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| baijum | good morning! | 06:04 |
|---|---|---|
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| Theuni | does anybody know how i can create a zope3 release out of a checkout? | 06:05 |
| Theuni | hmm. looks like i found it | 06:08 |
| Theuni | hm | 06:13 |
| Theuni | except that it doesn't work for the current zope 3.3 branch | 06:13 |
| Theuni | something complaining about ClientCookie not beeing a module | 06:13 |
| baijum | Theuni, are you following http://www.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/MakingARelease ? | 06:14 |
| Theuni | no, didn't find that ... sorry | 06:15 |
| * Theuni tries again | 06:16 | |
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| Theuni | Doesn't work either | 06:23 |
| Theuni | still complains about clientcookie | 06:23 |
| Theuni | hmm. maybe a zpkg fault ... /me tries the trunk | 06:25 |
| Theuni | hmm | 06:28 |
| Theuni | now .. | 06:28 |
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| baijum | What is the status of this bug http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev/466 ? | 06:48 |
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| baijum | There was a note about it here : zope/app/catalog/browser/advanced.pt | 06:49 |
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| eins | hi all | 08:05 |
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| romanofski | moin | 09:42 |
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| eins | brupp simply put init-connect = "SET NAMES utf8" to my.cnf | 10:47 |
| eins | oops | 10:47 |
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| baijum | I think this is typo, is it? http://zope3.pastebin.com/712516 | 11:52 |
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| ChrisW | is there a channel for Five? | 12:00 |
| ChrisW | failing that, there a complete zcml reference online anywhere? | 12:05 |
| baijum | Should we give empty Unicode string as default values for methods in interfaces.py, for eg:- def getValue(name=u""): | 12:22 |
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| baijum | if yes, many in Zope3 source are not Unicode string, try: $ find . -name interfaces.py | xargs grep -n "def\ .*(.*=['\"]" | 12:25 |
| eins | yeah, and concating unicode strings and non unicode strings leads to errors, many of them are in sqlscript :( | 12:40 |
| eins | on every zope3 release I have to patch zope to make sqlscript work normally | 12:41 |
| ChrisW | why not just feed those patches back into the releases then> | 12:41 |
| ChrisW | ? | 12:41 |
| eins | some of them are just workarounds, and because of lack of time I can't produce real patches | 12:42 |
| eins | there are tons of problems with sqlscript | 12:43 |
| eins | someday I will write everything down and send to someone | 12:43 |
| ChrisW | in zcml, how do I specify that a class implements a particular interface? | 12:44 |
| eins | why do you need that in ZCML? | 12:45 |
| ChrisW | so that I don't have to go and patch a third party module | 12:46 |
| ChrisW | this is what zcml was invented for, remember? ;-) | 12:46 |
| eins | :} | 12:46 |
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| J1m | srichter, ayt? | 14:23 |
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| J1m | mgedmin, was there a reason you didn't resolve 648? | 14:27 |
| mgedmin | I don't think I can do that | 14:27 |
| *** J1m changes topic to "Bug Day today! || logs available at http://zope3.pov.lt/irclogs/ || paste code examples into http://zope3.pastebin.com/" | 14:27 | |
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| J1m | hm, would you like to be able to? | 14:27 |
| mgedmin | it wouldn't hurt | 14:28 |
| mgedmin | especially for bugs that I open myself ;) | 14:28 |
| J1m | OK, you are now a supporter. Congratulations. :) | 14:33 |
| srichter | J1m: I am here now | 14:34 |
| J1m | srichter, have the issues been graded wrt criticality yet? | 14:34 |
| srichter | no | 14:34 |
| J1m | OK, I guess that should be the first priority. | 14:34 |
| srichter | I can do that right now though | 14:35 |
| J1m | Any opinion on how that should proceed? | 14:35 |
| mgedmin | I think I found the fix to 645 yesterday | 14:35 |
| mgedmin | I explained it here to benji, but he didn't respond, so I don't know if saw it | 14:35 |
| mgedmin | (povbot had fallen off the net, so my tentative solution is not in irc logs... it's good that I have local irc client logs too) | 14:36 |
| J1m | Why not copy your text into the issue? | 14:37 |
| J1m | ah, whew :) | 14:37 |
| J1m | srichter, I sugest we do it together. | 14:37 |
| J1m | You start at the front and I'll start at the back, or the other way around, as you prefer. | 14:38 |
| srichter | Okay, I start from the back | 14:38 |
| srichter | I started already :-) | 14:38 |
| J1m | k, I'll start from the front. | 14:38 |
| J1m | me too. | 14:38 |
| J1m | I don't agree on 647 | 14:38 |
| J1m | :) | 14:38 |
| J1m | I'll follow up. | 14:39 |
| srichter | I mark all bugs as critical which I want to be reviewed | 14:39 |
| srichter | they can be marked down again after the review | 14:39 |
| J1m | so then should the reviewers downgrade them if appropriate? | 14:39 |
| J1m | ah | 14:39 |
| J1m | k | 14:39 |
| srichter | right | 14:39 |
| J1m | well, I'm gonna comment on 647, since I already read it. | 14:40 |
| * mgedmin comments on 645 | 14:42 | |
| * mgedmin discovers that the collector is still slower than continental drift :( | 14:42 | |
| J1m | Yeah, we need something better. | 14:46 |
| J1m | I wonder why it's so slow. | 14:46 |
| J1m | I think z.o is running on decent hardware these days. | 14:47 |
| J1m | srichter, should we only be looking at bugs? Or should we check issues to make sure they aren't bugs? | 14:47 |
| srichter | how do differentiate issues and bugs in the collector? | 14:48 |
| * mgedmin closes 580 because it is a duplicate of 590 that /me fixed a while ago | 14:48 | |
| srichter | oh, I see what you are saying | 14:48 |
| srichter | I never use the overview when going through the bugs/issues | 14:49 |
| srichter | I type in the bug number in the URL | 14:49 |
| srichter | this way I go through all of them :-) | 14:49 |
| * mgedmin does not understand what he wrote in the second part of 565 | 14:49 | |
| stub | Does zope.test need to run with Python 2.3? | 14:51 |
| stub | erm... zope.testing | 14:51 |
| mgedmin | I think 2.4 is required for modern zopes | 14:51 |
| J1m | It will work with 2.3 and 2.4. | 14:51 |
| J1m | zope requires 2.4. | 14:52 |
| J1m | zope.testing works w 2.3. | 14:52 |
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| stub | J1m: I'm wondering if I can use @classmethod in an extension or if I need to use foo = classmethod(foo) | 14:53 |
| * stub reverts to ugly syntax | 14:53 | |
| J1m | I'm not sure what you mean by an extension. | 14:53 |
| J1m | zope.testing itself needs to work with 2.3. | 14:53 |
| * srichter notes that we also have to remove all BBB stuff that can be removed for Zope 3.3 | 14:54 | |
| baijum | I think this is typo, is it? http://zope3.pastebin.com/712516 | 14:54 |
| stub | J1m: I'm adding testSetUp and testTearDown to the layers api | 14:55 |
| J1m | cool | 14:55 |
| stub | (I can't think of a better name for the methods though for setup and teardown methods that are called for each test that uses a layer) | 14:56 |
| J1m | Me neither. | 14:56 |
| J1m | Wasn't webdav locking implemented? | 14:57 |
| srichter | no | 15:00 |
| srichter | mkerrin was working on it in his big refactoring | 15:00 |
| srichter | but that did not get merged | 15:00 |
| srichter | mmh, actually I am not sure whether there wasn't a rudementary implementation | 15:00 |
| J1m | k | 15:01 |
| srichter | mkerrin: I really would love to see that branch get done; I think your design is really cool and it would be a pitty if it gets lost ;-) | 15:01 |
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| stub | J1m: Can you give svn+ssh://svn.zope.org/repos/main/zope.testing/branches/stub-testSetUp_in_layer ? If you are happy with the bulk of the changes I'm merge it into the trunk after tidying up a few daggy bits in the tests and maybe writing some more. | 15:03 |
| J1m | ok, It may be a while before I can review it. I'll add it to me todo list. | 15:04 |
| J1m | If you get too impatient, go ahead and merge it after finishing the doctests. | 15:04 |
| stub | J1m: Ta. I'm off for the evening anyway. | 15:05 |
| mgedmin | baijum: fwiw I think you're right about http://zope3.pastebin.com/712516 | 15:05 |
| J1m | When I said "while", I was talking about days, not hours. :) | 15:06 |
| J1m | Is baijum not a committer? | 15:07 |
| baijum | J1m, I am not a committer | 15:07 |
| J1m | Why not? | 15:07 |
| J1m | It's not like it's hard to become one. :) | 15:08 |
| baijum | thanks, will look up procedure, then I will contact | 15:08 |
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| J1m | http://www.zope.org/DevHome/Subversion/Contributor.pdf | 15:10 |
| baijum | is it same for ZF too? | 15:10 |
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| J1m | No | 15:11 |
| J1m | The ZF committer process is still evolving. | 15:12 |
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| J1m | In the furture, I hope to serparate commit privs from membership. | 15:12 |
| J1m | ZF committer membership has to be earned. Committer membership is not easy to get. | 15:13 |
| J1m | But, IMO, committer access should be as easy to get as it is now, subject to the new agreement, which is easier in some ways (e.g. no patent liability) and harder in others (employer signature required). | 15:14 |
| J1m | But IANIC (I am not in charge :) | 15:14 |
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| baijum | J1m, I will send the current agreement by next week. | 15:20 |
| J1m | cool | 15:21 |
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| srichter | mkerrin: could you check out issue 533 | 15:35 |
| mkerrin | srichter: will do | 15:38 |
| srichter | thanks a lot | 15:38 |
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| srichter | ok I am done | 15:41 |
| srichter | I makred all the bugs that need to be at least addressed | 15:41 |
| srichter | Reviewers should feel free to downgrade the importance level again | 15:42 |
| ChrisW | anyone know why transaction._transaction.MultiObjectResourceAdapter doesn't support savepoints? | 15:42 |
| J1m | Has there been any discussion on zope3-dev ove rthe last few months about the role of the zmi or on how much development it should recieve? | 15:42 |
| Theuni | J1m: i don't think so, but i'd like to see some discussion, and personally i'd like to see it receive some development. and i think i would also help with it ... | 15:43 |
| J1m | k | 15:43 |
| rocky | i haven't been using zope3 as much as i'd like but frankly i've found the current zope3 zmi quite useless... so i'd vote it either gets improved or dropped ;) | 15:44 |
| J1m | Personally, I'd like to see Zope 3 become smaller and see the ZPI become an add-on or be left minimal. | 15:44 |
| J1m | s/ZPI/ZMI | 15:44 |
| rocky | J1m: +1 | 15:44 |
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| rocky | well, +1 having it be an add-on ;) | 15:45 |
| Theuni | J1m: i'm fine with minimal, i'd mostly like to have some usability improvements | 15:45 |
| rocky | 'course i thought it was kind of strange to see a bug tracker being distributed with zope 3.3 core | 15:45 |
| Theuni | -1 for an add-on which is not available in a default installation | 15:45 |
| Theuni | srichter: you're probably the most knowledgable one for this topic, could you check my newly submitted issue 649 today? | 15:46 |
| J1m | rocky, the bug tracker was included as an example and to force z3 developers to run *some* app tests. | 15:46 |
| J1m | We really need a better way to test 3rd-party apps with Zope 3. | 15:46 |
| srichter | Theuni: I just saw this; unfortunately with all the egg stuff going on, I know little about packaging | 15:46 |
| rocky | lol... there needs to be three zope3 distros ... 1) bare bones zope3, no bells and whistles, but all the important libs and app server 2) zope3 with all the bells and whistles 3) zope3 with zope2 compatibility (which in fact would simply be zope2.x whatever since it contains zope3) | 15:47 |
| srichter | Theuni: did you use zpkgutils or egg stuff? | 15:47 |
| J1m | buildbot has potential, but it is such a PITA to set up and manage. | 15:47 |
| rocky | J1m: ah i see | 15:47 |
| Theuni | srichter: i did what seemed to be _the_ way to do an official 3.3 release, so it was zpkg. | 15:47 |
| Theuni | srichter: I don't know who does the actual release packages, so I was just guessing it's you. :) | 15:47 |
| mkerrin | srichter: re 533: Just remembered, and just ran a simple test to make sure, but I fixed the issue ages ago along with some issues Rogar found. the issue just hasn't being marked has resolved:-) | 15:47 |
| J1m | rocky, agreed more or less. | 15:48 |
| Theuni | hmm | 15:48 |
| J1m | 1 should be an egg | 15:48 |
| srichter | J1m: Theuni there has been some discussion on making the Boston skin the default, because it looks nicer | 15:48 |
| Theuni | i wonder whether "Improving ZMI" (whatever this means, simplifying, bloating, nice graphics) could be a sprint topic for fall | 15:48 |
| rocky | *an* egg or *multiple* eggs? | 15:48 |
| Theuni | The DZUG has a conference in fall and we are always looking for sprint topics ... | 15:49 |
| J1m | Don't know. | 15:49 |
| J1m | If it is truly minimal, then maybe one eggs. | 15:49 |
| srichter | J1m: I also want ZMI to become minimal; from my recent project I learned that we really only needed the ZMI for checking local utility configurations and use the error utility | 15:49 |
| J1m | Then again. maybe the truly minimal Zope 3 is empty. :) | 15:49 |
| rocky | haha | 15:49 |
| rocky | well, single or multiple eggs is splitting hairs at this point i think | 15:49 |
| Theuni | srichter: I have access to a group of usability experts that work for free for open source projects. So if we are able to define what we want the ZMI to do (use cases) we would very likely come up with some change proposals. | 15:50 |
| Theuni | J1m: having those various versions requires us to communicate what the (obvious) choice for various people would be ... | 15:50 |
| J1m | I think once we become truly egg enabled and start packing the bits as eggs, we'll learn a lot. | 15:50 |
| rocky | personally i could see #1 being officially the zope3 app server egg, and when you easy_install it it downloads all of the other required zope3 libs like zope.interface, zope.schema, etc etc so that people could also install those individually as well | 15:50 |
| J1m | Theuni, yes, but I think the choices will become much cleaner. | 15:50 |
| srichter | mkerrin: thanks | 15:51 |
| Theuni | J1m: I think I'd be pretty fine with anything as long as there is one huuuuge label that says "If you don't know or don't care (yet), take this." :) | 15:51 |
| J1m | rocky, no, that would imply that it depends on all the other stuff. That would be backwards. | 15:51 |
| Theuni | And the "take this" should probably one file. | 15:51 |
| J1m | I sort of home that the main Zope 3 with all of the bells and wistles will be Plone. :) | 15:51 |
| J1m | hope | 15:52 |
| * Theuni runs | 15:52 | |
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| rocky | oh, i guess in that case that means we're getting our wires crossed as there are situations where i only want zope.interface installed (for my mod_python work) but other situations where i want the zope3 app server installed (which would also need zope.interface) | 15:52 |
| J1m | I don't think we can affort to maintain too many collections of bells and whistles. | 15:52 |
| J1m | Right. | 15:52 |
| J1m | I'm most interested in having a collection of eggs that I can mix and match in various ways. | 15:53 |
| rocky | your plone statement is quite interesting ... i could very easily spread rumours now and get the plone community all pumped up about becoming the official zope3+bells+whistles distro :) | 15:53 |
| J1m | That would be great imo. | 15:53 |
| rocky | i agree with your collection of eggs statement ... i very much want that as well | 15:54 |
| rocky | i've only really recently started to use easy_install and i've fallen in love ;) | 15:54 |
| rocky | of course my linux distro doesn't like it because i install everything into site-wide python, but oh well ;) | 15:55 |
| J1m | I kile it a lot too, although it has been a lot of work to make it do what I want, ala my buildout project. | 15:55 |
| J1m | s/kile/like | 15:55 |
| J1m | exactly | 15:55 |
| J1m | That's the problem with it. | 15:55 |
| rocky | well, i'd be curious to see if the rest of the python community sees it as a problem or just the zope community | 15:56 |
| regebro | I agree with the bell+whistles thing. Zope3 should be the application server on which you build applications. It should be unuseable by itself, and then you should have systems on top of it. | 15:56 |
| regebro | Like ECM systems. For example Plone. | 15:56 |
| J1m | Well, the most voval user of it, Ian Bicking sees it as a big problem. | 15:57 |
| J1m | vocal | 15:57 |
| rocky | right... of course in the mean time plone has to (sadly) run on the zope2 app server ... but i like the current path of zope2 and zope3 convergence (whatever that means) | 15:57 |
| regebro | It should be possible to have a script with the zope-distro that does what easy_install does, but installs it in the current site. | 15:57 |
| J1m | He has been lobbying for and tried various ways to construct development environments based on eggs. | 15:58 |
| rocky | J1m: really? i only follow ian bicking a little but i haven't seen such comments | 15:58 |
| J1m | And has had lots of frustations. | 15:58 |
| regebro | bin/eatsomeeggs. :) | 15:58 |
| J1m | rocky, read the distutils sig archives. | 15:58 |
| rocky | regebro: lol, yeah, i've been thinking about that as well | 15:58 |
| rocky | oh no, not another mailing list ;) | 15:58 |
| J1m | My buildout project is an attempt to create such an environment. | 15:58 |
| J1m | I'm pretty happy with where I've gotten so far. | 15:59 |
| J1m | My use cases are a little different frm Ians. | 15:59 |
| rocky | the problem with such an approach is that the zope community has to do yet another thing its own way (even if it is based on the python way) | 15:59 |
| * rocky wishes he could just use the python way, as-is | 15:59 | |
| J1m | The Zope community has helped define the Python way on a number of occasions. | 16:00 |
| J1m | In any case, the v=buildout project is not zope specific. | 16:00 |
| J1m | It meets an unmet need and will be distributed separately. | 16:00 |
| rocky | ah ok | 16:01 |
| J1m | I'll be presenting it in a Python, not a Zope track at EP. | 16:01 |
| * srichter will be a bit distracted for a while...soccer time ;-) | 16:01 | |
| * rocky is disappointed not to be going to EP :( | 16:01 | |
| J1m | bbl | 16:01 |
| * rocky informs srichter that distraction is not an option and his full attention must be on zope3 all day :) | 16:01 | |
| * ChrisW actually has moderate hopes for england this time round... | 16:02 | |
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| regebro | rocky: if easy_install has a parameter to say where to install it, the zope script could just call easy_install. | 16:04 |
| rocky | regebro: that wouldn't be too bad... and i do believe that easy_install has such an option ... but nouri keeps reminding me that we could just use the --mult-version stuff that setuptools already supports | 16:04 |
| rocky | so eggs would install in system wide python site-packages but you could still have multiple versions | 16:05 |
| regebro | rocky: I don't know the benefits of that, but I'm pretty sure I'd get confused. :) | 16:06 |
| rocky | benefits of that is whatever we install is still available to entire OS rather than one little zope instance | 16:06 |
| rocky | at least thats one benefit | 16:06 |
| regebro | For a good localized install, which you want to have as a developer, you really want everything in <site>/lib/python | 16:06 |
| rocky | setuptools already deals with different versions, why not piggy back off of that rather than try to resolve that by using zope instances | 16:07 |
| regebro | I think it may be a developer vs user issue. | 16:07 |
| regebro | I may need 4-5 different versions, often local ones that HAVE no real version, but are being developed by me. :) | 16:07 |
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| rocky | regebro: indeed, thats what ./setup.py develop is for :) | 16:08 |
| regebro | Right. Probably what we need is an overview over all the usecases, and how they can be solved today, | 16:08 |
| rocky | indeed | 16:08 |
| regebro | Then we need to find or make a solution that covers all, in an easy to understand way. | 16:08 |
| rocky | and preferably contribute that solution back to the python community at large of course | 16:09 |
| regebro | Absolutely. | 16:09 |
| rocky | so, like J1m is doing with his buildout thing, we build something not specific to zope, but something that does support zope's use cases | 16:10 |
| regebro | It's important that solutions either are standard in the python community, or claim to be. :) | 16:10 |
| rocky | :) | 16:10 |
| regebro | If it's not standard, it must be called "Python Standard Something Something". :) | 16:10 |
| rocky | hehe | 16:10 |
| rocky | reminds me, is setuptools gonna be distributed with py2.5 ? | 16:11 |
| regebro | The component architecture should have been called "Python Component Architecture". I tell ya, the Python people would be loving it. :) | 16:11 |
| rocky | regebro: absolutely! :) | 16:11 |
| regebro | (That's how it's done in J2EE. Their replacement to MailHost is called "Java Sendmail API" or something.) | 16:12 |
| ChrisW | anyone know where to find docs for zodb datamanagers? I'm trying to make the one in MaildropHost support savepoints | 16:13 |
| ChrisW | all a little scary :-/ | 16:13 |
| rocky | regebro: well yeah, the reason being that the company that controls java has a big stake in server-side enterprise deployments so its in their best interest to create such server standards | 16:15 |
| rocky | i always compare zope is to python as j2ee is to java ... unfortunately it breaks down when you realize there are many different implementations of j2ee and only one implementation of zope | 16:15 |
| benji | and zope doesn't suck, rocky | 16:16 |
| rocky | haha, good point benji | 16:16 |
| ChrisW | well, when zope's interfaces stabilise, you may start seeing more implementations | 16:16 |
| regebro | Ah. Yeah, you are right, that's probably the reason. Java and J2EE are the same guys, that's why the call everything "java bleh blah". | 16:16 |
| rocky | j2ee isn't so bad... its biggest weakness is java of course | 16:16 |
| * ChrisW snivvles quietly... will make Jens pay at some point... | 16:17 | |
| regebro | There are many implementations of J2EE servers, but are there really many impleme ntations of J2EE? | 16:17 |
| rocky | but i think sun has a great idea with j2ee ... having some decent standards and getting other vendors to implement them the best and most effective way they know how | 16:17 |
| regebro | That's like somebody making another server that still can publish component architecture objects, but maybe doesn't support ZPT, or broswer:* or... | 16:18 |
| mgedmin | a nice picture of j2ee call stacks: http://ptrthomas.wordpress.com/2006/06/06/java-call-stack-from-http-upto-jdbc-as-a-picture/ | 16:18 |
| rocky | regebro: an implementation of a J2EE server is by definition an implementation of J2EE (or at least a partial implementation) | 16:18 |
| regebro | OK. | 16:18 |
| mgedmin | zope still has far to go until it reaches that point | 16:18 |
| rocky | a full implementation of J2EE includes a full implementation of Java, so if you were going to *fully* implement J2ee, you'd have to provide your own java as well (ibm does this) | 16:18 |
| rocky | but most j2ee server vendors only distribute the server bits (and not java itself) | 16:19 |
| regebro | mgedmin: Well, I don't think it's even desireable. :) Unless we get so many core developers they don't knwo what to do. :) | 16:19 |
| * rocky spent 6 years developing professionally with j2ee before he struck zope | 16:19 | |
| ChrisW | but is zope closer to gold or oil in your mind? ;-) | 16:19 |
| SteveA | maybe closer to "off" | 16:20 |
| regebro | It's goil. :) | 16:20 |
| rocky | hehe | 16:20 |
| ChrisW | *grunt* | 16:20 |
| ChrisW | I refer the honourable gentlemen to my previous conundrum | 16:20 |
| ChrisW | the transaction module is pretty scary | 16:20 |
| rocky | if there was a business model around selling Zope itself, it would certainly be useful for ZC to control the Zope interfaces so that other vendors could implement their own Zope's based on those interfaces | 16:21 |
| ChrisW | from zope 3 trunk, _transaction.py: # TODO: comment out this expensive assert later | 16:21 |
| ChrisW | it's still there, and in Zope 2 as well | 16:21 |
| rocky | but as it stands the closest comparison of zope now to j2ee is to actually compare zope to jboss | 16:22 |
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| * rocky stops blabbing about java | 16:22 | |
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| * faassen sneaks in, dropping a few belated easter eggs in various corners. | 16:32 | |
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| rocky | hehe | 16:39 |
| rocky | faassen: you missed out talk of replacing egg technology with some new super zope technology *grin* | 16:39 |
| rocky | *our | 16:39 |
| J1m | rocky, zc.buildout builds on setuptools. | 16:41 |
| J1m | There is no replacement going on. | 16:41 |
| rocky | J1m: i know, i was trying to scare faassen ;) | 16:41 |
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| J1m | I've been in close contact with pje and my experiements have driven a couple of recent setuptools releases. | 16:41 |
| rocky | J1m: thats great... please don't interpret my comments as me thinking you're working against python, i was only joking for faassen's sake :) | 16:42 |
| J1m | I'll note that the Python standard library is only suitable for small scripts. | 16:42 |
| J1m | The notion that non-trivial applications can all use the same versions of modules is just missguided. | 16:43 |
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| J1m | You *need* the ability to say: "This program needs version X os package P", regardless of what other programs might needs or what's installed in the standard library. | 16:43 |
| J1m | For real programs, you want to be very explicit and non-deterministic. | 16:44 |
| J1m | That's what's behind the egglinker module in zc.buildout. | 16:44 |
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| J1m | zc.buildout is based on several years of experience with systems for creating deployments including lots of Python and non-Python applications. | 16:45 |
| faassen | I already scoped out zc.buildout. | 16:45 |
| J1m | First, based on make, and later with a Prototype Python-based buildout system. | 16:46 |
| faassen | anyway, J1m | 16:46 |
| faassen | I'm curious to find out more about zc.buildout | 16:46 |
| faassen | I looked at it earlier this week trying to figure out what I'd do with it | 16:46 |
| faassen | but I couldn't really wrap my brain around it yet. | 16:46 |
| faassen | rocky: people just like to rile me up, huh? :) | 16:47 |
| faassen | rocky: I am very amusing to try to rile up for some reason. I don't really mind. :) | 16:47 |
| J1m | so, what we do with the previous version: | 16:47 |
| faassen | J1m: anyway, for my immediate concern I'd just like eggs to work with a Zope 3 instance's lib/python | 16:47 |
| J1m | We have some application, that includes zope instances, test runners, databases, and various pther support applications. | 16:47 |
| J1m | We need to get these assembled. | 16:48 |
| regebro | OK, so first of all, rename it Python buildout, or all python people will hate it. Secondly, ....ok, there is no secondly. :) | 16:48 |
| faassen | J1m: as that's a minimal change that will make my life very happy. I can just tell people 1) install setup utils, 2) type this command (some easy_install stuff), and copy a zcml slug into etc/package-includes..done. | 16:48 |
| J1m | We model these as parts and have recipes that build the parts. | 16:48 |
| faassen | regebro: yeah, I agree with regebro on naming, it needs to be named something generic as otherwise nobody will adopt it. :) | 16:49 |
| J1m | This includes recipes for creating Zope instances. | 16:49 |
| faassen | J1m: it's definitely interesting work. | 16:49 |
| faassen | J1m: but what do you think about modifying bin/test and bin/zopectl and bin/runzope to make lib/python a site? :) | 16:50 |
| J1m | So, you'd be able to have a zope instance recipe and specify in the configuration what custom eggs it has. | 16:50 |
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| * rocky gets off the phone and reads scrollback | 16:50 | |
| J1m | faassen, I think that's a bad idea. | 16:50 |
| faassen | J1m: shit, then I can't use eggs with Zope 3.3 | 16:50 |
| J1m | Trying to emulate a the site.py madness is just a hack. | 16:50 |
| faassen | well, a hack that would make it trivial to install a complicated Zope 3 application today. | 16:51 |
| J1m | I'd rather have a generated test runner that includes the corect eggs in the path. | 16:51 |
| faassen | anyway, I guess I'll just distribute a script then that hack-patches bin/test, bin/zopectl and bin/runzope | 16:51 |
| faassen | and tell people to run that for their instance. | 16:51 |
| J1m | My goal is to have the buildout generate those scripts. | 16:52 |
| * rocky is very interested in seeing all this egg stuff work well but unfortunately doesn't know enough to contribute properly | 16:52 | |
| faassen | I know, but I just want my application to be easy to install today. | 16:52 |
| J1m | Which I am already doing. | 16:52 |
| J1m | I expect that the buildout will be usable with Zope 3 soon. | 16:52 |
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| J1m | It's just a matter of writing some more recipes. | 16:52 |
| J1m | There is already a testrunner recipe. | 16:53 |
| faassen | okay, so while I'll wait for that I'll distribute my script. | 16:53 |
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| J1m | Note that the buildout project is defined via the buildout. | 16:53 |
| rocky | faassen: we're in a similar boat with plone, we'd love to be able to distribute plone as a set of eggs today, and nouri has already experimented with that | 16:53 |
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| nouri | J1m: I'm thinking that setuptools already allows for defining a specific version X of package P to be used. | 16:55 |
| nouri | faassen: I think that your script should install something like workingenv and then users can run $INSTANCE_HOME/bin/activate and install things the easy-install-without-arguments way | 16:55 |
| nouri | just an idea though, it's maybe less impact | 16:56 |
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| faassen | nouri: it's just that I want to make it all work with the minimal amount of work. | 16:56 |
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| faassen | nouri: I'm not claiming a right solution. | 16:56 |
| faassen | nouri: I just can't afford to spend a lot of time making this work right now. | 16:56 |
| nouri | faassen: I'm saying that because I think it's less amount of work, really | 16:56 |
| nouri | and more convenient for the user, but I can see your point | 16:56 |
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| faassen | nouri: hm, it'd require me to work out how to make it work with workingenv | 16:56 |
| faassen | nouri: compared to something I got working right now. | 16:57 |
| faassen | nouri: anyway, I'm not debating that it mightn't be cleaner. | 16:57 |
| faassen | nouri: I'll take a look into it later. | 16:57 |
| * nouri nods | 16:57 | |
| nouri | cool | 16:57 |
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| J1m | I've been fooling with setuptools for months now. | 16:58 |
| J1m | The pices are there, but it's hard to make them work the way you expect. | 16:58 |
| faassen | yeah. | 16:58 |
| J1m | pieces | 16:58 |
| J1m | Nathan Yergler also beat his head against it hard. | 16:58 |
| J1m | as has Ian Bicking. | 16:59 |
| faassen | yeah. | 16:59 |
| faassen | I saw Ian's stuff. | 16:59 |
| J1m | To me the important thing to realize is: | 16:59 |
| J1m | 1. We have different use cases than easy install. | 16:59 |
| J1m | 2. We should use the lower-level APIs to get what we want. Most of them are quire reasonable. | 16:59 |
| J1m | I think its a fundamental mistake to think about an application the same way people have traditionally thought about the standard library. | 17:00 |
| faassen | J1m: how does zc.buildout compare with paste deploy stuff? | 17:00 |
| J1m | I don't think there is much overlap. | 17:01 |
| J1m | past-deploy is primarily a way to wire WSGI components together. | 17:01 |
| faassen | J1m: how are you going to market this to developers in the whole matrix thing? | 17:01 |
| faassen | J1m: of eggs, setuptools, easy install, paste deploy, etc. | 17:01 |
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| faassen | J1m: most effective would be to have it somehow be bundled with setuptools I suspect. :) | 17:02 |
| J1m | why? | 17:02 |
| faassen | because setuptools goes through a lot of work to make sure that it is easy to get installed on a system. | 17:02 |
| J1m | Isn't the whope point of eggs that you don't have to bundle things together> | 17:02 |
| faassen | true. | 17:02 |
| J1m | so does the buildout. | 17:02 |
| J1m | You can install it in 2 ways: | 17:03 |
| faassen | anyway, I'm more thinking about mindshare anyawy. | 17:03 |
| J1m | Install it using easy_setup. | 17:03 |
| rocky | J1m: thats not the "whole" point of eggs, but certainly a good point ;) | 17:03 |
| faassen | it's very likely that people will see zc.buildout, think, oh, some thing I don't care about, and move on. | 17:03 |
| faassen | even though they should be caring about it. | 17:03 |
| J1m | 2. Use it's bootstrap script, which installs it and setuptools into a working directory. | 17:04 |
| faassen | yeah, I saw the bootstrapping code. | 17:04 |
| J1m | Fine, we can market it. | 17:04 |
| J1m | I'd rather get an initial version doctested and implemented first. | 17:04 |
| J1m | The marketing campaign will begin with my talk at EP. | 17:04 |
| faassen | I was just thinking it should be associated in people's minds with eggs somehow. and cheesehops. :) | 17:04 |
| J1m | I'm happy to rename it later if people find it useful and think rebranding is important. | 17:05 |
| faassen | like, as in, "oh, this is part of that cool playground of improved installation stuff" instead of "oh, this is this alien package" | 17:05 |
| mgedmin | buy one crate of eggs, get zc.buildout for free! | 17:05 |
| J1m | In fact, once the initial version is finished, I'll turn over the marketing campaign to you guys. | 17:06 |
| * rocky wonders if that means it'll be better or worse marketing ;) | 17:06 | |
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| faassen | ... | 17:08 |
| faassen | I don't think I can do better marketing. | 17:08 |
| faassen | it's just that I think when creating a new python library intended for general use. | 17:08 |
| faassen | it's important to consider such. | 17:08 |
| faassen | especially if it's infrastructural. | 17:08 |
| * rocky thinks his question better had not be based on zope3's current track record of marketing :) | 17:08 | |
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| J1m | srichter, has the Content Component stuff been releases with Zope 3? | 17:21 |
| J1m | Does anyone else know? | 17:21 |
| faassen | I don't know. | 17:24 |
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| J1m | SteveA, ayt? | 17:32 |
| SteveA | hi J1m | 17:32 |
| J1m | Is there any chance that you'd have time to check wjther 258 has been fixed? | 17:32 |
| J1m | whether | 17:33 |
| SteveA | i'll have a look | 17:34 |
| J1m | faassen, btw wrt instances, we've found the instance home idea kind of useless for production deployments. SA's like to have files scattered all over the system and our more recent instance recipes tend to do that. :) | 17:36 |
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| J1m | dang, content components were included in 3.2. :( | 17:37 |
| SteveA | J1m: i can no longer reproduce collector 258. | 17:38 |
| J1m | Yay | 17:39 |
| SteveA | so i closed it, fixed resolved | 17:39 |
| J1m | I'll close it then. | 17:39 |
| J1m | ah cool | 17:39 |
| J1m | I'm pretty sure there are even tests for this. :) | 17:39 |
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| rocky | best practices question ... i have a view component that i need to access (need to invoke some of its methods) from a zpt, whats the easiest way to lookup that view component in the zpt? | 18:39 |
| rocky | seems like the easiest approach is to use <browser:page> to define my view and then in my zpt just do @@myview ... seems i can't do @@myview with regular <view> | 18:40 |
| mgedmin | you can do @@myview with regular <browser:view> | 18:41 |
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| rocky | really? hm... guess i'm getting <view>, <browser:view>, and <browser:page> all mixed up :( | 18:42 |
| mgedmin | AFAIU if you use <browser:view>, then random people can't access your view by adding @@myview to the URL, while if you use <browser:page>, they can | 18:42 |
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| rocky | also, <browser:view> seems to require an interface for its "for" attribute whereas <browser:page> can accept just using a class instead | 18:43 |
| rocky | at least via zope2/Five | 18:44 |
| mgedmin | I would say that's a bug | 18:44 |
| rocky | which is a bug? that it doesn't understand regular classes? or that page does support classes ? | 18:46 |
| mgedmin | either, preferably the first one | 18:47 |
| J1m | It should accept a class. | 18:48 |
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| rocky | ConfigurationError: ('Invalid value for', 'for', 'An interface is required') | 18:49 |
| faassen | it should all accept classes. | 18:49 |
| mgedmin | as far as I know zcml, this is fixable by changing the field type in the schema of that directive | 18:53 |
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| mgedmin | shouldn't IBrowserView declare that views have attributes called `context` and `request`? or is that just a convention, and not required for all views? | 19:09 |
| mgedmin | err, I meant IBrowserPage | 19:10 |
| mgedmin | I think IBrowserView already declares those | 19:10 |
| J1m | Does IBrowserPage extend IBrowserView? | 19:11 |
| faassen | gosh, how I wish I could add the addsitedir() line to various scripts in the bin directory. | 19:11 |
| faassen | just this command would then install the Document Library into Zope 3 along with about 5 or 6 dependencies | 19:11 |
| mgedmin | no | 19:11 |
| faassen | PYTHONPATH=lib/python easy_install --install-dir=lib/python DocumentLibrary | 19:11 |
| mgedmin | IBrowserView extends IView, which is deprecated, as far as I can tell | 19:11 |
| J1m | Where is IBrowserPage? | 19:12 |
| faassen | gosh, just a few lines added here and there. :) | 19:12 |
| mgedmin | zope.publisher.browser.interfaces | 19:12 |
| mgedmin | no | 19:12 |
| mgedmin | zope.publisher.interfaces.browser | 19:12 |
| mgedmin | right next to IBrowserView | 19:12 |
| mgedmin | which is not deprecated | 19:13 |
| mgedmin | but inherits IView | 19:13 |
| * mgedmin is confused | 19:13 | |
| J1m | Sigh | 19:14 |
| J1m | It would be nice to clean up IView. | 19:15 |
| J1m | I don't think IBrowserPage should define browser and request. | 19:15 |
| mgedmin | (context) | 19:15 |
| J1m | I think that was a mistake in IBrowserView. | 19:16 |
| J1m | right :) | 19:16 |
| regebro | Yeah, a small cleanup of that would be nice. And then we deprecate browser:page and stuff and use my neat solution instead. ;) | 19:16 |
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| J1m | This is really a contract between ViewPageTemplate file and the object it is bound to. | 19:16 |
| J1m | It would be nice to work on a proposal at EP. | 19:16 |
| J1m | I'll be there and available for sprinting most of Saturday and all of Sunday. | 19:17 |
| J1m | I really want to clean up these interfaces, but it's hard to contemplate small changes when larger changes are in store. :) | 19:18 |
| J1m | For now, I'd leave IBrowsePage alone. | 19:18 |
| J1m | It is OK to extend a deprecated interface as long as there is a plan to do something else when it goes away. | 19:18 |
| regebro | J1m: which saturday/sunday is that? | 19:19 |
| J1m | before ep. | 19:19 |
| J1m | The consensus seemed to be that zope sprinting would be before. | 19:20 |
| J1m | So that's what I planned on. | 19:20 |
| J1m | See the sprint wiki page. | 19:20 |
| regebro | OK. If sprinting on the views/pages happen, I will try to be online. | 19:21 |
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| Noynac | Hello, can any one help me with the IServerType interface | 21:29 |
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| J1m | who is responsible for the boston skin? | 21:43 |
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| rocky | i dunno, but whit has suggested i start either the dildo skin or virgin arm skin (the name of my home town is Virgin Arm and a town very close by is named, 'Dildo' ... no, i'm not joking) :) | 21:47 |
| J1m | :) | 21:48 |
| whit | well, it was the possiblity of having the sprint at "Dildo Run Snacks" that seemed so appealing ;) | 21:48 |
| whit | rocky's local eatery | 21:48 |
| rocky | oh right, forgot about that one | 21:48 |
| rocky | http://www.flickr.com/photos/rockyburt/sets/72057594060306157/ for pics confirming those names | 21:49 |
| rocky | newfoundland was founded by drunken sailors ;) | 21:49 |
| benji | or by people who had a hard time naming things | 21:50 |
| rocky | Virgin Arm i know has reasonable history ... it's a small peninsula (hence 'arm') and there was an abundance of uncut trees (hence 'virgin' trees) | 21:51 |
| Theuni | so a couple of sailors went out and "cut" some trees, hmm? | 21:51 |
| rocky | we also have town names like, Too Good Arm, Dark Hole, etc | 21:51 |
| rocky | but i don't have pics of those | 21:52 |
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| benji | newfoundland settler one to newfoundland settler two: what should we name this new land we just found | 21:52 |
| * rocky waits for benji's punch line | 21:53 | |
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| * whit watches joke layer upon itself | 21:53 | |
| benji | LOL! | 21:54 |
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| rocky | the name of the island that i live on (that the town of Virgin Arm is on) is called, "New World Island" ;) | 21:54 |
| Noynac | can any one help me with getting the SFTP server to start in Zope 3 | 21:55 |
| Noynac | I am getting a ComponentLookup error | 21:56 |
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| Noynac | for zope.app.twisted.interfaces.IServerType | 21:57 |
| J1m | OK, issues have been classified. There are 31 critical bugs that we need to fix befor ethe release. | 22:00 |
| benji | also, I skimmed the XXXs the other day and saw several that need to be fixed and/or discussed with the person that added them | 22:01 |
| benji | (as usual, several are also just TODOs in disguise) | 22:02 |
| J1m | sigh | 22:07 |
| benji | I had hoped to address some of them today, but have been sucked into testbrowser/mechanize bugs (that bit us on our current project) | 22:08 |
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| Theuni | J1m: how do i get a list of those 31? | 22:16 |
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| J1m | go to the collector, scroll to the bottom, select critical and bug and then submit the search button. | 22:17 |
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| Theuni | alright | 22:31 |
| Theuni | J1m: why only query for bug and not issue? | 22:35 |
| J1m | Because we only need to fix bugs to make the release. | 22:35 |
| J1m | That's what's urgent. | 22:35 |
| J1m | We'll be lucky to get the bugs fixed in a timely manner. | 22:36 |
| Theuni | Alright. So what about the issue i filed that the packaging release misses a file that stops the server from working? Should I make that a bug? Because the release is unusable without it. | 22:37 |
| Theuni | s/packaging release/packaged release/ | 22:37 |
| J1m | Yes, obviously. | 22:38 |
| Theuni | :) | 22:38 |
| Theuni | I'm sorry if I'm annoying on that. I just don't grok the process that is followed with the collector 100%ly. | 22:39 |
| Noynac | Does any one know why this error occurs zope.component.interfaces.ComponentLookupError: (<InterfaceClass zope.app.twisted.interfaces.IServerType>, 'SFTP') | 22:40 |
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| Theuni | I'll try to pick a few bugs to solve this evening instead. ;) | 22:40 |
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| mgedmin | Noynac: because the IServerType utility named SFTP is not defined in your zcml configuration | 22:42 |
| mgedmin | maybe there's some zcml package include that you need to drop into etc/package-includes | 22:42 |
| Noynac | This is the default zope 3 install I am just trying to get SFTp running .. | 22:44 |
| Noynac | When I unremm the sftp server in the zope .conf file it does this .. | 22:44 |
| Noynac | I have a zope.app.twisted... zcml in the package includes directory.. in my instance etc | 22:45 |
| Noynac | Is that the zcml file you are talking about .. | 22:45 |
| Noynac | ? | 22:46 |
| mgedmin | I've never used the SFTP server, sorry | 22:49 |
| pcardune | benji: I checked out your Zope3 Quick Start Guide. It looks very good. The only problem is that the README.txt file in the svn repository does not give any instructions for making a zope instance (as it says in your tut). | 22:55 |
| benji | thanks, pcardune, I'll look into it | 22:55 |
| pcardune | thanks | 22:56 |
| J1m | Theuni, are you the one making releases these days? | 23:02 |
| Theuni | hell no ... :) | 23:02 |
| * Theuni runs | 23:03 | |
| J1m | Then I wonder why all the questions about making them. :) | 23:03 |
| J1m | Whoever made the windows release didn't use the correct release area, | 23:03 |
| * benji recalls Theuni volunteering | 23:03 | |
| J1m | I really don't mind making them. | 23:03 |
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| J1m | Oh, I take that back | 23:04 |
| J1m | never mind | 23:04 |
| J1m | the windows release did have bat files. | 23:04 |
| J1m | Stupid new indows install doesn't show me extensions. | 23:04 |
| Theuni | The package-making-process doesn't seem that bad, but my intention was merely to verify whether the problem I had with beta1 is out of the current build. Which it is, and then I found the next problem in the package. ;) | 23:04 |
| mgedmin | I think mechanize is complaining about <select> it finds inside a /* */ comment inside a <script> element | 23:04 |
| * benji screams | 23:05 | |
| * Theuni scares benji | 23:05 | |
| benji | mechanize has ruined my day | 23:05 |
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| mgedmin | yup, that's it | 23:06 |
| mgedmin | what does it use for parsing html? regexes? | 23:06 |
| whit | nice....glad to see mechanize still makes the kids happy | 23:06 |
| benji | you would think so, mgedmin, but no | 23:06 |
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| baldtrol | hi all... this might be better asked in an email, but i'll pitch the short version here ;) | 23:24 |
| baldtrol | i have a particular form.EditForm that overrides the local context in order to pull in the right values for a content object (i want to be able to edit resource without actually traversing to it's location). i can get the data correctly, but when i attempt to post back, the original request params that determined the context aren't there anymore. in other frameworks, i just build in hidden fields that capture the original request data... | 23:25 |
| J1m | Theuni, what was missing from the release? | 23:26 |
| baldtrol | is there a way to do that with formlib? create a dynamic hidden field that captures request params? | 23:26 |
| J1m | test.py? | 23:26 |
| J1m | :) | 23:26 |
| Theuni | J1m: zope.app.cache.caching. Ended up as an empty file. See issue 649 | 23:26 |
| J1m | test.py is also missing. | 23:27 |
| J1m | so whoever made the release didn't try to test it. | 23:27 |
| Theuni | Yepp/ | 23:27 |
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| J1m | sigh | 23:28 |
| avoine | i try to make the some product with the The Zope 3 Developers Book but i got many DeprecationWarning the book its outdated? do you know where to find some book or tutorial up-to-date? | 23:28 |
| Theuni | There are a couple of things where our 3.2 application's functional tests break, but the app itself seems to work in 3.3. | 23:28 |
| avoine | ok | 23:29 |
| baldtrol | avoine: most of the deprecations are simple enough to trace to the new libraries... anything in particular that's breaking? | 23:30 |
| mgedmin | baldtrol: you can do everything with formlib that you can do without it | 23:30 |
| mgedmin | baldtrol: override the template, use the macros from the default one, fill in some slot with as many <input type="hidden" /> elements as you desire | 23:30 |
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| baldtrol | mgedmin: that's a good idea (surprise surprise)... something like <input type="hidden" tal:attributes="value view/somethingfromrequest" /> | 23:32 |
| baldtrol | ? | 23:32 |
| Theuni | hmm. avoine i'm sorry. i didn't answer your questions, i was just hinting j1m to my effort of trying out the compatibility of zope 3.3 to 3.2. | 23:32 |
| mgedmin | baldtrol: yes -- well, if you want something from the request, you probably want "value request/something|nothing" | 23:32 |
| baldtrol | mgedmin: certainly, i just meant "somevalue if i did some preprocessing from the request" etc instead of putting the request value in explicitly. i assume then that if i override applyChanges and rebuild my context back from the posted hiddens, that should just work. or it seems like it will. | 23:34 |
| baldtrol | i'll give it a shot when i get back where i have access to that code. thanks :D | 23:36 |
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| J1m | The ZEO tests are insane | 23:52 |
| Theuni | jupp | 23:53 |
| Theuni | Which kind of insanity do you refer to right now? :) | 23:54 |
| J1m | Well tests fail intermittently. | 23:54 |
| J1m | I wonder if someone can run then and not get errors. | 23:54 |
| Theuni | which ones, zodb 3.7 ? | 23:54 |
| Theuni | I'm fairly sure they passed on my machine recently | 23:55 |
| Theuni | (For certain values of recently) | 23:55 |
| J1m | whatever was in Zope 3.2.1. | 23:55 |
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| J1m | I think we should change make check in the release to not run the zeo tests. | 23:55 |
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| J1m | I just ran them on my mac and on my linux box and some tests failed on each. | 23:57 |
| J1m | Not the same ones of course. | 23:57 |
| Theuni | sounds like the timing things | 23:57 |
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| J1m | Oh yeah | 23:57 |
| Theuni | i'm running them over here too | 23:58 |
| J1m | The whole ZEO test suite is a big timing thing. | 23:58 |
| * mgedmin once committed a doctest that ran a unit test suite and compared its output with "Ran 7 tests in 0.003s" | 23:59 | |
| J1m | and of course the tests never say what they are testing. | 23:59 |
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| Theuni | heh. i know of a couple of tests that can not be run on full hours ;) | 23:59 |
| J1m | Although on the mac, the same 3 tests seem to be failing every time. | 23:59 |
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