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| eins | hi | 08:04 |
|---|---|---|
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| romanofski | moin | 09:36 |
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| regebro | Hiya! | 11:31 |
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| regebro | We are looking at refactoringthe traversal in Zope2. It's the wrong forum, I know, but the real gurus are here. :) | 11:31 |
| regebro | We're trying to replace the in-traversal roles check, with some post-traversal roles check. | 11:32 |
| regebro | Anybody have and ideas? | 11:32 |
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| regebro | Whoah. Zope3 traversal is a mess.... | 12:01 |
| regebro | Remind me again, when exactly is object security checked? | 12:01 |
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| regebro | OK, Zope3 wraps everything in security proxies, which will make security checks when you access it. | 12:23 |
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| regebro | Why is there ITraverser, ITravesable and IPublishTraverse? When should each one be used? | 12:36 |
| regebro | Is anybody awake? :) | 12:37 |
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| regebro | Question for gurus, like mexiKON and J1m (who is probably not at his computer at this early hour): | 12:49 |
| regebro | Zope3 does security check via security proxies. | 12:49 |
| regebro | Zope2 during traversal. | 12:49 |
| regebro | Do you forsee any direct problems in contining to do the security check during traversal in Zope2, even if we switch to a more Zope3-like traversal? | 12:50 |
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| regebro | Anybody good at twisted? Anybody have an idea why Sidneis use of Twisted (in Zope2) refuses to exit on control-C? | 13:43 |
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| rockyburt | um, should zope3.2.1 really complain when i build it that i'm using python2.4.3 and not 2.4.2 ? | 14:31 |
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| regebro | rockyburt: I think so. | 14:50 |
| regebro | 244 is later that 321. | 14:51 |
| regebro | Rught? | 14:51 |
| rockyburt | 243 you mean | 14:51 |
| rockyburt | and i dunno | 14:51 |
| rockyburt | i thought z321 was pretty recent | 14:51 |
| regebro | Well, isn't 243 pretty recent too? | 14:51 |
| regebro | Ubuntu is still on 242... | 14:51 |
| rockyburt | yeah ... i'm runnin ubuntu dapper drake ;) | 14:52 |
| rockyburt | has p243 | 14:52 |
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| efge | hi | 16:20 |
| efge | I want to create a schema programatically | 16:20 |
| efge | is there a better way than doing: | 16:20 |
| efge | IFoo = InterfaceClass('IFoo', (zope.interface.Interface,), {}, __module__='something') | 16:21 |
| efge | then to add fields | 16:22 |
| efge | ifoo._InterfaceClass__attrs['bar'] = somefield | 16:22 |
| efge | ? | 16:22 |
| efge | adding fields that way looks quite dirty to me :) | 16:22 |
| philiKON | why do you want to add fields *after* the interface has been created? | 16:24 |
| efge | yes | 16:25 |
| efge | because it's created empty | 16:25 |
| efge | I'm converting from external schemas stored in text files | 16:25 |
| philiKON | but you can pass a number of attrs to the constructor | 16:25 |
| efge | hm.... right... | 16:25 |
| efge | you're right, stupid me | 16:25 |
| philiKON | InterfaceClass('IFoo', (Interface,), {'foo': 'bar'}, ....) | 16:25 |
| philiKON | basically, insert stuff where you have the empty dict ;) | 16:26 |
| efge | thx :) | 16:26 |
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| efge | philiKON: how about if I want to add a field that's ObjectList(schema=IFoo), where there's a self-reference... | 17:08 |
| philiKON | that's tricky | 17:08 |
| efge | how do normal interfaces defined in code deal with that? | 17:09 |
| philiKON | i was just gonna ask that | 17:09 |
| philiKON | ;) | 17:09 |
| efge | from what I read in the code, you can't use dotted names here for the schema | 17:09 |
| philiKON | nope | 17:09 |
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| efge | in zope.schema, default values for fields are supposed to be there so that "Default field values are assigned to objects when they are first created" (from the README), but nothing in zope.schema actually creates objects or uses the default, right? | 18:24 |
| efge | where would be the main use of that field default then? | 18:24 |
| philiKON | well, there *is* FieldProperty | 18:25 |
| philiKON | i'm also not sure whether the form machinery perhaps uses the default property | 18:26 |
| efge | ah yeah I hadn't grepped for getattr(field, 'default' :) | 18:26 |
| philiKON | waaaah | 18:27 |
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| j1m | It would be great to get volunteers to work on deprecation wanings on the jim-adapter branch. :) | 18:36 |
| rockyburt | anyone have any pointers on docs for getting started with formlib and wfmc ? | 18:37 |
| ignas | yeah, like an example of "how to properly do multi participant workflows" with zope3 ... | 18:40 |
| philiKON | j1m, you got rid of a great deal already i saw | 18:41 |
| j1m | yup | 18:42 |
| j1m | I also created more. :) | 18:42 |
| philiKON | j1m, how can we help with the "Local registration is now much simpler. The old baroque APIs will go away in Zope 3.5. See the new component-registration APIs defined in zope.component, especially IComponentRegistry." messages? | 18:42 |
| philiKON | I have no idea what the baroque API was and how to deal with it in terms of the new API | 18:42 |
| j1m | hm, ok, then skip those. :) | 18:43 |
| philiKON | those are, like, all of them ;) | 18:43 |
| j1m | No they aren't. | 18:43 |
| j1m | For example, all of the places that use ILocalUtility can simply stop using it. | 18:43 |
| philiKON | ah, ok | 18:44 |
| j1m | Ditto for IRegisterable. | 18:44 |
| philiKON | yup. which reminds me. i can now also deprecate <localUtility /> in case you havent' done it yet | 18:44 |
| j1m | These were burnt offerings that aren't needed anymore. | 18:44 |
| j1m | No, I think that still provides a useful function, but I'm not sure. | 18:44 |
| philiKON | it doesn't | 18:44 |
| j1m | I could be wrong | 18:44 |
| philiKON | it just put ILocalUtility on the class | 18:45 |
| philiKON | and IAttributeAnnotatable | 18:45 |
| philiKON | other than that it was just like <class /> | 18:45 |
| j1m | k | 18:45 |
| j1m | One open issue is that I think we will want to arrange that some things can only be added to site-management folders or the site manager. | 18:45 |
| j1m | I'm not really sure how to do that though. | 18:46 |
| j1m | I'd like to be able to make a gesture of some sort in zcml. | 18:46 |
| j1m | This gets to the whole open containment constraints issue. | 18:46 |
| j1m | Especially in cases where the constraint is for reasons of policy. | 18:47 |
| j1m | BTW, you can now add components directly to the site manager. | 18:47 |
| philiKON | good | 18:47 |
| j1m | You no longer *need* to use a site-management folder | 18:47 |
| philiKON | haven't looked at the UI yet | 18:47 |
| j1m | I think people will find this simpler. | 18:47 |
| philiKON | i will :) | 18:48 |
| philiKON | i've resumed work on the book | 18:48 |
| philiKON | i'm basing what i write on the jim-adapter branch for now :) | 18:48 |
| j1m | Oh, there are lots of places, I think that import PlacefullSetup from the wrong place. | 18:48 |
| j1m | cool | 18:48 |
| j1m | This now generates deprecation warnings. | 18:49 |
| j1m | It should have before but didn't. | 18:49 |
| j1m | Also, OT, take a look at zope.component.__init__. | 18:49 |
| philiKON | already have | 18:49 |
| philiKON | looks good | 18:49 |
| j1m | Eventually, I want to do this with lots of __init__ modules. | 18:49 |
| efge | j1m: how would you define a schema IFoo where a field of type ObjectList has to refer to IFoo ? | 18:50 |
| philiKON | except that i'm not TOO fond of underscored modules, it looks very good | 18:50 |
| j1m | I had to do this to avoid a circular import problem. | 18:50 |
| philiKON | yes, i've had to use zope.deferredimport once too to avoid circular import problems | 18:50 |
| j1m | efge, not sure. | 18:50 |
| philiKON | j1m, any particular reason it's _api.py and _declaration.py instead of api.py and declaration.py? | 18:51 |
| j1m | I guess I would mutate the field after IFoo is created, which is icky. | 18:51 |
| efge | yep that's what I did | 18:51 |
| efge | but it is icky indeed | 18:51 |
| j1m | philiKON, I wanted them to be private. | 18:51 |
| philiKON | uh huh | 18:51 |
| j1m | gotta go, bbl | 18:51 |
| philiKON | see ya | 18:51 |
| efge | actually I did ickier, I did fields = {} and passed that to InterfaceClass, then added my fields in that dict... | 18:52 |
| philiKON | i'm surprised that works | 18:53 |
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| efge | yeah it does self.__attrs = attrs directly, I was surprised too | 19:01 |
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| j1m | back | 19:32 |
| j1m | If anyone has questions about how to get rid of deprecations, let me know, :) | 19:32 |
| j1m | Otherwise, I have to work on something else. | 19:32 |
| regebro | Ah, damn! | 19:32 |
| regebro | OK, I guess I can discuss traversal by email, j1m . :) | 19:33 |
| j1m | regebro, do you have a quick question? | 19:33 |
| regebro | No, it's likely to be complicated. | 19:33 |
| j1m | k | 19:33 |
| regebro | Like the differences between ITraversal, IPublisherTraver and ITRaversable. | 19:34 |
| regebro | And why there is so much code duplication in traversing. | 19:34 |
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| * whit snorts | 19:37 | |
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| regebro | snorts what? | 19:39 |
| whit | regebro: form of laughter | 19:41 |
| philiKON | regebro, perhaps i can help | 19:43 |
| philiKON | the difference between ITraverser, ITraversable and IPublishTraverse? | 19:44 |
| regebro | Most likely. :) | 19:45 |
| philiKON | ok | 19:45 |
| philiKON | first, you need to understand that there's a difference between object-graph traversal and publication traversal | 19:45 |
| regebro | ITraverser and ITraversable, I kinda get. | 19:45 |
| philiKON | for example, take a URL | 19:45 |
| philiKON | http://.../foo/bar/@@blerg | 19:45 |
| philiKON | /foo/bar/@@blerg should be resolved according to publication traversal | 19:45 |
| philiKON | because we're publishing | 19:45 |
| regebro | right. | 19:46 |
| philiKON | this is what IPublishTraverse is about | 19:46 |
| philiKON | now, there's also object-graph traversal | 19:46 |
| philiKON | for example, in a zpt | 19:46 |
| philiKON | context/some_attr/foobar | 19:46 |
| philiKON | this is dealt with by ITraversable/ITraverser | 19:46 |
| regebro | OK. | 19:46 |
| philiKON | ITraverser is the one chunking a path into pieces and then calling ITraversable one by one | 19:46 |
| regebro | Yeah, I got that. | 19:47 |
| philiKON | basically, ITraverser is the "publisher" in object-graph traversal | 19:47 |
| philiKON | ok | 19:47 |
| philiKON | now, zope 2 doesn't make that distinction | 19:47 |
| philiKON | and somebody thought it'd be fitting to use ITraverser/ITraversable back then | 19:47 |
| philiKON | i'm not 100% sure that was the right chioce | 19:47 |
| philiKON | fortunately, we could switch five to IPublishTraverse easily if we wante dto | 19:48 |
| regebro | Well, one interesting issue then, is that the publishing traversal has no ITraversable | 19:48 |
| philiKON | huh? | 19:48 |
| regebro | But, I guess, since it always starts with the root, it doesn't need one... | 19:49 |
| philiKON | IPublishTraverse is the traversable adapter for publication traversal | 19:49 |
| philiKON | and the "ITraverser" part in publication traversal is the publication's job | 19:49 |
| regebro | Oh, sorry, I mistyped, I mean it has no "ITraverse" | 19:49 |
| philiKON | chunking the path into pieces | 19:49 |
| philiKON | et c. | 19:49 |
| regebro | OK. | 19:49 |
| philiKON | yeah, that's what the publication does | 19:49 |
| philiKON | it also calls IPublishTraverse adapters | 19:50 |
| philiKON | the whole nomenclature is crappy | 19:50 |
| philiKON | blame SteveA :) | 19:50 |
| regebro | Yeah, so Fives usage if ITraverse/ITraversal is completely wrong. | 19:50 |
| SteveA | philiKON: that I didn't push through IPathTraverser and IURLTraverser ? | 19:50 |
| regebro | Yeah, IPublishTraverse should be called IPublishTraversable. | 19:50 |
| SteveA | and IPathStepTraverser | 19:51 |
| philiKON | SteveA, yeah :) | 19:51 |
| regebro | And it would make sense to me to by default let either the publish traversal user the pbject traversal (or possibly the oterh way around). | 19:51 |
| philiKON | it's not too late ... :) | 19:51 |
| SteveA | i should take a vacation to work on zope3 :-/ | 19:51 |
| regebro | No, so that's what I'm thinking here... | 19:52 |
| philiKON | SteveA, a "zabattical"' :) | 19:52 |
| philiKON | regebro, if you want to switch five over to IPublishTraverse, i think that'd have some advantages. you could bring it up on the five list. it won't get rid of the "problem" that zope 2 still mixes URL and Path traversal | 19:53 |
| philiKON | solving this problem isn't a high priority on my list and i could imagine that you also have better things to do ;) | 19:53 |
| regebro | 1. The publisher should really use ITraverser. If not, you need to let the publisher duplicate ITraversers code (it pretty much does). | 19:54 |
| regebro | (philiKON: Actually, it means if you make traversing adapters for Five objects, those are not useable for Zope3). | 19:55 |
| regebro | So I'm not sure I have better things to do. ;) | 19:55 |
| philiKON | you do realize that you're working on zope 5 there, aren't you? :) | 19:55 |
| regebro | 2. IPublishTraverse should default to using ITraversable. Because otherwise, these needs to duplicate code. Whic pretty much is what they do today. | 19:56 |
| regebro | philiKON: Yup. Although I call it zope.Zope2. :) | 19:56 |
| philiKON | haha | 19:56 |
| philiKON | Zope2 will probably remain the other zope namespace package out there | 19:56 |
| philiKON | that aside | 19:57 |
| regebro | Yup. | 19:57 |
| philiKON | i think the ZPublisher should use IPublishTraverse, not Itraverser | 19:57 |
| philiKON | the publisher shouldn't know anything about path traversing | 19:57 |
| philiKON | it should just worry about URL traversing | 19:58 |
| philiKON | i've also come to think that IPublishTraverse adapters are a better replacement for __bobo_traverse__ | 19:58 |
| philiKON | at least last time i investigated that whole subject | 19:58 |
| regebro | Yes, but in 99% of cases these are exactly the same. | 19:58 |
| philiKON | right | 19:58 |
| philiKON | so, perhpas, the default IPublishtraverse could use ITraversable | 19:59 |
| regebro | YEah, exactly. | 19:59 |
| philiKON | that i don't really care about | 19:59 |
| regebro | and the publisher should probably use ITraverse. | 19:59 |
| philiKON | huh, why?!? | 19:59 |
| philiKON | i just said it should use IPublishTraverse | 19:59 |
| philiKON | the publisher doesn't need to care about path traversal. it cares about url traversal | 20:00 |
| regebro | Same reason. The publishers code that splits the path into bits and traverses it its almost exactly the same as IDefaultTraversable. | 20:00 |
| regebro | It's completely pointless code duplication. | 20:00 |
| regebro | That'a minor issue, because at least it doesn't affect people making new ITraverse adapters, because nobody does. :) | 20:01 |
| philiKON | you keep quoting weird names | 20:01 |
| philiKON | please stick to the names of the interfaces | 20:01 |
| philiKON | you're confusing me :) | 20:01 |
| philiKON | there's ITraverser and ITraversable | 20:01 |
| philiKON | and IPublishTraverse | 20:02 |
| regebro | I mean ITraverser. | 20:02 |
| philiKON | now, i don't care about reducing code duplication right now | 20:02 |
| regebro | These names are confusing me, which is why I get them wrong all teh time. | 20:02 |
| philiKON | let's worry about that at a later stage | 20:02 |
| philiKON | yes, but let's concentrate for now | 20:02 |
| philiKON | you want to get somewhere, so let's not try to think about how to reduce code duplication in zope 3 at the moment | 20:02 |
| philiKON | fact is: | 20:02 |
| philiKON | the zope 3 publisher uses IPublicationTraverse | 20:03 |
| philiKON | the zope 2 zpublisher should do so as well, probably | 20:03 |
| regebro | OK. | 20:03 |
| philiKON | what the default IPublicationTraverse implementation does, doesn't matter for now | 20:03 |
| philiKON | in zope 3 it *might* use ITraversable | 20:03 |
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| philiKON | in zope 2 it might do something else | 20:03 |
| regebro | Yeah, right, we can start there. | 20:03 |
| philiKON | to emulate old zop e2 traversal behaviour | 20:03 |
| philiKON | either way, <five:traversable /> and the __bobo_traverse__ monkey patching can go :) | 20:04 |
| regebro | If we start there, I think there is only one actual issue now. | 20:04 |
| regebro | Yup. | 20:04 |
| regebro | The Zope2 traversings role checking differs when the attribute is gotten via __getitem__ or if it is gotten via gettattr and bobotraverse. | 20:05 |
| philiKON | waaaaaaaaaaaaa | 20:05 |
| regebro | That will be VERY hard to get right with any sort of adaters.... | 20:06 |
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| regebro | Well, OK, I might have time for that thursday again. See ya then. | 20:13 |
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| philiKON | bye | 20:13 |
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