are a good starting point also21:55
srichterI am really surprised you have all the trouble21:55
joshzi can't get anywhere with it21:55
srichterwe have not changed much in the basic architecture recently21:55
joshzevery sample I try does not work21:56
joshzsome work partially21:56
srichterOne way to approach the issue might be to take ZWiki or bugtracker and extract the info and try to build a custom type21:56
joshzthats the route I took21:56
srichterI mean creating a content component is a pretty standard thing to do21:56
joshzbut as soon as I try to change anything: BOOM21:57
srichterso what is the traceback?21:57
joshzi don't have it ready21:57
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joshzi can't rely on IRC for every problem though21:57
sawdogI found doing simple schema based content objects pretty trivial to get rolling21:57
srichterbut IRC can help you analyze the problems21:58
joshzwhat is your background though sawdog21:58
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srichteronce you know how to read tracebacks properly, you will be able to identify your problems yourself21:58
sawdogin a notshell, zope2/python programmer21:58
sawdoger, nutshell21:58
joshzsrichter: ok21:58
joshzso I click on 'Book' in te Z3 API doc and see Bforest API21:59
joshzwhat is that?21:59
joshzits very daunting21:59
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joshzthe orthoginality of zope is very low22:02
srichterthat's not really true22:02
srichterorthogonality is actually quiet high22:02
srichteri.e. a lot of peices of the framework work independently22:02
sawdogStephan, going tubing this summer?22:02
srichterhe he22:03
srichterweeeeellll, I am not sure! :-)22:03
sawdogOh yeah you are!22:03
* srichter suspects people wanted to kill me last year22:03
joshzso all you guys know each other?22:03
sawdognot really22:04
srichterwell, I have been around for a long time and have visited Zoep Corp. many times22:04
sawdogI know Stephan "The Tuber" a little, but most others, nope22:04
joshzi hope you don't take my comments as whining22:04
joshzbut if you want to get developers involved, its not very attractive22:04
srichterno, we take those complaints pretty serious22:05
srichterin fact, you might have noticed some heavy discussions on zope 3's mailing lists lately that relate to your concerns22:05
joshzreally its much easier to approach a framework like EJB22:05
srichterwe are trying to position ourselves better for incoming people22:05
joshzi can tell you if you don't zope will die22:06
joshzdjango just came out and it already has a larger user base22:06
srichtermaybe larger than Zope 3, but certainly not Zope in general22:07
srichteralso, the problem with new frameworks is that they have not been tested seriously22:07
joshzhave you made any measurements of zope user base?22:08
joshzRoR is definately not high quality22:08
srichterwell, I just think of Plone and I don't think that many projects get close to their size22:08
srichtermaybe PHP22:08
srichterI'll also note that django uses a bunch of Zope technologies (as I have heard)22:09
joshzreally?  what?22:09
joshzTAL is definately great22:09
whitthanks to stephan holek...22:10
joshzthere is no other project that puts the level of thought into it as Zope22:10
joshzthere is no other project that is harder to approach OTOH22:10
srichterwhit: huh?22:10
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whithe got zpt working with django22:10
srichterah, I see22:11
whitkapil got transactions working with django, but they weren't interested....22:11
srichterthere you go22:11
joshzits the integrated ODB that really makes zope stand out22:11
srichterthis is the reason django will never run a big environment :-)22:11
joshzare there any benchmark tests for ZODB?22:12
srichteryeah, the ZODB is nice, I would not want to miss it22:12
srichteranyways, SchoolTool is one of the large Zope 3 projects that you can also use to steal and look at code22:12
joshzive worked quite a bit with EJB and a few other, and the object-relational mapping business is crazy22:12
joshzi don't think I am lacking examples at this point22:12
joshzI need theory22:13
srichtermy book has some theory22:13
srichteryou might also want to read some component programming books22:13
srichterspecifically sections on adapters22:13
joshzis there any free materials?22:13
srichterfor theory, the Text files in zope.interface and zope.component are pretty good22:13
srichtermy book is available online, but it misses the editorial changes from the paper copy22:14
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srichterand sawdog has already pointed out the book int he APIDOCs which is pretty much a compilation of all the text files22:15
joshzsrichter: what is the URL?22:15
srichterstart up Zope 322:16
joshzi am there22:17
srichterthere is a book module22:17
joshzit starts with BForestAPI?22:17
srichterI think so22:17
joshzi hope you don't take offense, but that book is not easy to read22:18
srichterunfortunately not all packages have README text files yet, so not everything is covered22:18
srichterbut the newer packages are all there22:18
srichteryou have to take each chapter by itself22:18
srichterand it is not coherent of course22:18
srichterbut there should be chapters on the component architecture and interfaces and adapters22:19
srichterthey will make your head spin :-)22:19
srichterif you understand them well, you never write a software without components again :-)22:19
joshza brave new world22:20
srichterbtw, I remember feeling the same way when I learned the Mozilla Component Architecture a while back22:20
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joshzyikes that is harder to learn than zope22:20
srichterlearning the CA is the same mental jump as from structual to OO programming22:20
joshzwhere is the info for this?  in the book?22:21
srichterI think the change in development philosophy is the biggest hurdle for Zope 3, but everyone swears on it once they get it22:21
srichterI don;t know whether I mention it in the book, but it is a fact just by itself; there is not much more to say22:22
joshzI see in the 'Component Architecture' section22:22
joshzWell I like to compare Zope to EJB22:22
joshzive worked with EJB before22:22
joshzthey had a similar idea at the outset22:22
srichterright, I thought they did22:23
joshzthen everyone just jumped in and hooked it into their technology of choice( ie. the one that is all over their resume )22:23
joshzEJB became everything22:23
joshzits interesting how technologies evolve this way22:24
joshznobody wants to just use something for what it was designed for22:24
srichterIn "Component Architecture" read the Socket Example first22:25
joshzBTW- do Zope people do VOIP seminars?22:25
srichter"Global Component Architecture" is also fairly light reading22:25
srichterthey both accomplish about the same22:25
srichterno, not that I know of22:25
joshzhaving voice media is very effective for PR22:26
srichterwe just do not have the resources22:26
srichteronce you are done reading those two, go to  "Interfaces and Schemas"22:26
joshzdon't underestimate what those ruby videos did for RoR22:26
srichtersure, I don't doubt it22:27
joshzsrichter: VOIP is free( basically )22:27
srichterit does not change the fact that we do not have the resources22:27
srichterit's human resources, not material ones22:27
joshzhmm I wonder why RoR does?22:27
srichterthey did it as a hobby22:28
srichterZope is developed mostly by professional programmers as part of their job22:28
srichterthe Zoep community is somewhat atypical in that respect22:28
joshzthe feel is certainly very different22:28
joshzyou have to empower these third party developers22:29
joshzyou will see a great return on it22:29
joshzits the OSS philosophy22:29
srichterI agree22:29
srichterbut someone has to make time to do this sort of thing22:29
joshzsrichter: would you want to discuss some of these things, there may be some possibilities with the current company I am working with22:30
joshzdo you have skype?22:30
srichteryeah, but no headset at this point22:31
joshzits ok, whats your skypename?22:31
srichterbut I am in the US22:31
joshzskype is easier22:31
joshzmine: joshzeidner22:31
joshzif you don't use skype, you should its great22:32
srichterI dunno, but as I said, I have no headset ;-)22:32
joshzanyway, if you want to explore some options we can do that22:32
srichterwell, it costs me one cent per minute to call most of Europe22:32
srichterand 5 cents within th eUS22:32
srichterso I prefer that over skype22:32
joshzon a regular phone line?22:33
srichterjoshz: can we talk on the weekend, I am really busy this week; in fact I am prograstinating already by chatting ;-)22:33
joshzsrichter: ok, how do I contact you?22:33
joshzgot it, thanks22:34
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smjoshz: real-time seminars sounds interesting, but at this stage probably what we need is more recorded audio & video demos & tutorials22:39
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elroIs it possible to set simple attributes on a view with zcml? that would remove the need for the zodb for my usecase (an ldap browser)22:47
whitelro: you can extend zcml pretty easily22:49
whitbasically make a custom directive that lets you add the things you need22:49
elrowhit: do you know of any examples that do this?22:49
elroso I would make an ldapbrowser directive and have my settings as attributes on it22:50
whitdo you have one of the books?22:51
whityou have to create a meta directive to setup your directive22:52
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srichterif you can specify something using ZCML, then you can also specify it in Python22:52
elroyup, just found srichter's book online (philikon's is still sitting on my shelf, google doesnt seem to be able to find it there ;-_22:53
elroat the moment I just have a very simple content object for the configuration, but I think it would be better specified in zcml, then I need no zodb for this app22:54
srichterZCML cannot store configuration22:55
srichterwhy don't you store the settings in Python then?22:56
srichteror create a ldapbrowser directive that specifies all the settings22:56
srichterno need to override an existing directive22:56
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tiredbones has anybody gotten the messageboard, in chapter 13 of zope3book, working in the last couple of weeks?23:27
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jpfariashi everyone!23:32
jpfariascan someone help a guy from relational database world? ;-)23:33
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