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| joshz | newpers: i am not registerd cannot private message you back | 01:07 |
|---|---|---|
| joshz | send me your email | 01:07 |
| newpers | :) k | 01:07 |
| joshz | thansk | 01:07 |
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| eins | hi | 08:06 |
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| dobee | hi all, does anybody know if it is possible to create some kind of pythonpath overlay. in my concrete case i want to use the zope 3.2 release and then add zope.app.boston from the trunk to the path by putting it into my instance lib/python directory and without copying or linking it into the 3.2 library directory | 10:51 |
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| dobee | hi, does anybody know, why twisted is not defined in Zope.map http://svn.zope.org/Zope3/trunk/releases/Zope.map?rev=65897&view=auto | 15:28 |
| dobee | it is needed by zope.app.twisted | 15:28 |
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| dobee | i'd like to add this line to Zope.map: twisted ../src/twisted | 15:29 |
| srichter | mmh, you are right | 15:34 |
| srichter | I wonder how the TAR balls worked... | 15:34 |
| dobee | me too | 15:34 |
| srichter | because we made already a twisted-based release and twisted was included | 15:34 |
| srichter | jinty should know; he is the master of dependencies! :-) | 15:34 |
| srichter | jinty: ???? :-) | 15:34 |
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| dobee | srichter: just to make be sure - shouldn't zpkg -C releases/Zope.cfg always work? | 15:37 |
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| dobee | on a fresh trunk checkout | 15:37 |
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| dobee | jinty: do you know why twisted is not defined in Zope.map http://svn.zope.org/Zope3/trunk/releases/Zope.map?rev=65897&view=auto, it is used in zope.app.twisted | 15:42 |
| srichter | dobee: yes it should | 15:43 |
| dobee | ok, i'll add it then, thx | 15:44 |
| srichter | dobee: jinty runs tar ball creation scripts every night for SchoolTool, which includes Zope 3 trunk | 15:44 |
| srichter | which is the reason I am so surprised | 15:44 |
| dobee | srichter: do you use twisted or zserver | 15:44 |
| dobee | srichter: additionally there is some issue with the packages needed by TestBrowser ,which are excluded in the schooltool packages | 15:45 |
| dobee | srichter: btw: it just prints a line telling that twisted was ignored, the packaging works, the error occurs if you try to run an instance | 15:47 |
| srichter | dobee: ah, good point, we probably still use zserver | 15:47 |
| srichter | ok, cool | 15:47 |
| srichter | then it should definitely be added | 15:48 |
| dobee | ok | 15:48 |
| srichter | does it build now? | 15:53 |
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| jinty | srichter: My tarball runs currently fail for this reason: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope3-dev/2006-March/018709.html, I cannot figure neither head nor tail of it. | 16:03 |
| srichter | jinty: well you dobee's help now :-) | 16:05 |
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| dobee | srichter: yes it builds, i've already done it before i checked it in | 16:12 |
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| dobee | but only with the excludes as defined in schooltool | 16:12 |
| dobee | srichter: jinty this error occurs | 16:16 |
| dobee | 'ClientForm' is an invalid distribution component: all components must either be a Python package or provide a SETUP.cfg file | 16:16 |
| dobee | obviously there is no SETUP.cfg file in ClientForm because it is a file | 16:18 |
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| jinty | dobee: sorry, been afk a while. Your error is probably because you have an older version of zpkg. you need the latest trunk. | 17:36 |
| dobee | jinty: ah ok i'll try then | 17:36 |
| dobee | thx | 17:36 |
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| joshz | do any zope developers use Eric IDE? | 17:46 |
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| joshz | are there any zope3 tutorials that still work? | 20:17 |
| tristil | The worldcookery ones? | 20:24 |
| joshz | yeah the quickstart zope does not work | 20:25 |
| joshz | examples not working has been my biggest problem so far | 20:26 |
| joshz | its really taking up a lot of time | 20:26 |
| yota | not working with 3.2 release or trunk ? | 20:27 |
| joshz | latest release | 20:31 |
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| tristil | Which part? | 20:33 |
| joshz | tristil: which part of what? | 20:34 |
| tristil | the quickstart tutorial? | 20:34 |
| joshz | when I added the view part | 20:34 |
| tristil | What happened? | 20:35 |
| joshz | no permission to get attribute... | 20:35 |
| tristil | Yeah, I think I got that too :) | 20:35 |
| joshz | problem is I have no idea what that means | 20:35 |
| joshz | and furthermore no way to find out | 20:36 |
| tristil | You can do it in different places, I think, | 20:37 |
| tristil | But in the content declaration you do <require permission="zope.View" attributes="title" /> | 20:38 |
| joshz | why don't they update the doc | 20:38 |
| tristil | "They" is kind of a scattered community. I don't know why. | 20:39 |
| tristil | I'm a Plone person myself. | 20:39 |
| joshz | arrgh | 20:39 |
| tristil | They don't even have a website. | 20:39 |
| joshz | ultimately this effects the product itself, scares away potential users and developer | 20:40 |
| tristil | I agree. | 20:40 |
| tristil | It's crazy. | 20:40 |
| joshz | its a shame because the ideas that zope supports are good and useful | 20:41 |
| tristil | It makes nothing else they do matter, in the grand scheme of things. | 20:41 |
| joshz | very true | 20:41 |
| joshz | it certainly has the 'camping out' feel | 20:41 |
| tristil | You could use this: http://plone.org/documentation/tutorial/five-zope3-walkthrough | 20:42 |
| joshz | i wonder how it can be remedied | 20:42 |
| tristil | If you want to deal with Zope2. | 20:42 |
| joshz | i dont want to mess with the 5 project | 20:42 |
| tristil | But basically the deal is that you have to give permission to edit fields. | 20:43 |
| joshz | thanks that only took 3 hours | 20:43 |
| tristil | And I think you can either do it on the content type, or in the add and editforms. | 20:43 |
| joshz | how did you learn that | 20:44 |
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| tiredbones | joshz, have you looked at the online book, zope3book? | 20:45 |
| joshz | yeah those examples dont work either | 20:45 |
| joshz | the latest updates on the zope svn are totally different | 20:45 |
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| tiredbones | joshz, do you have Stepen or Philips book? | 20:47 |
| joshz | no do i have to buy it to get anywhere? | 20:48 |
| tiredbones | s/Stepen/Stephan/ | 20:48 |
| tiredbones | joshz, well the moer points of views you have the better your understanding will. At least fo me anyway. | 20:49 |
| sm | joshz: the test of stephan's is online I believe - start at the zope 3 wiki | 20:49 |
| sm | philips is usually recommended most for people starting out | 20:50 |
| sm | neither is completely up to date, otherwise both are good | 20:50 |
| sm | what about benji york's quickstart, have you found that one ? | 20:51 |
| tristil | Philip's book is very good. | 20:52 |
| joshz | we were just talking about how the quickstart doesn work | 20:53 |
| joshz | so in other words jsut hacking away at this is pointless | 20:53 |
| joshz | im thinking about just modifying buddylist to do what I want | 20:53 |
| tristil | That's probably the way to go. | 20:54 |
| tristil | The Schoolbell code is good code to look at for a larger example. | 20:54 |
| joshz | but anytime I change anything the whole thing breaks in a way I cannot fathom | 20:54 |
| joshz | its really crazy | 20:54 |
| joshz | zope is not user friendly under the ZMI | 20:55 |
| kamalgill | joshz: if you're considering attending a Zope 3 training course, we're offering early-bird pricing on our course until April 15 http://www.adaptivewave.com/training/training-sessions/zope-3-training | 20:56 |
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| joshz | kamalgill: you already tried pitching that to me... sorry | 20:56 |
| kamalgill | ah, ok. not sure if you saw the reduced pricing. | 20:57 |
| joshz | im in phoenix | 20:58 |
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| joshz | looks like a good course though | 21:00 |
| joshz | good luck | 21:00 |
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| sawdog | I'd go to that class Kamalgill, except for the instructor :) | 21:36 |
| kamalgill | sawdog: sorry? not sure what you mean | 21:37 |
| sawdog | I'd go if it weren't for the instructor | 21:38 |
| kamalgill | ouch | 21:39 |
| sawdog | heh | 21:39 |
| joshz | isnt it S Richter? | 21:41 |
| sawdog | Yeah | 21:42 |
| sawdog | I was kidding | 21:42 |
| joshz | oh... | 21:42 |
| sawdog | Stephan is ok | 21:42 |
| joshz | i have to say that the lack of support here is ridiculous | 21:42 |
| sawdog | where you at? | 21:42 |
| joshz | im going through the buddy list code | 21:42 |
| joshz | half the stuff here I cant make heads or tails of | 21:42 |
| sawdog | no idea what you're talking about. :) | 21:43 |
| joshz | AddForm, etc. where do you learn what this stuff means? | 21:43 |
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| sawdog | Ah, you reading zcml or something? | 21:43 |
| joshz | I have no idea how the zcml works | 21:43 |
| joshz | yeah | 21:43 |
| joshz | where are the docs on zcml? | 21:43 |
| joshz | furthermore these python interfaces are very cumbersome | 21:44 |
| sawdog | This is a great book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/3540223592/102-2584281-4885747?v=glance&n=283155 | 21:44 |
| sawdog | Stephan's might be good too; haven't seen it | 21:44 |
| joshz | so there is no hope for me unless I buy the book? | 21:44 |
| sawdog | Sure, there's hope. You look at Benji's tutorial? | 21:45 |
| joshz | doesnt work on latest build | 21:45 |
| sawdog | It's pretty basic, but exposes a lot of the basics fairly quickly | 21:45 |
| sawdog | well, shouldn't be too hard to figure out what's different; it's pretty trivial - no? | 21:46 |
| joshz | how do I know whats different on the latest build? | 21:46 |
| sawdog | but something should blow up, no? | 21:46 |
| joshz | trivial is an exteme understatement | 21:47 |
| joshz | benji's code does not work, as a beginner thats all I know | 21:47 |
| joshz | honestly im about to ditch zope3, I get the feeling most give up at this point | 21:47 |
| srichter | I am honestly surprised that most of the tutorials seem to be not working | 21:48 |
| srichter | do you have output? | 21:48 |
| sawdog | Well, that might be the best thing; but it's not that bad :) | 21:48 |
| sawdog | I'm glad I didn't give up | 21:49 |
| srichter | ZCML reference: http://localhost:8080/++apidoc++ | 21:49 |
| joshz | sawdog: I would like to keep going | 21:49 |
| joshz | i have nothing to work with though | 21:49 |
| joshz | srichter: there is a problem with permissions or somehting | 21:49 |
| joshz | someone else verified it on this list | 21:49 |
| sawdog | Do you have a traceback in zope? | 21:50 |
| joshz | not currently,no | 21:50 |
| joshz | its not this specific thing, its just my general experiences | 21:51 |
| joshz | there is no budget way to get up and running on z3 | 21:51 |
| srichter | no there is not | 21:51 |
| srichter | we have identified this as a problem of Zope 3 | 21:51 |
| sawdog | so, it would help to focus and take things as they come. If you have a specific problem, work through that. Trying to take the whole thing and saying, "WHOA" gets you no where | 21:51 |
| srichter | we scale down badly | 21:51 |
| srichter | there are some ideas on how to attack the issue | 21:52 |
| joshz | srichter: and I am an ex-z2 programmer | 21:52 |
| srichter | the new Archetypes will support Zope 3 and some Web Development code is also forthcoming | 21:52 |
| joshz | Archtypes? | 21:53 |
| srichter | Aeh, I meant AGX | 21:53 |
| srichter | the code generator | 21:53 |
| srichter | sorry | 21:53 |
| joshz | whats AGX? are we talking about z3 here? | 21:53 |
| srichter | AGX is currently a product for Zope 2/Plone to generate code from UML models | 21:54 |
| joshz | well I am working on a startup business and we want to use zope | 21:54 |
| srichter | the new version will support Zope 3 generation | 21:54 |
| joshz | what is the best way to get our app built using zope architecture? | 21:54 |
| srichter | joshz: take a training session with me :-) | 21:54 |
| joshz | srichter: its hard to justify that investment at the assessment stage | 21:54 |
| sawdog | I think the books are a good starting point also | 21:55 |
| srichter | I am really surprised you have all the trouble | 21:55 |
| joshz | i can't get anywhere with it | 21:55 |
| srichter | we have not changed much in the basic architecture recently | 21:55 |
| joshz | every sample I try does not work | 21:56 |
| joshz | some work partially | 21:56 |
| srichter | One way to approach the issue might be to take ZWiki or bugtracker and extract the info and try to build a custom type | 21:56 |
| joshz | thats the route I took | 21:56 |
| srichter | I mean creating a content component is a pretty standard thing to do | 21:56 |
| joshz | but as soon as I try to change anything: BOOM | 21:57 |
| srichter | so what is the traceback? | 21:57 |
| joshz | i don't have it ready | 21:57 |
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| joshz | i can't rely on IRC for every problem though | 21:57 |
| sawdog | I found doing simple schema based content objects pretty trivial to get rolling | 21:57 |
| srichter | but IRC can help you analyze the problems | 21:58 |
| joshz | what is your background though sawdog | 21:58 |
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| srichter | once you know how to read tracebacks properly, you will be able to identify your problems yourself | 21:58 |
| sawdog | in a notshell, zope2/python programmer | 21:58 |
| sawdog | er, nutshell | 21:58 |
| joshz | srichter: ok | 21:58 |
| joshz | so I click on 'Book' in te Z3 API doc and see Bforest API | 21:59 |
| joshz | what is that? | 21:59 |
| joshz | its very daunting | 21:59 |
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| joshz | the orthoginality of zope is very low | 22:02 |
| srichter | that's not really true | 22:02 |
| srichter | orthogonality is actually quiet high | 22:02 |
| srichter | i.e. a lot of peices of the framework work independently | 22:02 |
| sawdog | Stephan, going tubing this summer? | 22:02 |
| srichter | he he | 22:03 |
| sawdog | :) | 22:03 |
| srichter | weeeeellll, I am not sure! :-) | 22:03 |
| sawdog | Oh yeah you are! | 22:03 |
| * srichter suspects people wanted to kill me last year | 22:03 | |
| srichter | LOL | 22:03 |
| joshz | so all you guys know each other? | 22:03 |
| sawdog | not really | 22:04 |
| srichter | well, I have been around for a long time and have visited Zoep Corp. many times | 22:04 |
| sawdog | I know Stephan "The Tuber" a little, but most others, nope | 22:04 |
| joshz | i hope you don't take my comments as whining | 22:04 |
| sawdog | frustration | 22:04 |
| joshz | but if you want to get developers involved, its not very attractive | 22:04 |
| srichter | no, we take those complaints pretty serious | 22:05 |
| srichter | in fact, you might have noticed some heavy discussions on zope 3's mailing lists lately that relate to your concerns | 22:05 |
| joshz | really its much easier to approach a framework like EJB | 22:05 |
| srichter | we are trying to position ourselves better for incoming people | 22:05 |
| joshz | i can tell you if you don't zope will die | 22:06 |
| joshz | django just came out and it already has a larger user base | 22:06 |
| srichter | maybe larger than Zope 3, but certainly not Zope in general | 22:07 |
| srichter | also, the problem with new frameworks is that they have not been tested seriously | 22:07 |
| joshz | have you made any measurements of zope user base? | 22:08 |
| joshz | RoR is definately not high quality | 22:08 |
| srichter | well, I just think of Plone and I don't think that many projects get close to their size | 22:08 |
| srichter | maybe PHP | 22:08 |
| srichter | I'll also note that django uses a bunch of Zope technologies (as I have heard) | 22:09 |
| joshz | really? what? | 22:09 |
| srichter | TAL | 22:09 |
| joshz | TAL is definately great | 22:09 |
| whit | thanks to stephan holek... | 22:10 |
| joshz | there is no other project that puts the level of thought into it as Zope | 22:10 |
| joshz | there is no other project that is harder to approach OTOH | 22:10 |
| srichter | whit: huh? | 22:10 |
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| whit | he got zpt working with django | 22:10 |
| srichter | ah, I see | 22:11 |
| whit | kapil got transactions working with django, but they weren't interested.... | 22:11 |
| srichter | there you go | 22:11 |
| joshz | its the integrated ODB that really makes zope stand out | 22:11 |
| srichter | this is the reason django will never run a big environment :-) | 22:11 |
| joshz | are there any benchmark tests for ZODB? | 22:12 |
| srichter | yeah, the ZODB is nice, I would not want to miss it | 22:12 |
| srichter | anyways, SchoolTool is one of the large Zope 3 projects that you can also use to steal and look at code | 22:12 |
| joshz | ive worked quite a bit with EJB and a few other, and the object-relational mapping business is crazy | 22:12 |
| joshz | i don't think I am lacking examples at this point | 22:12 |
| joshz | I need theory | 22:13 |
| srichter | my book has some theory | 22:13 |
| srichter | you might also want to read some component programming books | 22:13 |
| srichter | specifically sections on adapters | 22:13 |
| joshz | is there any free materials? | 22:13 |
| srichter | for theory, the Text files in zope.interface and zope.component are pretty good | 22:13 |
| srichter | my book is available online, but it misses the editorial changes from the paper copy | 22:14 |
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| srichter | and sawdog has already pointed out the book int he APIDOCs which is pretty much a compilation of all the text files | 22:15 |
| joshz | srichter: what is the URL? | 22:15 |
| srichter | start up Zope 3 | 22:16 |
| srichter | http://localhost:8080/++apidoc++ | 22:17 |
| joshz | i am there | 22:17 |
| srichter | there is a book module | 22:17 |
| joshz | it starts with BForestAPI? | 22:17 |
| srichter | I think so | 22:17 |
| joshz | i hope you don't take offense, but that book is not easy to read | 22:18 |
| srichter | unfortunately not all packages have README text files yet, so not everything is covered | 22:18 |
| srichter | but the newer packages are all there | 22:18 |
| srichter | you have to take each chapter by itself | 22:18 |
| srichter | and it is not coherent of course | 22:18 |
| srichter | but there should be chapters on the component architecture and interfaces and adapters | 22:19 |
| srichter | they will make your head spin :-) | 22:19 |
| srichter | if you understand them well, you never write a software without components again :-) | 22:19 |
| joshz | a brave new world | 22:20 |
| joshz | :) | 22:20 |
| srichter | btw, I remember feeling the same way when I learned the Mozilla Component Architecture a while back | 22:20 |
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| joshz | yikes that is harder to learn than zope | 22:20 |
| srichter | learning the CA is the same mental jump as from structual to OO programming | 22:20 |
| joshz | where is the info for this? in the book? | 22:21 |
| srichter | I think the change in development philosophy is the biggest hurdle for Zope 3, but everyone swears on it once they get it | 22:21 |
| srichter | I don;t know whether I mention it in the book, but it is a fact just by itself; there is not much more to say | 22:22 |
| joshz | I see in the 'Component Architecture' section | 22:22 |
| joshz | Well I like to compare Zope to EJB | 22:22 |
| joshz | ive worked with EJB before | 22:22 |
| joshz | they had a similar idea at the outset | 22:22 |
| srichter | right, I thought they did | 22:23 |
| joshz | then everyone just jumped in and hooked it into their technology of choice( ie. the one that is all over their resume ) | 22:23 |
| joshz | EJB became everything | 22:23 |
| joshz | its interesting how technologies evolve this way | 22:24 |
| joshz | nobody wants to just use something for what it was designed for | 22:24 |
| srichter | In "Component Architecture" read the Socket Example first | 22:25 |
| joshz | BTW- do Zope people do VOIP seminars? | 22:25 |
| srichter | "Global Component Architecture" is also fairly light reading | 22:25 |
| srichter | they both accomplish about the same | 22:25 |
| srichter | no, not that I know of | 22:25 |
| joshz | having voice media is very effective for PR | 22:26 |
| srichter | we just do not have the resources | 22:26 |
| srichter | once you are done reading those two, go to "Interfaces and Schemas" | 22:26 |
| joshz | don't underestimate what those ruby videos did for RoR | 22:26 |
| srichter | sure, I don't doubt it | 22:27 |
| joshz | srichter: VOIP is free( basically ) | 22:27 |
| srichter | it does not change the fact that we do not have the resources | 22:27 |
| srichter | it's human resources, not material ones | 22:27 |
| joshz | hmm I wonder why RoR does? | 22:27 |
| srichter | they did it as a hobby | 22:28 |
| srichter | Zope is developed mostly by professional programmers as part of their job | 22:28 |
| srichter | the Zoep community is somewhat atypical in that respect | 22:28 |
| joshz | the feel is certainly very different | 22:28 |
| joshz | you have to empower these third party developers | 22:29 |
| joshz | you will see a great return on it | 22:29 |
| joshz | its the OSS philosophy | 22:29 |
| srichter | I agree | 22:29 |
| srichter | but someone has to make time to do this sort of thing | 22:29 |
| joshz | srichter: would you want to discuss some of these things, there may be some possibilities with the current company I am working with | 22:30 |
| srichter | interesting | 22:30 |
| joshz | do you have skype? | 22:30 |
| srichter | yeah, but no headset at this point | 22:31 |
| joshz | its ok, whats your skypename? | 22:31 |
| srichter | but I am in the US | 22:31 |
| joshz | skype is easier | 22:31 |
| joshz | mine: joshzeidner | 22:31 |
| joshz | if you don't use skype, you should its great | 22:32 |
| srichter | I dunno, but as I said, I have no headset ;-) | 22:32 |
| joshz | anyway, if you want to explore some options we can do that | 22:32 |
| srichter | well, it costs me one cent per minute to call most of Europe | 22:32 |
| srichter | and 5 cents within th eUS | 22:32 |
| srichter | so I prefer that over skype | 22:32 |
| joshz | on a regular phone line? | 22:33 |
| srichter | joshz: can we talk on the weekend, I am really busy this week; in fact I am prograstinating already by chatting ;-) | 22:33 |
| srichter | yeah | 22:33 |
| joshz | srichter: ok, how do I contact you? | 22:33 |
| joshz | got it, thanks | 22:34 |
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| sm | joshz: real-time seminars sounds interesting, but at this stage probably what we need is more recorded audio & video demos & tutorials | 22:39 |
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| elro | Is it possible to set simple attributes on a view with zcml? that would remove the need for the zodb for my usecase (an ldap browser) | 22:47 |
| whit | elro: you can extend zcml pretty easily | 22:49 |
| whit | basically make a custom directive that lets you add the things you need | 22:49 |
| elro | whit: do you know of any examples that do this? | 22:49 |
| elro | so I would make an ldapbrowser directive and have my settings as attributes on it | 22:50 |
| whit | do you have one of the books? | 22:51 |
| whit | you have to create a meta directive to setup your directive | 22:52 |
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| srichter | if you can specify something using ZCML, then you can also specify it in Python | 22:52 |
| elro | yup, just found srichter's book online (philikon's is still sitting on my shelf, google doesnt seem to be able to find it there ;-_ | 22:53 |
| elro | at the moment I just have a very simple content object for the configuration, but I think it would be better specified in zcml, then I need no zodb for this app | 22:54 |
| srichter | ZCML cannot store configuration | 22:55 |
| srichter | why don't you store the settings in Python then? | 22:56 |
| srichter | or create a ldapbrowser directive that specifies all the settings | 22:56 |
| srichter | no need to override an existing directive | 22:56 |
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| tiredbones | has anybody gotten the messageboard, in chapter 13 of zope3book, working in the last couple of weeks? | 23:27 |
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| jpfarias | hi everyone! | 23:32 |
| jpfarias | can someone help a guy from relational database world? ;-) | 23:33 |
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