IRC log of #zope3-dev for Friday, 2006-06-16

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baijumgood morning!06:04
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Theunidoes anybody know how i can create a zope3 release out of a checkout?06:05
Theunihmm. looks like i found it06:08
Theuniexcept that it doesn't work for the current zope 3.3 branch06:13
Theunisomething complaining about ClientCookie not beeing a module06:13
baijumTheuni, are you following ?06:14
Theunino, didn't find that ... sorry06:15
* Theuni tries again06:16
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TheuniDoesn't work either06:23
Theunistill complains about clientcookie06:23
Theunihmm. maybe a zpkg fault ... /me tries the trunk06:25
Theuninow ..06:28
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baijumWhat is the status of this bug ?06:48
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baijumThere was a note about it here : zope/app/catalog/browser/advanced.pt06:49
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einshi all08:05
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einsbrupp simply put init-connect    = "SET NAMES utf8" to my.cnf10:47
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baijumI think this is typo, is it?
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ChrisWis there a channel for Five?12:00
ChrisWfailing that, there a complete zcml reference online anywhere?12:05
baijumShould we give empty Unicode string as default values for methods in, for eg:- def getValue(name=u""):12:22
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baijumif yes, many in Zope3 source are not Unicode string, try: $ find . -name | xargs grep -n "def\ .*(.*=['\"]"12:25
einsyeah, and concating unicode strings and non unicode strings leads to errors, many of them are in sqlscript :(12:40
einson every zope3 release I have to patch zope to make sqlscript work normally12:41
ChrisWwhy not just feed those patches back into the releases then>12:41
einssome of them are just workarounds, and because of lack of time I can't produce real patches12:42
einsthere are tons of problems with sqlscript12:43
einssomeday I will write everything down and send to someone12:43
ChrisWin zcml, how do I specify that a class implements a particular interface?12:44
einswhy do you need that in ZCML?12:45
ChrisWso that I don't have to go and patch a third party module12:46
ChrisWthis is what zcml was invented for, remember? ;-)12:46
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J1msrichter, ayt?14:23
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J1mmgedmin, was there a reason you didn't resolve 648?14:27
mgedminI don't think I can do that14:27
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J1mhm, would you like to be able to?14:27
mgedminit wouldn't hurt14:28
mgedminespecially for bugs that I open myself ;)14:28
J1mOK, you are now a supporter. Congratulations. :)14:33
srichterJ1m: I am here now14:34
J1msrichter, have the issues been graded wrt criticality yet?14:34
J1mOK, I guess that should be the first priority.14:34
srichterI can do that right now though14:35
J1mAny opinion on how that should proceed?14:35
mgedminI think I found the fix to 645 yesterday14:35
mgedminI explained it here to benji, but he didn't respond, so I don't know if saw it14:35
mgedmin(povbot had fallen off the net, so my tentative solution is not in irc logs... it's good that I have local irc client logs too)14:36
J1mWhy not copy your text into the issue?14:37
J1mah, whew :)14:37
J1msrichter, I sugest we do it together.14:37
J1mYou start at the front and I'll start at the back, or the other way around, as you prefer.14:38
srichterOkay, I start from the back14:38
srichterI started already :-)14:38
J1mk, I'll start from the front.14:38
J1mme too.14:38
J1mI don't agree on 64714:38
J1mI'll follow up.14:39
srichterI mark all bugs as critical which I want to be reviewed14:39
srichterthey can be marked down again after the review14:39
J1mso then should the reviewers downgrade them if appropriate?14:39
J1mwell, I'm gonna comment on 647, since I already read it.14:40
* mgedmin comments on 64514:42
* mgedmin discovers that the collector is still slower than continental drift :(14:42
J1mYeah, we need something better.14:46
J1mI wonder why it's so slow.14:46
J1mI think z.o is running on decent hardware these days.14:47
J1msrichter, should we only be looking at bugs? Or should we check issues to make sure they aren't bugs?14:47
srichterhow do differentiate issues and bugs in the collector?14:48
* mgedmin closes 580 because it is a duplicate of 590 that /me fixed a while ago14:48
srichteroh, I see what you are saying14:48
srichterI never use the overview when going through the bugs/issues14:49
srichterI type in the bug number in the URL14:49
srichterthis way I go through all of them :-)14:49
* mgedmin does not understand what he wrote in the second part of 56514:49
stubDoes zope.test need to run with Python 2.3?14:51
stuberm... zope.testing14:51
mgedminI think 2.4 is required for modern zopes14:51
J1mIt will work with 2.3 and 2.4.14:51
J1mzope requires 2.4.14:52
J1mzope.testing works w 2.3.14:52
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stubJ1m: I'm wondering if I can use @classmethod in an extension or if I need to use foo = classmethod(foo)14:53
* stub reverts to ugly syntax14:53
J1mI'm not sure what you mean by an extension.14:53
J1mzope.testing itself needs to work with 2.3.14:53
* srichter notes that we also have to remove all BBB stuff that can be removed for Zope 3.314:54
baijumI think this is typo, is it?
stubJ1m: I'm adding testSetUp and testTearDown to the layers api14:55
stub(I can't think of a better name for the methods though for setup and teardown methods that are called for each test that uses a layer)14:56
J1mMe neither.14:56
J1mWasn't webdav locking implemented?14:57
srichtermkerrin was working on it in his big refactoring15:00
srichterbut that did not get merged15:00
srichtermmh, actually I am not sure whether there wasn't a rudementary implementation15:00
srichtermkerrin: I really would love to see that branch get done; I think your design is really cool and it would be a pitty if it gets lost ;-)15:01
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stubJ1m: Can you give svn+ssh:// ? If you are happy with the bulk of the changes I'm merge it into the trunk after tidying up a few daggy bits in the tests and maybe writing some more.15:03
J1mok, It may be a while before I can review it.  I'll add it to me todo list.15:04
J1mIf you get too impatient, go ahead and merge it after finishing the doctests.15:04
stubJ1m: Ta. I'm off for the evening anyway.15:05
mgedminbaijum: fwiw I think you're right about
J1mWhen I said "while", I was talking about days, not hours. :)15:06
J1mIs baijum not a committer?15:07
baijumJ1m, I am not a committer15:07
J1mWhy not?15:07
J1mIt's not like it's hard to become one. :)15:08
baijumthanks, will look up procedure, then I will contact15:08
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baijumis it same for ZF too?15:10
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J1mThe ZF committer process is still evolving.15:12
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J1mIn the furture, I hope to serparate commit privs from membership.15:12
J1mZF committer membership has to be earned.  Committer membership is not easy to get.15:13
J1mBut, IMO, committer access should be as easy to get as it is now, subject to the new agreement, which is easier in some ways (e.g. no patent liability) and harder in others (employer signature required).15:14
J1mBut IANIC (I am not in charge :)15:14
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baijumJ1m, I will send the current agreement by next week.15:20
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srichtermkerrin: could you check out issue 53315:35
mkerrinsrichter: will do15:38
srichterthanks a lot15:38
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srichterok I am done15:41
srichterI makred all the bugs that need to be at least addressed15:41
srichterReviewers should feel free to downgrade the importance level again15:42
ChrisWanyone know why transaction._transaction.MultiObjectResourceAdapter doesn't support savepoints?15:42
J1mHas there been any discussion on zope3-dev ove rthe last few months about the role of the zmi or on how much development it should recieve?15:42
TheuniJ1m:  i don't think so, but i'd like to see some discussion, and personally i'd like to see it receive some development. and i think i would also help with it ...15:43
rockyi haven't been using zope3 as much as i'd like but frankly i've found the current zope3 zmi quite useless... so i'd vote it either gets improved or dropped ;)15:44
J1mPersonally, I'd like to see Zope 3 become smaller and see the ZPI become an add-on or be left minimal.15:44
rockyJ1m: +115:44
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rockywell, +1 having it be an add-on ;)15:45
TheuniJ1m:  i'm fine with minimal, i'd mostly like to have some usability improvements15:45
rocky'course i thought it was kind of strange to see a bug tracker being distributed with zope 3.3 core15:45
Theuni-1 for an add-on which is not available in a default installation15:45
Theunisrichter:  you're probably the most knowledgable one for this topic, could you check my newly submitted issue 649 today?15:46
J1mrocky, the bug tracker was included as an example and to force z3 developers to run *some* app tests.15:46
J1mWe really need a better way to test 3rd-party apps with Zope 3.15:46
srichterTheuni: I just saw this; unfortunately with all the egg stuff going on, I know little about packaging15:46
rockylol... there needs to be three zope3 distros ... 1) bare bones zope3, no bells and whistles, but all the important libs and app server  2) zope3 with all the bells and whistles  3) zope3 with zope2 compatibility (which in fact would simply be zope2.x whatever since it contains zope3)15:47
srichterTheuni: did you use zpkgutils or egg stuff?15:47
J1mbuildbot has potential, but it is such a PITA to set up and manage.15:47
rockyJ1m: ah i see15:47
Theunisrichter:  i did what seemed to be _the_ way to do an official 3.3 release, so it was zpkg.15:47
Theunisrichter:  I don't know who does the actual release packages, so I was just guessing it's you. :)15:47
mkerrinsrichter: re 533: Just remembered, and just ran a simple test to make sure, but I fixed the issue ages ago along with some issues Rogar found. the issue just hasn't being marked has resolved:-)15:47
J1mrocky, agreed more or less.15:48
J1m1 should be an egg15:48
srichterJ1m: Theuni there has been some discussion on making the Boston skin the default, because it looks nicer15:48
Theunii wonder whether "Improving ZMI" (whatever this means, simplifying, bloating, nice graphics) could be a sprint topic for fall15:48
rocky*an* egg or *multiple* eggs?15:48
TheuniThe DZUG has a conference in fall and we are always looking for sprint topics ...15:49
J1mDon't know.15:49
J1mIf it is truly minimal, then maybe one eggs.15:49
srichterJ1m: I also want ZMI to become minimal; from my recent project I learned that we really only needed the ZMI for checking local utility configurations and use the error utility15:49
J1mThen again. maybe the truly minimal Zope 3 is empty. :)15:49
rockywell, single or multiple eggs is splitting hairs at this point i think15:49
Theunisrichter:  I have access to a group of usability experts that work for free for open source projects. So if we are able to define what we want the ZMI to do (use cases) we would very likely come up with some change proposals.15:50
TheuniJ1m:  having those various versions requires us to communicate what the (obvious) choice for various people would be ...15:50
J1mI think once we become truly egg enabled and start packing the bits as eggs, we'll learn a lot.15:50
rockypersonally i could see #1 being officially the zope3 app server egg, and when you easy_install it it downloads all of the other required zope3 libs like zope.interface, zope.schema, etc etc so that people could also install those individually as well15:50
J1mTheuni, yes, but I think the choices will become much cleaner.15:50
srichtermkerrin: thanks15:51
TheuniJ1m: I think I'd be pretty fine with anything as long as there is one huuuuge label that says "If you don't know or don't care (yet), take this." :)15:51
J1mrocky, no, that would imply that it depends on all the other stuff. That would be backwards.15:51
TheuniAnd the "take this" should probably one file.15:51
J1mI sort of home that the main Zope 3 with all of the bells and wistles will be Plone. :)15:51
* Theuni runs15:52
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rockyoh, i guess in that case that means we're getting our wires crossed as there are situations where i only want zope.interface installed (for my mod_python work) but other situations where i want the zope3 app server installed (which would also need zope.interface)15:52
J1mI don't think we can affort to maintain too many collections of bells and whistles.15:52
J1mI'm most interested in having a collection of eggs that I can mix and match in various ways.15:53
rockyyour plone statement is quite interesting ... i could very easily spread rumours now and get the plone community all pumped up about becoming the official zope3+bells+whistles distro :)15:53
J1mThat would be great imo.15:53
rockyi agree with your collection of eggs statement ... i very much want that as well15:54
rockyi've only really recently started to use easy_install and i've fallen in love ;)15:54
rockyof course my linux distro doesn't like it because i install everything into site-wide python, but oh well ;)15:55
J1mI kile it a lot too, although it has been a lot of work to make it do what I want, ala my buildout project.15:55
J1mThat's the problem with it.15:55
rockywell, i'd be curious to see if the rest of the python community sees it as a problem or just the zope community15:56
regebroI agree with the bell+whistles thing.  Zope3 should be the application server on which you build applications. It should be unuseable by itself, and then you should have systems on top of it.15:56
regebroLike ECM systems. For example Plone.15:56
J1mWell, the most voval user of it, Ian Bicking sees it as a big problem.15:57
rockyright... of course in the mean time plone has to (sadly) run on the zope2 app server ... but i like the current path of zope2 and zope3 convergence (whatever that means)15:57
regebroIt should be possible to have a script with the zope-distro that does what easy_install does, but installs it in the current site.15:57
J1mHe has been lobbying for and tried various ways to construct development environments based on eggs.15:58
rockyJ1m: really? i only follow ian bicking a little but i haven't seen such comments15:58
J1mAnd has had lots of frustations.15:58
regebrobin/eatsomeeggs. :)15:58
J1mrocky, read the distutils sig archives.15:58
rockyregebro: lol, yeah, i've been thinking about that as well15:58
rockyoh no, not another mailing list ;)15:58
J1mMy buildout project is an attempt to create such an environment.15:58
J1mI'm pretty happy with where I've gotten so far.15:59
J1mMy use cases are a little different frm Ians.15:59
rockythe problem with such an approach is that the zope community has to do yet another thing its own way (even if it is based on the python way)15:59
* rocky wishes he could just use the python way, as-is15:59
J1mThe Zope community has helped define the Python way on a number of occasions.16:00
J1mIn any case, the v=buildout project is not zope specific.16:00
J1mIt meets an unmet need and will be distributed separately.16:00
rockyah ok16:01
J1mI'll be presenting it in a Python, not a Zope track at EP.16:01
* srichter will be a bit distracted for a time ;-)16:01
* rocky is disappointed not to be going to EP :(16:01
* rocky informs srichter that distraction is not an option and his full attention must be on zope3 all day :)16:01
* ChrisW actually has moderate hopes for england this time round...16:02
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regebrorocky: if easy_install has a parameter to say where to install it, the zope script could just call easy_install.16:04
rockyregebro: that wouldn't be too bad... and i do believe that easy_install has such an option ... but nouri keeps reminding me that we could just use the --mult-version stuff that setuptools already supports16:04
rockyso eggs would install in system wide python site-packages but you could still have multiple versions16:05
regebrorocky: I don't know the benefits of that, but I'm pretty sure I'd get confused. :)16:06
rockybenefits of that is whatever we install is still available to entire OS rather than one little zope instance16:06
rockyat least thats one benefit16:06
regebroFor a good localized install, which you want to have as a developer, you really want everything in <site>/lib/python16:06
rockysetuptools already deals with different versions, why not piggy back off of that rather than try to resolve that by using zope instances16:07
regebroI think it may be a developer vs user issue.16:07
regebroI may need 4-5 different versions, often local ones that HAVE no real version, but are being developed by me. :)16:07
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rockyregebro: indeed, thats what ./ develop is for :)16:08
regebroRight. Probably what we need is an overview over all the usecases, and how they can be solved today,16:08
regebroThen we need to find or make a solution that covers all, in an easy to understand way.16:08
rockyand preferably contribute that solution back to the python community at large of course16:09
rockyso, like J1m is doing with his buildout thing, we build something not specific to zope, but something that does support zope's use cases16:10
regebroIt's important that solutions either are standard in the python community, or claim to be. :)16:10
regebroIf it's not standard, it must be called "Python Standard Something Something". :)16:10
rockyreminds me, is setuptools gonna be distributed with py2.5 ?16:11
regebroThe component architecture should have been called "Python Component Architecture". I tell ya, the Python people would be loving it. :)16:11
rockyregebro: absolutely! :)16:11
regebro(That's how it's done in J2EE. Their replacement to MailHost is called "Java Sendmail API" or something.)16:12
ChrisWanyone know where to find docs for zodb datamanagers? I'm trying to make the one in MaildropHost support savepoints16:13
ChrisWall a little scary :-/16:13
rockyregebro: well yeah, the reason being that the company that controls java has a big stake in server-side enterprise deployments so its in their best interest to create such server standards16:15
rockyi always compare zope is to python as j2ee is to java ... unfortunately it breaks down when you realize there are many different implementations of j2ee and only one implementation of zope16:15
benjiand zope doesn't suck, rocky16:16
rockyhaha, good point benji16:16
ChrisWwell, when zope's interfaces stabilise, you may start seeing more implementations16:16
regebroAh. Yeah, you are right, that's probably the reason. Java and J2EE are the same guys, that's why the call everything "java bleh blah".16:16
rockyj2ee isn't so bad... its biggest weakness is java of course16:16
* ChrisW snivvles quietly... will make Jens pay at some point...16:17
regebroThere are many implementations of J2EE servers, but are there really many impleme ntations of J2EE?16:17
rockybut i think sun has a great idea with j2ee ... having some decent standards and getting other vendors to implement them the best and most effective way they know how16:17
regebroThat's like somebody making another server that still can publish component architecture objects, but maybe doesn't support ZPT, or broswer:* or...16:18
mgedmina nice picture of j2ee call stacks:
rockyregebro: an implementation of a J2EE server is by definition an implementation of J2EE (or at least a partial implementation)16:18
mgedminzope still has far to go until it reaches that point16:18
rockya full implementation of J2EE includes a full implementation of Java, so if you were going to *fully* implement J2ee, you'd have to provide your own java as well (ibm does this)16:18
rockybut most j2ee server vendors only distribute the server bits (and not java itself)16:19
regebromgedmin: Well, I don't think it's even desireable. :) Unless we get so many core developers they don't knwo what to do. :)16:19
* rocky spent 6 years developing professionally with j2ee before he struck zope16:19
ChrisWbut is zope closer to gold or oil in your mind? ;-)16:19
SteveAmaybe closer to "off"16:20
regebroIt's goil. :)16:20
ChrisWI refer the honourable gentlemen to my previous conundrum16:20
ChrisWthe transaction module is pretty scary16:20
rockyif there was a business model around selling Zope itself, it would certainly be useful for ZC to control the Zope interfaces so that other vendors could implement their own Zope's based on those interfaces16:21
ChrisWfrom zope 3 trunk, # TODO: comment out this expensive assert later16:21
ChrisWit's still there, and in Zope 2 as well16:21
rockybut as it stands the closest comparison of zope now to j2ee is to actually compare zope to jboss16:22
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* rocky stops blabbing about java16:22
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* faassen sneaks in, dropping a few belated easter eggs in various corners.16:32
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rockyfaassen: you missed out talk of replacing egg technology with some new super zope technology *grin*16:39
J1mrocky, zc.buildout builds on setuptools.16:41
J1mThere is no replacement going on.16:41
rockyJ1m: i know, i was trying to scare faassen ;)16:41
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J1mI've been in close contact with pje and my experiements have driven a couple of recent setuptools releases.16:41
rockyJ1m: thats great... please don't interpret my comments as me thinking you're working against python, i was only joking for faassen's sake :)16:42
J1mI'll note that the Python standard library is only suitable for small scripts.16:42
J1mThe notion that non-trivial applications can all use the same versions of modules is just missguided.16:43
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J1mYou *need* the ability to say: "This program needs version X os package P", regardless of what other programs might needs or what's installed in the standard library.16:43
J1mFor real programs, you want to be very explicit and non-deterministic.16:44
J1mThat's what's behind the egglinker module in zc.buildout.16:44
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J1mzc.buildout is based on several years of experience with systems for creating deployments including lots of Python and non-Python applications.16:45
faassenI already scoped out zc.buildout.16:45
J1mFirst, based on make, and later with a Prototype Python-based buildout system.16:46
faassenanyway, J1m16:46
faassenI'm curious to find out more about zc.buildout16:46
faassenI looked at it earlier this week trying to figure out what I'd do with it16:46
faassenbut I couldn't really wrap my brain around it yet.16:46
faassenrocky: people just like to rile me up, huh? :)16:47
faassenrocky: I am very amusing to try to rile up for some reason. I don't really mind. :)16:47
J1mso, what we do with the previous version:16:47
faassenJ1m: anyway, for my immediate concern I'd just like eggs to work with a Zope 3 instance's lib/python16:47
J1mWe have some application, that includes zope instances, test runners, databases, and various pther support applications.16:47
J1mWe need to get these assembled.16:48
regebroOK, so first of all, rename it Python buildout, or all python people will hate it. Secondly, ....ok, there is no secondly. :)16:48
faassenJ1m: as that's a minimal change that will make my life very happy. I can just tell people 1) install setup utils, 2) type this command (some easy_install stuff), and copy a zcml slug into etc/package-includes..done.16:48
J1mWe model these as parts and have recipes that build the parts.16:48
faassenregebro: yeah, I agree with regebro on naming, it needs to be named something generic as otherwise nobody will adopt it. :)16:49
J1mThis includes recipes for creating Zope instances.16:49
faassenJ1m: it's definitely interesting work.16:49
faassenJ1m: but what do you think about modifying bin/test and bin/zopectl and bin/runzope to make lib/python a site? :)16:50
J1mSo, you'd be able to have a zope instance recipe and specify in the configuration what custom eggs it has.16:50
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* rocky gets off the phone and reads scrollback16:50
J1mfaassen, I think that's a bad idea.16:50
faassenJ1m: shit, then I can't use eggs with Zope 3.316:50
J1mTrying to emulate a the madness is just a hack.16:50
faassenwell, a hack that would make it trivial to install a complicated Zope 3 application today.16:51
J1mI'd rather have a generated test runner that includes the corect eggs in the path.16:51
faassenanyway, I guess I'll just distribute a script then that hack-patches bin/test, bin/zopectl and bin/runzope16:51
faassenand tell people to run that for their instance.16:51
J1mMy goal is to have the buildout generate those scripts.16:52
* rocky is very interested in seeing all this egg stuff work well but unfortunately doesn't know enough to contribute properly16:52
faassenI know, but I just want my application to be easy to install today.16:52
J1mWhich I am already doing.16:52
J1mI expect that the buildout will be usable with Zope 3 soon.16:52
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J1mIt's just a matter of writing some more recipes.16:52
J1mThere is already a testrunner recipe.16:53
faassenokay, so while I'll wait for that I'll distribute my script.16:53
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J1mNote that the buildout project is defined via the buildout.16:53
rockyfaassen: we're in a similar boat with plone, we'd love to be able to distribute plone as a set of eggs today, and nouri has already experimented with that16:53
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nouriJ1m: I'm thinking that setuptools already allows for defining a specific version X of package P to be used.16:55
nourifaassen: I think that your script should install something like workingenv and then users can run $INSTANCE_HOME/bin/activate and install things the easy-install-without-arguments way16:55
nourijust an idea though, it's maybe less impact16:56
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faassennouri: it's just that I want to make it all work with the minimal amount of work.16:56
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faassennouri: I'm not claiming a right solution.16:56
faassennouri: I just can't afford to spend a lot of time making this work right now.16:56
nourifaassen: I'm saying that because I think it's less amount of work, really16:56
nouriand more convenient for the user, but I can see your point16:56
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faassennouri: hm, it'd require me to work out how to make it work with workingenv16:56
faassennouri: compared to something I got working right now.16:57
faassennouri: anyway, I'm not debating that it mightn't be cleaner.16:57
faassennouri: I'll take a look into it later.16:57
* nouri nods16:57
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J1mI've been fooling with setuptools for months now.16:58
J1mThe pices are there, but it's hard to make them work the way you expect.16:58
J1mNathan Yergler also beat his head against it hard.16:58
J1mas has Ian Bicking.16:59
faassenI saw Ian's stuff.16:59
J1mTo me the important thing to realize is:16:59
J1m1. We have different use cases than easy install.16:59
J1m2. We should use the lower-level APIs to get what we want. Most of them are quire reasonable.16:59
J1mI think its a fundamental mistake to think about an application the same way people have traditionally thought about the standard library.17:00
faassenJ1m: how does zc.buildout compare with paste deploy stuff?17:00
J1mI don't think there is much overlap.17:01
J1mpast-deploy is primarily a way to wire WSGI components together.17:01
faassenJ1m: how are you going to market this to developers in the whole matrix thing?17:01
faassenJ1m: of eggs, setuptools, easy install, paste deploy, etc.17:01
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faassenJ1m: most effective would be to have it somehow be bundled with setuptools I suspect. :)17:02
faassenbecause setuptools goes through a lot of work to make sure that it is easy to get installed on a system.17:02
J1mIsn't the whope point of eggs that you don't have to bundle things together>17:02
J1mso does the buildout.17:02
J1mYou can install it in 2 ways:17:03
faassenanyway, I'm more thinking about mindshare anyawy.17:03
J1mInstall it using easy_setup.17:03
rockyJ1m: thats not the "whole" point of eggs, but certainly a good point ;)17:03
faassenit's very likely that people will see zc.buildout, think, oh, some thing I don't care about, and move on.17:03
faasseneven though they should be caring about it.17:03
J1m2. Use it's bootstrap script, which installs it and setuptools into a working directory.17:04
faassenyeah, I saw the bootstrapping code.17:04
J1mFine, we can market it.17:04
J1mI'd rather get an initial version doctested and implemented first.17:04
J1mThe marketing campaign will begin with my talk at EP.17:04
faassenI was just thinking it should be associated in people's minds with eggs somehow. and cheesehops. :)17:04
J1mI'm happy to rename it later if people find it useful and think rebranding is important.17:05
faassenlike, as in, "oh, this is part of that cool playground of improved installation stuff" instead of "oh, this is this alien package"17:05
mgedminbuy one crate of eggs, get zc.buildout for free!17:05
J1mIn fact, once the initial version is finished, I'll turn over the marketing campaign to you guys.17:06
* rocky wonders if that means it'll be better or worse marketing ;)17:06
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faassenI don't think I can do better marketing.17:08
faassenit's just that I think when creating a new python library intended for general use.17:08
faassenit's important to consider such.17:08
faassenespecially if it's infrastructural.17:08
* rocky thinks his question better had not be based on zope3's current track record of marketing :)17:08
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J1msrichter, has the Content Component stuff been releases with Zope 3?17:21
J1mDoes anyone else know?17:21
faassenI don't know.17:24
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J1mSteveA, ayt?17:32
SteveAhi J1m17:32
J1mIs there any chance that you'd have time to check wjther 258 has been fixed?17:32
SteveAi'll have a look17:34
J1mfaassen, btw wrt instances, we've found the instance home idea kind of useless for production deployments.  SA's like to have files scattered all over the system and our more recent instance recipes tend to do that. :)17:36
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J1mdang, content components were included in 3.2. :(17:37
SteveAJ1m: i can no longer reproduce collector 258.17:38
SteveAso i closed it, fixed resolved17:39
J1mI'll close it then.17:39
J1mah cool17:39
J1mI'm pretty sure there are even tests for this. :)17:39
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rockybest practices question ... i have a view component that i need to access (need to invoke some of its methods) from a zpt, whats the easiest way to lookup that view component in the zpt?18:39
rockyseems like the easiest approach is to use <browser:page> to define my view and then in my zpt just do @@myview ... seems i can't do @@myview with regular <view>18:40
mgedminyou can do @@myview with regular <browser:view>18:41
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rockyreally? hm... guess i'm getting <view>, <browser:view>, and <browser:page> all mixed up :(18:42
mgedminAFAIU if you use <browser:view>, then random people can't access your view by adding @@myview to the URL, while if you use <browser:page>, they can18:42
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rockyalso, <browser:view> seems to require an interface for its "for" attribute whereas <browser:page> can accept just using a class instead18:43
rockyat least via zope2/Five18:44
mgedminI would say that's a bug18:44
rockywhich is a bug? that it doesn't understand regular classes? or that page does support classes ?18:46
mgedmineither, preferably the first one18:47
J1mIt should accept a class.18:48
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rockyConfigurationError: ('Invalid value for', 'for', 'An interface is required')18:49
faassenit should all accept classes.18:49
mgedminas far as I know zcml, this is fixable by changing the field type in the schema of that directive18:53
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mgedminshouldn't IBrowserView declare that views have attributes called `context` and `request`?  or is that just a convention, and not required for all views?19:09
mgedminerr, I meant IBrowserPage19:10
mgedminI think IBrowserView already declares those19:10
J1mDoes IBrowserPage extend IBrowserView?19:11
faassengosh, how I wish I could add the addsitedir() line to various scripts in the bin directory.19:11
faassenjust this command would then install the Document Library into Zope 3 along with about 5 or 6 dependencies19:11
faassenPYTHONPATH=lib/python easy_install --install-dir=lib/python DocumentLibrary19:11
mgedminIBrowserView extends IView, which is deprecated, as far as I can tell19:11
J1mWhere is IBrowserPage?19:12
faassengosh, just a few lines added here and there. :)19:12
mgedminright next to IBrowserView19:12
mgedminwhich is not deprecated19:13
mgedminbut inherits IView19:13
* mgedmin is confused19:13
J1mIt would be nice to clean up IView.19:15
J1mI don't think IBrowserPage should define browser and request.19:15
J1mI think that was a mistake in IBrowserView.19:16
J1mright :)19:16
regebroYeah, a small cleanup of that would be nice. And then we deprecate browser:page and stuff and use my neat solution instead. ;)19:16
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J1mThis is really a contract between ViewPageTemplate file and the object it is bound to.19:16
J1mIt would be nice to work on a proposal at EP.19:16
J1mI'll be there and available for sprinting most of Saturday and all of Sunday.19:17
J1mI really want to clean up these interfaces, but it's hard to contemplate small changes when larger changes are in store. :)19:18
J1mFor now, I'd leave IBrowsePage alone.19:18
J1mIt is OK to extend a deprecated interface as long as there is a plan to do something else when it goes away.19:18
regebroJ1m: which saturday/sunday is that?19:19
J1mbefore ep.19:19
J1mThe consensus seemed to be that zope sprinting would be before.19:20
J1mSo that's what I planned on.19:20
J1mSee the sprint wiki page.19:20
regebroOK. If sprinting on the views/pages happen, I will try to be online.19:21
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NoynacHello, can any one help me with the IServerType interface21:29
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J1mwho is responsible for the boston skin?21:43
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rockyi dunno, but whit has suggested i start either the dildo skin or virgin arm skin (the name of my home town is Virgin Arm and a town very close by is named, 'Dildo' ... no, i'm not joking)  :)21:47
whitwell, it was the possiblity of having the sprint at "Dildo Run Snacks" that seemed so appealing ;)21:48
whitrocky's local eatery21:48
rockyoh right, forgot about that one21:48
rocky for pics confirming those names21:49
rockynewfoundland was founded by drunken sailors ;)21:49
benjior by people who had a hard time naming things21:50
rockyVirgin Arm i know has reasonable history ... it's a small peninsula (hence 'arm') and there was an abundance of uncut trees (hence 'virgin' trees)21:51
Theuniso a couple of sailors went out and "cut" some trees, hmm?21:51
rockywe also have town names like, Too Good Arm, Dark Hole, etc21:51
rockybut i don't have pics of those21:52
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benjinewfoundland settler one to newfoundland settler two:  what should we name this new land we just found21:52
* rocky waits for benji's punch line21:53
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* whit watches joke layer upon itself21:53
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rockythe name of the island that i live on (that the town of Virgin Arm is on) is called, "New World Island"  ;)21:54
Noynaccan any one help me with getting the SFTP server to start in Zope 321:55
NoynacI am getting a ComponentLookup error21:56
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J1mOK, issues have been classified.  There are 31 critical bugs that we need to fix befor ethe release.22:00
benjialso, I skimmed the XXXs the other day and saw several that need to be fixed and/or discussed with the person that added them22:01
benji(as usual, several are also just TODOs in disguise)22:02
benjiI had hoped to address some of them today, but have been sucked into testbrowser/mechanize bugs (that bit us on our current project)22:08
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TheuniJ1m:  how do i get a list of those 31?22:16
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J1mgo to the collector, scroll to the bottom, select critical and bug and then submit the search button.22:17
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TheuniJ1m:  why only query for bug and not issue?22:35
J1mBecause we only need to fix bugs to make the release.22:35
J1mThat's what's urgent.22:35
J1mWe'll be lucky to get the bugs fixed in a timely manner.22:36
TheuniAlright. So what about the issue i filed that the packaging release misses a file that stops the server from working? Should I make that a bug? Because the release is unusable without it.22:37
Theunis/packaging release/packaged release/22:37
J1mYes, obviously.22:38
TheuniI'm sorry if I'm annoying on that. I just don't grok the process that is followed with the collector 100%ly.22:39
NoynacDoes any one know why this error occurs zope.component.interfaces.ComponentLookupError: (<InterfaceClass>, 'SFTP')22:40
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TheuniI'll try to pick a few bugs to solve this evening instead. ;)22:40
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mgedminNoynac: because the IServerType utility named SFTP is not defined in your zcml configuration22:42
mgedminmaybe there's some zcml package include that you need to drop into etc/package-includes22:42
NoynacThis is the default zope 3 install I am just trying to get SFTp running ..22:44
NoynacWhen I unremm the sftp server in the zope .conf file it does this ..22:44
NoynacI have a zcml in the package includes directory.. in my instance etc22:45
NoynacIs that the zcml file you are talking about ..22:45
mgedminI've never used the SFTP server, sorry22:49
pcardunebenji: I checked out your Zope3 Quick Start Guide.  It looks very good.  The only problem is that the README.txt file in the svn repository does not give any instructions for making a zope instance (as it says in your tut).22:55
benjithanks, pcardune, I'll look into it22:55
J1mTheuni, are you the one making releases these days?23:02
Theunihell no ... :)23:02
* Theuni runs23:03
J1mThen I wonder why all the questions about making them. :)23:03
J1mWhoever made the windows release didn't use the correct release area,23:03
* benji recalls Theuni volunteering23:03
J1mI really don't mind making them.23:03
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J1mOh, I take that back23:04
J1mnever mind23:04
J1mthe windows release did have bat files.23:04
J1mStupid new indows install doesn't show me extensions.23:04
TheuniThe package-making-process doesn't seem that bad, but my intention was merely to verify whether the problem I had with beta1 is out of the current build. Which it is, and then I found the next problem in the package. ;)23:04
mgedminI think mechanize is complaining about <select> it finds inside a /* */ comment inside a <script> element23:04
* benji screams23:05
* Theuni scares benji23:05
benjimechanize has ruined my day23:05
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mgedminyup, that's it23:06
mgedminwhat does it use for parsing html? regexes?23:06
whitnice....glad to see mechanize still makes the kids happy23:06
benjiyou would think so, mgedmin, but no23:06
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baldtrolhi all...  this might be better asked in an email, but i'll pitch the short version here ;)23:24
baldtroli have a particular form.EditForm that overrides the local context in order to pull in the right values for a content object (i want to be able to edit resource without actually traversing to it's location).  i can get the data correctly, but when i attempt to post back, the original request params that determined the context aren't there anymore.  in other frameworks, i just build in hidden fields that capture the original request data...23:25
J1mTheuni, what was missing from the release?23:26
baldtrolis there a way to do that with formlib?  create a dynamic hidden field that captures request params?23:26
TheuniJ1m: Ended up as an empty file. See issue 64923:26 is also missing.23:27
J1mso whoever made the release didn't try to test it.23:27
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avoinei try to make the some product with the The Zope 3 Developers Book but i got many DeprecationWarning the book its outdated? do you know where to find some book or tutorial up-to-date?23:28
TheuniThere are a couple of things where our 3.2 application's functional tests break, but the app itself seems to work in 3.3.23:28
baldtrolavoine: most of the deprecations are simple enough to trace to the new libraries...  anything in particular that's breaking?23:30
mgedminbaldtrol: you can do everything with formlib that you can do without it23:30
mgedminbaldtrol: override the template, use the macros from the default one, fill in some slot with as many <input type="hidden" /> elements as you desire23:30
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baldtrolmgedmin: that's a good idea (surprise surprise)...  something like <input type="hidden" tal:attributes="value view/somethingfromrequest" />23:32
Theunihmm. avoine i'm sorry. i didn't answer your questions, i was just hinting j1m to my effort of trying out the compatibility of zope 3.3 to 3.2.23:32
mgedminbaldtrol: yes -- well, if you want something from the request, you probably want "value request/something|nothing"23:32
baldtrolmgedmin: certainly, i just meant "somevalue if i did some preprocessing from the request" etc instead of putting the request value in explicitly.  i assume then that if i override applyChanges and rebuild my context back from the posted hiddens, that should just work.  or it seems like it will.23:34
baldtroli'll give it a shot when i get back where i have access to that code.  thanks :D23:36
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J1mThe ZEO tests are insane23:52
TheuniWhich kind of insanity do you refer to right now? :)23:54
J1mWell tests fail intermittently.23:54
J1mI wonder if someone can run then and not get errors.23:54
Theuniwhich ones, zodb 3.7 ?23:54
TheuniI'm fairly sure they passed on my machine recently23:55
Theuni(For certain values of recently)23:55
J1mwhatever was in Zope
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J1mI think we should change make check in the release to not run the zeo tests.23:55
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J1mI just ran them on my mac and on my linux box and some tests failed on each.23:57
J1mNot the same ones of course.23:57
Theunisounds like the timing things23:57
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J1mOh yeah23:57
Theunii'm running them over here too23:58
J1mThe whole ZEO test suite is a big timing thing.23:58
* mgedmin once committed a doctest that ran a unit test suite and compared its output with "Ran 7 tests in 0.003s"23:59
J1mand of course the tests never say what they are testing.23:59
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Theuniheh. i know of a couple of tests that can not be run on full hours ;)23:59
J1mAlthough on the mac, the same 3 tests seem to be failing every time.23:59

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